does anyone know if someone has put Twin Turbos on an NA FJ20.
I'm thinking put two R33 t25's on my NA FJ all advise and help would be greatly apprietated

Deza

I rekon its worth a try, FJ are known for a fairly high exhaust gas flow stock and ive seen twin turbs on a CA 18 before so i rekon its worth a go, definately, should be easy enough to setup, custom manifolds should be easy enough..

Gareth

Hi,

I looked into twin turboing an FJ that used to be in my 1600. It was possible but i went against it because why go for something 10 times more complex when you can have the same or better result with one turbo. Think complexity of manifold around which water lines, oil lines and dumppipes have to be integrated. Its possible but complex and time-consuming if you want to take it apart.

If you do the work yourself, its OK, otherwise itll be a very expensive process.

I think get yourself a stock FJ20ET ex manifold, bolt on one r33 turbo and see if you like it. You can easily get 200rwkw which is very fast. You put two 33 turbos onto it and you have a power potential of 350-400rwkW...Power is inversely proportional to lag so take this into consideration.

If you do twin turbo it, let us know how it goes and post up working progress. Id love to see one around and plus, the NA FJ20 rocks. Put the ET cam gears in them and use good valve springs and you have the same power as an ET.

Cheers

Whats the diff between the ET cam gears and the NA? I assume that you are talking about the stock ones?

In sumary, ET cam gears retard all events by 7 degrees. There are no differences between the cams themselves (NA vs ET). I got an 15rwhp at 19psi but lost 500rpm bottom end which i gained on top end

NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA
Inlet: Duration 256 degrees
8.85mm lift
Opens 23 degrees BTDC
Full lift 105 degrees ATDC

Exhaust: Duration 256 degrees
8.85mm lift
Closes 11 degrees ATDC
Full lift 117 degrees BTDC

Overlap on intake stroke is 34 degrees

TURBO TURBO TURBO TURBO TURBO TURBO TURBO TURBO TURBO
Inlet: Duration 256 degrees
8.85mm lift
Opens 16 degrees BTDC
Full lift 112 degrees ATDC

Exhaust: Duration 256 degrees
8.85mm lift
Closes 18 degrees ATDC
Full lift 110 degrees BTDC

Overlap on intake stroke is 34 degrees

Turbo vs NA

In: 16-23 = -7 degrees
Ex: 110-117 = -7 degrees

Valve timing events occur 7 degrees later in turbo engine favouring top end power.

For the above post, i lost 250rpm drivabilty, not even, not 500rpm as mentioned

Thanks for the Info French Weapon will definatly take it on board. Will look into get cam gears and manifold as you mentioned. What cams would you recommend to use? How different are NA v ET Heads? I know the ET blocks have more OIL Squirters directed at the Crank any other differences.

Deza

No probs.

As for cams...the std cams have been trialed and proven many times. I wouldnt change em. Gareth from these forums has standard cams, makes peak power at 6250rpm which continues flat all the way to 7500rpm and maybe more since he revs limits his engine to 7500rpm. Keep the stockos.

There are no differences at all between NA and ET heads.

The only difference in the block is oil supply for the turbo and oil squiters to cool pistons...but you can easily modify your block to do this. Afterall, mark ashford uses a NA block in his race car which makes something like 555rwkW.

The oil pump is smaller in the NA but hasnt caused me any problems.

The rods are apparently not as thick so suppose arent as strong as ET ones but I havent had any probs.

For street, you will max out pump fuel before you bust an NA FJ20 with a turbo hanging of the side of it. Thats enough power for most people.

The key to success:

Efficient turbo
Intercooler (large)
ET cam gears or Mark Ashford adjustable ones (the latter ones are really good)
Valve springs 60-70lbs tension.
Good tuner

After that for reliability, maybe fit an oil cooler and if you want oil squirters.

Go the NA FJ20!!!!

Can't see the point in converting a NA to turbo when there are plenty of cheap turbo engines around. Besides the smaller oil pump, the NA crank is different, not sure about the rods.

With a hi-po turbo engine you will need an oil cooler, all this requires more oil flow. Why take risks with such a basic requirement that are not necessary?

whats different between a turbo and na crank? i thought they were identical?

Re the crank, I had the chance to buy some NA engine stuff cheap. The NA crank looked ok for wear so I took it home and compared it with the spare turbo crank I had.

Difference in the counter weights. The turbo is what I'd call a fully counterweighted crank, the NA not. This was a few years ago, before I had a digital camera so no pics.

But this was only one motor, Nissan may have interchanged stuff like they sometimes do or even superseded the NA crank. I could ID it from a pic though, the difference was obvious.

[quote="FRENCHWEAPON"]I think get yourself a stock FJ20ET ex manifold, bolt on one r33 turbo and see if you like it. You can easily get 200rwkw which is very fast. You put two 33 turbos onto it and you have a power potential of 350-400rwkW...Power is inversely proportional to lag so take this into consideration.[/quote]

Do mean HP or KW? 400rwkw = 656rwhp.


Deza

TT why bother , RB26's are very crowded on the exhaust side of the head . Four cylinders dont have a suitable firing order for twin parallel turbos and there are obvious weight and cost penalties . Two turbos dont necessarily make double the grunt , remember each only has half the available heat/exhaust energy to drive them and fours have power strokes further apart .
Your call .

Hi,

QUOTE "Can't see the point in converting a NA to turbo when there are plenty of cheap turbo engines around. Besides the smaller oil pump, the NA crank is different, not sure about the rods." QUOTE

Yes very valid point. I would definately recommend finding an ET first if you can for the right price...

BUT, like I said before, you will easily max out pump fuel with an NA engine which is close to 330rwhp for NA and in most people's language, thats a very fast car. So if you already have an NA in your hands or can get one for chips, it can make sense to stick to it. I am not at all saying the NA is better, cause that certainly isnt the case, but really, if youre after serious power, it doesnt make any difference if you start of with the ET or the NA, proof of this is Mark ashfords FJ20 which is NA.


QUOTE "With a hi-po turbo engine you will need an oil cooler, all this requires more oil flow. Why take risks with such a basic requirement that are not necessary?" QUOTE

Again true, I will be running an oil cooler when I come back. Ill let you know if there are oil delivery problems. As for now, oil flow is ample!!

As for the crank, mine looks fully coutnerweighted to me and looks identical to the ET crank. But i cant say I compared properly, but again, im sure theres no difference here. Nissan wouldnt bust their balls to make two different cranks when it would cost more money to do so and get the same result. Look at the SR cranks, no difference bt the NA and DET.


[quote="FRENCHWEAPON"]I think get yourself a stock FJ20ET ex manifold, bolt on one r33 turbo and see if you like it. You can easily get 200rwkw which is very fast. You put two 33 turbos onto it and you have a power potential of 350-400rwkW...Power is inversely proportional to lag so take this into consideration.[/quote]

Do mean HP or KW? 400rwkw = 656rwhp.

Yes. I do mean this figure. But youd be hard pressed to get it on your FJ20 unless you modify well and use race fuel.

QUOTE "TT why bother , RB26's are very crowded on the exhaust side of the head . Four cylinders dont have a suitable firing order for twin parallel turbos and there are obvious weight and cost penalties . Two turbos dont necessarily make double the grunt , remember each only has half the available heat/exhaust energy to drive them and fours have power strokes further apart .
Your call ." QUOTE


Couldnt have put it better. Im for single all the way even on GTRs and supras. Theory supports twins could be better, but practice says another providing you have a long equal length manifold. Dont ask me me why here, find my posts on SAU.

Cheers

Quoting the Ashford's engine as being originally a NA is pointless. For a start the block will be grouted and it probably has a dry sump lubrication system with different oil pumps.

Anyway, people will do what they want to do, its just that in my experience there is no point in going for a lower spec part or system when the cost difference is bugger all, particularly when a basic requirement such as lubrication is involved.

QUOTE "Quoting the Ashford's engine as being originally a NA is pointless. For a start the block will be grouted and it probably has a dry sump lubrication system with different oil pumps." QUOTE

Thats just it, read what I said, if you wanting a hyper engine, it doesnt matter what engine you start of with, so quoting mark ashfords engine is far from pointless, infact couldnt be more pertanent to this thread. Whether you grout an NA block or ET block makes no difference. Whether you fit a high-volume dry sump system to NA or ET makes no difference. If it did, mark would have used an ET to begin with. No argument here.

260DET, what you dont realise is that I agree with you. It makes sense to get an ET, it is a more complete engine that the NA, but thats all it is, just more complete. My two main points of arguments are 1) price and 2)power. Reagrding price, some NAs can be had so cheap its not funny, and in this case the NA makes sense. Regarding power, you will easily MAX out pump fuel on an NA engine which like I have said over and over, is more than enough power for most people. If you choose to run pump, then power difference between NA and ET will be no different.

As for if I would choose an NA over an ET, no way. I have an NA because I wanted to test it limits for interest's sake. But has it let me down with reliability issues?? No. Is the ET more reliable...it would seem so, but no one has ever proven it, that I have seen. This is where my NA comes in and gareths ET comes in. We are doing the exact same mods to out engines. Tile will tell the truth.

Fact 1) BB turbos have MUCH lower turbo oil requirments .
Fact 2) Oil coolers don't require any changes to the oil pump . Either
E or ET pump will have problems IF there is resistance to oil flow
but that is the builders stuff up not the pump or cooler . Good
synthetic oils can help here . Lubrication systems have to work but
excess volume and pressure does nothing positive .

Quote"find my posts on SAU."Quote

Is that SkylinesAustralia? Could not find them what is your callsign on SAU?


Deza

My name on skylines australia is 180bfj20det.

You may have problems finding it since SAU did renew their site and a lot of info was lost. Tell me if you cant.

Seb

I quote myself: I said FJs have oil squiters...sorry no FJs do. Sorry for the misinfo, I have been dealing too much with CAs and SRs lately.

Another "no diff" bt NA and ET.

I just wanted to post this pics of some twin turbos

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

I went looking for that web site last night. I was going to post the same pics but I could not find the web site again. These pics ^ ^ ^ are from a Shop in Japan that sell that twin turbo set up off the shelf to suit DR30 Skyline. Note the waste gate is behind the rocker cover.
To any one that is going to try this. A twin turbo set up on a FJ20 will never work as well as a properly set up single turbo. This is not a challenge for some one to try and prove me wrong. It is a fact.

There are no advantages from having twin turbos on an engine where one turbo will do the job. Twin turbos are only really needed on large capacity engines where one turbo will not have enough flow or V and Flat type engines where single turbo manifolds are not practical.

A basic rule I set for my self is if it is not over 3000cc and does not have 6 or more cylinders. It does not need twin turbos.
Obviously there are exceptions to this on extremely high revving engines.
Example: A fully built RB26 revving to 10500rpm could go ether way, single or twin.

See Ricky, you should have given me that website address! I wouldn't have lost it. LOL Can someone please give me that address?

Very expensive complex and heavy way of getting where a properly sized single could get you . Note the manifold pipe size and the size of those turbine housings - nuckle heads . Also note the dodgy inlet manifold with the even more dodgy fuel lines to the injectors . A little smoothing on the early DR manifold could do better than that . A std DR exhaust manifold with a suitably sized turbo and fabricated external gate mount is far better and easier . Thats a "Sick Mate" special , you'd feel very sick if you paid for it and drove it ...

DPO3 .

LOL, Aaron, I didn’t mean to lose it; my browser crashed and lost all my bookmarks.

I’ll sell you some cheap neon’s to keep you happy. LOL.

Ps: Hurry up and get that Hillman going.
Hmm, you might need a peace of your plumbing back for that. LOL.

What is it with this twin turbo thing lately? Just recently there have been a few comments/questions about TT's on a couple of Yank forums, before that TT's were never mentioned.

There has to be a reason for it, WTF is it? Video game?

Well Ricky, if you stopped playing with stingrays for a second and came and helped me it might get done alot faster! LOL!!!!

So what's that website address?

260det QUOTE "What is it with this twin turbo thing lately? Just recently there have been a few comments/questions about TT's on a couple of Yank forums, before that TT's were never mentioned.

There has to be a reason for it, WTF is it? Video game?" QUOTE

Well this my reason. (Can't speek for the rest)

The daily driver 180B Wagon FJ20e

The Turbos are FREE from a R32 or R33 Skyline? (Sorry no pics)
Tag # Garrett WD 0931J 14411-05U21 466071-3 Assume they are T25.

So I figured why not give it ago!!!

Fair enough Deza, ++++ of an idea but we all have to do what we all have to do Make sure you tell us how its turns out, with pics.

32 or 33 turbos are T03 turbos and the 33s are ball bearing and you will get 200rwkw from one. Not T25s.

Heres what T3 and T4 flanges look like:



Heres a T25



And for a comparison from the same site a T3



Hope you can see the diference. The T3 is wider.

Good luck with the project

Actually they are Hitachi NOT Garrett , only the exhaust housing mount flange is T3 style . Some of their parts can be machined to suit Garretts but why bother , not a fantastic thing on an R33 .

There ya go, hitachi. Brand aside, it has a T3 flange, and a much better turbo than the stock T03.

I've taken the to Speedworks and Hyperdrive who both claim there are T28's with ceramic wheels and won't handle 14+ psi.
It has been reconmended that I sell them and gt35 series turbo.

Deza

GT35 = surge (maybe) lag lag lag lag lag VE drops then boost...get a turbo thatll make power in the sweet spot of the fj curve or youre wasting your time.

My recommendation is the GT3071R externally gated version. Full boost at 3-3.5k (1000rpm ealier than a GT3076) and you can still make 350rwhp easy. Thats what Im gonna do (downgrade from GT3076R).

Ofcourse if ashford builds you engine...then a GT35 is the go!!!

Good luck

Seb

Martin, do you have the website for that twin turbo engine?

Cheers

Dose anyone know of this website it would great!!!!!!!!!

If i could just bye a Manifold it would be the go

Deza

Speak to Ricky from these forums. He'll make ya one easily and of good quality too.

If not you can get into it yourself. Making a twin turbo manifold for a 4 is acutally quite easy as you have two easy collectors to make...like making two rotary manifolds really.

Good luck :p