Getting ready for the new AFV Club Centurion that Santa is bringing me.
Looking for more information about the top picture “Centurion Mk 11 during maneuvers in the rain….” on page 18 of Don Dingwall’s “The Centurion In Canadian Service” Service Publications, 2005.
Three quarters view of Two-One-Charlie .
This Mk. 11 has a light coloured call sign under the turret storage bins, steel track, the underside of it’s 105 fume extractor is painted white, and has no APC machine gun mount.
Might be Strathcona cap badges on the crew’s berets, looks like it may be the last three-colour camouflage NATO scheme, and looks like it may still have C42 AMUs.
I would like to know what year this is, what type of radios and if it is indeed,the Black, Khaki Drab and Green cam.
I don't have that publication...can you scan it and post it or e-mail me the image and I can likely help you out more with your questions.
Generally from the images I have seen of Canadian Centurions if the older C42 AMUs are mounted the tank will be painted in the four colour camouflage pattern. The later AMUs started showing up around 1967 still on the four colour camouflaged Centurions and then later when they were repainted three colours.
I have also only seen the call signs under the turret bins on the four colour camouflaged Cents. The three colour patterned tanks either had the call signs in black on the side skirts or just on a sign board on the turret bustle bin mesh. I have recently discovered that the call sign colour on the four coloured Centurions is actually yellow and not white as supplied on the Quartermaster's Depot decals.
There are also variations of the four colour camouflage with the tan being replaced with another shade of green...making a four colour camouflage of two greens, brown, and grey.
Another clue to the timeline...the Strathconas never crewed the three coloured Cents. They rotated back to Canada and the RCD replaced them...the tanks then went through rebuild in 1970 and were repainted in the three colour cam pattern.
Only the four coloured Cents had white on the bottom of the fume extractor...not the three colour.
I compared the pattern along the left side skirt with Barry Beldam's NATO and Canadian Four Colour Patterns on Armoured Acorn and it does seem to be the four colour pattern. Drat.
I personally like the look of the NATO pattern better but I'm trying to avoid Hush Puppy tracks, and the APC machine gun mount. ( I don't like resin tracks and I don't want to buy a whole M113 just for the mount.)
The search continues.
The rest of your info is good stuff to know.
Don Dingwall's book is a nice little addition to the library and, I find, actually more useful than Barry Beldam's "The Serious Modeller's Guide to Canadian Centurion Gun Tanks" when it comes to the history of the Canadian Centurions.
I think Jason is dead right about the time frame, it must be a four colour and you can see the C42 amu just to the right of the fume extractor. I think the four colour looks excellent as proven by Jason and his inspiring Cent build. As for the .50 mount I think someone would probably have one in the spares box or it would be real easy to scratch. But to each his own. I also think Dons book is excellent, I paid $9 for it and for the price one can't go wrong. I find the whole series great as you get enough to start planning and building for less than the price of a model mag.
...... I concur. It is the Canadian Pattern Four Colour Centurion Camouflage and the Service Publications are great.
I saw your Canadian M113 over on Maple Leaf Models (very nice) and I was wondering what paints you used for the cam? My experience has been that with very little time in the field the Khaki Drab and Green blend together so much that you can't see the difference between the two. (It stands out quite nicely at the wash rack though.)
Is it me or is the Khaki Drab you used on your 113 more brown than green (or maybe that's just the way my monitor displays it)?
This Centurion will be the first modern Canadian vehicle that I've ever done and I have been looking around for solutions for the paint. So far I've come up with the following;
(FS numbers are from Barry Beldam's "The Serious Modeler's Guide to Canadian Centurion Gun Tanks" and the Humbrol mixes are from the IPMS Stockholm web site.)
FS 36081 Black - Gunship Dark Grey; Humbrol 32 (Dark Grey)
FS 34098 Khaki Drab - Bamboo; 12 parts Humbrol 150 (Forest Green), 1 part Humbrol 155 (Olive Drab) & 1 part Humbrol 154 (Insignia Yellow)
FS 34172 Green - Dark Sea Green; 4 parts Humbrol 120 (Israeli Light Green), 3 parts Humbrol 76 (Uniform Green) & 2 parts Humbrol 78 (Cockpit Green)
Ironically enough on Tuesday my copy of the Cent and the Leo books arrived.
Have read both. not bad books.
Going to have to ask my father in law about the little incident at Gagetown with the first Leo at Gagetown on Parade. Figured out with my wife and her photos he was one of the Centurion Crews that day as part of the 8th Hussars. From there he went to Germany for the RCD, then to St. Thomas with the Elgins.
I was really shocked at how bad the Cents got, he told me stories of things falling apart as you drove them.
I am not one for multi colour mixing of paints as I tend to screw them up. I used Model Master acryl Black and Olive Drab and the I used one of there enamels. The one I used escapes me right now and I will have to drag it out tonight. The Olive Drab looks a little brown from pigments and weathering. If I was to do it again I would use Tamiya Nato Black, Model Master Olive Drab, and there is a Tamiya green that I was going to try to add some yellow green to see if it matches. I had all kinds of problems with the enamel last time and basically painted on 4 heavy coats ( Orange peel like crazy ) then I wet sanded that colour until it looked decent. In seeing your colour combinations I will be interested if you try them and they work out.
I hear what you are saying about mixing your own paint.
I plan on using IPMS Stockholm’s mixes only as a guideline. I will use Humbrol paints because I’ve got a whole wack of them already. I will be happy if I can, consistently, get the same near-enough match. I figure that I will get something that is close and then weather the whole vehicle until the difference between the greens is very faint.
If the shades are off, I will blame the sun, German dust and the Liberal Party’s paint procurement policies.......
Thanks for the e-mail and reposting it here...I have been busy all day and didn't have a chance to respond to some of your questions.
First, I think you have answered it yourself....when the Cents went through rebuild and the three colour camouflage was applied the tanks went through a transition period changing the metal track to the Hush Puppy tracks....as seen in the image you posted.
Second, the photo states that a MILES blank firing simulator is attached...it is called a Hoffman device...MILES gear wasn't invented at the time of the photo.
The AMUs are actually U.S. not Canadian.
It appears the .50 Cal mount was removed by the crews on some tanks....I agree that you should just ask for one here or on Missing Lynx from someone's spare parts box if you want one to mount....just remember if you mount a .50 Cal that the .50 had the same type of AA ring sight as mounted on the Lynx .50 Cal mount.
The call signs on the side skirts in the image are likely applied in chalk for exercise purposes...too thin to be painted on with standard stencils.
I agree that this second image has the tank in the three colour cam....it would be early RCD deployment..1970-1971.
The headlights and guards are the standard ones for Mk.11 versions....the Centurion in the image is actually a Mk.11LR as it has the long range 100 gallon external fuel tank.
Pretty standard stowage showing too with the cam net on the forward turret, and tarps and the tank bivi tent attached to the turret stowage boxes.
Note that most of the canvas barrel jackets on the 105mm were removed when the tanks went through rebuild as they were too worn out to be salvaged.
Progress is being made but I’ve still looking for some details. Specifically;
How spare road wheels were secured on top of the external fuel tank when they were carried.
A source for American AMUs? (I don’t believe that Maple Leaf Models is up and running yet…)
Aside from call signs on the side skirts and rear turret and a small red and white flag on the right fender, any other markings the RCDs might have used?
RCD kit stowage SOPs for the turret rear basket (if any).
The spare roadwheels were carried on both the 100 gallon tank and on the top rear of the turret. They were simply mounted by a nut an bolt assembly that was welded to the turret roof and the 100 gallon tank. I should be able to dig up an umage of the mounting locations.
For AMUs...Verlinden made a set a long time ago that you can sometimes find on eBay or just wait a month or so and MLM should be able to help you out.
As far as markings there may or may not be call signs on the side skirts. I have actually seen a Mk.11 in three colour cam with the call signs in black numbers and letters under the turret bins like on the four colour camouflage pattern. The rear call sign board with black call signs seems pretty standard.
On the center of the hull stowage bins on each side there should be the vehicle CFR(Canadian Forces Registration) number in black.
I have seen the red/white Canadian flags on the right front fender or on both front fenders.
For the turret basket the crew would not likely have a stowage SOP. The bin appears to be have been filled with a variety of things...some cam nets, water containers of various types, and cardboard ration boxes. Most images I have seen show that the crew has used the vehicle tarp to cover most if not all of the kit. The tarp is jammed in to all the inside frame to keep everything secure and out of the elements and is forming a bulge over the top of the stowage bin.
Since it appears there are some knowledgable Centurion types here, approximately what time frame did 105mm guns start appearing on the German based Cents? My Canadian Cent reference material is lacking...
The 105mm started being mounted on the Centurions in Germany around 1961....they were re-barreled back to the 20 Pounders during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 because of a short supply of 105mm ammo and then back to the 105mm after everything calmed down.
There were very few 105mm guns mounted on Centurions in Canada...mainly Germany.
That being said, I have seen images of Centurion Squadrons in Germany in 1965 still with a mix of 105mm and 20 Pounder 'B' Type barrels.
The L7's were often dismounted and the 20 pounder mounted instead for activities such as driver training, etc so it quite possible to have seen a mixture of barrels whilst not out 'on scheme'.
Me...Maint Troop, C Sqn, LdSH(RC)/RCD '68-'70 Iserlohn, Germany
If you have any images of the Strathcona Centurions in Germany during your time please post them....they would be great to see as they are fairly rare.
If you’re looking for more Canadian Centurion information, then I whole heartily recommend Don Dingwall’s “The Centurion In Canadian Service”.
As Mark mentioned, the price is right, its packed with all sorts of interesting little tidbits and I don’t believe that you’ll be disappointed. Check it out.
Reason why I was wondering, friend of a friend might want to build a model for him, circa 1962 Fort Garry Horse? He said they had recently been upgunned with 105's.
The FGH rotated to Germany in November 1962 so the timeline should be correct for a 105mm.
Images that I have seen around circa 1962-1965 show the Centurions in Germany with the initial mounting of the 105mm in the four colour camouflage,(tan, green, brown, and grey) and with the 100 gallon external fuel tank.
They do not have the Mk.11 upgrades such as the turret bin or the late style dual headlights and guards.
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