Hi Gang



Here are a few teaser photos of the 15 Dutch Leo 2A4's that were bought for upgrade/spare parts when they arrived a few months ago off the ship with spare parts:








Uploaded at photobucket.com , search for albums by ldshrecceboy you will find some more......................


Cheers



Anthony





"Gone toe to toe with the Taliban, and won."

It is good to see some of them on their new home soil.

It will be interesing to see how they progress into the Canadian Leopard 2A4+ version.

Thanks for posting the images.

Is that ARV next to the tanks a new purchase too? If it is, I wonder if they got any more Badgers- those things are better than tanks.

Just a workshop Leo Arv to pull any dead-heads.

More than likely some of the Leopard 2A4 gun tanks will be converted into a Leopard 2 based AEV...probably very similar to the Swiss Kodiak AEV-3.

It would make sense to have something similar to the Badger or the Swiss Kodiak. I noticed the British are acquiring a similar vehicle with a backhoe type excavator on it as well a dozer blade that can be exchanged for a mine plow. I work in construction and operated excavators for nearly ten years and there is no machine out there that is more versatile. I would imagine the small Badger fleet we have is getting on in the years and especially after having spent a lot of time in the former Yugoslavia and now in Afghanistan. Excavator hydraulics are extremely complicated and run at very high pressure so its often cheaper to replace a machine than to overhaul it. Plus the technology has advanced in leaps and bounds so controllability and efficiency has gotten a lot better.

Very nice to see them on Canadian Soil.

I am off to the Corps Conference in two weeks so I hope to hear what is going on with them then.

Cam

Thanks for the pics, Anthony. It will be interesting to see how these will be modified - if they will retain any Dutch mods (ie: SGL's, etc), be converted back to German standards and further modified for Cdn use, etc.

I can't see them retaining the Dutch grenade dischargers with all other CF AFVs using the 76 mm Wegmanns.

I am not sure which production batch the Dutch 2A4s came from but they look to be from one of the earlier batches.....you can see where the loading ports on the left side of the turrets have been welded shut and they all have the original version of the sideskirts.

Agreed - why introduce another system into the supply chain when we're now at the point where literally all Cdn vehs are using 76mm Wegmann dischargers.

These tanks look like a hodgepodge of parts, based on the different colours, etc - Perhaps the Dutch cobbled these together from parts, both old and new?

Ironic that now that we're finally getting Leopard 2 tanks, we're buying used tanks that the Dutch ordered in 1979... not long after we took possession of our Leopard C1's.

"Sarcasm is just one more service we offer free of charge"

Do we actually use, as in use-use, these? Have any been used in AFG? I've only ever seen the SGL's fired twice in 22 years.

GD

I've never once seen the smoke grenade launchers used, nor have I heard of them being used operationally. I've only ever seen them negligently discharged!- not my me mind you.

The last time I fired them on the range, the boxes were marked 1987, and were made in a country called West Germany. Only 5 of the 8 actually worked.

apparently there are HE 76mm grenades- now those might be useful.

For sure they have been used on the Leopards in Afghanistan.

I don't want to go into tactics or SOPs....but they have been used.

In regards to the 76 mm HE grenades....yup, for sure they exist...I have seen them....this is not a grenade you want to launch without thinking about the consequences.....the shrapnel wreaks havoc....not only on the enemy but all the friendlies and friendly equipment within range....such as tank optics.

...

I had to use mine on my Panzer in the sandbox on June 13, 2007 the day I had to pull the ALAMO.All eight fired and that was the best screen I had ever seen.All our gun camps in Wainwright for a gunners course got to see the "Smoke Demo"..........

Hey guys,

Still sad to see those puppies go; my old one might actually be on Canadian soil now (National Service 92/3).

IIRC they're all Batch 4 vehicles. As to the different shades of green, replacement parts always seemed to look much greener (olive-green vs. olive-drab, more or less) than what was already on the tank, and no two tanks looked the same, even in shade of original OD.

Cheers,

Olaf

have these 2A4's had ANY work done on them at 202 Wksp? I seem to recall LGen Leslie putting a bit of stick about on how these leos are sitting idle.

Anyone got int?

We keeping the Dutch SGL?

Have they been re-gunned with the 55 calibre barrels?

GD

I am not sure if work has been started but from what I have heard, they need it to be done quick. They are looking a rotating out the German Leo 2's due to wear and tear and they need these finished in order to do it. This is planned for next year.

I can't see the gun being changed. That would cost a few bucks. most all, if not all NATO Leopards are the L44.

Not all NATO Leopards use the L44.

The L55 is used by:

Canada 2A6M
Germany 2A6
Dutch 2A6NL
Greece 2A6HEL
Spain 2A6+ (2E)

At this point I can't see the 2A4+s upgraded with the L55 either. The benefits of the L55 and the new tank ammunition are enormous but the L44 still has plenty of punch.

Has the allocation & plans below been offcially changed?:

100 x Leopards

-20 x 2A6NL to be converted to GE specs and returned to GE in exchange for the loaners
-40 x 2A4 still in NL waiting to be shipped to CA
-40 x 2A4 at 202 Wksp

Of the 80 that will be in Canada:
-20 2A4 converted to 2A6M Cdn
-20 designated trainers upgunned with L55, but no extra armour. To be designated 2A4+.
-20 'remain' as 2A4 (although we are not sure if SGL extra will change?)
-8 converted to ARV (Bergepanzer 3, or perhaps we'll call them Taurus C2?)
-12 2A4 used for 'spares'

-No idea what will happen to the existing 2A6M CDN already in AFG. Granted they will have seen several years of combat by the time they are repatted, but this is Canada, and I am sure we'll find a use for them.

My info could be way out of date.





GD

Yup, the L55 was part of the original upgrade for the 2A4+ but it looks like....from good sources....that the plan and upgrades have been scaled back due to funding.

I would expect the 2A6Ms.....whenever they do finally come back from Afghanistan....2011+?....will have some heavy work done to them to "de-combat" them....remove the slat armour and Barracuda and whatever else is can be stored.

I would think that the Wegmann MBGDs will be standard...an easy modification.

Time will tell what the final result will be....right now the tanks crews are focused on what they have (and very happy) and not too concerned about what they will get.

...the money pool that is. Don't expect any major modifications on the 2A4s.

What was planned for the 2A4s in respect to upgrades and modifications is not what will happen. There will be some minor Canadian mods but nothing much more.

Run whatcha brung.

We will do fine with 2A4 as is.

Yup, that should have been the motto of the CF from about 1975 to well into the 2000s.

We are actually doing quite well given the current economic situation and the fact that a large part of the budget is being consumed on operations. Remember the last recession? We were lucky to get out of that one with 60K troops. Now at least we have 100 MBTs that have the potential to be upgraded at a later date. That is after the new artillery, surveillance suite, AFVs and smaller items are paid for. We still have to decide the fate of the RG-31s post Afghanistan. In short, we can be thankful to the current government which has gone a long way to fixing the neglect of the previous government.

What we should have done in the mid 1990s instead of the conversion of the C1 to C2 is to buy Leo IIs from the Dutch. At that time we had 114 C1s and our numbers of MBTs in NATO were limited to 114 under the Arms limitation treaty. When it became known that we were looking for an upgrade, the Dutch put exactly 114 Leo IIs up for sale. Go figure. However, I asked the dumb question at a Senior Review Board on equipment at the time, why are we upgrading an obsolete tank, when we could have a modern tank at the same price? I was politely told to shut up and afterwards I was told that the reason was politics. Tank is a four letter word as far as the Liberals were concerned, and they were hell bent on removing any offensive capability from the CF. I asked Gen Hillier the same question when he was CLS and he said it would take a change of government for the Army to get a new tank.

AS of two months ago the AEV project is still alive, but there are no plans to buy an AVLB. Hope to move back to a job 'in the know' shortly.

I agree totally with Paul.

Right now we are in the best state for money coming into the CF than we have been in for a long time. The problem is TFA is eating up a huge chunk of our money and we don't know how to properly use it.

We have to consider that we are getting huge amounts of money but we can spend it fast enough before treasury board claws it back. I remember about a month or two ago, the auditor general said that we lost 300M in the 07-08 FY due to our inability to spend it. Of course we don't get that money back, nor are we allowed to carry it over. The culture in the military, Civy DND side and treasury board has been one of limited budgets for so long that they don't know how to properly let contracts to spend the money in a timely fashion.

I have a friend who works for treasury board and who is also a reservist and he says that it is mind bogalling when he watches them with anything military related. Just look at them saying that we can either have the CASW or the 60mm mortar, but not both. He also said that they almost quashed the Leo 2's due to that Libderal culture that labelled tanks as a four letter word. They had to be reminded who was in power.

I think that once TFA is finished, we will really start to see the benefits of the budget increases.

Most of our NATO counterparts don't let politics plan any roll in defence spending due to the fact they have real threats on their borders. I think the mind set of Canadians in general has to change we need to understand the world is changing fast and we need to be ready.
What kills me is I see countries with one tenth our GDP with brand new Leopards.