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4 CMBG

May 16 2017 at 6:16 AM
Doug  (Login dgrev)
from IP address 114.198.46.30

 
Hello

Does anyone know how many of the following vehicles the 4th brigade had in Germany?

This would include in storage/reserve/in rebuild.

Ferret
M113
Lynx
Centurion
Leopard

Thanks
Doug

 
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AuthorReply

Anthony Sewards
(Login recceboy)
96.52.25.57

4 CMBG

May 17 2017, 9:12 PM 

Doug

Here is a great start, mind you some of the vehicles are from different timeframes:
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/organization/orgformations/4cmbg.htm

Anthony

 
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Doug
(Login dgrev)
114.198.46.30

Re: 4 CMBG

May 18 2017, 5:44 AM 

Anthony

Thanks for that, gives good background but no specific vehicle info.

Regards
Doug

 
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Bob Ascah
(Login India9B)
67.193.181.115

Constant Fluctuation

May 18 2017, 10:58 AM 

Doug
Your request covers a considerable timeframe and I don't believe that there is a single source document to draw on. From my time in 1984-1987 we had shortfalls from our war establishment in M577s and M548s that I can recall. I suspect that it was the same through all the brigade units and the shortfall was not limited to those vehicles but would have included almost all vehicles less such critical systems as Leopard C1, M109 and TOW. It would be necessary to review the monthly returns by units to HQ 4 CMBG and compile a list from that.
Note that Operational Stock (storage/reserve) was held by Canadian Forces Europe and was not part of the brigade holding and would not show in their returns. I am not aware of any dedicated rebuild fleet. I suspect that in the case of the M113 rebuild in the mid '80s, the program started with a handful of Operational Stock vehicles and as they came out of rebuild they were issued to individual units to replace the next batch going in. As such the battalion had a mixed M113A1 and M113A2 fleet for a number of years.

Bob

 
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Dan Martel
(Login degmartel)
65.95.166.46

Numbers

May 18 2017, 3:21 PM 

Doug,

I have a document entitled Canadian Army Equipment Status dated 5 Apr 1962 which gives the following data on armoured holdings (unit entitlement and war reserve) at the time:
Centurion - 58 gun tanks (medium tanks, command tanks and control tanks) and 3 Centurion ARV's.
Ferret - 38.

According to the information provided on Ram Tank http://www.ramtank.ca/ , the Canadian Army in Germany received 64 Centurion gun tanks and three ARV's. This number includes the first tanks delivered in 1952 to the last sent from Canada in the mid-60's.

When the Lynx was purchased in 1968, it was reported in the media that 48 were to be sent to Europe.

Again, when the Leopard entered service, it was reported in Defence 1978 that Canadian Forces Europe were going to receive 77 gun tanks, 5 ARV's and 4 AVLB's for a total of 86 vehicles.

Finally, Canadian Army documents I have from 1964 show that it was planned to send 396 versions of the M113 family of vehicles to Germany: 316 M113A1CDN; 22 M577 Command Posts; and 58 M548 Cargo Carriers.

Unfortunately I can't provide any information on whether or not these numbers changed over time, ie whether further vehicles were received or any were retired from service. I do have a copy of 3136-1 (DLP) Proposed New War Establishment 4 CMBG dated 22 Dec 1975 which in its Annex C lists current Canadian Fores Europe holdings for the following:
Centurion - 48 gun tanks, 3 Centurion ARV's, and 3 Centurion AVLB's.
Lynx - 55.
M113 family of vehicles - 308 (all carrier versions), 23 M577 Command Posts, and 56 M548 cargo carriers.

If you have any specific questions, or anything to narrow down the parameters of your search, please post it.

Cheers,
Dan.

 
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Doug
(Login dgrev)
114.198.46.30

4CMBG

May 21 2017, 7:42 AM 

Dan and Bob

Thanks for the information.

Regards
Doug

 
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Joe Gaudon
(Login jgaudon)
99.237.253.234

4CMBG

May 28 2017, 12:40 PM 

I was a reserve 031 sent to Germany (Baden) in the summer of 1981 for the big REFORGER 81 NATO Ex. There were about 70 or more of us from all over Canada sent to beef up the authorized strength of the rifle companies of 3RCR. We all stayed in Barracks on the button by the company lines, but we were integrated right into the existing companies at about 1-2 per section. There was another 25 sent to Lahr to provide Bde HQ with a full Security Pl.
That's over 35 years ago, but I was already modeler at the time and was very observant of our equipment.
I recall that the company had the standard equipment at the time, old style jeeps, M548s for CQ, 5 Quads for comms, and I do recall seeing a 577. I am not remembering Deuce and a halfs, but there must have been some. We lived in the M113's. A1s I guess? Only going by the fact that the fuel cell was inside, we had a pair each of fuel and water cans on the outside rear on each side of the ramp.
It was Pre Nato camo, with 2 greens and black. (No brown).

RCD were based out of Lahr, so we didn't get to see the tanks until the Exercise workups. We had a day of Tango integration and did joint training with a troop of Leo's. As I recall, it was B Sqd, (C/S 2x, with B-names on the turrets).

I found this site, alot of pictures of equipment from the 70's thorough 87's
http://silverhawkauthor.com/4-canadian-mechanized-brigade-group-canadian-forces-europe_366.html

Hope this helps
Joe


 
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Doug
(Login dgrev)
114.198.46.30

4 CMBG

May 28 2017, 10:42 PM 

Joe

Thanks for the information and site link.

From your description, the M113s would be A1 version.

Regards
Doug

 
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