I would like enquire for watches that are lying dormant-not on winders, in storage with occasional say once every three month winding up,when do we really need to send them in for servicing.
I assume with the new lubricants,there should not be any "drying" up issues? and with minimal usage,there would not be any grind/dirt issues?
Any enlightment on this appreciated.
thanks

All lubricants dry out eventually, but according to a knowledgeable source (a person I trust who said he heard it directly from a Breguet representative) modern lubricants will retain their lubricating ability for about 15 years. I suspect that this means 15 years inside a modern, well-sealed case; one would expect that in a drafty vintage case the lubricants break down more quickly. Of course, running the watch causes the lubricants to break down more quickly, so if you find that you are running the watch (for example) 10% of the time at a five-year breakdown rate and letting it sit 90% of the time at a 15-year breakdown rate, you can do the arithmetic to determine the expected life of the lubricants.

Hi mkvc,

The manufacturers of the lubricants found in watches recommend that they not be stored for more than 6 months, and some service centers keep them in refrigerators.

I've seen basically "brand new" watches that sat in jewelers showcases for several years and did not run at all or ran very poorly because of dried out lubricants. I would guess that the degradation of lubricants is accelerated greatly by hot display lights, but I don't really have any good info about how much of a factor that is.

Some actually believe that they degrade faster when the watch is NOT running, others believe the opposite to be true. The bottom line is that the tiny quantities of lubricants found in very specific locations in watch movements do degrade over time whether the watch is being used or not.

_john

the same watch I will see in a display case 8" away from a strong/hot halogen bulb (~300w?) for a year or two. I think I'm (slightly) less concerned about the time than the heat so close to the watch 10 hours/day 6 days/week. I have no formal evidence of it being a problem, but to this layman, it just seems bad.

Since Swatch bought Moebius I can no longer find web site for the latter.

Chris

Please note that the original question posited that the watches would be kept in storage and operated at least once per three months. I agree that hot conditions can destroy lubricants very quickly and also that occasional use is required to keep lubricants in good condition; however, I did not address those issues in my response because the original question took care of them.

There are two processes that cause a lubricant to lose its effectiveness: chemical degradation and physical wear caused by motion or rubbing. My point was that I had been told the chemical degradation process took about 15 years. It is my opinion that if the watch is kept running constantly, the physical wear destroys the lubricant before chemical degradation becomes relevant. However, if the watch is run infrequently, so that physical wear is not a major consideration, then chemical degradation becomes the limiting factor on lubricant life.

Experiment in progress right now: I just received a watch that is about eight years old and clearly has received very little use. It will be interesting to see whether it requires service over the next few months.

Hi mkvc,

I'd wager that your watch does need service, but that doesn't mean that it will necessarily perform so poorly that you'll know it. Some watches will fail immediately when their lubricants start to degrade and/or give obvious signs that they need service. Other times though they will run for many more years, doing substantial damage to the pivots, and various other friction surfaces.

You know those stories about people wearing a watch for 30 years and not needing service? Those watches have to have MANY parts replaced when they finally do get serviced because they have been running long past the effective lifespan of the lubricants.

The key point to my first post on the subject that you seem to have missed is that the lubricant manufacturers recommend that the oils and greases not be kept more than 6 months or a year before replacing them. If their life expectancy was anything on the order of 15 years (after opening them), this would not be necessary.

_john

Thank you Gentlemen for the informative posts.
Referring to John's posts,is the lubricant manufacturer saying that the shelf life of the lubricant in the watch is 6 to 12 months,less maybe with daily usage?
Then the recommendations by most watch manufacturers would be wrong then for the 2 to 3 years service after purchase?

I suppose it applies to most lubricant too in cars,machinery/moving parts too.
We have common household products -like ceilling fan that works well without service for more than 20 years,bicycle for years;I believe these are more relevant comparison as lubricating points are the bearings/pivots like watches and some of these cheap houshold products are using lubless plastic bearings etc like the newest watches's silicon/ceramic bearings etc; than car engines where the piston anvil actually dips into the lubricants.We almost never have to regrease the car wheels/joints.
Can we then say that these cheap industrial lubricant last better than the watch's?

I agree with John's view that when serviced 1st time after 20-30 years,most watch(and the consumer goods' ones) moving parts have to be replaced but if they are common/mass produced movements,it may be cheaper more effective this way.

I wind most of my "dormant" watches once every 3 to 6 months in the believe that it keep the lubricant "alive'.Not really sure though .I do wish though most of my 30+ "sleeping beauties' will come alive again when awaken years latter.

warm regards,
Min

If a six-month "use before" indication on the lubricant container definitively establishes the lubricant's useful life, then we should all be getting our watches serviced every six months.

Of course, that is not necessary: we routinely expect to get three to five years of running time between services. Many people consider the three-to-five year interval shorter than necessary: I was personally told by Chopard's then-head of United States watch service that I should expect my Chopard perpetual calendar to run seven years before needing service (yes, that's running, not resting). Clearly, once small amounts of the lubricant have been installed inside a sealed watch a life considerably longer than six months is expected. Accordingly, I don't think we get relevant information from the six-month indication you mentioned.

did some brief search and apparently watch lubricants are derived mainly from Sharks' parts(whales in old days).If true,it may explain the theoretically the shorter shelf life as mentioned by John being bio organic although its qualities maybe changed in processing or preservatives added etc.

Hi mkvc,

The fact that it is recommended that it be discarded after 6 months to a year after opening is simply evidence that it goes bad on its own without being in a running watch. It does not mean that it goes bad in 6 months, but if you use 2 year old lubricant to service a watch, maybe it will only protect the bearings properly for another 3 years instead of 5.

And no, to my knowledge modern lubricants are not made from organic materials, being largely if not completely synthetic.

I'd be curious to kow if your Chopard Perpetual did in fact run for 7 years without any problems. Not that it's impossible, I would just find it to be slightly on the other side of the bell curve.

_john

topic and discussion to get derailed due to "linguistic grey areas" -

I know pharma and foodstuff "best if used by" dates are very soft and err GROSSLY on the side of safety (pharma OTC stuff tend to be good for YEARS after their expiration date) but is it so conservative for lubricants?

And if so, why so conservative?

and if not, what's going on here, substantively?

Very interesting...

John, you have to admit, if UNUSED lub has a six month shelf-life, why on earth would it last longer after application (but non-use) in a watch?

Therefore...(a few intellectual conclusions force themselves, which may or may not have any bearing with reality...hence my opening comment.)

Thanks, looking forward to how this discussion pans out.

TM


"A Purist does not believe in gilt by association. Respect, AND disdain, have to be earned..."

Hi Thomas,

Milk can be kept under ideal conditions for 14 to 17 days before it goes bad. Regulations require a "sell by" date that is somewhere between 4 and 9 days, assuming that most folks will drink it within a week or so after that. It doesn't mean that it goes bad in 4 days, but it's a pretty clear indication that it's gonna bad in less than a month.

If a lubricant manufacturer knows their lubricant is effective for 15 years, they might give an "only store for" recommendation of 5 or 10 years, but not 6 months to a year. Of course we can assume that the lubricant manufacturers want to sell more lubricants, but watch companies do in fact pay attention to how long watches run on average, so if the lubricant companies GROSSLY underestimate how long lubricants can be stored before using them, it wouldn't take too long before the watch companies would wise up and take those recommendations with a large grain of salt. That is not happening.

In fact, the companies that are serious about quality service are continually taking a closer look at proper lubrication storage and application to see how the processes can be improved in the interest of lowering the incidence of warranty repairs, lower the comeback rates and generally extend service intervals.

I know there are wathc collectors out there who believe that the 3-5 year service interval recommendation is just a scam to get more of our hard earned money, but for the most part at least, this is absurd. It's widely understood within the industry that running aftersales service in the black at all is a real accomplishment. It is not by any stretch of the imagination a cash cow and is valued primarily as a way to support the brand image and sell more watches (where the money comes from).

A recommended service interval is a way to manage expectations. If you know that some substantial percentage of the watches you make and/or service will fail after 4-5 years, it behooves you to let your customers know the recommended service interval is 3-5 years. That way when this substantial percentage of watches do stop, the customer will not be quite as furious as he/she might've been otherwise. If you tell your customers your watches run for 10 years between servicings and 70% of them stop after 7 years, you're gonna have a customer service nightmare on your hands and/or will bankrupt yourself with complimentary services.

OK, so back to the lubricants. A watch will run for 3-5 years on average not because tremendous loads or extreme heat are grinding away at the oils and greases inside. I mean sure, there is some degree of molecular shear taking place, and the wear of the metallic components is generating particles that are contaminating the oils and making them less effective. But the real problem is oxidization. The oils are simply drying out. Of course as they dry out the problems of shear and contamination are accelerated tremendously as well.

And yes, the amount of air inside a sealed wristwatch is plenty to oxidize the tiny fractions of a millilitre of oil found in the various bearings. And no, a watch case is not perfectly air tight anyway. Water resistant (even to great depth) is not the same as air tight, and over time the gases inside the case are circulating to some extent (arguably very, very little in a diving watch).

I am not a materials scientist, a chemist nor certainly a tribologist. Take all of the above as conjecture and supposition based on what I've actually seen in watches in service. And no, I do not have the many years of experience that some practicing watchmakers have, but I have had the good luck to work for companies and be put in positions that allow me to examine a LOT of watches personally as well as look at a LOT of data about warranty issues, comebacks and other technical and service issues.

_john

who has worked in a number of the top-10 real manufactures from benchwork, component QC and through to global sales. 

He also used the "milk analogy" and threw away his nearly-full bottles every year as a Spring ritual. The problem is oxidation and although very little in the bottle, the thinly spread material on the watch parts decomposes faster due to the larger surface area exposed.

He also shared the return rate of Swiss watches breakdown by component - movement, dial, glass, case, bracelet, utility etc and they are vastly different from my previously industry-quoted figures (another thread) that John (ei8htohms) callled "fabrication".   John was correct but we cannot reveal the real figures.... 

 

Regards, MTF

You could have asked the other 9 guys and gotten the other 10 opinions.

If lubricants decompose so quickly, it sounds as if service intervals should be shorter than three to five years. (Alternatively, watches should never be serviced since even those that are serviced regularly run without effective lubricant most of the time.) Is that what we are being told?

is human error in the after sales service process.

TM

"A Purist does not believe in gilt by association. Respect, AND disdain, have to be earned..."

Hi Guys,

I can't understand how we went from "modern lubricants last for 15 years" to "they dry out immedately and 3 - 5 years is too long between services". Isn't it possible that something in between is true? Isn't it possible that the manufacturers' recommendations about service intervals are actually based on real world observations of how lubricants perform?

_john

On this subject is pretty simple and pretty consistent across discussion - there is a very intellectually ambiguous back and forth between quantitative rigour and qualitative looseness.

Nothing is ever quantitatively define - lubricity of the lubricant at any given age, quantity concentration.

What constitutes acceptable wear. What ARE the raw wear characteristics of un lubricated metals / materials used?

One of my other passions is high performance STREET cars (which means cars that can't practically have their engines rebuilt after every trip)

People deductively and inductively dance around the very same issues, and even overlapping related ones (with horological applications) - motors and gears and shocks and suspension parts seizing due to unuse vs wear and tear through use and how to mitigate through lubrication and how long and what viscosities etc etc

This aint proprietary to mechanical watches.

Same problems in the discussions too. When customers paid for their own servicing rec was generally 5k. When BMW paid for it (free maintenance) it suddenly went to 10-12k. And of course Jiffy Lube recommends 3k.

And most such discussions didn't even take into account improvements in lubricants and tribology like synthetics and...

If SOMEONE would come forth and define the parameters there might be some really meaningful progress in topical discussions!

jm2c

TM

"A Purist does not believe in gilt by association. Respect, AND disdain, have to be earned..."

On by PDA screen.



"A Purist does not believe in gilt by association. Respect, AND disdain, have to be earned..."

I am very careful with my watches, and since the Chopard perpetual is kept running constantly it is quite likely that I will have it serviced before expiration of its seven-year period. It is ironic that I am on the "long interval" side of this discussion as in practice I follow a "short interval" policy. (That is in part because I have a lot of wathces for which spare parts would be difficult or expensive to obtain.)

One other thought: wasn't there some talk about Omega's co-axial movements hoping to achieve a ten-year service interval? I know the escapement is not (or at least is not supposed to be) reliant on lubrication, but that would indicate a conclusion that the other lubricated parts of the movement could go ten years between services.

Hi mkvc,

It's doubly ironic, as I am actually one of the types who lean towards not servicing a watch as long as it is running well. My thinking is simply that, from a purely practical standpoint, as long as parts are readily available, it is more cost effective to let the watch run even if it is damaging itself. Movement parts are generally not charged for separately when a watch is serviced, so the overhaul will likely cost the same at 5 years as it would at 10 or 15.

No one should think of this as an actual recommendation however, it's just food for thought. Some companies will charge a lot more if a watch has clearly been neglected or abused; replacement parts are not readily available for every watch out there; and service centers (and certainly independent watchmakers) that are not extremely conscientious will not necessarily change all the worn or damaged parts, changing perhaps the wheels but not the jewels, etc.

It didn't take long for Omega to back off on their service interval claims for the coaxial escapement. They stepped back from 10 to 7 years almost immediately, and the last I heard they were back to something in the 5 year range or so. You'd have to check out some official Omega literature to be sure though. I do know more than a handful of watchmakers who work on coaxials every day, and in my experience none of them think it is some kind of holy grail or tout any extended service interval.

_john

. . . were to truly require no oil and produce no wear as implemented by Omega (or Dr. Daniels himself for that matter) there's also the point that it doesn't keep other parts of a watch from undergoing wear. A lubrication free escapement doth not a lubrication free watch make .

Jack

I feel predicting service intervals for watches solely on the life of “watch oil” is too absolute. There are many watch oils used in watch repair all with varied properties. On top of the extensive list of oils are contributing factors to service life. I will try my best to explain my thoughts on the subject but I am afraid it won’t be very brief. I hope some of you enjoy the read and those that do not, I apologize for the length as it is a wee bit more than 2 cents worth. I am also sorry if I have repeated any points.

Recommended Service Intervals

Factory recommended service intervals and watchmaker’s recommended service intervals are based on many factors and their relation to the specific watch in question. I say “watch” as the movement is but one factor in this equation and thus cannot be directly compared to other brand’s watches using a similar movement.

Real world experiences are constantly analyzed by credible watch companies. Some companies take the “wait and see” approach to R&D and wait for the big dogs to find the answers. Either way answers are being found as evidence is compiled from the service centers and from authorized watchmaker’s reports.

Some brands update their service interval times with improvements in repair methods or changes in oils or materials. Other brands prefer to repeat age old advice figuring “better safe then sorry”. While still other brands give extended service intervals regardless of associated data. These companies figure as long as the sales figures are not affected it can act as a selling point, and view the additional repair costs as a factor of their sales profits.
Retailers often give generic across-the-board recommendations. Customers don’t want to be told their potential new watch needs to be serviced within a year because it is manual wind. Retailers/brands don’t want to tell a customer this either, it can spoil a sale! The money is made on the sale with the service loss figured as a general factor of company operations. As a general rule, at least for the brands I am familiar with and/or trained on, service is a money loss for the companies. The service prices are an attempt to soften the blow to the company.

I personally give the advice of 1-3 years for manual wind watches and 3-5 years for automatics watches. The shorter end of the range is for everyday wear and the longer end of the time frame for occasional use as part of a collection. Results will vary depending on the owner and the specific watch. I then can adjust this advice based on my experience and knowledge of the whole package in question or if I know the customer’s habits will affect the performance of the watch. This is to maintain the watch in good working order. This especially needs to be followed for watches with limited parts availability. If a watch is being left in storage and is not on a winder it probably can go a little longer between servicing IF the owner knows that all oils are synthetic, the watch has been oiled in the ideal manner and epilame has been used to keep the oil from spreading while stored. Those watches kept on a wind should be considered daily wearers as they are always running. It is at the customer’s discretion if they choose to make the financial gamble of increasing the wear on their components to lengthen the service interval and save money. This method can work well for those people looking to save money and who are not interested in keeping their machine in the best of conditions. They just need to be careful should the parts become unavailable during their extended service interval.



My recommendations are based of experience with oils used 3-5-10-30+ years ago and do not factor in recent additions of new oils. I will have to wait and see the results from recently serviced watches using current oils. Either way, oil is only one of 3 main factors I use in estimating service intervals. Those 3 factors are:
1) Gasket life and subsequent water resistance
2) Customer variables such as chemicals and sports
3) Oil life

.

Basically, a recommendation is only as good as the person or company giving it and the interpretation is only as good as the ears it falls on!



Recent Updates
Recent updates in oils used in the watch industry appear to have significant improvements in their respected areas. I will wait to see the results for myself but what I have seen is very promising. In my opinion, the most significant changes lately with regards to friction, have been in the heavy oil/light grease arena and Fixodrop adoption.
• For those of you unfamiliar with Fixodrop, it is an epilame and has been used by the factories for a long time but is being more and more accepted and used by factory service centers and watchmakers. Epilame is a surface treatment that reduces the effective surface tension of a material. This makes the relation to the oil’s surface tension disproportionate and causes the oil to pool in more of a droplet form. Some well respected people still view epilame as voodoo that is unnecessary and detrimental to the performance of a watch. Many watchmakers still simply misunderstand its purpose and application. This, I think is partly due to Rolex’s use of Epilame on their reversers in their automatics. Because watchmakers with old school training or experience are familiar with oiling old school reversers like those in an Omega 550 or ETA they think Epilame is some sort of dry lubricant. This is not correct at all. Epilame is fundamental to proper functioning of the Rolex style reversers because their click systems in the reverser have only one pivot while the other side of the click rests flat against the inside of the reverser. Should oil find its way to this spot the reverser will fail to function properly. The increase in surface tension of the oil on the flat side of the click prevents the click from performing properly. This picture shows the underside of the Rolex style reverser with the single pivot click hiding under the rim. From this angle the pivot is on the bottom of the click.



An ETA reverser has 2 pivots on its clicks and thus is not affected in this way. Both designs have plus’ and minus’ and should be serviced accordingly.
Some go so far as to ban epilame from their service practices claiming it is bad but the “special treatment” from the factory is ok but nonrenewable. Should such a “special treatment” no longer appear effective, the part should be replaced. This is just silliness. When a watch repair trainer tells me this, I know it is a cover-up for a corporate policy. For some reason brands tend to filter the truth to watchmakers as well as customers. The policy of replacing a treated part instead of reapplying epilame is not because the treatment cannot be renewed. It is because it is easier and cheaper than training and monitoring of the proper application procedure. Improper application of epilame can cause serious problems in a movement.

• 2) The heavy oil/light grease arena, as with any oiling discussion is very controversial. D5 is a common oil that fits this bill. Some watchmakers view it as a grease and others view it as an oil. I view it as an oil because it is a pretty fluid liquid at room temperature. This means that is runs away from were you put it (without epilame) and is too light to be used with great results in areas that have high pressure (relative to watch movements). The biggest argument for it being a grease is ETA’s extensive use of D5 in it’s oiling charts. It is my understanding that complete ETA movements are assembled by robots. Therefore, it is my opinion that it is probably easier and cheaper to use fewer oils and greases. For any corporation making millions of something, saving a penny per item saves a lot of money. This seems to work for them but is not the ideal application. D5 started is life as a natural oil. It is my understanding it was later made into a semi-synthetic oil and today is almost completely replaced with the fully synthetic HP series of oils (specifically HP-1000). Not everyone is keen on adopting it, claiming little difference other than color. I think the underlying price is a consideration. Watchmakers, as a species, tend to be quite frugal and cling to what we already know. As a note, D5 is listed at $33 and HP-1000 is listed at $99.50 currently by Jules Borel.

Degrading of Oil
• Oils do degrade, this is a fact. How long it takes to degrade to an unsatisfactory level is dependent on MANY factors in a dynamically active device such as a wrist watch.

Chemical composition
• This is a factor in determining the theoretical life span of the oil by itself without any interaction with heat, pressure or other substances. There are many oils used in the watch industry all with different properties. Fully Synthetic oils tend to be more stable and last longer.

Negative Chemical Reactions
• An oil can have negative chemical reactions to other substances it is put in contact with. These include off-gassing from dial paints and adhesives (yes this is an issue), UV radiation, remaining residue from previous oils (previously very serious issue), Sharpie markers used to date servicing, exterior chemical contact that is breathed into the watch (potentially cigarette smoke, bleach, detergents etc). The cigarette smoke I can only add by association as certain synthetic oils in servicing clocks are crystallized very quickly if there is a smoker in the house. I would wager radioactive luminous material can also play a part in the death of a good oiling job. If can be detected at the airport and rust parts and destroys dials, why not oils?



Evaporation rate
• The evaporation rate of an oil in a watch is greatly affected by case design and the environment the watch is subjected to. Watch cases breathe as they are not air tight only water tight at best. When subjected to changes in temperature the case and gaskets expand and contract as well as the air inside. When a watch cools down it inhales and when it heats up it breaths out. Anyone wishing to test this need only take there watch off their warm wrist everyday and put on the bathroom counter to cool off while running a steamy shower. The humidity level can increase until a small drop of cold water on the crystal will condense the interior moisture onto the crystal. Beware! Potential damage to dial paint, luminous material, and rust of steel parts and displacement of oil can occur.



This accumulation of humidity would probably be somewhat negated if the watch is located in a dry climate area where later breathing would limit the buildup of humidity inside the watch case. But then the dryer air reducing the humidity would also increase the evaporation of the oil itself.

Design and finish of the location to be oiled
• Surface finish is not just for looks. The surface finish of materials as well as their shape plays a key role in maintaining the oil where it is supposed to stay.

Heat increases evaporation
• As well as dry climates like the southwest US, evaporative heat can be found in south facing window displays or hot light fixtures WITHIN the show case. This works fine with jewelry but not with machines like watches.

Pressure related friction
• Case related pressure from levers and screw down crowns can cause extreme damage to a movement due to the high pressure levels. This damage is usually seen in the setting area where even the thickest grease like KT-22 will do little to stop it. The stem and crown assembly needs to be specifically engineered to compensate for this added pressure. Just because a movement is ok in a case with a waterproof crown doesn’t mean it will be ok if it has a screw down crown or other crown securing device



• Pressures from manually winding watches can also cause damage especially when combined with above crown engineering issues or improper stem installation. These things cause the stem and setting parts to grind into the main plate of the movement and send metal shavings throughout the watch case. This not only damages the setting area but also contaminates oils as far away as the escapement.



• With today’s movement designs having multiple complications, more power is needed to drive these functions. The more power stored in a mainspring the more power is needed to overcome the mainspring when winding the watch. This increases the wear in the automatic as well as the setting area. Movements with large barrels are more susceptible to this and need to be engineered to accommodate the additional friction. Heavy rotors made of precious metals are more effective at winding the mainspring. This is because they weigh more and have more inertia. This means the more effective they are for moving a mainspring, the more power they have to grind away pivots and bearings and thus need heavier oils. Movements are not always designed with these things in mind at the onset, especially the modified ones that are embellished or retrofitted to modern watches.

Friction from Speed
• Degrading of oil from friction is also increased by speed of the moving parts. Those parts in a watch with light torque but high speed need an oil that will work properly for that application. This has always been an issue with 36,000bph watches and is the main reason this beat rate has not become more common. If the oil is too thick on a fast moving part it will not flow around the moving part properly. With regards to escape wheel teeth and pallet stones an oil like 9010 is to thin and can get thrown from the escape wheel. At the very least its travel is increased due to the speed of the moving parts and it will accumulate in an area where it doesn’t meet such challenges. Escapement grease such as 941 or 9415 should be used on the pallet stones depending on beat rate. Additional specialty greases for 36,000bph movements need to be used for their escapements.

Friction and Wear from Impact
• Impact stresses and the related friction from such repetitive activities like golf, hammering nails, and lawn mowing can do immense damage to otherwise very sturdy parts. Less obvious impacts can be just as harmful. I am speaking of the wonderful habit of setting watches crown down on a surface. Some watch’s crown systems protect from this sort of damage but as a general rule hammering a stem into a main plate with little taps is like dripping water. Eventually it will wear a hole in just about anything.





Friction and Wear from a Watchmaker
• Friction can be unintentionally introduced from the watchmaker that is assembling the movement (before or after sale). This can be improper end shakes (too large or too small) or more commonly, improperly installed winding stems. This is seen a lot. It is for some reason a common approach to hold a winding stem in a pin vise to shorten it and thread on the new crown. For that mater it is also used to remove the old crown. This causes 4 scar like burs to be raised on the main hub (most common place of clamping) that make the stem now act a milling bur to the main plate. This can ruin a main plate in an extremely short period of time. In such an instance, if one were to reexamine the setting area after all the turning of the stem from setting the hands and calendar, such burs can already have ruined the main plate.




Proper Choice of Oil or Grease
• Friction is reduced by properly choosing the correct oil or grease for a given application. Oils and greases should be thinnest to thickest (generally speaking) from the balance wheel to the barrel. Another general rule is “oil for turning parts and grease for sliding parts” A turning part such as a center wheel or barrel arbor that is not jeweled to reduce friction will need heavier lubrication. A grease cannot be too thick in the winding area or the barrel arbor as these areas of friction are driven by the power of the human hand and need protection from such high levels of torque.

Proper Oiling Technique
• Proper application of said oil/grease will determine if it stays put to protect the interacting components. Less lubrication on the pallet stones will actually stay longer than more lubrication. The same is true elsewhere. Too much lubrication encourages the oil to travel and once it reaches a confined space, capillary attraction will then suck the rest along with it. It can be an interesting conversation to tell a customer that their watch is basically flooded with oil but the dry pivots are all worn out.

Humidity
• Humidity can degrade oils and their effectiveness. Humidity in a well sealed watch can accumulate from temperature changes as referenced earlier. Other culprits can include cold/hot safes such as those in basements or attics. Hot tubs or cold pools can be great for getting watches wet. Glove boxes in cars are terrible. A hot or cold car can kill your children and is even worse for your watches. The cold can reduce the effectiveness of the oils by thickening them and the heat can encourage the oil to “run away”. Humidity can change natural oils, while synthetic oils are less affected. However the resulting rust changes things nicely. Also when the dew point is reached, while perhaps not changed, the oil can be moved from it position thus eliminating its effectiveness.



Material Failure
• Another variable than can affect the oil in a watch is material failure due to time or environmental exposure. By this I mean gaskets. Gaskets will loose their seal faster do to UV, temperature changes, and exposure to chemicals like chlorine in a pool. Gaskets that loose their pressure allow even more air to exchange until they start allowing water to exchange which is very noticeable.

Manual Wind versus Automatic Wind
• As stated above Manual wind watches need more frequent servicing than automatic watches due to the wear to the setting and winding area as well as the gaskets that wear every time it is wound.

Movement Design
• Movement design has a lot to do with how well an oil will last in a watch. I will not get into which is better, old or new, but things change, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. Old school manufacturing of watches dictated that parts like pinions and pivots where thru hardened. Today manufacturing “labor” is much cheaper so companies can save money on expensive tooling by cutting softer metals and then just replace the parts at the service interval. Some pivots and pinions today are case hardened. This has its pro’s and con’s as well. Less breaking of pivots but complete failure after the layer of case hardening is worn through. The pivots can actually get cut off of the pinion.



Oil Disposal
Many oils can be affected by UV radiation. This is why proper storage is necessary.
Shelf life recommendations for oils could be in part because companies want to sell a watchmaker more than 2ml of oil in their lifetime. Shelf life recommendations, I think, also have to do with contaminating the oil. I think if you bought a bottle of oil and never inserted anything into it and could pour out the oil (not possible) the synthetic oils would be good for the discussed 15 years to life (in storage not in use). An older sheet kicking around in my drawer from Moebius 9010/9020/9030 states the following: “Moebius synthetic oils do not gum up or age…Changes in humidity do not affect the coefficient of friction.”



However my current oils did not come with the old style paper. My HP-1000 reads on the side of the bottle:
• R 20/22 Harmful by inhalation and if swallowed
• R50/53 Very Toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment
• R62 Possible risk of impaired fertility
• R63 Possible risk of harm to the unborn child
• S36/37 Wear suitable protective clothing and gloves
• S57 Use appropriate container to avoid environmental contamination
• S60 This material and its container must be disposed of as hazardous waste.
• S61 Avoid release to the environment. Refer to special instructions/safety data sheets

I take this to mean the customer’s watch will run fine simply at the cost of my reproductive abilities. Perhaps I should stop using HP-1000 as an ice cream topping!

The other reason for discarding oil containers on a regular basis is contamination from use. The oil needs to get out of the container. Usually, this is done by inserting something into the bottle like a screwdriver blade or dip-oiler. While taking oil out of the container, it also provides the opportunity to insert contaminates such as paper towel fibers, metal shavings, finger print oil, rub-off or whatever else was used to “clean” the dip stick. Some oils are now coming prepackaged in syringes to reduce the risk of contaminating the bulk of the oil. This is a great step forward.

This is the same reason the oil in our oil cups needs to be discarded at least once a week.
Dip-oilers leave behind metal shavings from rubbing against the agate oil wells in my oil cups as they are not perfectly polished. Plastic oil cups are the opposite and can accumulate plastic shavings. Plastic can also have a chemical reaction to many oils that will reduce there life expectancy. Oils need to be formulated to be chemically neutral when in contact with certain plastics

Then again if you listen to my collector friend, these frequent services and high prices are all because watchmakers are over paid grease monkeys. The truth in this can be found by the luxurious lifestyle bench watchmakers enjoy. Only champagne and caviar at morning tea for me!


I hope some of you enjoyed this.

TCP

It's going to take a while to digest THAT little lot.

Many thnaks indeed.

nick

Thank you for sharing.Should be one the of definitive post on service intervals&lubrications.

NT

I learned a lot. I'm amazed my watches run at all.

Thks for sharing

That was a tremendously informative post!

. . .it's a real treat to read a piece like this, one of the most useful and interesting posts it has been my pleasure to peruse in many a month.

It almost takes away the memory of all those strap posts .

Thanks TCP, needless to say I have bookmarked this wonderful, reference grade commentary.

Cheers and thanks,

Jack

Hi TCP,

This is a great read from someone who has not only the experience to know of what he speaks, but more importantly, has taken the time to carefully consider the variables involved and come to informed opinions about the materials and mechanisms. While I do not have the luxury to share my thoughts and experiences with anywhere near the depth you have here, suffice it to say that I agree with the great majority of what you've written and have no major disagreements with any of it. More importantly, it made for an enjoyable read.

_john

John,

I am glad you enjoyed the read. Your response means a lot coming from a fellow watchmaker. I wish there were discussions like this more often. A contagious thread on precision pendulum clocks got me hooked on thepurists.com some years back and I love to see similarly intellectual discussions still cropping up.

TCP


Long live THE CROWN

. . . system? I've tried to bring this up twice before in the recent past . . . it seems to me that this is one technical development that offers potential benefits. And yes, I immensely enjoyed your dissertation - thanks very much, TCP. Cordially, Art

Art,
I don't have any personal experience with the new Eterna designs so I can only offer my speculations. Perhaps someone else here can give some experience related views. If I remember correctly (please correct me if I don't) Eterna now has ball bearings in the crown wheel and for the barrel arbor. It is my opinion that ball bearing, even the ceramic ones, are a pre-assembled component are are meant to thrown away when worn. This is not to say the new ceramic ball bearing aren't the greatest thing since sliced bread but bread does get moldy. In a standard watch design there usually is not even a bushing. In this case when the mainplate or barrel bridge gets worn from use it can be centered on the lathe and bored out to fit a bushing, jewel or post depending on the application. Ceramic ball bearings would work nicely hear as well as long as they are replaceable. I do not recall seeing the new Eterna calibers having some sort of ball bearing for the actual stem. This area can be quite sensitive. With the stem being a rather long component providing plenty of leverage, combined with the torque from the hand, a lot of damage can occur. It is also a tricky area for proper repair as the main plate and barrel bridge usually combine to form a sort of split bearing surface. It usually is not a problem if everything is installed correctly and the watch is serviced at regular intervals. I just look at things (new and old) with the idea of what they will be like when they are 100 years old. Thanks for asking, I hope it helps, somewhat.

TCP

Long live THE CROWN

the ball bearing idea is a worth while idea, again as a professional watchmaker I have no experience with the new Eterna system and I would love the chance to personally explore one


But in my non watch life (yes watchmakers do have lives)I am an avid inline hockey player with a ton of experience re doing skates and bearings


I do not have ability to take good pics like TCP so bear with me (no pun intended)


i have to agree with TCP on the ceramic bearings (in a watch sense)they are an alternative that is replaceable semi easily by maybe less skilled repairmen (by this I mean not all watchmakers can and will properly set up a lathe to re do bushings --due to time, money, skill etc)

in my experiences with ceramic bearings in the skate industry most ball bearings are for an single direction force (in a watch it works no lateral forces) in speed skates the ceramic bearings are a one direction force and have great speed and longevity but put those same bearings in a hockey application (harsh starts and stops, pivots, more side forces) the bearing are toast in as little as 1 period

This not only goes for ceramic bearings as well as tighter tolerance steel bearings

(its a fine line speed vs. longevity)

ok back to watchs in the crown wheel systems (like the new Eterna) it is a system that was tried and stopped (I believe in the 60s) I know there is a movt at the shop with one I can see it


as far as the stem TCP is spot on


JD

Your welcome for the posting, although I was only one part of the discussion and would not have been spurred to write so much without other great contribution to the topic. I am sorry for the bad links to some of the pictures. I tried to make some changes but I think somethings are in progress. I look forward to more discussions like this but not its time to get some work.

TCP

Long live THE CROWN

NT

I am a member of the Automotive Oil Change Association (yes, I know, yawn) and we have the same on-going debates about motor oil. Do we change at 3000 miles? 20,000 km? Never? Whenever?

There is no industry consensus on this, and we have hundreds of millions of automobiles driving around. You would think there would be some common agreement, but NO.

The oil-changers (read: watchmakers) say 3-5 thousand miles. That's in the US where bulk oil is no more than $1.00 per litre.

The manufacturers say "Change when our reminder light comes on" which is about 12,000 miles or 20,000 km.

The actual customer seems to be changing oil about 5500 miles, or near 10,000 km.

I predict this is a discussion of value that will never be decided.

I have 9 cars; I change their oil about once a year each, whether that's 2000 miles or 12,000 miles. I have 50 watches and overhaul them when they stop keeping good time.

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,
A bit off topic here but hope you can enlighthen also;
Do they use grease/lub for the car wheel/axle joints/bearings?
Why is it that theres almost no stated service/regreasing required for these joints as there is for for transmission fluid,engine oil as you stated etc?
brgds,

Speaking of automotive lubrication specifications - we have no greasing intervals anymore because most new bearings are sealed. Not because people "couldn't" grease them, but they don't.

The bearing materials are better than decades ago, the lubricants are better, and the seals are much better at keeping foreign substances out. And it is cheaper to build the parts (bearings, tie rod ends, etc.) without grease fittings. That doesn't mean the bearings don't ever fail, because they do.

But overall, the cost of having to replace a sealed assembly once in a while is less than the cost of having greasable units, adding the labor to lubricate them, and building a workforce with the skill to fit and adjust them.

Now you just take the sealed unit from the box, bolt it in place and go.

Thanks Mike.AFAIK the car bearings seldom fail below 10 years.Seems the car bearing lub/grease do last longer.