This question came to me as I've recently read a number of posts with curse words.

IMO, cursing shows a lack of maturity and disrespect towards those you interact with.

I've heard, as all of us have, directors, teachers, conductors, and singers use bad language, and my natural reaction is to have lower respect for them.

An occasional outburst is expected when facing serious drama or bad times, but to use it in daily conversation is very 'teenager' to me.

Am I alone on this?

(I was going to respond with a smart-arsed comment but need to grow up at this stage and your post is interesting)

Cursing shows a certain lack of lack of emotional control (and possibly of eloquence, although I've heard quite a few flowery cursewords in my time) but I don't think, kept within boundaries and depending on the context, that it is such a major social faux pas. In terms of keeping one's emotions in check, we'd all like to be perfectly calm, rational people and sail through life without a hiccough but fact is that we experience minor irritants throughout the day and need some sort of vent for them; cursing in my opinion is a fairly innocent way of dealing with it. Of course it's immature, but to the level that most of us won't reach full maturity till our dying day, and I'd certainly not lower my overall respect for someone based on a few curse words.

Amongst friends, I think it's ok.. what you see as immaturity on this forum could be better described as congeniality, IMO

I also see cursing as an expressive tool aside from the occasional outburst.. almost like a well-placed swear word can denote the "degree" of something.. if that makes sense.. lol, generally speaking it's about "time and place". I wouldn't curse around my mother or use an expletive during an audition if I flub my high note, but if I'm playing ball with the fellas.. shit will be talked!

It's context my friend. There are very few things that are bad ALL the time; I can't count casual swearing among those things since it's always the reaction to what's being said instead of what's being said that causes the problem. That "being said" lol, some people do not understand the "time and place" concept.. I swear fore GOD, if I hear some punk say the N-word on the subway ONE MORE TIME..!! Let's just say I can't be held responsible for my actions...

"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there is nothing left to do, and nothing else to pursue."
Y. Tsunetomo

I think a lot about this. I think it's a generation gap. I curse freely with my my friends. I would never in a million years curse around someone older than me if they were in a position of authority. My parents hate it, but a lot of parents I know swear quite a lot. In classes I have had, students have cursed in formal speeches with not an eyebrow raised, and I have had few professors that didn't swear once or twice. Some professors that I had been quite close with were just as bad as me. I have always thought it was interesting how the lines are drawn.

I love swearing. I would like for all of those words to not even be "swear" words, but I imagine that no such language exists. I think the problem is people not knowing when and where it's appropriate. It's sort of like dirty jokes - you only tell them to people you know, and know will not be offended.

Edit: On what JLG said.... what is perceived as a lack of control is probably meant as a compliment of sorts. If it's not used in an outburst, that is. I associate swearing with humor, not anger. I think it's sort of a "I consider you to be a comrade, and I'll talk to you as such" kind of thing, mostly as a way to bring both people to the same level and erase hierarchy. Obviously, that backfires more often than not, because some people in a high position really enjoy the view from up there. Nevertheless, I think that is often the intention, rather than "I'm insulting you".

I avoid using curse words. They were not allowed in our house growing up and were considered inappropriate. Of course I hear them all the time in social situations and it does usually diminish my respect for a person, but not always. I understand that a gutter mouth is the norm here in the USA and people don't even think about it. I will definitely be turned off and will not date any man who uses four letter words (or others like bitch, n-word etc.) in my presence or to me. With friends I don't appreciate it but usually will not say anything about it.

I think it is absolutely unprofessional to use that language in a work situation (whether arts or otherwise). I have heard it utilized by directors in opera during staging and I have no respect for them. In a state of extreme frustration once or twice is one thing, and I would excuse it, but every other word is offensive.

Ha ha.

Baritonobasso

"The students are overstimulated. Willie, remove all the colored chalk from the classrooms!"

That's all I have to say....

In fairness, though, I should disclose that I got it from that font of things funny,

Tenor Vox!

I don't know where he got it.

Baritonobasso

"The students are overstimulated. Willie, remove all the colored chalk from the classrooms!"

Dengyusah!!!


Eh, who(m) KNOWS where I found it?
I gyoink stuff from practically everywhere on the intergnatzes, so...

Glad you enjoy it.

0>;>)=


T.V.



-- I AM the people my parents warned me about. --

I'm not sure what that says about me.

_______________________________________________
"I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it." - Pablo Picasso

stupid. I think swearing in daily conversation (barring exceptional circumstances) makes the speaker sound unintelligent and uneducated, whether or not they are. There are a million words in the English language that could be used for emphasis or in anger or disgust--why not use them?

It makes me think of Anything Goes--"Good authors too who once knew better words / Now only use four-letter words, / Writing prose." It's unnecessary.

I don't mind one bit! Especially in the context of a particularly well-written missive, I think profanity can add some welcome spice!

That said, I agree with others that swearing should generally be avoided in formal or professional contexts. Among many people, it's an endearing sign of familiarity. And as such, one should try to avoid being the first in any given situation to cross that bridge....

(I've hung out with enough Irish folks to appreciate how flavorfully a good "for fuck's sake" can be inserted into a sentence.)

I actually think my signature quotation sums it up well, coincidentally.

Marschallin


"Jedes Ding hat seine Zeit."

Or did I mean hell no!

LOL

Houndentenor

"Unleash your ferocity on an unsuspecting world." -- Bette Midler

Considering how fucking immature we all are, chastising us about our language is hardly going to get us to stop using foul language. It's like the OP doesn't know us at all. I watch my tongue in front of children and old people and donors to the opera companies where I am singing. And my mom. Otherwise I'm pretty much R rated. Like I care if people think I'm immature. If I were mature I would have gone to law school or something and not still be putting on costumes and singing loud in foreign languages. This is hardly a career for mature people. LOL

Houndentenor

"Unleash your ferocity on an unsuspecting world." -- Bette Midler

Of course I don't know you, just your typed words.

It's interesting that you can say you watch your tongue in front of children, old people, donors and such, but then completely turn around and say "Like I care if people think I'm immature."
I know using bad language is not that big a deal, but the fact you hold your tongue in certain social situations suggests you want people to think you went to law school. Not my words. LOL





So you think you can tell Heaven from Hell?
Roger Waters

As everyone with any sense knows, there are various levels of formal and informal dress and manners, speech and writing. I don't text my friends about dinner plans using the exact same language I use in a cover letter seeking a job. Different situations call for different behavior. This is common knowledge. This is not, imho, a formal setting. You are welcome to disagree.

Houndentenor

"Unleash your ferocity on an unsuspecting world." -- Bette Midler

Seriously, I do make every reasonable attempt to not curse in public. However, recently, the words comming out of my mouth at work are quite harsh and I have been known to even drop the dreaded C word. Not that I am proud of it.

The way I see it, no one is going to piss me off to the point where I keep it inside in order to behave like a lady or to the point of having high blood pressure. I would never swear in a meeting at work but, in the "privacy" of my own workstation, why not ....Who am I going to offend ? The lazy guy beside me that keeps doing real estate deals while at work ? The other lazy guy that keeps ordering stuff on ebay rather than work ?

As with most behavior, it depends on the context, the amount of cursing, and the way the person curses.
I think it's difficult to answer "yes" or "no".
There's a time and a place for everything and a time and a place to just be polite and respectful.
Also, it depends on the crowd.

And I will continue to do so. I don't, however, do it in front of board members, or in auditions, or in rehearsals until I have weighed the dynamic and seen/heard whether others are doing it.

But I will fucking talk the way I fucking want to when I'm off the fucking clock. Got it?

FUCK yeah.

=>:>)=


Off-the-clock-ness is Sacred.
Personally, I've LONG felt that cursing/swearing/etc. should be used as one wields a spice-rack:

Judiciously, intentionally, mindfully, and with art.

Once one does that, one can come up with speech as memorable as anything Escoffier or Julia Child whupped up in their kitchens - tasty, mouth-filling, and quite enjoyable, when in the appropriate circumstances.

Then again, there are those times when nothing but a well-placed, heartfelt

muthafuckin'gawdamcocksuckin'shittwatfaceasslickn'fuckheadjizzwipe

will do.


0>;>)=



T.V.

-- I AM the people my parents warned me about. --

My mom is from a small barrio in the Phillipines, and we are all taught the same thing.

"Cursing, Swearing, and 'Socially Inappropriate' are all different things."

Curse:
"Die and burn in hell."
"May your father lose his job and your whole family die from hunger."
"Your child will repeat all of your mistakes."


Swear:
"Whatever happens, I will be your friend."
"I will never forgive you."
"You will die for this."

Socially Inappropriate:
"Barney is a #@#$-#$@%^**, inbred @#$!#$, and it would have been better if he kept his @$$ at home!"

I do not curse or swear. It's wrong or usually ends up hurting people. However, "social inappropriateness" is a haphazard and random set of rules, so I will usually say whatever I want to. I think it's inappropriate to not wear a slip under a sheer dress. I think it's inappropriate to discuss your sex-life in public. No one cares about my rules. So if I want or need to drop an f-bomb, I will.

On a side note, I also think that insults are yet another category. No socially inappropriate language is necessary at all.

Insult:
"You are a rude and ultimately shallow person. You're presence is irritating to me and no longer desirable. Get out of my house and do not consider yourself welcome again."

Frank honestly is probably the worst insult you can give a person in our society.

NJ

I'm usually more offended by people being judgmental of others' (or my) cursing than I am by cursing itself. No, I was not raised in your house by your mother, so no, I don't have the same attitude about swearing as you, whoever you are.

This isn't to say I'm never bothered by the foulmouthed; but in general, when a director drops an f-bomb, it usually comes of as diminishing hierarchy (in my personal experience), whereas colleagues policing other people's language habits just makes the atmosphere tense, even if I don't feel I've been personally "policed".

is that chastising people for this more often than not lead to more cursing not less. I agree with you. I find the control freaks who need to tell everyone else what they can and can't do more annoying that just about anything.

Houndentenor

"Unleash your ferocity on an unsuspecting world." -- Bette Midler

Not because anybody can police another's use of language. But because I think some people (not necessarily you or anybody on this forum) do not think about how they might come across in their communications. What I think of cursing/swearing aside, I suspect there are some people who never have thought about why they use certain language or even it is appropriate. Maybe in some cases their parents didn't allow them to curse so they started doing it as a 13 year old to rebel when out of earshot and it just became a habit. I think I did that for a couple of months, and then realized I didn't want to sound like that. Some people may carry that into their adult conversation just by habit and never even contemplated if this is actually how they want to express themselves.

I was just working with an ESL student who is very advanced. Sh/e has a tendency to use fillers (like basically, okay, right, you know etc.) in his/her speech. Sh/e has been called on for this at the job and has been sent to classes to get rid of it. A lot of people have this habit in speaking and have never been called on it, (may not matter in their business) but I bet if most people did think about it, they would rather sound more intelligent, secure and concise by avoiding those kind of fillers.

Back to cursing--I don't find it morally offensive but I think it generally makes people sound ignorant and raunchy. I don't tell people I think they sound ignorant--but as I said above I draw the line with men who I'm dating or involved with--maybe it is sexist, but I'll overlook girl friends and other friends saying it in my presence but it's a deal breaker with a romantic interest--especially in the beginning. And I'm not going to tell him either that his cursing is one of the reasons I'm not going on a second or third date with him.

But I can't fucking believe we are even having this conversation. And what the fuck is it doing in the main forum?

BQ

"Until last week, I thought legato was a cured meat!"

--Paul Abhelha, Bathroom Divas

This topic has what to do with singing exactly?

Or do we all have to play the "Well what if you're total dumbass who doesn't know how to behave in public? Won't someone please think of the fucking morons????"

Seriously, it's like a disease on this board lately.

-Tytania



****************************************************************************************************
Those who are too weak to follow their own dreams will always find a way to discourage others.
****************************************************************************************************

Oops, I left out a word. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. . . .

Baritonobasso

"The students are overstimulated. Willie, remove all the colored chalk from the classrooms!"

In every other creative field, I think some level of swearing is expected. Ever hang out with actors? Visual artists? Film directors? We are dealing with high level emotion, and high level expression. There are some things that darn and dagnabbit can't express.

You say tomato, I say tom-ah-to, or fuck, or asshole, whatever.

I don't know, around friends, I let it fly. But I can also censor myself when I'm teaching, or in public with strangers or old people.

Why does it matter?

I think it's interesting just how different we all feel about this. I figure "what's the big deal?" Then again, I feel about smoking the way some here feel about swearing. Smoking is disgusting and I look down on the people who do it. Hey, we all have are things.

You say tomayto, I say tomahto.
You say asshole, I say arsehole.
Tomayto, tomahto, asshole, arsehole,
Aw, fuck you.
--Ira Gershwin

Baritonobasso

"The students are overstimulated. Willie, remove all the colored chalk from the classrooms!"

I'd also like to add..... cursing is a FANTASTIC motivator sometimes.

When my friend was in HS, he was in marching band. They just weren't really focusing, sort of sleepwalking through the rehearsal. The band director had had enough. "I don't know what else to do! What can I do to light a fire under you guys right now?" There was silence, and then one of the kids went "Say the F-word!" He shrugged and went "FUCK!" and they had a great rehearsal after that.

Also, what I think is sort of immature is indirectly chastising an adult for cursing on an internet message board.

Please lock this thread and let's set a standard that threads like these belong on the OT Forum, please.

n.t.

For starters, why is one word a "bad" word (i.e. fuck) and another not (i.e. screw), and it's OK to say scheisse but not shit. It's because of an idea someone had that we shouldn't say certain words (sounds like people with sticks up their rectums). Originally, curse words were words pronounced to put a curse on someone by calling on demons to take care of said person and the problem you had with them. As far as today's "curse words", I actually find them rather colorful and see the freeing effect that it has on someone's emotions when using them.

BTW, I've never found that outside of our puritanical country and some of it's holier-than-thou attitudes anybody refrains from using "curse words", nor have I found anyone having a problem hearing them, from the homeless on the street to the most sophisticed socialite.

BTW, for the Republicans out there, please don't flame me. I love my country, but recognize its flaws.

called to mind an article by William Safire, which I thought I had read recently, but after an arduous google search, turns out I had seen almost a year ago, explaining the differences between profanity, expletives, vulgarisms, obscenities, execrations, epithets and imprecations.

The article is called Bleeping Expletives, by William Safire and appeared in the "On Language" column of the New York Times last December

Since we're all on the subject, interested people might enjoy the article!

-----------------------------
http://www.avocationalsinger.blogspot.com
-----------------------------
"It's never too late to be what you might have been."
Dinah Mulock Craik

took the time to write in this thread, thanks. It's interesting to read the different opinions we all have on such a topic. Whether it belongs in the forum or not, oh well.
For those of you who think bad language has anything to do with preference of government, I think you're funny.
I enjoyed the N.Y.Times article, thanks.

I agree that camaraderie does permit usage of '4 letter words' in a more casual way, but I still prefer to not hear it, just my OPINION. When I was a teenager I used 'em a lot, practically everything I said was foul, even to my mom. But as I grew older I recognized that foul language and curse words in general are offensive and disrespectful. I use 'damn' every once in a while, but that is my limit. I know, kinda funny! Perhaps that is why I consider expletives to be 'immature'.

What circumstances warrant foul language? Well, that's for each of us decide.
If you use foul language a little or a lot, that's your decision. But don't sit there and tell me that it's not 'bad' language, because that's just 'bad' education.



So you think you can tell Heaven from Hell?
Roger Waters

There are no "bad words" and there is no such thing as "foul language" unless you mean poorly constructed sentences. I think there are plenty of bad ideas, and can be expressed through any countless number of words. "We ought to build a fence along the border to keep Mexicans out of our country" is an offensive idea to me, despite it's lack of the words "fuck" or "shit" or "asshole" or whatever words you want to deem as "bad" "foul" "offensive" or "unprofessional."

The idea of "dirty words" is all complete nonsense. If you try to approach the rationale of some words being "acceptable" and others "unacceptable" with any sense of reason or logic you will get nowhere.

On the other hand, recognizing the practicality of using different patterns of speech around different audiences is just common sense. I wouldn't talk with my buddies the same way I would talk to a wealthy elderly patron at a fundraising gala dinner, or the same way I would talk to 1st graders at a children's outreach event. Come on.

What on Earth was your point in starting this thread? Is it that you need someone to tell you what you should or shouldn't say, or that you want to tell everyone else what they should or shouldn't say?

-RH

First off I"m not on here trying to prove that the '4 letter words' are bad/foul. I'm sorry but I don't need to prove something that's true, and has been for hundreds of years. Heck, even Bill Shakespeare knew it. To neglect history is just silly on your part.

I'm SIMPLY asking an opinion about what people consider to be immature, rude, or unprofessional. If you look at the thread, most people shared their opinion in a respectful way, realizing that I was just seeking an OPINION (I laughed pretty hard at the POOP thing). If you want to be offended by my inquiry, so be it. I shared my opinion, and I expected others to disagree, but no need to get your panties in a bundle.







So you think you can tell Heaven from Hell?
Roger Waters