As far as I can tell, Windows 2000 cannot run KiSS Cel WorkShop 2, even if you run it on Win95 mode. The same goes for Windows XP.
This is REAL funny, because after finding out that Windows XP doesn't like KCWS2, he installed 2000 for me. You can still convert bmps to cels, but you can't work on the cnf.
Megan
Posted on Feb 5, 2002, 8:33 PM from IP address 24.70.95.205
Still no power. With help my entry to the Hoppie Toad coloring contest went in. It is a KiSS set, rather smaller than I wanted but I had computer problems last month. It was hard to design a closet with so little space, my solution is not exactly original but still clumsy. The doll can be downloaded at:
Please give me a vote while you are there. The image posted is a little off. It is posted in gif format with background black set to invisible - she really does have eyelashes in the KiSS set.
Posted on Feb 4, 2002, 9:18 AM from IP address 208.129.6.91
Hi. I'm sorta new to kiss, and I'm having a bit of trouble. See, I can't seem to figure out timers... heh, I probably sound really pathetic right now -^_^-. But, anyways, this is my problem: I have this giant eyeball baloon thing and I want it to blink. I made four cels for the blinking sequence. I have a basic idea of how the coding goes, but I don't think I have it quite right. Could somebody tell me how this timer stuff works, or tell me who can? Thanks.
-Ghostie
Posted on Feb 2, 2002, 8:53 PM from IP address 209.14.89.171
okay, blinking can be done either with timer() or randomtimer(). these do more or less the same thing, but randomtimer will make your eyeball thing blink at a randomized time, which looks more natural. if you want it to look mechinical, then you want to use timer()
here it is with randomtimer
let's pretend yout .cels are called blink1.cel, blink2.cel, blink3.cel, and blink4.cel.
in the beginning of your code, under ;@initialize(), you will need to type
that will mean that none of them show up when the doll loads.
then, under ;@begin() , you want to start your timer.
like this
;@randomtimer(1,1000,5000)
that means that this is timer #1, and that it will go off anytime between one second (1000 milliseconds) and 5 seconds (5000 milliseconds) after the doll "begins."
then you want to type
;@alarm(1)
;@map("blink1.cel")
;@timer(2,200)
that means that the things directly below it will happen when alarm 1 goes off. here, it maps the first blinking .cel and then tells timer number 2 to go off after 200 milliseconds, or 1/5 second.
i will type out the rest of the code just to continue
notice how i end again with randomtimer 1-- that will start the cycle all the way back from the beginning. unless oyu want to re-start the cycle, don't ever re-use a number. also notice that the second time, i did 3000 for the shortest time-- you don't want your doll to blink again immediately!
i hope that helps
tea
Posted on Feb 2, 2002, 11:12 PM from IP address 66.108.105.52
i have started work on a 1980s fashion doll. i was 7 when the 80s ended, so i don't remember very much. does anyone have any good links to fashion sites, or suggestions of what i can add to her? (i think her name will be Yvonne.) i would like to especailly do a lot of punk stuff, and fancy dress.
thanks!
Posted on Jan 21, 2002, 11:25 PM from IP address 129.110.39.49
What a great idea! I love the 80s even though I was only 7 when they ended, too. In any case, google.com is your friend when searching for anything. I think girls in the 80s wore pony tails on the side of their heads and New Kids on the Block t shirts. Big earrings, too. Meh, I may be way off.
Posted on Jan 22, 2002, 1:05 AM from IP address 63.125.65.36
is 1989 at the EARLIEST...which isn't really the 80s anymore.
i did some 1980's stuff for the poodle doll; i've thought about doing a 1980s doll but i like doing older clothing.
for 1980s pop fashion, look at the go-gos and the bangles. cyndi lauper, madonna...also watch reruns of family ties for more conservative "normal" fashion. if you want male pop fashion look for max headroom & old michael jackson stuff.
mini skirts, stone washed denim in pastel colors, bandannas tied all over (punky brewster is a 1980s child), face paint, buttons on everything and rhinestones. suspenders, thanks to mork & mindy. oh, also watch three's company.
the 1980s were also the days of old-school rap, grafitti, and breakdancing. jogging suits, gold chains, and dark glasses with adidas sneakers. big earrings are one thing unoriginal got right- made of acrylic. dangly and all shapes. huge exercise sweatshirts with leggings and headbands (see flashdance).
also remember that the john hughes movies & molly ringwald peaked in the 1980s, so those are a good place to get normal teen fashion.
a good place to look at punk clothing is the movie "the decline of western civilization" you want part 1, made in 1981, not "the metal years" or the newer one with the "punks" who are my age.
tea
Posted on Jan 22, 2002, 9:29 AM from IP address 64.59.27.162
Remember tho' that punk, insofar as the "classic" Sex Pistols look goes, is typically associated with the seventies. "The Look" morphed into new wave, or new romanticism in the early eighties; in the realm of music seek out stuff like: Culture Club, Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet, Visage, Adam Ant, or Bow Wow Wow.
Another fashion tragedy to recall is the pastel suit with rolled sleeves, ala Don Johnson.
Posted on Jan 22, 2002, 10:20 AM from IP address 63.60.201.200
Hmmmm... We lived in different areas in the 80s, Tea, so I'm guessing that's why there are a few differences in what you stated and what I'm about to state. (I lived in central Illinois, not too far from the U of I Urbana-Champaign campus. I lived much closer to Danville, Illinois, though!)
Wow... This is a bit hard for me to remember. (I don't seem to remember much of the 80s, even though I was born in 78.) I remember striped shirts that were too big for me. People usually wore some shirts hanging off of one shoulder. Mismatching earrings were big, especially when one was a stud earring and one was dangly. Tapered jeans were in. Tight-rolled jeans were in. ack Bright pink lips were in, and they were usually paired with combinations of purple, pink, blue, and green eyeshadow. hehehe and triangles of funky colored blush. Rainbow bangs were in. (Big, crunchy, hairsprayed, teased bangs... *_*) Trapper Keepers were really big. (I know, they don't really count as fashion, but...) If you'd like to see some semi-80s fashions, I would reccommend watching the Baby-Sitter's Club videos, even though they were made in the early 90s. There really wasn't that much of a difference in fashion. Watch Punky Brewster... Ummm... Three's Company would be a better reference for the late 70s, rather than the 80s...
PhreakPhantasia
Posted on Feb 2, 2002, 11:57 AM from IP address 172.159.151.12
Hmmmm... We lived in different areas in the 80s, Tea, so I'm guessing that's why there are a few differences in what you stated and what I'm about to state. (I lived in central Illinois, not too far from the U of I Urbana-Champaign campus. I lived much closer to Danville, Illinois, though!)
Wow... This is a bit hard for me to remember. (I don't seem to remember much of the 80s, even though I was born in 78.) I remember striped shirts that were too big for me. People usually wore some shirts hanging off of one shoulder. Mismatching earrings were big, especially when one was a stud earring and one was dangly. Tapered jeans were in. Tight-rolled jeans were in. ack Bright pink lips were in, and they were usually paired with combinations of purple, pink, blue, and green eyeshadow. hehehe and triangles of funky colored blush. Rainbow bangs were in. (Big, crunchy, hairsprayed, teased bangs... *_*) Trapper Keepers were really big. (I know, they don't really count as fashion, but...) If you'd like to see some semi-80s fashions, I would reccommend watching the Baby-Sitter's Club videos, even though they were made in the early 90s. There really wasn't that much of a difference in fashion. Watch Punky Brewster... Ummm... Three's Company would be a better reference for the late 70s, rather than the 80s...
PhreakPhantasia
Posted on Feb 2, 2002, 12:05 PM from IP address 172.159.151.12
I remember neon EVERYTHING. In Grade One, my neon socks and "Don't Worry, Be Happy" shirt were the height of coolness. At one point, polka dots were a big thing too. Don't forget big hair and gobs of bright make up.
Megan
Posted on Jan 22, 2002, 6:21 PM from IP address 24.70.95.205
don't worry be happy came out in 1988...which 1980s do you want to do? the 80s effectively ended when reagan left office at the end of 1988 so that's pretty cusp. as far as i remember, the "don't worry be happy" tee shirts and their popular long-island "don't worry act jappy" knockoffs were late 1989. remember, the simpsons are vintage 1988-89-- the question to try to split up the decades is really, "do you think the simpsons are 80s?" i would say, no. the creation of the simpsons & concomitant death of "family ties," the sitcom which epitomized the 1980s, mark the coming of the 1990s.
i personally draw the line at when i entered middle school, which was also 1988.
tee shirts which are 1980s are "frankie say relax" "where's the beef?" "fido dido" and so on. if the doll is a little girl, she must have eva joia gitano matching separates. you can also check out 3-2-1 contact! and square one children's television shows for more help on the kids' clothes front.
other 1980's tv to watch are "who's the boss" and "dallas." also the 1980s version of the newlywed game.
tea
Posted on Jan 22, 2002, 6:58 PM from IP address 66.108.105.52
As you might imagine, this thread is cracking me up, big time. & no, I'll not step in to "set the record straight" however I'd like to make another point. There are functionally two kinds of accuracy; historical accuracy & mnemonic accuracy. It's only natural that when people think of the cultural impedimentia of an era (albeit only a brief one) they will privilege the last part of it, the part relatively the most clear to them. Mediaculture itself erases human memory leaving what is individual & subjective, & what is collectively given to the Record, & often consecrated in later-done period pieces, tributes, &c. So the Q becomes is this really about about how people looked or is it about what we remember of how people looked; they're not the same thing.
Posted on Jan 23, 2002, 2:25 PM from IP address 4.60.15.230
Just look at pics of Madonna from when she was just getting popular. GOOD examples. Other than that, just think of sweatshirts with the necks cut out and the sleeves cut off, lots of lace, and POOF-iness! Oh, and hairbands. ^_^
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 7:59 PM from IP address 208.159.121.190
depending on how formal you want to go, see the movie "pretty in pink" (a molly ringwald prom movie) and "girls just wanna have fun" (a movie about dancers). see if you can find pictures of the "barbie and the rockers" line of barbie dolls from about 1986-87. pouf skirts were a big dress-up thng, as were little bolero/skirt suits. everything had shoulder pads. there were a lot of tee-shirt and sweater dresses, too.
tea
Posted on Jan 22, 2002, 11:09 AM from IP address 64.59.27.162
To this day, there are people out there who carry on the Barbie and the Rockers vs. Jem and the Holograms thing. There are web pages dedicated to this "rivalry."
(Extra junk: I remember leg warmers, slouch socks, t-shirts tied off on one side, and Cinderella band shirts.)
-Jessi
Posted on Jan 22, 2002, 7:05 PM from IP address 204.196.181.183
thanks for all the responses! i remember bright neon stuff being more late late 80s/early 90s.. i had a cool neon fanny pack.. roller skating and skiing were big too, right? she has roller skates.. i don't know if the pinkish hair is good though.
i had those checkered keds. AND i had roller-derby rollerskates.
the hair looks fine; it looks like the hair that the girl in flight of the navigator.
nice. there aren't really enough clothes to tell that it's absolutely 1980s fashion.
the jelly bracelets are good. what about jelly shoes? remember those? and charm bracelets with the plastic charms to trade, and those really bizarre pencil toppers.
if you wanna do toys, do fluppies. she should probably also have a koosa. and a can of new coke.
and ET stuff. with reese's pieces.
tea
Posted on Jan 23, 2002, 4:30 PM from IP address 64.59.27.162
she looks so cute! and so far definately a good start from what I remember (i still have biker shorts from the 80s. my stirrup pants are long gone, but then i'm a tad taller, and i never did like them). i also like the pink hair (and agree with tea on the jelly shoes thing, that was one of the things that sprang to mind when this whole thread got started). wasn't there this thing with off the shoulder tee shirts, and layered so you could see the colour of the one underneath? The 80s were before I really got interested in clothes much, so I only paid attention to some of the fashions. i think you can draw on a whole slew of movies for inspiration for this one, a lot of movies that came out in the 80s were really big on showcasing 80s fashions (i just recently caught part of back to the future 2 while at someone's house, the 80s visions of the future were also really wacky).
i had a feeling ao was sitting back having a lot of fun at this thread
Posted on Jan 23, 2002, 8:38 PM from IP address 209.179.229.85
>i had a feeling ao was sitting back having a lot of fun at this thread
Well to be honest I was briefly tempted to dig out the pic from my author's single appearance in "W" circa 1981 or so. ^_~ [gosh, he was cute then {sigh}]
Posted on Jan 24, 2002, 8:56 AM from IP address 4.60.12.21
... is a webcomic which is both immensely funny and full of 80's clothes. Sandy's outfits are fabulous. The artist is also pretty friendly, so if you were to email her about sources for 80's designs, she might well be helpful.
Dissent among KiSS artists, and Anti - OW sentiment.
by Jade (no login)
Ok... SO... In the last year we have seen a lot of this. But, for the most part, people have taken to forums and discussed and sorted it out. The community remains fairly strong in it's ability to support it's varying members. Lots of people contribute to informing, consoling, and provoking thought and consideration.
However... Starting with the Anti-Cute sentiment, I'm finding that some of the new popular artists are expressing angst... without bothering with the community. It would appear they do so out of fear of backlash, or worse - being proved wrong or incompetant.
The issue? The excuse? That the BKP is too "competetive".
I have never found it to be so. However, I approach it somewhat differently. There are the dolls I do for myself, for my own enjoyment. But I often try to create something I hope my fans will like. I want to produce something my fans will enjoy. I had used download counts in the past to gauge what was popular with KiSS users, and tried to cater to it (unless I was doing something simple because I wanted to do it). So for me, voting is simple a clearer way to understand how people view my dolls, and what they do and don't want to see. The voting system as it currently stands in vastly more informational. The feedback is much easier to understand.
However, the new artists, who are simply doing the dolls as a hobby and not a means to entertain their fans... For them, the voting system is something very different. They view it as something that judges them, and almost judges them personally. They take the voting to heart, and think people are using it against them.
I think a vital part of this that people may be afraid to discuss is their age. Many of them are still quite young. I try not to take that into account for the most part - because I recall only too well how difficult it is not to be taken seriously because "you're just a kid". However, what they are experiencing now is... in my opinion... a lack of experience, a lack of knowledge, a lack of understanding of how different aspects of the web, art, consumerism, and so many other things actually work. I also don't think they're trying to be ignorant or unaware. I think they're doing the best they can to catch up. I also think many of them are quite bright and advanced for their age. But I think they suffer from some of the thoughts and behaviors of their age.
And that's terribly frustrating because they won't seek out the community to help them understand. There are many of us who would happily relate our experience and knowledge to help them understand. But, we, being the adults and the ones seemingly in control... we're the enemy. We're the ones who supposedly can't understand them. As if we were never in their shoes, as if we never had ideals and feelings to express.
KiSS is becoming more and more something enjoyed by a younger audience of artists. Yet they are somewhat new for the most part - not having a clue about the history of KiSS, or the experience with views, ideals, ideas, and fads that have come thru the KiSS community.
Those that have such staunch position seem to be so young, and so inexperienced. They seem to be making these decisions based on their feelings alone. Feelings that have come about because they aren't aware of the nature of the whole entity, or at least, the other things going on that drive what they object to.
And even tho they've been aware of the need for OW to go sub, they're still hurt by it. Hurt, I think, because they don't yet understand why it must be, and what the reality is behind it.
And being against voting, well, if I were young and idealistic, I suppose I could see their point, but they don't seem to be able to grasp why voting is an intergral and nessecary part of the BKP.
So... Ok, I think that's most of my points. And I say all this wondering if I'm now alienating many of my fans. I fear that they will see this not as a hope for their growth, but as an attack on their age and feelings. I don't say all this attempting to embarras them or hurt them... I say all this with the hope that they will be able to learn and grow, and get to a place where these things won't be such emotional issues for them, and for the fans that are also artists - that they will find a freer way of expressing themselves without worry or concern over what people think, or what they think voting says about them and their skills.
Posted on Jan 26, 2002, 3:49 PM from IP address 63.231.22.143
I think you raise an interesting point but I'm not sure how big of an issue it is.
For the most part, the only people who seem to have been so horribly upset about the votes on their dolls have been children 13 and under. It's easy to understand how someone that young would have a harder time knowing the difference between ratings and being personally judged so it's understandable that they might have their feelings easily hurt.
And, since these are very young children, their dolls aren't going to be all that terrific. They may be very talented for their young age but they're still young so their dolls can't "keep up" with dolls made by grown-ups. The votes won't be as high or as frequent as they are for others' dolls.
As far as the young children go, I'm perfectly willing to remove the voting from their dolls but I would hardly expect older artists to ask for the same type of coddling so I'm not very worried about it at this point.
Posted on Jan 26, 2002, 6:19 PM from IP address 207.195.139.200
the problem isn't that the BKP is competitive. dov isn't competitive and e has tried to communicate over and over again that people shouldn't see themelves as being in competition with other artists.
the problem is that the kids themselves are competitive. these are the same kids who are of the generation where their parents kill each other over after-school sports; they have to compete in chool for grades, they had to compete in day-care for attention. forgive me if i'm being overanalytical but nobody ever told them they had to compare their work with other people's, and CERTAINLY no one told them that they had to compare their popularity-- except themselves. every comment on popularity or ratings being important or fulfilling that i have heard has come from the mouth--erm, keyboard, of someone under 18. other people have commented on its importance or its effectiveness, but i don't know any grown-ups who "vote down" dolls or who seem to see people's acceptance of their kis-work as their acceptance of them as a person.
the younger kids seem to have their own community & seem to think that the "grown ups" don't necc. want to be a part of it. i have had to tell younger kids time and time again that if they want a serious answer to a question that they need to ask someone w/more experience and that we are happy to help them. & usually after they have done it they are pretty happy, but they would never go and do it on their own and many of them don't seem to realixe that there is another kis community that is made of of older,wiser people and kids alike. i've been able to insinuate myself into the kid-stuff on occasion, i think because i still consider myself a kid, but there's an obvious generation gap & there are times when i just can't communicate with them. some of these kids only talk about the validity of their work in terms of EA & EC or ratings, and frankly, that's a problem with them and their little social system, not with the BKP. do any of the older artists (i don't mean age wise, but people who were kis'ing for a considerable time before the instigation of subscriptions) act like this?
i also feel like there are many reasons to remove oneself from voting. i've considered it. but that isn't because i don't like the idea and i would still vote on other people's dolls; it's because i don't like the fact that about once a month or so i get an email that says something like "i'm telling all my friends to vote against your doll because you did X." that's not the BKP's fault, that's the fault of these very same kids about whom jade is voicing concern.
i don't know, it still may be a decent idea to do something. again, i think possibly making the free subscriptions dependent on something besides votes (but what?) would be helpful. these kids wouldn't feel the way they do about ratings and competitiveness if the part that they see as being competitive were "just for fun" and they only felt like they were competing with themselves. again, frankly, killing free subs flat out would solve this completely. something dov said on the ML struck me-- he said there are 700 subscribers and 400 people getting free subs as artists. aren't there only about 400-500 artists making KiSS dolls? i know other people who aren't KiSS artists who are receiving subs, but it seems like this is't some real privilege being handed out only to people who are doing a great deal to help support OW, which was how it was communicated to us originally. i've gotten way more time than i would think i deserve. i'm trying to make myself deserve it by doing reviews, but still...of course then we have to worry, would some artists stop making dolls completely or stop sending them to BKP, and would that convince some paying subscribers to drop out? i don't know.
okay, i have to think about this some more
tea
Posted on Jan 26, 2002, 10:28 PM from IP address 66.108.105.52
Jenniko-chan has a saying: "Those with an issue have that issue themselves."
I think you're correct, tea. The people who are complaining that the BKP is too competitive actually just too competitive themselves. Projection.
It's also probably the reason the younger KiSS clique doesn't want to associate with *"grown ups"*. They say it's because the "grown ups" won't take them seriously but will simply assume that, because they are young, their opinions don't matter. It's like some saying "All white people are racist." Ageism can go both ways. I feel that it's better to risk ageism in an attempt for better communication than to avoid contact altogether out of the fear of the possibility of ageism.
Posted on Jan 26, 2002, 11:34 PM from IP address 207.195.139.200
I don't neccessarily think that the BKP is competitive, but there is a lot of need to conform if one wants to get good votes. I put a lot of work (30-40 hours per doll) into my dolls and I expect ratings as high as other dolls on the same level. But I consistently get lower ratings because my stuff doesn't conform to the typical idea of cute. It would be different if people told me why they voted no, but because all I get usually is positive feedback comments (I mean, I do ask for constructive criticism, I want to improve as an artist) but all I see is that I get lower votes so I have to assume that I'm getting downvoted because people don't like my style, and that's why I hate the voting system. EAs I can deal with because Dov is fairly objective and does value creativity (possibly, starting to seem that way) on occasion, but the voting isn't telling me anything. It's not helping me improve as an artist and is just making me look crappy in comparison to other artists I feel I'm on the same level as. I've seriously thought about changing my style if this really is what people want. After all, as far as I can see the only thing that voting is good for is showing the artist what the people really want to see. In the dolls where Kimiki has tried something different she's gotten crappy votes, and I feel the same way sometime...almost like people want me to conform...which is a problem I've had to deal with in real life, too.
I'm not a competitive person, I mean, I was always the kid in gym class who flat-out refused to play sports (I got sent to the principals office so often), and I'm not jealous of Kimiki as Dov has accused me of being...as far as I'm concerned I'm getting to the same level as her artistically so it doesn't bother me. I just don't like the fact that the voting system basically rewards conformity. Just because I try to vote objectively doesn't mean anyone else does, and this is what bothered me. I mean, sure, if I wanted to I could go in and vote "no" on all the cutesy dolls out there, but I don't, because I can see if they're well done or not...so this is why it pisses me off, the little kids don't vote fairly.
It's not that I think that EAs and ratings are any reflection of me or my work, because I know that all of my dolls after Hazael have been really well-done, I mean, I haven't felt so proud of something like that forever...it's just that I do want to reach a wide audience and I feel that I deserve ratings just as high as some of the cute kiss artists...ahh...fuck it, I'm not making any sense. I'm probably gonna get a lot of flames for this, but I don't care, you all think I'm an asshole anyway, heh.
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 12:22 PM from IP address 66.24.231.146
I can certainly see what you're getting out and you make some good points.
I agree that the voting isn't the most informative feedback possible but I disagree with your statement that it isn't feedback at all. Perhaps it would be more accurate it to that it is feedback which you personally do not find useful.
However, I think you're focusing too much on the percentage and not enough on the approval number. Or maybe you're not aware of what the approval number means.
People can vote Yes, No, or Maybe. The approval number starts at zero and, each time someone votes Yes, it goes up by one. Each time someone votes Maybe, it goes up by 1/2. If someone votes No, the approval number doesn't change at all. So it's impossible for someone to "vote down" the approval number.
The percentage number is the approval divided by the total number of votes.
approval = yes + (maybe / 2)
percent = approval / (yes + maybe + no)
For example, Kimiki's Kakumeiko doll received a high approval number but a much lower percentage than dolls in the same approval range. This would suggest that, while many people thought the doll was well constructed, there were also people who voted against despite the well-executed design of the doll. Most likely, the lower percentage was the result of a more subjective emotional reaction to the controversial content of the doll rather than the objective quality of the doll.
This is oversimplifying but, in general, I find that percentages are subjective and the approval number is objective. That's why the "Top 20" and "All-Time" lists are sorted by approval number instead of percentage.
Of course, it's not as useful as actual constructive criticism but voting doesn't stop anyone from writing to you if they're inclined to do so.
And, just for the record, Rick, I did not accuse you of being jealous of Kimiki. I simply noted that you repeatedly said things like "I hope this doll beats Kimiki's dolls! Not that I'm jealous." and "I'm not jealous but I bet the only reason my dolls don't get better votes is because they're not like Kimiki's doll." Since you seemed to go to such lengths to repeatedly deny that you were jealous of Kimiki, even though I had not suggested you were, I asked if you were really certain of that. I mean, if you're really not jealous, why keep bringing it up?
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 5:57 PM from IP address 207.195.139.200
If I just randomly said, "I hope people don't just blindly worship this doll like all her others", you really would think I was jealous, which is why I always clarify. I do feel as though her dolls have been favored for a long time and it's a sad fact that someone so worshipped by all the littleminded cyutites gets her actual creative stuff fairly ignored...see Kakumeiko and Chikuko...the artists I'm jealous of are the ones that consistently show some actual creative thought going on and have real talent to back it up, like Glyndon and Tea...Kimiki's just the one that everyone mindlessly obsesses over, I'm more annoyed at the fact that she gets to be pretty much the kiss doll representative when her dolls really aren't all that diverse...not that they're bad but I never saw them as being all that innovative, aside from her more creative dolls it's easy to clump her together with a lot of the other cyute dolls....she kind of reminds me of a kiss doll equivalent of umm...Speilberg...makes "safe" films that everyone likes, and the less accessible stuff gets kind of ignored...but he's basically the number one filmmaker out there, and it's all because he's the "safe" choice...I guess what this is all boiling down to is the fact that in pretty much any form, conformity is what sells. Music, comics, movies, games...and they're being targeted towards younger and younger audiences. Anyway...I've gotta go do stuff...damn I hope I don't get any flames for this >___<
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 9:41 PM from IP address 66.24.231.146
Simplistic but not entirely inaccurate. So then, dear lad, the Q becomes; Do you WANT to be Spielberg? I think not. I think maybe based on what you've posted, you'd like, for once in your life, to be really really popular. But once you have it, that "moment of joy", it will be gone; frankly I'd rather pass on that & be where you are now, just plain good.
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 9:55 PM from IP address 4.43.224.189
I guess when I say Kimiki I'm using her as a spokesman (well, spokesgirl) for the entire cute kiss genre...after all, she is the most popular (aside from possibly Silent Angel but I put SA in a much different class because of some of her designs...very creative styling while staying within the genre...redifining it at the same time). It's almost as if cute is "right" and everything that's not cute is in some way not as acceptable...*I* don't really feel this way, if something is good I like it no matter what genre it's in, same with movies and music...but I hear so many people (experienced kiss artists too, like Aragonite and Issei) saying, "oh, cute is the most important thing in a doll" and it's almost as if that's all they care about...and also a lot of very young kids are now into kiss so of course they can't look at things as objectively as those with more experience in the subject...and I still do get a lot of emails like, "oh, your dolls are okay but you should make cuter ones, then I'd like them..." from the younger artists, which is a poor way for them to represent their sub-community...there may be intelligent cute-fans out there but as a whole they just aren't objective enough, most likely due to age and the fact that "cute" (of course I'm speaking in general terms now) is mainstream and, let's face it, kids nowadays are raised to think that what is popular (see Britney and NSYNC, and Sailor Moon...cute is popular) is what is acceptable...young kids (and teenagers too) don't want to face not being accepted so they see that cute is popular and focus on that side of kiss...heck, my first doll was scarily cutesy because that was what I thought everyone wanted to see...I still got more feedback on her than I did on most of my other dolls...but then I felt guilty afterwards because I knew I could have been more creative, she felt like such a cop-out...my dolls still aren't as creative as I'd like them to be, I have a really hard time with it because my artistic skills aren't up to the skill I'd probably need to get my ideas out...I'm rambling but that's kind of the way my mind works, so get used to it, hehe...anyway it's society in general that is the problem with how people view art (if one considers kiss art...I've heard different views on it), people really do want to conform and seek out the sorts of things that everyone else is doing/interested in...which is why it's hard for people who want to try and change the way a system like that works...certain things too radical won't get noticed, or that's my experience at least...eh...
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 10:44 PM from IP address 66.24.231.146
Okay Rick, I think we've got it. You style yourself a non-conformist. You have to consider, however, that conformity is the norm. It always has been, it always will be. It's a fact of life as surely as is death, and as impossible to conquer. There will always be non-conformists, in fact without them there would be little growth . . . but if enough non-conformists get together in support of one another it becomes conformity. (Just look at the Punk and Grunge music revolutions for examples of this). Popularity has a price, and that price is usually the too oft inept attempts by your fans to duplicate your style.
I like Cute. This does not make me a conformist, nor does it signify an unwillingness to enjoy other genres of art. I am, by and large a non-conformist. But I will not avoid a particular popular work that I enjoy simply for the sake of non-conformity. (This is not to say that you do, I am simply allowing you a glimpse at my own methodology of passive non-conformity) My tastes generally make me non-conformist, not the other way around.
You seem very bitter in your posts about the "Cyute" trend, which leads me to believe that you seek a similar popularity with your own style based solely on merit. Our society does not reward on the basis of merit alone, but on a system of popular opinion. Great skill is not enough to gain mass accolades. The audience must exist for the work to be popular.
As with all things popularity is fickle at best, and the mood of the people will always evolve, leaving the dross of imitative folly in its wake and carrying with it only the best of the era recently gone by. Thus truly great things gain the attention they deserve, and all others lie forgotten in a sea of mediocrity.
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 11:36 PM from IP address 64.77.157.175
>{...}Our society does not reward on the basis of merit alone, but on a system of popular opinion.{...}
Not nec. Fine art doesn't work that way. Kis is both a "native" or "popular" art-form & also a microcosm of a more serious type of art. What you say in full about it in terms of being a popular art-form is mostly correct. However it also works the other way where a small % of people have highly developed taste & the best work is made either by or for them. The public gets around to it later (sometimes much later). I've told RC that he can shoot for either the praise of the cogniscenti or the praise of the masses, it's almost impossible to do both at once (Dov may be the only one who can work that trick consistently).
RC wasn't just talking about "popularity" & "conformity", he was also discussing "quality" & "imagination". So my point is that the Doll World here is not just a mirror of pop society but of art society too, different laws & standards apply to each aspect & it would be great if one didn't have to choose between them yet usually that's exactly what happens.
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 11:55 PM from IP address 4.3.93.57
Coldboot makes some excellent points here. Perhaps it is not the voting system itself which is flawed but society as a whole. You can grouse all you want about how frustrating it is that you can't be popular and non-conformist at the same time. In fact, please do! The world needs shaking up whenever the sediment gets too thick.
But you can't have your cake and eat it to.
You can deliberately try to break the mold, push the envelope, and move beyond conformist views. If you do this AND become popular, the group with which you are popular will conform to you.
That's the very position with which Kimiki has been cursed. As a person, she tries to be very non-conformist. Observe her "Anti-Twinkie" stance against cliquish elitism. Marvel at her controversial anti-nationalism and her sacrilegious rants. For all her efforts, she's the very person you now see as the object of greatest conformity in KiSS.
On the other hand, she is not the only popular artist and it's inaccurate to think that all popular artists work solely in a "Cyute" style. Certainly, cuteness is more common than otherwise - what else would you really expect from dolls? But not all dolls are "cute"-oriented.
And your dolls, Rick, are mostly within the top 1%-3% of all dolls. Is that just a fluke or, maybe, does it mean that your dolls really are appreciated after all?
You know what, Rick? You are popular. Not as popular as Kimiki but certainly more popular than a good *600+* other KiSS artists. Do you really have to be #1 for it to count?
Posted on Jan 30, 2002, 11:57 PM from IP address 207.195.139.200
I'm with Dov. Rick is my idol. And, although I adore Kimiki for, well, Kimiki, I like Rick more. *shhhh!*
Pushing the envelope generally equates resentment from the masses. Look at MADONNA. (Sorry, Madonna is on my brain because I'm doing a project over her in art...) When she published " the Sex Book", she COULD NOT shake the label everyone gave her. (I think you can imagine what that is...) Throughout time, going against the grain makes you hated by some.
BY SOME.
I personally ADORE Rick, and I think all of his dolls hold this certian flair that I just don't see elsewhere. Rick, you are respected SO MUCH by many artists. ^_- Including Kimiki, I'm willing to bet.
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 8:19 PM from IP address 208.159.121.190
I very much admire Rick's work, and I tell him so, often. His dolls are undeniably good and I would say definitely deserve the popularity they are getting.
In Rick's defense, from my chats with him I don't really think that his problem is largely wanting to be #1 popular. It's probably more complicated than that. But I don't know him well enough to make any guesses ^-^; What do you say, Rick?
~Kimiki
Posted on Feb 1, 2002, 12:09 AM from IP address 24.77.199.154
as far as rick is concerned, his dolls are very good. i don't know a single person who has decent taste who dislikes his work.
and if you look at his numbers on BKP, yes, his dolls are extremely popular. most of the recent ones have votes above 80; i haven't gone back and looked at the others but that is a ton.
but i think what's happening is he's getting negative feedback sent to him directly, and that makes it feel like nobody likes his work. it doesn't matter how good your vote count number is, if you get people emailing you saying, "you work sucks because it isn't cute," then that can color your perception of how everyone else is receiving your work. i know that it's really nice when someone tells me they like one of my dolls, especially when it is a nice private note and unexpected, but it's very disappointing when someone emails me and says, "your work sucks," or "why can't you make cute dolls?" and i think part of why rick's response involves naming kimiki is that he's gotten letters that don't just say, "why can't you make cute dolls?" but "why can't you make cute dolls *like kimiki's*?" it has nothing to do with kimiki. it has to do with the fact that a lot of people use kimiki's name interchangeably with "cute."
there isn't a ton of difference between an 85% doll and a 90% doll, as far as numbers go. it's like two or three people voting. but if someone writes to you and says "i'm telling all my friends to vote no on your doll." and your doll has an 87% rating which then sinks over a couple of days to an 84% rating, the gap can seem huge, especially when someone has bothered to single you out by private email just to tell you that your work sucks and without offering constructive criticism.
and no matter how many times you shrug it off and say , "okay, that person is just stupid," there's always that feeling that if someone doesn't tell you what's wrong, well, then there's really nothing you can improve and they'll hate your work no matter what you do. & so you wind up feeling like *you're* not good enough, not like they're just bastards. when i've gotten nasty emails like that, i've written back and asked what they thought could be improved and what they didn't like, and i have never once gotten an email back.
but even the most popular artists get hate mail; maybe they do more than others. rick's dolls are a little strange, so they must stand out, and that in itself is enough to draw attention from people who are going to write nasty letters, especially from people who have been forced to conform in their own lives to the point that they look at rick's work and think, "nonconformity must be bad, therefore this is bad." there are kids who, if they were drawing the things you draw, rick, would be send to therapy twice a week and have to talk to their priest. or something. so they may just be jealous that you are allowed to express yourself and that you get a positive reaction when you do, at least in this community if not elsewhere. there are a lot of kids who would kill for that.
i love kimiki's dolls. they're not all my taste but she brings a sense of design to KiSS that most artists, even exceptional ones, ignore, and that are never carried over by her imitators. the problem, i think, is that while many people recognize that what kimiki does is good enough that they copy it, they don't really understand what part of it is good and they wind up copying the fashion, which has little to do with it.
tea
Posted on Feb 1, 2002, 8:35 PM from IP address 66.108.105.52
I don't know if it's popular opinion, or just Rick's view, that I try to conform. But really I don't at all. I try to just be myself and do what I like. I liked cute for a long time. So I did cute for a long time. I'm getting sick of cute now, so I'm trying other things. Popularity, positive feedback, high votes, even Editors Award are not things I think of at all, except maybe when I'm curious to see how an idea went over with people in general. But I don't fuss and worry over low votes and I don't do what people want to try to get high votes. I never have...
Posted on Feb 1, 2002, 12:17 AM from IP address 24.77.199.154
Oh ho. & now it comes out. ^_~ The frustration you feel is in fact on behalf of the machinations of an unjust system? A system which does not seem to recognize or reward quality, imagination, or truly intelligent creativity? So, o.k. I've already tried to explain that it's not the only system in place; & while you mention two as "experienced artists" I & some of the others can easily recall their first halting efforts & compare them to hundreds & hundreds of extant Sets (as opposed to the thousands now). Everything's relative. Do you know Mian? He is as close as you're likely to come to the one who invented Kis (more than 10 years ago now) & he still posts here from t2t. Relative. Some of us still recall Asia de Garde's death like it was yesterday (oh, & on that note will try to make the Sets from her Memorial Pg available soon, the orig HTML seems to have been lost).
So what do you really want? To find the recognition you deserve, even if it is in quality rather than quantity? Or to try to get it both ways? Or to change the system you see as unjust?
Let's assume that at this juncture anyway (I can't see your future but I absoultely guarantee you there will be changes, both in your circumstances & 'tude) -- it is this last thing which truly concerns you: changing a messed-up system. We'll hold off for a moment in examining how messed-up it really is. That would entail asking if people are entitled to opinions even if they are uninformed & taste even if it is poor or underdeveloped. While we might want to say they aren't (on some empiracal level), in fact any attempt to enforce standards, even if they're for the best, genuinely uplifting, maybe somehow liberating, will either produce work which itself becomes mediocre according to the "good-for-you syndrome", or will become marginalized in its own impossibly esoteric or talmudic internal dialectics -- alternately the attempt itself will prove coercive & draconian no matter how good the intentions which motivate it. The only conclusion a cursory study of history (at least) will allow is that it's just better not to go there.
O.k. so then the only alternative is to influence public taste & sentiment from w/in. We must accept that people are entitled to their taste & opinions even if they suck &/or are retrograde or even infantile. It's their taste & we don't & can't tell them what to think & feel. However could we possibly influence them to grow beyond themselves? To see a broader, deeper, more complex & ultimately more interesting world than the one they now perceive? Yes... maybe.
To do this you will not be able to either stand in the street & wave a sign nor scream the truth at people even if you have it; they won't listen. You must do what fine artists who wish to truly impact society do, not hector, nor waste time w/ hollow demonstrations, that is merely lip-svc & almost immed forgotten; no, instead you must sabotage, traduce, re-purpose, redirect & most importantly... SUBVERT the standards you wish to supplant.
So how could that be done in this case? The two most obvious approaches involve dialectical contradition. That would be to either make a really cute Set which carried elements which were not cute at ALL, maybe even evil (I have my own project which deals w/ this, maybe someday it will get finished) -- to get people to think twice (or maybe just think at all?), to get them to Q appearances, to get them to dig just a tad deeper. The other is the converse, to make a Set which isn't ostensibly cute at all yet which appeals to the same instincts which make people like cute. This to get them to u/stand that things come in a variety of packages & they ought not to judge books by (what they think are) covers &c, &c -- to show them that there is not only ONE style for any concept or sentiment... that beauty is a million things.
It's not the easy way, it's "the path of darkness" you will still not get a lot of praise, or if you do, not for the right reasons. Few will know that you do what you do for a greater purpose, even if you become popular in this way, you will still not be able to bask in it because only the ones changed or freed by your work will really matter to you. But it doesn't matter, they will know, & a few of the others who share your views will know. If you want more than that I suggest you get a guitar.
& who knows? Maybe in the end you really will be genuinely popular... for work you did long ago. ^_~
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 12:19 AM from IP address 4.3.93.57
...I never EVER said that I think cuteness is the most important part of a KiSS doll or anything. I do like cute but that's not all I limit it to. I don't draw the semi-cutesy kind of dolls I do because I am conforming to Kimiki's style...I draw the clothes I like and the clothes I wear, and the clothes I would like to dress dolls up in. I wouldn't draw gothy clothes or punk clothes or "twinkie" clothes if it wasn't what I liked unless it was part of the character in the doll. "cute" is just what 50% of my clothing style choice fits into...
I also feel the need to defend young KiSS artists. Maybe the fact that I'm barely 14 and everyone is generalizing like crazy and saying "Young people are just competetive!" And that we all want to be popular! I don't want to be popular. I really would hate to get a thousand emails a day saying how great I am. I would hate to have formed a group of obsessed fans in which I am their ringleader. There are young KiSS artists who DO conform and getting a high rating is important to them but there are a lot of us who could care less! Bah. You say how young people get defensive because they think you older people don't think their opinions matter, but it's freaking TRUE! Well maybe not exactly. You sure do place that "young people" label on us enough to make it really really seem that way. But this really isn't a response to this post EXACTLY...
Okay I'm done *runs*I saw my name so I had to comment.
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 5:56 PM from IP address 66.2.31.18
You do realize that this "older person" you're defending yourself against is all of *15*, don't you?
Afa taking teens seriously, I can't speak for the other Dinos but it seems to me that most of the grumps here take the sprogs a lot more seriously than is done in some other places. The main reason for this is that in terms of their work here they're technically capable of work which is just as good as that of far older people.
Seen another way, in terms of their utterance, taste, moods, & gen psych... well, we do, & we don't. We all remember what it was like then so that should temper our judgment. However it's just a deplorable fact of life (like mortality for instance) that teens aren't supposed to be taken seriously across the board. About some things, yes, absolutely, about others? Eh... no.
Ask anyone here, someone older, oh, like say all of 18 -- ask them if they can stand behind everything they said & thought & did when they were 14 or if they'd take all that seriously themselves. Most of them, the overwhelming majority, are so embarrassed by it all that they would sooner discorporate than return to that time & place.
This isn't like other places, if most of the adults here aren't "taking you seriously" then it's because you're not supposed to be taken seriously, I think we take the young ones seriously where it counts -- this whole thread is an examp of that.
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 6:57 PM from IP address 4.43.225.147
I do try to take everyone seriously and not discount what people say just because of their age.
The only exception would be if someone said something ridiculously irrational and offensive, something which would be deeply unacceptable from an adult. In that case, I'd be more likely to shrug it off if they were a teenager or younger. Is that wrong?
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 7:09 PM from IP address 207.195.139.200
i'm not one to shrug things off; if someone is young though i will give them the benefit of the doubt and try to explain to them why their behavior may be unacceptable, but i won't hold it against them. while, yeah, if someone older than me does something like that, i tend to no longer take that person seriously.
tea
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 7:17 PM from IP address 66.108.105.52
A fern was just telling my author that they were trying to do a piece of biz on-line w/ someone (auction purchase or some such) & the other one acted in a patently offensive manner... after a while they realized it was just a teen boy & in some circles that's simply how they talk to each other -- this one had assumed B's fern was also a kid, when he took pains to write like a grown-up the weird language & forms of adr ceased.
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 7:34 PM from IP address 4.43.225.147
Bravo to you all.
Personally, I think it's just human nature to have complaints about everyone at SOME point. I guess younger people are an easy target because a LOT of them make the steryotypes true. =\ So, I hold it against no one if they're going to complain about young people because they have a group of thirteen year olds hounding them with "Mail me your doll... I'm too lazy to find it on your site"'s and "Hi! How are you? I'm good... whatcha doin? Oh, that's cool... I'm so bored"'s. And I'm not going to hold it against someone if they think I suck, either. ^_^ I'm me. Everyone else can deal with it.
Posted on Jan 31, 2002, 8:26 PM from IP address 208.159.121.190
When you're young, it's easy to get stuck following a stereotype. You're still trying to figure out who you are and the easy answer is to pick some label and try to live up to it. But it doesn't work in the long run and, hopefully, most people grow out of it. Of course, not everyone does it but it's one of the most common pitfalls of youth.
As to language, I have to admit that I am a lot less receptive to someone if they write to me in slang. In particular, if someone writes to me in that silly "U = you" shorthand, it feels like an insult, as if I were so unimportant to them that they couldn't be bothered to type 3 letters instead of 1. And I truly hate the fake familiarity of being called "dude", "buddy", or some similarly generic appelation.
Posted on Feb 1, 2002, 3:27 PM from IP address 207.195.139.200
>I also feel the need to defend young KiSS artists. Maybe the fact that I'm barely 14 and everyone is generalizing like crazy and saying "Young people are just competetive!" And that we all want to be popular!
Maybe it was not stated in a sufficiently clear manner but I don't think anyone meant it that way. The statement was not "All these kids are just competitive" but rather it was "These kids who complain about KiSS being too competitive are just competitive."
Posted on Feb 1, 2002, 3:30 PM from IP address 207.195.139.200
just because we say "all people behaving this way are your age," doesn't mean that "all people your age are behaving this way."
as far as this applies to you, issei, while your own sets' content is, yes, "cute," it's also obvious that your work is cute because that's your personal style, not cute because you think that's what you should be doing. in my own early dolls, it was obvious that i liked tasha's and glyndon's sets, even though my dolls weren't as good as theirs, but my dolls didn't look like i was trying to copy them exactly. that's where i would put you. there's nothing wrong with emulating a style or even an artist you like; the problem is when you try to duplicate what they're doing. there are some really good template dolls out there-- tiffany, fashion doll from hell has been innovating in template sets i think since before i was making KiSS sets, and both tasha and emby used templates in their early work. it's not *always bad.* & in dootsie's case while her first sets weren't fabulous (neither were mine), there was always an obvious individual sense of humor and personality, which is not apparent in many sets.
when we say that "teenagers do x" it's not a bad thing & it's not worse than things that "grown-ups" do. it's a different stage in life. as i've said, people like you can draw better on a computer at 14 than i can at 23. that's really cool. & yes, i wish that i could do that, but on the other hand, i've been through a very good education at this point and i know that the important thing is to work to my strengths, not the strengths i want to have. i will probably never be able to draw as well as batchix or jamie gordon. but that's okay, because i can code pretty cleverly and i can come up with creative concepts and characters. everybody learns from what they see around them and because of that, your understanding of kis is completely different from mine which is completely different from that of someone who has been KiSSing as long as dov, which is completely different from someone who is in their thirties and just getting into KiSS for the first time. few of them are wrong, they are just informed by totally different things-- like the worlds we come from, and what we are trying to express by making dolls. there's something just as valid about a beautiful doll with a "standard" wardrobe as there is about a rough doll with a really quirky take on interface and clothing, and many times it can be more valid. more people enjoy playing with the former kind of doll. i don't like playing with most dolls, and i personally appreciate the latter kind, but i don't sit and dress dolls up, either. so of course i don't make dolls in that way. i make the kind of dolls i like, i just have different tastes from a lot of people. i assume that most people make dolls that are the kind of doll they like to play
