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"Concerned Members" need to read the New Testament

February 21 2002 at 3:32 PM
Rebecca Colvin 
from IP address

I feel offended and outraged by this website. These "concerned members" need to read the New Testament! No where does it say that salvation is based on the number of song leaders, the gender of people serving the church, or anything of that matter. Salvation comes from faith in Christ Jesus, and we are saved because of His grace, nothing we do in our church buildings. He came to save souls and transform lives, not to argue over petty issues, like instrumental music. I am finding it hard to respond to these people in Christian love, because I feel that their diviseness is of Satan. Don't they realize that Satan loves this kind of stuff? There are people literally dying on the streets with no hope, no beliefs to carry them on, and all these "concerned members" care about is whether or not RHCC is conforming to their legalistic views of Christianity. I have been a member of RHCC since 1978, and if is one of the few churches of Christ that attempts to follow the teachings of Jesus and not of man. It's things like this website that make me want to leave the Church of Christ denomination all together and go to one where the mission is to save souls. So, please "concerned members," do not send me any more warnings and please try to open your eyes and hearts to the message of Jesus. Even though it may be difficult, I will pray for you.

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Brent Cumbie

Amen Sister!

February 21 2002, 3:51 PM 

This stuff angers me and makes me sick. Especially coming from people who have never been to RHCC!

I too need to reel in the emotional responses, but then again I think God gave us the range of emotions he gave us with a reason for each one in mind.

Maybe this emotion of anger over this nonsense is designed by God to burden our hearts to pray for these souls who propagate divisiveness and hatred.

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Give God the Glory~

GOD REIGNS!! Even here ~on this disgusting website~among twisted views~!

February 22 2002, 11:25 AM 

There is mostly ONE person that
seems to want to divide the
church at RHCC! The rest here
are agreeing with Biblical
truths and God's word~and
Which also means supporting
Rick and the Elders!

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Re: GOD REIGNS!! Even here ~on this disgusting website~among twisted views~!

February 26 2002, 5:05 PM 

I love going to church at RHCC and I appreciate all that Rick does!!

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Sue T.

Pride is Sin!!

February 28 2002, 2:32 PM 

We need to be careful about letting Pride reign in our hearts. Christians can be "deceived" and "confused" by the evil one into thinking they know it all when it comes to the Word!! We are all aware none of us KNOW IT ALL!! If you are at peace within your heart and soul, then that is being led by the Holy Spirit. I for one feel that way at R.H. The desire to go out from the church and seek those that are lost has never been better for me personally. I have seen my husband come from not going to Church in the early days I was there to now, where he is One of those "Special Servants". Our growth has continually increased with each passing year.
Sorry, but I feel the VAST MOVEMENT now sweeping the country that involves this Church plus thousands of others is for SURE THE MOVE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO BRING REVIVAL TO THIS HURTING NATION!!

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October 22 2002, 10:24 PM 

Where has the respect for God and the Power of His word gone??? Are their NO limits anymore? Is everything we do explained by God's word OR explained off as God's revival?? God doesn't need a revival! He IS and WAS and WILL ALWAYS BE, with or without our help. God's word is our only guide not our personal FEELINGS on issues. We mock Christ when we alter the structure HE established! Has everyone forgotten Christ established the Church rather than man. Do we take the inspired word of God that lightly?? Unfortunately, it is Satan that has brought on an era in the church of "if it feels good, it must be what God wants". Do you not realize that Satan LOVES to hear you argue that scripture isn't worth discussing or the fact you don't think it's a big deal to alter Christ's structure and plan for the church?!!

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It is obvious from your message that your views are derived

October 8 2003, 3:43 PM 

chiefly from your feelings ("If you are at peace within your heart and soul, then that is being led by the Holy Spirit.")

Come ON!!! That is pretty shallow and pretty shabby. All kinds of people have all kinds of fine fuzzy warm and MISINFORMED, MISLEADING FEELINGS about their spirituality. You need to bring something of substance into your personal equation for spiritual confidence, and that means relying far less on your feelings and far more on what is taught in the Word of God. As I have read this and other similar web sites and as I have perused the writings of the driveling and deluded Judas goats like (YES!) Rubel Shelley and Max Lucado, it has be come ever more obvious that the discipline of studying the WORD is being replaced with a specious rhetoric that trades not upon REAL truth in the word of God, but relies rather upon a soft, flabby, ecumenically-slanted, Rodney King theology (Come on, peoples, can't we all get along?").

It is a dirty shame and it will bring many to grief and many, I fear, will lose their souls as a result of it.

Paul was assuredly at peace in HIS heart as he went about beating and killing those who were of the Way. Far too many, and especially too many of those in the under-40 generation, rely far, far too much upon the promptings of the "heart" and far, far too little on the real power and the real message of the WORD!

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They would rather criticize than read!

February 21 2002, 5:55 PM 

Wow, What time these people have. If they spent as much time and effort into modeling Jesus to those that are around them there would be standing room only in Heaven.
As a member of God's church for the last 40 years, I have chosen to worship at Richland Hills Church of Christ for the last 20 years (my choice). My wife and I have raised three kids, and I have had the pleasure of baptizing each of them and are currently watching and helping them as they mature in their walk of faith.
Many special servants have had an impact on our children, starting in the nursery, all the way through the college ministry. Fortunately for us and their walk many of these specail sevants has been and are women. I thank God every day for their impact on my childrens walk. As for other ministries I doubt the abused women, or widows, or orphans, or homeless families would enjoy much support if us men were in charge much less responsible for visits or food.
Now as for worship,the RHCC worship is awesome, some raise their hands, some close their eyes, most sing, and priase God with the worship or praise team. This has been a real blessing. In the fifties and sixties we sang the same songs in the same montone, and every Sunday nite we closed with "Now the Day is Over". It was great and meaningful worship, and is what I grew up with. I don't know if God was pleased but I plan to ask him one day. I don't know if he is pleased with my worship today, but I trust that because of the blood of Jesus, my worship is seen as pure and holy regardless of how I conduct it because my heart wants it to please him with the help of the Spirit.
I think that the day is coming soon when we will all know the answers and have a chance to worship and praise him forever. I suppose that if some of my brothers and sisters raise their hands in heaven some might be offended. At that time I suppose that there will be only one other place for them to choose to worship. Maybe they would rather be there. I hope not. I am praying for all of you.
In Christ Stephan Smyth

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RHCC member

AMEN! Thanks Stephen S.!

February 22 2002, 11:28 AM 

I agree 100%!!

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Joe McKnight

The problem is We Have read

February 22 2002, 11:34 AM 

Wouldn't you Catholic want-bes love it if you could take away our KJV's

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KJV Only?

October 30 2003, 12:05 PM 

Joe, I have just stumbled on this website. It would be amuzing if it were not so sad. I have surveyed a number of posts and the links that are on it. I have come to the conclusion that far from being run by some one in the middle of the road this site is run by extremists.

In what way? Well the comment about "taking away our KJVs" for one. Also the link at the top of the page to Gail Riplinger junk on modern versions. Is the KJV the ONLY word of God? Not only did every one of the Restoration Pioneers REJECT outright the King James Version, they actively worked to replace it. Alexander Campbell produced the Living Oracles and on we could go. J.W. McGarvey said a man/woman was on "dangerous ground" relying upon the KJV.

Riplinger has been "exposed" (to use a word I hear often) for what she is: purveyor of falsehood. Here are a few books:

1) James R. White, The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Modern Translations (Bethany House, 1995)

2) Donald A. Carson, The King James Version Debate: A Plea for Realism (Baker)

3) Jack Lewis, The English Bible: From KJV to NIV (Baker). Lewis, a prof at Harding Graduate School in Memphis has a wonderfully enlightening chapter on the KJV.

Paul never used the KJV!

Just passing through,
Bobby Valentine

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You'll meet God that's for sure

February 26 2002, 10:55 PM 

I'd feel real bad if I did not know if my worship was pleasing to God. I don't think you'll be asking the questions on that final day. The question you're going to be asked is "Why did you leave the faith that was once delivered? May God have mercy on you that day! Brother, please repent before it is too late!

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Joe McKnight

You tell'em Matt

February 27 2002, 10:17 AM 

But I have noticed that a very few will listen to us. After all it is just a remnant of us that make it. May God bless our efforts to wake'm up.

This forum has been edited by a moderator at
that logged in from one of the below forums. These forums are not part of, approved by or affiliated with any Church.

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You Will Meet God, That's For Sure

February 28 2002, 3:22 PM 

I would feel terrible if I did not know if my worship was pleasing to God. I'm sure Nadab and Abihu did not know either, but they soon found out. Just as we will one day. And your comment on asking questions on that final day I agree. Matt. 7:22,23 says "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name ? and in thy name cast out devils ? and in thy name done many wonderful works ? Then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.-- So brother you better know if your worship is acceptable to GOD!!! On the matter of singing and praying in worship that's all we have the authority to do. Anything added to this such as handclapping,handlifting,praise teams(chiors),etc. are a direct violation of what God has commanded(Rev. 22:18,19). Look what happened to Nadab and Abihu.

Just a brief question on your deacon problem at Richland Hills. Are your so called special servants(women deacons)the husband of one wife?(I Tim.3:11,12).

May you and others who have abandoned the faith that once was delivered repent before it's too late!(Lk.13:3)

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Brother in Christ

Stop Trying to Change The Way We Worship Here!!!

February 23 2002, 7:46 PM 

If the new members and new elders keep changing things then you might as well drop the "Church of Christ" part of RHCC and call it the RHRCC Richland Hills Rebecca Colvin Church.

Just find the other Church that does it the way you believe and stop trying to change this one.

I mean this in a loving way. For the love of Christ Church not just the Church of Christ and for you dear Sister.

In His Love
Brother in Christ

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Uncalled for

February 25 2002, 3:49 AM 

<< If the new members and new elders keep changing things then you might as well drop the "Church of
Christ" part of RHCC and call it the RHRCC Richland Hills Rebecca Colvin Church. >>

This was uncalled for. I do not know who Rebecca is, but I admire the fact that she had the courage to sign her name to her opinion.... "Brother".

Next time, please refrain from personal attacks and contribute something more thoughtful than "love it or leave it" - OK?

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We have read the true Word of God

February 24 2002, 12:02 PM 

We will be praying for you Rebecca. That your eyes will be opened to the fact that the changes being made to the Churches of Christ are of man not of God. Our churches were at peace and not divisive until this man-made movement came along. Anyone that says the Church of Christ is a denomination has missed the whole point of the Restoration Movement.

It amazes me that these issues are called petty by the very people that found them so important to change. If they are petty issues, then why change them?

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We have read the true Word of God February

June 8 2005, 8:48 PM 

I'm not so sure you have reaaaally read the word of God. Do you know that the church of God is mentioned at least 7 times in the NT and the churches of Christ is only mentioned in romans. At least I can't find it anywhere else.

Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. Romans16:16

Why is it that we believe this verse is so valuable when no one I know has ever saluted one another with a holy kiss! But we make a doctrine over the correct name for the church from this verse, Wow!

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Church of God?

June 9 2005, 8:24 AM 

The word GOD is a generic word: true God, false gods. God is derived from GAD which was the hostile tribe and the name of the GOD OF FORTUNE. When they turn musical they are SEEKING your FORTUNES while promising you will prosper. The Christian system is so ordered that it is not remotely possible to be either BIG or POPULAR and be faithful. Rather, you MUST be willing to be despised and rejected of men. ME THINKS that you are looking for a religionism which FITS the pattern in your own spirit.

The Word Jesus Christ means that Jesus is the name of THE CHRIST OF GOD. While there were MANY Elohim there was only ONE Lord or Jehovah. The word Savior is YASHA. Therefore, Zechariah prophesied that the BRANCH would be Jehovah- Saves. The Father would be Jehovah- Righted. Therefore, the BRANCH is the ARM or HAND of God and His Hand is not detached from HIMSELF.
    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2Co.5:19

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jn.20:28

This is why ALL names of the church in the Bible relate to Jesus Christ and not to the pagan, generic GOD. The MEGA churches are GENERIC religionism but not Christianity. MUSIC is the MARK in the Garden of Eden, the real king/queen of Tyre, of Babylon and the end-time Babylon whore religion devoted to COMMERCE and MUSIC.

Stephen spoke of the church in the wilderness while informing the religionists that the temple was given as a concession to David. That is, when David was too fearful to ever return to Gibeon God gave him a Jebusite High place in Jerusalem. This city is a city set on seven hills but it primarily DUELING MOUNTAINS. It is also called SODOM and EGYPT. God gave this mountain because He had earlier, according to Stephen and others, turned them over to worship the starry hosts. This was because their musical idolatry was seen by God as their prayer to return to what became Canaanite Baalism in Canaan and assuredly in and around the temple.
    This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the ANGEL which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Ac.7:38

    And were all BAPTIZED unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Co. 10:2

    And did all eat the same SPIRITUAL meat; 1Co. 10:3

    And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1Co.10:4

    But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1Co. 10:5

    Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not LUST after evil things, as they also lusted. 1Co. 10:6

    Neither be ye IDOLATERS, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to PLAY. 1Co. 10:7

That PLAY was musical idolatry of the Egyptian TRINITY the same threesome promoted by Richland Hills. SINGING to arouse EXCITEMENT is outlawed by the PATTERN of Jesus and the direct command of Paul in Romans 15 defining SPEAKING and not modern charismatic (sexual and homosexual according to the Greek world) MUSIC.
    Moses replied: "It is not the sound of victory, it is not the sound of defeat; it is the sound of SINGING that I hear." Ex.32:18
God TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST which is the musical worshiped for your END-TIME church in Revelation 18:22 which PUTS OUT the candlesticks in YOUR church (verse 23)

The church or ekklesia was the synagogue or QAHAL. Any time God causes people to assemble it is a CHURCH or synagogue. In Numbers 10 when God authorized two silver trumpets (only) they were to CALL ASSEMBLY or to ALARM or perform TRIUMPH OVER music to send the enemy in panic. However,
    But when the congregation is to be GATHERED together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an ALARM. Num 10:7

    Congregation is: Qahal (h6951) kaw-hawl'; from 6950; assemblage (usually concr.): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude.

    The alarm was:

    Ruwah (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a JOYFUL noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.

This was the MUSICAL REJOICING which Psalm 41 prophesied Judas would attempt on Jesus Christ to TURN HIM over to the STAR WORSHIPING clergy.

Loud instruments and "making a joyful noise" before the Lord was not worship: it was the warrior's panic song. In Psalm 41 it was prophesied that Judas would try and fail to TRIUMPH OVER God. It is significant that the Judas Bag of the thief was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments."

The synagogue or church in the wilderness was called ONLY for instruction and on the FIRST and SEVENTH day of festivals to "hold a holy convocation." This means to READ or REHEARSE the Word of God. This would often be spoken so that people could learn the law and memorize it. That is ALL that Jesus intended when he died to build HIS church.

It is significant that the common people assembled on the Sabbath to REST. That does no mean worship in the charismatic sense but to REST and learn the word and pray. The sabbath idea specifically EXCLUDED "sending out ministers." The local elders would teach as they had been taught. The temple was for the CIVIL-MILITARY state but the people's congregator or "church" never violated the rule against music or rejoicing during SCHOOL. That is until 1815 in a liberal Ger man synagogue: even then it was not lawful for a Jew to play the organ on the Sabbath.

The church in the wilderness was the church of Christ or the synagogue of Christ. When you remove CHRIST from your witness you INTEND to apostasize:
    Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye CRUCIFIED, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. Acts 4:10

    This is the STONE which was set at nought of you BUILDERS, which is become the head of the corner Acts 4:11

    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

    Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13

    And he is the head of the body, the CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col.1:18

The BUILDERS or CRAFTSMEN in the whole whore religion were the Greek TECHNE: they were "theater builders and stage managers." They will ALL go back into hell from which Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon UNLEASED THEM. The LOCUSTS means MUSICAL PERFORMERS.

And that brings us to an IDENTIFIER:
    Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN blood. Ac.20:28
Now this LORD and GOD Who gave his SPECIFIC name to His church is He who PURCHASED it with HIS OWN BLOOD. Now, if you use a GENERIC name for God, you steal from the poor as BUILDERS to build a theater for holy entertainment. Can YOU guess the name of GOD who purchased HIS CHURCH? If you CAN and you remove CHRIST from your consiousness then YOU are financing the BUILDERS who MUST reject Christ they YOU are rejected by CHRIST.

The church is a SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible and the direct command and minimal common sense says that you don't spit in the face of Jesus when He invites the twos and threes to COME LEARN OF ME. You know God CANNOT dwell in HOUSES made by the hands of the BUILDERS and God cannot be worshipped by the HANDS of man or ANY idolatry of tallent. So WHY are you so proud of letting the BUILDERS who MUST reject the STONE steal YOUR child's health care money by lying about THE LAW OF TITHING or THE LAW OF GIVING.
The BAPTISMAL CONFESSION is that "Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God." That means that He is the Visible Image of God and the WORD of God. By analogy, My WORD is always WITH ME because it IS ME.
    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18

    AND he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1


    But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the NAME of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Ac.8:12

    For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of CHRIST and of God. Ep.5:5

    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Ti.4:1

    For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord AND Saviour Jesus Christ. 2Pe.1:11

    I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Re.1:9

And the TESTIMONY of Jesus is:
    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT of prophecy. Rev 19:10
So THEY lie when they tell you that YOU need to PAY THEM to HELP you worship by using PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE that they are going to have THE HOLY SPIRIT PERSON there to guide the worship in A HOUSE BUILD BY HUMAN HANDS and performed by the WORKS OF HUMAN HANDS of which music is the most WORKS and therefore LEGALISTIC intensive.
Then Jesus went back into the heavens which means "out there" perhaps in the same place but in a spiritual dimension. Remember that "In Him we live, move and have our being." Jesus came with power on the day of Pentecost and Peter USED the KEYS to open the kingdom in the Ekklesia or church of Christ sense. Christ could not be the head of the body or church of Christ until he had purchased it:
    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col.1:18
By the resurrection and return at Pentecost The Christ of God which dwelled in the man, Jesus of Nazareth, returned as SPIRIT. There is only one Spirit so that what we are permitted to glimpse of the CHRIST of God is all of invisible Deity we are ever going to see or experience. OUR test is whether we can accept Jesus Christ as the model. Thomas identified Him as "My Lord and My God." Therefore, the CHRIST of God or his anointing power IS God to us. This means that "the church of God" is "the church of Christ" simply because HE purchased it with his own blood.

The CHURCH has existed under the name of The Church of Christ from the very beginning. It was called THE CHURCH OF CHRIST in written documents long before THE CHURCH OF CHRIST went into paganism by adopting things like CANDLES AND MUSIC which they confess was COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. AND IT STILL IS.

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Why the church exists

March 30 2002, 3:54 PM 

Dear Rebecca,

I agree with your feelings toward the "watchdog" attitude" that appear in several of the postings to this site. However, I'm shocked at your statement about leaving the c of c for a denomination where the mission is to save souls. If that's what you mean, then this website if doing what it should. There is no more important function for the church.

I pray that God would focus your life on reaching the lost with the message of His love.


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November 1 2002, 2:51 PM 

Your message is right on. I grew up in the Church of Christ in Amarillo and attended ACC, now ACU before transferring to Oklahoma State. After growing up in the church I drifted away for several years. I in fact joined the Southern Baptist denomination for several years, which my Wife was also. We were formerly members of the North Richland Hills Baptist Church when I heard Rick at a men's prayer breakfast a couple of years ago. He was a friend of one of the Associate Pastors. Wonder what the Concerned members think about that one? After hearing Rick I told my Wife I wanted to attend RHCC. We did and have been there since being members since 2000. My two daugthers go to school there. I believe in the inerrant word of the Bible written my men inspired by the Holy Spirit. However, read the history of translation and you will find a difference of opinion as to meaning on some things. In my opinion Special Servants are fine and dandy. If concerned members were as concerned with bringing people to Christ we would all be a whole lot better off.

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RE: Mike Roach's Amen

November 1 2002, 11:27 PM 


When you say "I believe in the inerrant word of the Bible written my men inspired by the Holy Spirit. However, read the history of translation and you will find a difference of opinion as to meaning on some things", are you saying that there is no translation of the Bible that you can hold in your hands and declare "This is the inerrant Word of God"? If this is what you are saying, then you are calling God a liar.

Psalms 12:6-7

"The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The information you need to find His preserved Word is on this website. I pray that you find it.

If you and your brethren were as concerned for the Truth of God's Word as you are for the charisma of Rick Atchley and the "difference of opinion as to meaning on some things" by so-called modern scholarship there would be no need for a website like this.

God commanded us to:

1 Thes 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

1 John 4:1 "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Matthew 24:4 "Take heed that no man deceive you."

Acts 17:11 "search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"

Phil 1:10 "approve things that are excellent"

2 Tim 2:15-16 "rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings"

Jude 3 "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints"

2 Tim 4:2-3 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

We are:

Eph 5:10 "proving what is acceptable unto the Lord"

We know that:

1 Cor 2:15 "he that is spiritual judgeth all things"

Your opinion that "Special Servants are fine and dandy" is just that, an opinion, and it has no scriptural authority to support it. Your post was woefully lacking in Scripture.

The Concerned Members are bringing more people to Christ and we are all better off.

Prayerfully Onward,


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Church of Christ denomination

June 8 2005, 8:22 PM 

Rebecca wrote:
It's things like this website that make me want to leave the Church of Christ denomination all together and go to one where the mission is to save souls. So, please "concerned members," do not send me any more warnings and please try to open your eyes and hearts to the message of Jesus. Even though it may be difficult, I will pray for you.

This is exactly what we recently did, we left the legal camp, for Pantego Bible Church. Intrestingly, we found about a hundred or so cofc people who beat us there. Had we known about richland hills at the time we probably would be going there instead.

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Re: Church of Christ denomination

June 10 2005, 7:24 PM 

Rebecca and others at Richland Hills,

I wonder how Jesus feels about all of this? He gave His life to provide us with the Truth. He said it wouldn't be easy and not many of us would make it, but he gave us the chance. Then he warned of false teachers and Churches that would lose their light. These Churches were having many of the same issues as Richland now has. Why is Richland immune to God's will?

If you sit on you "high horse" and believe all is well at Richland, you are going to have a long fall one day. If you believe that God has so little power that he cannot create a Truth that withstands time, you limit him. If you spread false teachings, you dishonor him. If you allow those teachings to go uncondemned, you have failed him.

It is obvious that you are not a student of the Bible and that you are reacting out of emotion and not from the Truth of God's Word. How can I say that? Because you are condmening men that are doing what God told them to do. To denounce false teachers and divisionists. You have failed to read MANY, MANY scriptures that are CLEARLY against the behaviors at Richland.

In fact, why don't you read some of the early Christian's writings from the 1st and 2nd Centuries. You know, the ones who actually studied with Paul, John, Jesus and others. Did you know that they condemned Churches for teaching the same false teachings as Richland? Did you know that they considered them evil and divisional? That they wrote letters that are very close to what these men on this website have written? So, are you condemning them also?

Did you know that in the 1st Century, pagan religions had female priestesses and helpers in their churches? That it wasn't unusual for women to lead churches and serve in them? That the early church leaders discussed how unChristian it was for women to do so? That Jesus taught against it? That it wasn't a cultural or time issue but one that was to stand for all times? Yet, Richland let's women do exactly what the condemned 1st Churches did?

That the early church leaders were against musical instruments and determined they were not to be a part of the assembly? That they had no soul and separated man from God? That they scoffed at the "talent" comment and said talent had nothing to do with the assembly and our direct singing to God?

I could go on and on about all the false teachings at Richland and how much they parallel the Agnostics and Heretics of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Centuries. How does that make you feel knowing you are attending the same type of Church condemned by the Apostles and the early Christians? Oh, you'll just ignore this truth and find an excuse to denounce it just like you do half the Bible. But at least my soul is clean for having told you the Truth of the situation.

It's amazing how much smarter you and Richland's preacher are than Jesus, the Apostles and the first Christian Churches. are special. Did God talk to you directly or could it have been Satan?

You condemn men who are doing what God expressly told them to do in the NT. So, who has the problem? The one's who abide by the Word or those who have changed it to fit their man-made needs?

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PPB's statement to Rebecca

June 11 2005, 4:30 PM 

It's amazing how much smarter you and Richland's preacher are than Jesus, the Apostles and the first Christian Churches. are special. Did God talk to you directly or could it have been Satan?

Hello PPB, this statement identify's you as a legalist in my mind. Legalist generally do not believe that God speaks to his people. Nor do they believe satan is real, after all he has already been locked up, right? Evidently, this is only sarcaism. My guess is that she is special in God's eyes and so are you. Jesus shed his perfect blood for sinners just like us.

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Re: PPB's statement to Rebecca

June 11 2005, 8:53 PM 

Real -

I have no idea where you come up with your wacky notions of what the c of C believes. Truly, where did you ever hear that the devil is "locked-up"?

Legalist am I? Well, thank goodness, because that was what Jesus and the Apostles were so I must be on the right path.

Or hey, I could do like you and ignore God's inspired Word. You are sure making Satan happy right now. He loves people to only read a portion of the Bible, he gets many souls that way. Your false belief is sad and I am truly pained that you cannot see the Truth which is so clear. Just read the Bible. ACTUALLY READ ALL OF IT!

Jesus took the light away from churches for failing to obey God's commands and His teachings. What does that mean for your church?

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Re: PPB's statement to Rebecca

June 12 2005, 9:05 PM 

PPb says:
I have no idea where you come up with your wacky notions of what the c of C believes. Truly, where did you ever hear that the devil is "locked-up"?

Real-life says:
And you accuse me of not knowing what the cofc believes. In reality there are many things the cofc believes, but do not teach in detail. Escotology is one of them. The cofc including many in the grace camp believe in amillenialism.

Amillenialism. (Or, 'realised millenialism')
The third view is the one that has probably been held by most Bible-believing Christians of all time. This view recognises that Revelation is steeped in symbolism and that if one takes a literalist view of Revelation 20 one comes to a position which is not in agreement with some things which Christ said. He said, for instance, that the judgement of all (good and evil) will occur at His return. See Matt25: 31-34. Paul too did not appear to see a time lapse. More serious is that while Paul painstakingly outlines so much Christian theology, no concept of a millenium can be found in his writings.(It has been said that just two verses in all of his theological expositions could be a reference to a 'millenium'.) This is not the place to go through these things in great depth, some excellent books are available which we could recommend to an E Mailer, but Amillenialism would see Revelation 20 as referring to the age of the Church with the 'binding of Satan' being tied in with those Scriptures which also clearly show a great restriction on the activities of Satan and his demons during the Church age. Think of Jesus' ministry of casting out demons and note such Scriptures as Luke 10: 17-20, Mark 16: 17 & John 12: 31-32. Also carefully note Matt 12: 25-29.

The 'strong man' whom Jesus talks about binding here is Satan and the time setting is Jesus' preaching of the gospel! (His first coming.) So this view sees Satan's 'binding' as referring to the fact that he is unable to directly attack and destroy the Church. It is in this sense that he is unable to 'deceive the nations' yet he is able to influence them in other ways. At Museltof this is the position which we support without reservation as being the position which takes into account most Scriptures, but if you disagree thats fine. This is not an area which believers in the Christ should argue about!

This is from an amillenialism web page, this is basically what most cofc believe. The term I used was that satan is locked up, the term used here is bound, means the same thing.

I was in the cofc for a very long time, so I am very familar with the doctrine. Keep in mind the doctrine is different from one division (split)to the next. Not every cofc teach the same things, they never have had complete unity. Try studying the restoration movement, The disciples of Christ, the Christian church and the cofc have different roles in the movement each with a different perspective on what happened. The cofc has never had a pure doctrine that everyone agreed with. Like it or not this is the truth, history reveals it.

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Re: PPB's statement to Rebecca

June 14 2005, 6:54 PM 


You truly have not been to many C of Christ's. Just because you were a member of one ODD church that had the name C of C does not mean you were a member of the mainstream c of Christ. I am a preacher's daughter and have been to more churches than you can imagine over the years. Yet, not one has been as you have portrayed.

Which leads me to the following possiblity...You are not now nor ever were a member of the c of Christ: One God, One Truth, One Path, One Baptism. You responses on the this board and your narrow use of scripture leads me to question your Biblical knowledge.

Before posting on such sites, I think it would behove you to actually read the Bible, learn some Greek, and then study the Bible some more.

At this time, I find it ridiculous to banter with you over issues of which you are extremely misinformed. I would double check your sources as they are inaccurate and obviously biased without reason. Just because you have an opinion on something doesn't mean you need to tell us about it. Especially if your opinion is based on inaccurate information.

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Who is in control?

June 15 2005, 12:47 PM 

PPB writes:
You truly have not been to many C of Christ's. Just because you were a member of one ODD church that had the name C of C does not mean you were a member of the mainstream c of Christ. I am a preacher's daughter and have been to more churches than you can imagine over the years. Yet, not one has been as you have portrayed.

Which leads me to the following possiblity...You are not now nor ever were a member of the c of Christ: One God, One Truth, One Path, One Baptism. You responses on the this board and your narrow use of scripture leads me to question your Biblical knowledge.

Before posting on such sites, I think it would behove you to actually read the Bible, learn some Greek, and then study the Bible some more.

At this time, I find it ridiculous to banter with you over issues of which you are extremely misinformed. I would double check your sources as they are inaccurate and obviously biased without reason. Just because you have an opinion on something doesn't mean you need to tell us about it. Especially if your opinion is based on inaccurate information.

Real-life replies:
It must be wonderful to be a preachers daughter. Hey, I could go in your church and preach a salvation message, saying all the right things, quoting all the correct scriptures, and you would believe I must be a great follower of truth. I have not forgotten all that. For many years I used cofc comentaries, and used only the King James Bible. I went to all the cofc seminars and teacher traning classes I could find time for and I served as a deacon for many years. In spite of what you think, I know the cofc doctrine very well. If I were to use those scriptures only in my posts, I would pass as a cofc, and we could be friends. It is the legalist doctrine I am opposed to. Not once have you heard me say you are not a true christian. You see, it is the exclusiveness of the doctrine which creates division, it is built in. We are the only people of God, we are the only ones with truth, we are the only ones who can understand the five step plan for salvation. We are the only ones who God has called, we are the only ones God can use, because we have all truth to the exclusion of all other students of the bible. The Church of Christ is the one and only true church, we have the only correct name above the door to prove it. We do not use instruments in our worship, we are different, we dress right, use all the right words. In other words we have a language all of our own. We never say John or Mary was saved today, we replace that word with baptized. Why do we do all these things? Mostly so we can find ways of seperating ourselfs from others who claim the name of Jesus.

Never will you hear me say that everyone who say Lord, Lord will be saved. I am convinced that only true christians will be saved, but maybe I'm wrong there also. Abraham, Moses, David, Ruth and so many others will probably be saved. Should we call them Christians?

Hey, there are too many things we have pre-concieved ideas about, we do not have all truth, that is reserved for God. Below is some scripture you should read. Even Paus is saying he has not yet attained everything. He says that he counts all of his knowledge of the law and his performance as dung compared to Knowing the greatness of Jesus. What we need is a working relationship with God and his Saviour. He has everything in control, even when we fail. It is more important who we know than how much knowledge we have.

2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Pressing on Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

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Re: Who is in control?

June 15 2005, 9:10 PM 


Again, you show a complete lack of knowledge about the c of C. So, I am now convinced you were never even a member. Are you just an instigator, sent to cause problems without any real knowledge of why you have been told to do so?

By the way, I hope everyone reading this read your last posting as it said what churches such as Richland are all about! I love how you state you won't come back with certain scriptures because it would make you a legalist, too. Wow!!!!!! Now scriptures make one a legalist...Wonder how God views that comment?

If you had been a member of a c of C, you would know that having been "baptized" and being "saved" are the same thing and are used interchangeably in our discussions since we DO follow the scriptures. Do you remember any of them? You know, the ones that tell you about receiving "remission of sins" and the "gift of the HS" AFTER baptism?

Oh, ignore those verses, too. Wow, and you want someone to debate with you about the scriptures? Which ones would that be? Should we mark out those you don't believe in anymore?

I will continue to pray for you and your return to ALL of God's Word.

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PPB and others

October 19 2005, 11:11 AM 

I posted the following message on another thread within this website several months ago, and I think it is very relevant here. PPB- you seem to think that one who really knows the scriptures would be in 100% agreement with everything you and the "true CoCers" think and do. That is absurd. Please read below with an open mind and think about diverting the hatred in your heart to something productive for and pleasing to the Lord and others...

Observations from one who empathizes with and has been on both sides of the argument...

If a "NT Christian" is truly concerned about obeying the law, then clearly love is the most emphasized by far: We all know what Jesus told the rich young ruler; in Romans 6:14 Paul says "the entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself"; and later James refers to this as the "royal law" (James 2:8).

So since we know that this IS the most important thing, then we should consider it when differences arise. Just because someone disagrees with me does not give me the right to show hatred. In fact, it clearly violates this "law". It seems ironic that in holding so strong to our "issue beliefs" that in most cases are disputable, we are disobeying God regarding something that he has clearly made known to us as THE most important thing to him (love). It makes me sad when I hear some people just blow off "love" as if it were a secondary issue.

Here are my observations of the "law" after doing an extensive study throughout the new testament. In the gospels, Jesus does not talk about bringing a new law; he talks about fulfilling it. By fulfilling the law, Jesus eliminated our obligation to live under the law. Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..", Gal 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteouness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" Gal 3:24-25 "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law" Gal 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

You may be thinking: but these pertain to the old law. But does it really make sense after looking at these verses that God intended for us to go from being a slave to one law to being a slave of a new one? These verses very directly imply that following a law is not what saves us. Gal 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law". Notice it does not say "the" law so you can not say it refers to the old law. Rom 6:14 "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." Again it does not say the law, but law in general. The only reference to a new law of Christ (i.e. NT law) is in Gal 1-3 where it talks about carrying each other's burdens so you fulfill the law of Christ...sounds like an action of love to me.

I think many are fearful that if we truly feel and live as if we have freedom in Christ then that means we are saying we don't have to do anything to be saved. It doesn't mean that. I think God clearly reveals what he expects of us as we embrace his grace, but most of the things that are disputed here and other places are disputable matters period. Paul tells us in Romans 16 not to pass judgment on disputable matters. From titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because they are unprofitable and useless."

Disputable matters...I could go on about these for days, but I will just quote Paul from 1Cor 10:23, "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible, but not everything is constructive." I think both sides of these arguments - "traditional" and "progressive" - have an obligation to seek what is the most beneficial and constructive way to praise our God and seek the lost. And more times than not, that will look and be different depending on the circumstances. We all should refrain from trying force others to do and think exactly as we do. Healthy, open minded discussions are fine, but slinging mud and slandering others with a completely closed mind is clearly hurtful to God and others.

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October 22 2005, 6:25 PM 

    Mark matters...I could go on about these for days, but I will just quote Paul from 1Cor 10:23, "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible, but not everything is constructive." I think both sides of these arguments - "traditional" and "progressive" - have an obligation to seek what is the most beneficial and constructive way to praise our God and seek the lost.
You have thrown up a lot of flack but it is DEFENSIVE and misses the mark. Legalism is to IMPOSE some action on our part which INCREASES the power of God. Music has been the POWER POINT of the most ancient, ignorant, tribalistic and superstitious people of whom we know anything. In fact the MUSICAL PROPHESIER is the OLDEST PROFESSION. When groups calling themselves "the church of Christ" has existed and NAMED during all periods from the beginning and ALWAYS rejected music as CONDEMNED in the Bible and nonsensical for literacy 101aaa to have MUSIC when we are supposed to be GIVIING HEED to God through HIS songs and sermons. Paul used the word SPEAK and SING or ODE defines PSALMOS as "cantillation" or a form of speaking THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN for the SOLE PURPOSE of TEACHING, ADMONISHING and GLORIFYING GOD.

Therefore, ADDING things NOT necessary to CONDUCT the school of the Bible automatically and deliberately sows massive discord. THAT is legalism. It is wacko to say that people who keep on NOT doing what they NEVER did are LEGALISTS.

In one proof text yanked out by its roots, Paul had just warned about the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. They had just been given The Book of The Covenant. They TURNED BACK to musical idolatry: Stephen and many others say that god TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry hosts. God then gave them The Book of the Law.

Paul did not PERMIT everything but allowed ONLY that which edifies: THE WORD means to EDUCATE and never means to "make feel good." Jesus died to found an ekklesia or synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. The synagogue had NO PRAISE SERVICES which are legalistic, paternistic and sectarianizing. PRAISE as a ritual has always a way to PROP UP THE gods to keep them from failing.

No one in churches of Christ have added PRAISE TEAMS (replacing Jesus as Mediator) without first ABANDONING faith in the Word. Next, they have never imposed these discording legalisms without LYING, CHEATING and STEALING from the members. Therefore, it is NOT a discussion among believers but with those who believe that the Bible has been SIFTED of all of its truth and WE gonna PARTNER with God to get a new set of Scriptures for OUR changed culture.

As part of the Purpose Driven Cult they ANTICIPATE losing half of the OWNERS and that is an acceptable loss to them.

All of the RITUALISTIC sacrifices with the EXORCISM of loud instruments under the KING AND THE COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY were to SERVE the priests and not God. Their SERVICE meant HARD BONDAGE. In all such musical rituals which repudiates the CROSS all such PRAISING is RANK LEGALISM. The church sits down, shuts up and LISTENS to God through HIS word in song and sermon. Paul made a LAW in Romans 15 NOT to do the PLEASURING rituals which SOW DISCORD but to speak "that which is written" with one mind and one voice as the ONLY way to glorify God.

Therefore, any ADDITION is based on LEGALISM thinking that you can DO WORKS to make the WORD OF CHRIST MORE POWERFUL. NOT using instruments is NOT legalism. Rather, when God pours out His WRATH on people for rejecting the WORD (a legalism) the word is ORGE which means the charismatic (perverted) singing and making a fool out of yourselves: a SPECTACLE is THEATRON.

1 Cor. 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
    "The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).
That needs no proving: performing musicians say "WATCH JESUS" but they know and all fools know that they are saying "WATCH ME perform my idolatry of talent."
    "We know that all of the Israelites brought Egyptian gods and practices with them and it is not far-fetched to think that Miriam, who had not yet been exposed to the Covenant, was part of the consciousness-altering rhythms and which was part of a priestly myth-play brought to destructive consummation at Mount Sinai as the golden calf was called back into action.
This "rising up to play" involved eating, drinking, nakedness and musical worship. The goddess, Hathor, is the best candidate for the Mother Goddess of the Mount Sinai idolatry. Here priestesses or prophetesses were highly trained with musical instruments, cultic songs and be able to join in the religious dance.
    "Music and drugs were co-consiprators in religious ecstasy. They may have used some product of the sycamore fig which both intoxicated and induced an altered state of consciousness. The ergo of barley was well known. Anton Marks

    "Rising up to Play" was playing instruments in a ritual drama and was mocking Jehovah God as they rejected Him and worshiped Apis. Elsewhere we see that this was seduction, the theme of all ancient worship with music:

    "They sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. They practiced rites in which they made themselves naked, perhaps similar to those which were carried out by naked Babylonian priests." (Woodrow, p. 158)

    "In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the musical form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).

The MARK is that baptized believers having received A holy spirit can read the word SPEAK and not have Satan translate it as SANG. Isn't that the wildest exactly reproduction of the FALL FROM GRACE at the Red Sea and at Mount Sinai?

1 Cor. 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Music and ritual or literal fornication ALWAYS went together. When people LOOSE faith in their religion and believe Shelly etal that ALL truth has been shot away but seven facts ABOUT Jesus all of history knows that you CRACK AWAY and fall back into archaic ritualism. Ritual music and sexuality (real or virtual) was the LAST GASP of a dying civilization. So, sing your SWAN'S SONG because tomorrow you die having SOLD your spirit "for a MESS of accepting the worship due only to God." This is the Lucifer or ZOE principle.

1 Cor. 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1 Cor 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


I COR 11 Paul warns against the women in UNCOVERED PROPHESYING which was music to induce a form of MADNESS such as chapter 14 where Paul RIDICULES their practices and OUTLAWS anything which does not EDIFY which means to EDUCATE.

The word PLEASURE in Romans 15 means to LIFT YOU UP and the MACHINERY was SINGING in an arousal way which is defined as sorcery or witchcraft. The PURPOSE is a connected word meaning HERESY. The person who MANIPULATES such rituals is called a DEMAGOGUE who uses performing arts to LIFT YOU UP to CARRY YOU AWAY for his OWN purposes. The word KLEPTOMANIA is a connected word. Therefore, MUSIC is the only LEGALISTIC side.

Jesus died to give us REST from the Laded Burden USING People like pack animals. The LADEN is defined as "creating spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." This was with AROUSAL SINGING. The REST is the Greek word PAUO: it is highly dedicated in the literature to meaning STOP THE SPEAKING, STOP THE SINGING, STOP THE INSTRUMENTS, STOP THE PANIC of ritual.

MUSIC is THE machinery of LEGALISM: a quiet "school of th Bible" is Christ's REST from the theatrical performers who were ALWAYS PERVERTED and PERVERTING.

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October 24 2005, 1:17 PM 


The impression that I get when I read this post and a few others in the past is that you are completely against all music and think it is from Satan because it lulls us into feeling some emotion that may take us out of our ability to think rationally and logically.

Outside of arranged marriages, all relationships are built and strengthened through emotional connections. God desires to have an emotional connection with us (i.e. a personal relationship). Otherwise He would not have set Himself up and be referred to as our Father. He would be our Ruler or just King or Dictator, etc.. We can better understand the emotional connection He desires because we can relate to the Father and Children relationship.

Music has always been and will always be an integral part of God's plan for us to connect with Him and express our praise and adoration of Him.

The music used in Judges, Kings, Chronicles, Nehemiah, of couse Psalms, and on and on show displays of praising and worshiping God through music (most of the time with instruments). Then you have the few times in Daniel and Amos where music was being used in conjunction with inappropriate behavior and actions, but it wasn't the music that was evil or wrong, it was what the music was accompanying.

Ephesians 5:19 "Speak to on another with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord..."

Clearly God desires us to bring musical praise to Him. And if music of praise had always been accompanied by instruments during the previous 3000 or so years, it makes absolutely no sense for it to not even be mentioned in the New Testament. If instruments are wrong because there is not an official record of them being used in the "New Testament" church until long after the first century, then the following things are also wrong and sinful:

- PA systems/ microphones
- Harmony of any type
- part solos (basses - There is a God), (altos - I Come to the Garden Alone)
- pitch pipes or tuning forks
- pulpits
- song books with published songs
- Direction from Song Leader
- Invitation and Invitation song
- etc...

Based on much of the logic many have here, how could these things be right? They were not mentioned in or ordained by the New Testament when it comes to music. How can we accept them as they were introduced well after the First Century?

These are not examples of legalism, but rather Traditionalism. I love traditions and find many very useful and meaningful, but when they get passed off as doctrine, I have a problem with that mindset.

Best Regards

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October 6 2005, 10:22 AM 

I agreeRebecca I too think that these's so called "CONCERNED MEMBERS" only concern is whether or not all churches of christ are conforming to their legalistic views of christianity

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October 26 2005, 7:05 PM 


I don't think any of us believe that knowing the scriptures equals agreement. In fact, the devil knows the scriptures and he definitely is NOT in agreement with God's plan. Knowledge does not equal understanding if you do not have your heart in the right place nor have obeyed God's commands.

The saddest comment you made and the most erroneous one is that we have "hatred in our hearts." You couldn't be further from the truth. We have saddness, disappointment, and outrage - but not hatred. Mostly we have a LOT of love. As a parent, it takes love to stand up against your child's desires and remind them of the Truth and reality. But a parent does it, even knowing it will anger their child, hoping one day they will hear that voice in the back of their mind and finally listen to it. That's how we feel about lost souls in the Church that have been led astray.

You preached on the verses about love. No one has disputed the importance of Love or forgiveness, the most special of all gifts given to us by Christ. Yet, because of his selfless act, we have more responsiblity towards him.

Let's look at some facts you seem to have overlooked:

1. Love vs. selfishness

You mentioned Romans 6:14 where Paul says "the entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself". Yet, you left out one of the most important parts of the verse - selflessness. You only see the "me" part of it. What do I get? How do I feel about giving love? Do I feel good? Do I feel Christian? Do I think people are loving the way I want them to? I, I, I. That's what progressiveness is.

Do you think that is what Paul meant by that verse? No. He was talking about giving up YOUR wants and needs to OTHERS wants and needs. Selflessness. Not putting yourself first. Not causing others distress because you need to fullfill your own needs. Not causing others to stumble. Oh...that's a big one. Do you think coming in and changing things will cause people to stumble? You bet it will. So, where's the love in that?

The change agents have failed to Love. They have changed and caused stress for others around them because THEY wanted things THEIR way. They didn't care about their neighbor or fellow christian. If they had, they would have left things as they were and started their own congregation of like-minded people. They came INTO these Churches with a mindset to CHANGE things because THEY didn't like it the way it was. Those that truly LOVE do not go in and change things that are scripturally correct. Who do they REALLY love? Themselves.

2. Law vs. Commandment

You keep discussing "law". As you know, the law Christ is discussing is the Mosaic law. However, there were still Christians trying to live under both the Mosaic law and Christianity. That is who he was talking to and about. And though it says "law" and not "old law", if you look at the original Greek, he is discussing Mosaic law. If he was pertaining to all laws, then that would mean any and all laws - laws of the state, laws of the city, etc. If you look at your assumption, you will see the error. The HS does not mean you no longer follow laws - it means you no longer follow the Mosaic law.

Commandment (greek: entole)- an order, command, charge, precept, injunction.
Did you know that there are around 50 sciptures that relate to obeying God's commandments as a Christian? That obeying God's commandments are essential to our salvation? Read the following (just a few of many scriptures):

2 John 1:6 - And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 1:9 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Here's where you and I truly differ. I believe that Love includes my actions and inactions. I believe it includes following His commandments and abiding by his Truth. That includes his commandment to admonish those that teach false Truth/commandments. Christ stated such in 1 John 3:18 - "My little children, let us not LOVE in word, neither in tongue; BUT in DEED and in TRUTH."

You see, living a life of freedom in Christ actually has more responsibility than living under the law. Under the old law, you were not held accountable for causing others to stumble or your inner thoughts. We are. Everything we do must be "in the name of the Lord". Our thoughts, actions and lack of actions all will be weighed. Christ told us so. The difference is that we have a second (or third...) chance. We have his grace...his forgiveness if we truly repent from our sins.

You seem to lump commandments into the "disputable matters" category. That concerns me. Christ and the Apostles gave us commandments that were to be followed. Christ himself discussed the importance of staying firm and following God's commandments. Why do you get to decide that they are now only disputable matters and no longer commands? Paul didn't mean EVERYTHING was permissable - that would include killing, adultery, etc. He meant those things that were NOT AGAINST HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Here are some verses you may want to study:

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
1 Titus 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2 Peter 2: 1-4 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
2 Peter 3: 2-3 "That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,


If Christian's do not follow God's commandments and follow the Truth, remain constant in our faith and teachings, and admonish those that don't....are we really Christians?

I wonder how you feel about Christ's own statement in Mat 7: 13-15:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Good luck in your studying.

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October 27 2005, 11:28 AM 


I will address a few things but first let me say thanks for a well thought out and concerned reply. This is one of the few repsonse I have seen here that is not just an cheap attempt to lob grenades over to the other side. I truly feel in your tone this time that you do have love and concern unlike other posts that are more focused on being right. Clearly I realize that differences will arise among believers frequently and discussing differences is to be expected. However, my issue with love is the tone and the hatred that has clearly come across more times than not in this post. If we are concerned with obeying God, as all of us should be, then we would all realize he has been more adament about that than any other issue.

That said, when I said before that I have been on both sides of this argument, it is very true. Your last statement..."good luck in your studying"...although a little seemingly condescending, the results of in-depth studying is exactly why I believe what I do today. I am not a change agent, and I agree with you 100% that anyone that just wants to force change on others with complete disregard for their beliefs and feelings is clearly wrong and sinful.

I once found myself resistant to do anything different when it comes to worship. I couldn't stand change in the church and I couldn't stand those who were pushing for it. However, I go to a church with very loving and wise elders and leaders who gently and slowly introduced different ways to worship God more meaningfully and reach lost souls in much greater numbers in our city and neighborhoods. I didn't like it at first because I was uncomfortable, but it definitely was not forced on me. While I was initially resistant, I studied like I never had before with an open mind and heart, trying to separate my faith and beliefs that were scriptural from those that were traditional.

I always hear people talking about the cultural church and how we shouldn't compromise how we do things just because society has changed, and I completely and whole heartedly disagree with this. How is changing some traditions and order of things to a way that puts people on fire for the Lord, excited about serving others inside and outside the church, and brings a multitude of lost souls to Christ wrong and sinful? Do people really think that their church does the exact same things as the new testament church in the first century? Quit kidding yourselves as I once did. The traditional church of Christ structure of worship comes from the 1800s when the restoration came about (modeled after the Methodist model from the 1600s-1800s), with a few minor tweaks since then. All the things I mentioned in my last post (harmony, pitch forks, invitation songs, part solos, PA system, song books, etc...) were introduced well after the first century. How about things they did that we don't do anymore? (1 Cor 14:25-27)Every individual had a song and a revelation (or testimony) to bring to worship, many spoke in tongues, there was prophesying (from both men and women). Other than when Paul and Jesus attracted masses for sermons, I don't see evidence of a preacher (definitely not a paid one). In Timothy, Paul encourages us to lift up holy hands to the Lord.

If we truly tried to replicate the first century church, there would be more barbs thrown out from the traditionalists about that than there are now about the current day "change agents".

How about getting beyond the 2-3 hours out of a 168 hour week that we are in a public worship and talk about how we live our lives and affect others. The bible spends much more time on that than it does on the few passages about how we do public worship. Instead of chiding each other about lifting hands, using praise teams, and changing a worship service a little to make it real and meaningful to the brethren in the church and to those seeking Christ without violating scriptural integrity, why don't we talk more about how we live our lives.

How much do we allow the world to pollute us and give satan a foothold? What movies are we going to? What tv shows do we watch? Do we really serve the sick and lost as Jesus did or do we just focus on keeping our little group happy and comfortable? What do we spend our money on? How materialistic and envious have we become? How evangelistic are we with our friends and co-workers (Great Commission)? How do we talk to and treat our kids? our parents? our spouses? On and On and On we could go about relevant topics and issues that either hinder or strengthen our walk with God, yet we seem obsessed with how we do something that comes around a few hours a week. Worshipping God and following Christ goes way beyond that with many more relevant issues.

Now to address a few of your specific responses...

I don't follow your assertion that I see only "me" in my thoughts about love. My feelings about others and love is much more sacrificial and selfless than it was when I was driven by holding firm to my traditions. Holding steadfast to my traditions and trying to force others to as well is what I consider selfish. I can agree that for those "change agents" out there, there can be selfishness and a "me" focus, but traditionalists are as big if not bigger change agents around the brotherhood. If you or others tell me I have to do things a certain way because I am not currently doing it, then you are a change agent as well...changing us back to what you think is right.

As I have mentioned before, I and most others I worship with are not change agents. What may be a relevant worship style for me may not be for some other person in some other place. I want anyone to worhip as they desire as long as it is done in scriptural (not traditional) intregrity. Now if you want to talk about specific issues and styles of worship that you feel are a sin against God, then please lay them out on the table for a discussion and show me scripturally where and how they are sinful. I will listen and respond.

In terms of your LAW response. You still seem to think that in the New Testament we were set up under a different law now just like we were under the old law, just a set of different rules. I disagree. If that were the case, the law and all of the 10, 20, 30 steps would have been spelled out for us as it was in the Old Testament, and Christ's death would be worth nothing. These verses from my initial response address this better than I can, Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..", Gal 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteouness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" Gal 3:24-25 "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law" Gal 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

The New Testament is not a rule book. Christ did not die so we could go from one law to another. We do not have a walk of faith that requires us to carry around a check list. We no longer love and obey God because we're told to or else. We do so because out of love and faith we absolutely long to please and serve Him as we fully accept his grace through the selfless sacrifice of His Son. Please read these verses carefully (especially Gal 5:4). This is my desire for you out of saddness and disappointment as well (not outrage however).

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October 27 2005, 10:08 PM 


My comment about studying was meant as a "keep it up" not to be condescending.

As for law...I don't think you are getting my point. There is no law but there are commandments. We cannot remove them or ignore them. We are told to abide by them. However, as a Christian we are commanded to do everything (word or deed) in the name of the Lord. As such, that is the toughest commandment in the Bible.

Why do I say that? Because, it means we must look at everything we do and weigh it against God's commandments and Christ's sacrifice. It means we are to be a Christian 24 hours a day. Not worship 24 hours a day, but BE a Christian 24 hours a day. It can be exhausting, especially to a new Christian. We are not to cause others to stumble. We are to show our "light". So saying, it means I have to review my actions / thoughts / motives / beliefs / feelings / comments at all times. I have to monitor my TV shows, movies, friends, etc. I have to be on the lookout for those moments I am OF the world. It would be much easier to have a list of no-no's. I could just check them off and go about my business. Of course I'm going to mess up - but my goal is to mess up less and less. It does become easier as you mature and you realize that you naturally start to avoid the temptations and world.

As for your comment regarding the Early Church. Fortunately, there are enough historical letters, apologies, commentaries available from the 1st and 2nd century to give us a very good understanding of how the early church operated before it split under Roman rule. A review of those letters indicate that our worship service is very much like theirs. Instead of having a Bible, they had copies of the Apostles letters and we are able to determine that our scriptures are the same. They used the same scriptures as the "legalists" for their stance on instruments, baptism, the HS, women, etc. There are some excellent books available that have these historical writings. David Bercot has several, one which is a dictionary of early Christian Beliefs. You can actually see about when the Church began to splinter and go off the original path. You can also see when Agustine took it completely off the path. Very interesting stuff.

Anyway, there are examples of services and they are very close to ours. They may have spent more time there, but they also had to go a much longer distance (sometimes a day or more) to get there. So, they took advantage of their time together and not only worshipped together, but had lunch and dinner as friends before/after the service. It is important to remember that speaking in tongues does not mean gibberish, but refers to different languages of the people. It explains how they had to learn around their language differences - big problem at the time.

Remember, we are commanded to be steadfast and remain firm in our teachings. WE ARE NOT TO BE OF THIS WORLD. Therefore, cultural differences should not be important as they are based ON the world. In fact, there are Roman writings that discuss how the early Christians did not participate in worldly events and seemed extremely odd to them. They thought they were stupid and backwards because they did not get into politics/theater/games/society. The Christians remained apart except when they were trying to teach his Word. They were know for propriety, quiet gentleness, sharing of their goods, etc. In fact, they irritated the Romans with their refusal to join in social life. The early Christians refused to be part of their world, why are we to be a part of ours?

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Mark ( not the other one)


November 14 2005, 1:27 PM 

PPB...sorry about the name (Mark) confusion. Although the other Mark shared some similar sentiment, that was not my post on the other thread as you may have thought. I will stay on this thread and just be Mark. Other Mark, if you post on this one, keep "the other one" in your name so our friends don't get confused. Thanks for your post here, BTW.

I am very interested in church history, and have spent a great amount of time researching it. I understand that some of the issues that the church of Christ deal with today were similar issues that other affiliations have dealt with in the past (women's roles, instruments, etc...). I have not seen anything that documents specifically and exactly how the church worshipped in the 1st and 2nd centuries. If those do exist, I would be interested in reading them. Please send me specific references.

That said, I still don't think the order and structure of worship is something that was intended to be rigid with no room for adjustments as warranted. If that were the case, then Paul and others would have given us a blueprint. We do not have a blueprint...we just have guidelines and things to consider in order to have effective worship. I have already included a laundry list of things that we do today that they didn't do in the early church (harmony, PA systems, 1 song leader, pitch pipes, pulpits, invitation songs, etc...). What makes these things better than something like not raising hands to the Lord? We are specifically told to raise our hands in worship, yet that is frowned upon by many churches. If you take a step back and look at the issues, how is doing the things we have invented ourselves over the centuries and they did not do then (list above) considered to be things that should absolutely be done, while things that are specifically mentioned to do (raising hands, women having heads covered, etc..) are not done and even looked down upon by some. There are major inconsistencies by most of the traditionalists. You are being driven in large part by your comfort zone. Many think (subconsciously), that anything that is different than what they have experienced in worship in the past must be wrong.

Comfort Zone thinking that is driven primarily by traditions is a big hindrance to a closer relationship with God and bringing many more souls to Him. Remember I am speaking from experience as as one who was there not too long ago. I will specifically address the things you (PPB) mentioned in your post to the other Mark on the other thread:

How can a true Christian dismiss sections of the NT? The Progressive churches do. How does a True Christian ignore the following scriptural facts?
the role of baptism in our salvation
the command against women as teachers/leaders of Christian men
the example of worship that Jesus set
the command to SING (not play) with your heart
the command that ALL must sing (that leaves out any wood/brass players)
the command to remain steadfast in our beliefs and to remain so until He returns
the command to admonish and even turn away from false teacher
the warning that false teachers would be here and cause division in the Church
the command to NOT be of this world
the command to pray in a dark room alone rather than show off your Christianity
the command to live a quiet, devout, subdued lifestyle
the command to NOT cause others to stumble
the command to NOT get drunk
and the list continues....

First of all you refer to everything as scriptural facts:
Let's look at them:

Most of the "progressive churches" I know (at least mine) have a very big emphasis on baptism. You can not read through the new testament and surmise that baptism is an option to someone that desires to follow God. My only difference here is that many people believe that the act of baptism is the end all be all and litmus test of salvation and anything else in regards to their walk of faith before and after is not really relevant. It is what a follower does in response to understanding the message and Good News. You give me a believer that is in the early stages of following Jesus and has already given his heart and life to Him and is on his way to the baptistry to confirm their obedience and new life but is killed in a car wreck on the way or trips and bashes their head in fatally before they are actually baptized, and I say there is no, nor should there be, any question about their salvation. To say otherwise would be the ultimate and extreme example of legalism.

You don't think there will be people in heaven that were not baptised? How about people that have come to Jesus and were killed before they found that baptistry - soldiers for example. If I were one of the soliders days away from storming Omaha beach and I had been spending some significant time learning in the Word, learning what God desires, I spend time in prayer with Him, and acknowledge that I need to fully give my life to Him. Next to me is my church of Christ buddy from whom I seek Godly wisdom. "Friend, I am in love with God and want nothing more than to fully give my life to Him in love and obedience. I am worried that I have not had an opportunity to be baptised yet as God desires me to be. We have not seen a body of water big enough in 3 weeks. We head to the ocean tomorrow and go straight across without stopping. I will be the first one out of the boats. I will likely not make it. What should I do?" His church of Christ buddy who has been such a big influence on him says, "well in that case give it up. Since we can't get you underneath a body of water before then there is really no hope for salvation. Just cross your fingers that you will not be killed."

How about kids in the 10-15 year age group? Do you think there is clearly 1 exact day where they have come to the place where they fully know and accept God and want to have their own relationship with Him? And if they are not baptised on that exact day, their souls are doomed until they are actually baptised? If that is the case, then there will be an awful lot of good, God seeking kids in hell.

You can choose to take a hard line stance as many choose to do and say it is black and white without any exceptions, but that would be saying God is harsh and is out to get us when He can. Again, it goes back to how God set Himself us to us when we were bridged to Him through Jesus. We are his children. Would that be your decision for your children given the examples above? For the record...if someone is following Christ and makes the decision not to be baptised because they feel that would be legalistic, I clearly feel they are deliberately disobeying God and are in jeopardy at judgment.

I am glad that you distiguished the role of women with your statement here. In my detailed study of women's roles I believe it boils down to a spiritual authority issue. We may agree here. However, many believe that women can't be in any visible and influential role at church, and I wholeheartedly disagree with that. If you take the scripture, ..."women should remain silent.." literally, then you better very well be taping every women's mouth with tape when they walk through the doors because even in the most conservative churches I have been in you hear a lot more women voices throughout the church halls than men's voices. Doesn't sound like silence to me, and if we are to take everything literally without considering context, then I would be afraid of losing my souls over that one.

How about during classes. Do you have women reading scriptures there or making comments? If so, how do you justify it? It's not corporate worhsip service? Can you really justify women being able to read scripture or express scriptural opionions in one room, yet when you go to the other larger room, they must not make a peep other than to sing?

Again, how do many traditionalists justify condemning those that do things that have no scriptural relevance when they have cherrry picked things (the extent that women should remain silent for example) they do and left other things out (hand raising for example). If you really want to do exactly what the scriptures say, then do it in entirety.

Jesus didn't talk about worship. He talked about reaching out, loving and serving others. He talked about a true commitment and relationship with God. He didn't give us a laundry list of things to do and how to do them. He taught us the kind of heart we should have and how we live our lives. It was Paul and others, that later discussed how to worhip because many of the churches were losing their focus and direction.

I see you added "not play" in your text. Isn't that adding to the scriptures. It says to sing with your heart. How do instruments get mixed in here. I play 3 or 4 instruments, and I can tell you when I am at home and feel compelled to express myself in love to my Father, I get out the guitar or play the piano and sing something I know or make up something...and I can tell you it is FROM and WITH MY HEART. Having instruments while making music in my heart is irrelevant. For the record, my church worships a capella. That is how I prefer things. However at times I have been a part of worship with instruments and I listen to Christian music often. I am not about to say that is sinful or wrong, and I'm not about to say that other churches that honor God and His Word but worship with instruments are in danger of hellfire.

With insturments being an important part of worship in the Old Testament, it is ludicrous to say that God would now REQUIRE us to do it without instruments yet He just didn't happen to mention that fact in scripture.

I don't see any scripture that tells us to remain steadfast in our beliefs. In fact, that would be a pretty ludicrous command. If I'm a Jehovah's Witness disciple or if I'm Morman and I read that in scripture that would make me feel pretty good and would be pretty easy to do...just to keep doing what you believe.

If you were up on and studied the history of things that were going on during the times when Paul and Peter warned of false teachers, you would know that the problems the early christians were having was being influenced by false teachings that either denied the deity of God and/ or Jesus. they were teaching something completely different in just the basics. Some taught that Jesus was just a prophet and not God's Son and part of His plan. Some taught things that were prevalent in that day...myths, worshipping other gods, idols, etc..

Bottom line is false doctrine or teachings referred to in scripture were things being taught that were completely against and contradictory to God's Word and His teachings, and who Jesus was, etc...It does not refer to teachings that were just different interpretations of a few issues in God's Word.

What does Paul tell us about having different intrepretations rather than a completely different message?
1 Tim 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

I'm with you here. I think we have all ("traditionalists" and "progressives") fallen victom to Satan's lure of the world. I've said it before, and I'll say it again....These are things that require more focus and discussion rather than how specifically we structure a worship service.

I'm not sure why this is included in your list, but I'll comment. Jesus taught us to not put on a spiritual display for others to see and marvel at. This is what some were doing back then. When it was cool to be religious and have others see you that way, then people were putting on public displays by praying loudly for others to help.

This should not be an excuse for us to never pray in public. Now adays, it really isn't cool to be seen praying in public. If I choose to say a prayer ar a restaurant with my family, I believe that reminds us and shows our kids where our emphasis is and has nothing to do with Jesus telling them not to put on public displays of how religious you are.

I think what would be more relevant to Jesus' teaching here is when men get up in public worship and obviously try to sound theological and spritural and want others to see them that way. Talk to God from your heart and do as Paul tells us to do...pray continually.

I'm not sure what the scriptural support is for this. If there is some, please pass them on. But it seems like this is more of a personality issue. Paul sure didn't live a quiet, subdued life. He was out beating the bushes and preaching loudly and boldly for people to turn to and follow God. He said what was on his mind. Jesus lived a life for us to follow and emulate. Jesus said in Matthew, "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" That doesn't sound like quiet and subdued to me.

How can we carry out the Great Commission if we are quiet and subdued?

We are called not to cause or influence our brothers to sin or to do anything that would cause them to fall away from God. If I have a discussion with someone about how I interpret worship or how important I think women are in the church, does this cause them to sin against or fall away from God?

Again, I'm not sure why this made the list, but I think God's view on drunkeness is pretty clear.

Have you ever been to one? All we do at our church is recognize all of the babies and their parents, and the elders charge their parents to bring that child up in a Godly, Christlike manner. They are not sprinkled, they are not declared saved for life. The parents just leave there with a deeper understanding of their Godly responsibility of raising Godly children. We all need reminders and reinforcement of doing God's will. If we didn't, we would not need to go to church or ever listen to any sermons.

We do not have women deacons at our church. But if you interpret a deacon as "servant" as your rightly do, then aren't there many women at your church who are visible servants. Whether we give them a recognized title or not seems pretty irrelevant. They would still do things and continue serving as they were before.

I agree with you in that when the scriptures discuss the qualifications of a Deacon, they are to have one wife. But the Greek does not have a word for "wives" so some think that when it talks about wives later in the text, it can be interpreted to be the women who are deacons (or deaconesses). It is a topic I have not studied much, but I would say personally I prefer to recognize men as deacons. I will not condemn someon, however, because they interpret that a little differently. After all, going back to your original definition. Deacon is a servatn, and we know that all churches have an awful lot of women servants.

I look forward to replies and reactions PPB or anyone else.

In Him


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Mark (the other Mark)

Christian Love

November 13 2005, 4:37 AM 


Good to know there is another Mark out there... I am the Mark from the "Our Division and Paralysis" thread.

I too wonder how long we will let Satan divide us based on 2-4% of our week. I appreciate your comments.

We will never be a church that God desires if we continue to be so divisive with one another. THe Word says that "You will know they are Christians by thier Love." So, what does the world see when we divide, say hateful things, and put down one another? Our worship, no matter how right in action, can not be acceptable if it comes from unclean hearts.

We are called to "be of the same mind." If God, through Paul, would deliver such a message, it must be achieveable. But, it is only achievable if we show true christian love to one another.

Col 3:8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth….put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

It is my hope, my prayer, that we can put aside the decades of inward focused division and stand firm "in one spirit, with one mind, working side by side for the faith of the gospel."

In christian Love

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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