You probably are the same group that 8-10 years ago mailed books to everyone; saying RHCC was wrong for having a kitchen and praise singers.

If you feel so strongly about what you are promoting, then put your names on the cards and fliers. Stand up and take responsibility for your statements.

You may be, as the words stated Sunday, being attacked by Satan to disrupt and break away, etc..... If you feel so strongly, talk to the elders, then go your way or continue to pray and have faith that the Lord will take care of it, without all the propaganda.

Okay so I had my say but I think you said it with fewer words and better. I did not agree with the elders decision and was afraid this would happen. People are always ready to take pot shots and at successful congregation saying that "Satan" is taking over. They need to take care of their own problems ... our churches are autonomous for a reason.

Blessings

These issues must seem important or petty to some depending on your opinion,but god loves us all men and women,and wants us to all live in peace and harmony even though this is earth and he has not returned yet,but he does not forget,but he does forgive.As for those who other view as being divisive,whether they are actually being divisive or just being slandered unjustly of being divisive,The lord our God watches this being done to innocent people and he will make the judgement about them not men not women,When I was baptised into this church last year,I did this not only for my own beliefs,but in the beliefs that I could make this world a little better in all of our short time on this earth in Gods hand,We are all in gods hands,no matter how much power we acquire on this small space in time on this world.If scripture that comes from the power of the holy spirit says that something is law then the bible is the law of spirituality,If women or men are meant to preach it is through the power of the holy spirit,Maybe the church since we are only humans who fall short of the grace of God but are saved through the lords forgiveness could hold a vote by the members,I pray that this church we decide on the best interest of its great members and elders and staff.
In him,Chris Castillo

There are SOULS to save!
Before the RAPTURE!

I have never found it in the Bible so it blows my mind that so many people believe in it.

Has anyone responded about where they get this? I have never found it, either. I am really worried about the direction the churches of Christ are going in. Must we be "politically correct"? We are losing our freedom of worship as well as truth in worship.

Premillenialim teaches that Jesus came to earth at the first advent. He was defeated by Satan or as Max Lucado would say that Satan murdered Jesus as a blubbering, pathetic little fellow who didn't know what was happening.

The defeated Jesus (the Jesus who came in Lucado's vial of life) high tailed it back to heaven to gather his strength. About now He is supposed to make a SECOND CHARGE and HE needs our help this time: we must establish the kingdom before He returns.

We will, they say, be given glorified and immortal bodies.

They will meet with Christ in the air and return with Him to rule the earth for 1000 years. You know, riding a white horse to restore Jerusalem.

There will be 1000 years of justice and peace.

At the end of the 1000 years (millennium) Satan is loosed to deceive the nations. Satan's has an ecumenical movement as a world-wide or global church (Max and Oak Hills joined). These people who preach the Now but Not Yet Kingdom (Rubel Shelly) include extremists who believe that for assisting Jesus (pure legalism) they will hand out rewards and kill the enemy (the old church of Christ which refused to BOW to Baal in music.) Their assault against the people who PAY THEIR WAGE is truly murderous.

After the final battle (which, we believe, is a polemical battle of the WORD and not a War of the World going on now), Jesus and his CHANGE AGENTS will rule in Jerusalem called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation.

Singers and musicians were prostitutes and sodomites and Jerusalem which was THE DUELING MOUNTAINS was and is a Jebusite High Place which God gave to David when David could never return to GOD'S place at Gibeon. The Jerusalem kings were, along with Israel, given in God's anger and taken away in His anger. This Sodom (Hagar-Egypt) city is SET ON SEVEN HILLS and was the only LAWFUL place for MUSIC and animal sacrifices at types of what the Levitical singers would do to Jesus as He was "sacrificed."

Have you noted: "OAK hills, Richland Hills, WOODmont, Westover HILLS links (Rick Hall Farmer's Branch), Southern Hills....."

ZOE in legend was the mothe of Jehovah and she forced him to form Musical Worship Teams to praise the FEMINIST goddesses. The Zoe Group supported by Rubel Shelly just held their LOOK TO THE HILLS seminar to train your people how to take captive your church with musicians, singers, actors etc. The MARK is jus this: The Bible asks a question: "SHALL we look to the hills" meaning the gods of the hills and mountains. The end time agents have HORNS but horns speak of musical instruments of those who want to be Mountains.

See our link to Rubel Shelly and Max Lucado claiming that the dying Jesus gave the Holy Spirit (person) to be the SONG WRITER and DANCE MASTER. Their code words confess more than they want to confess but God MARKS vipers with rattles." God will NOT allow them to perform as rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers, musicians and craftsmen (temple and magical interior) without PROVIDING YOU A MEANS OF ESCAPE. Therefore, he MARKS them by the use of Greek terms which speak of sorcerers and PARASITES.

http://www.piney.com/WinMaxDance.html

For those under the Kosmokraetor, their future is on the EARTH and the present false teachers have to RID THEMSELVES of distinctive doctrine--even taking Christ out of their acknowledgement-so that everyone will love US rather than force us to suffer with the suffering Savior.

In the Bible we meet the Lord in the Air and no hint that we will return to an earth which as COSMOS belongs to Satan the KOSMOKRAETOR and will be burned up with a great FIRE. Those who want an EARTHLY KINGDOM after which many mega churches are PATTERNED will get their wish but TEMPLES seem to be the special TARGET of God's wrath which he POURS OUT in the Bible by sending BUFFOONS.

The wandering stars (heretics) are identified by Saturn whose number is 666 and others. And astronomers are truly troubled about an attack from some kind of planetary smack. ?Could be? The musicians will be in a TRUMPET quartet and already brain damaged to being BYTE-SIZED-EMOTIONAL brains will not even know what struck them. ME? I anticipate and WATCH and STAY AWAKE and KEEP MY CLOTHES WITH ME (warning those who joined in the perverted, Dionysus attack on Jesus led by little abused boys and girls {symbols} leading the chorus.

Ksublett@piney.com

Mr. Sublett, instead of using all the put down descriptions, why not supply biblical answers for your desent.

The word rapture is not in the bible, however the meaning of the word is.

Harpazo (har-pad'-zo) is the Greek word which the New Testament translators have rendered as "caught up". "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up [Greek, harpazo] to the Third Heaven" (2Corinthians 12:2). "Rapture" is taken from an obsolete French word, which means "abduction" or "to carry off". Though Greek scholars may refrain from using "rapture" to translate "harpazo", it is not a wresting of Scripture for the honest Christian to see the connection between the two. "According to your faith be it unto you" (Matthew 9:29).

As for the destruction of the earth which you mention, have you considered that this is same term which was used to describe the flood. We know the earth was not completely destroyed during the flood. The best way to understand the destruction of the earth in Revelation is to view in in the same manner as the flood which is a cleansing or purging.

If you are worried about my DESENT, a distant cousin does the genealogy page. Destroyed in Genesis means to RUB CLEAN.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe.3:10


Luo (g3089) loo'-o; a prim. verb; to "loosen" (lit. or fig.): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Comp. 4486.


Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe. 3:11

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe. 3:12


Fire is: Puroo (g4448) poo-ro'- o; from 4442; to kindle, i.e. (pass.) to be ignited, glow (lit.), be refined (by impl.), or (fig.) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust): - burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

Melt is Teko (g5080) tay'-ko; appar. a prim. verb; to liquefy: - melt


Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pe. 3:13

As an engineer, I can think of SEVERAL ways that the earth can be utterly consumed and turned into scattered matter. Another body made of anti-matter could wipe it out with a roaring fire and turn it into wave motion or worse. And, you may have noticed, that lots of research is being spent on looking for and intercepting stray bodies close to us--just in case.

Yep, the earth will be purged of sin with fire in the same way the earth was clensed with water. There is a water baptism and a baptism with fire. The earth shall remain forever.

The earth will last forever.
"That thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for ever." Deuteronomy 4:40

"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever." Psalm 37:29

"The earth which he hath established for ever." Psalm 78:69

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." Psalm 104:5

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." Ecclesiastes 1:4

Escotology should never be a salvation issue anyway, just like many other things you add to the gospel. The pharasis thought they had a better understanding than anyone else, you my friend are a modern day pharisee, full of pride.

Btw, I hope you understand engerineering better than the things of God, if not you will have failed in both categories.

I did a search on the Title of the Article that I recently wrote and your comment came up on the alltheweb search engine. I thought I might respond - you may like what I have come to understand from the bible.

Brian

Rapture Smapture
Paul is seen in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 to counsel His students to avoid sleep. Does this mean that to be a faithful Christian we are to give up sleep? Yes – at least the kind of sleep Paul is referring to in these verses.
-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 5:6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

This type of “sleep” is then the type that causes a person to not be alert or sober.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 refers to people who are asleep and the same sleep is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 5:7. The subject is the state of those people called the “sleepers” and that subject has not changed as the transition is made from chapter 4 to chapter 5. The proof that there has been no change in topic is seen as the word “them” is used in 1 Thessalonians 5:3. The use of this word suggests a continuation of the conversation concerning the group of people mentioned in chapter 4.

This means that the “sleep” referred to is actually the sinful condition of some of Paul’s fellow Christians.

This same “sleep” is likened to being “dead in Christ” in 1 Thessalonians 4 verses 16. This can be called being dead in sins and transgressions, Ephesians 2:1.

The terms "dead" and “dead in Christ” link 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52.

This sleeping condition is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 16. The method of change from “sleeping” to being “awake” is alluded to in these verses. That method is attention directed towards the sound of the “Last Trumpet”. The Lord descends in the sound of the Last Trumpet. At the same time the person's glance is directed towards the sound of the “last trumpet”.

1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 make reference to the Lord descending. He descends in a moment – in a glance of the eye – and in the sound of the last trumpet.

Jesus is the first and the Last. He is the personification of the sound of the Last trumpet, Revelation 1:10-18.

-- New American Standard Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

-- New American Standard Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

1 Corinthians 15:52. |1722| in |0823| a moment |1722| in |4493| a glance |3788| of an eye, |1722| at |3588| the |2078| last |4536| trumpet. |4537| will trumpet |1063| For, |2532| and |3588| the |3498| dead ones |1453| will be raised |0862| incorruptible |2532| and |2249| we |0236| will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16. |3754| Because |0848| himself |3588| the |2962| Lord |1722| with |2752| a word |1722| of command |5456| by a voice |0743| of an archangel, |2532| and |1722| with |4533| a trumpet |2316| of God, |2597| will descend |0575| from |2772| Heaven, |2532| and |3588| the |3498| dead |1722| in |5547| Christ |0450| will rise again

These verses show the reader how a person “changes” from a corruptible state to one of incorruptibility.

By implication this is also the method whereby so called “sleeping Christians” can “Wake Up”.

This is really becoming apparent to most believers. It is a glance towards Jesus and adherence to His words, similar to what happened with the Apostle Peter in the stormy sea, Matthew 14:30.

To literally interpret an obvious “parable” is to read the bible through the eyes of the unlearned Christians or unbelievers. We don’t have to guess as to whether or not these verses are expressed in parabolic language. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that this information is expressed in a “mystery” or parable.

A parable is a “mystery” or message expressed in Tongues, 1 Corinthians 14:2 and Matthew 13:14. This shows us that Paul intended the reader or recipient of this letter to understand that he was veiling this information in a “mystery” and not speaking literally.

-- New American Standard 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

-- New American Standard Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

-- New American Standard Matthew 13:14 "And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, `You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;

A literal interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 distorts the meaning of these verses in order to suggest what is commonly called a “rapture”. A mystery or parable is intended to allow believers to understand and to hide the true meaning from unbelievers and unlearned or "ungifted" believers, 1 Corinthians 14:16 and 23.

If the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 are referring to the same “sleep” then it is apparent that the sleep referred to is that of being willfully involved in sin.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15 the group of “sleepers” is contrasted to the group who has remained in the coming or “presence” of the Lord.

The word translated “coming” can just as accurately be translated as “presence” as is shown in the following definition from the Strong’s concordance.

3952. parousia parousia, par-oo-see'-ah

from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, “presence”.

This being the case, Paul would be saying in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that all Christians will not willfully fall into sin and forsake the “presence” of the Lord. All Christians however, regardless of their being "awake" or "asleep", will be changed towards incorruption through their attention to the Lord Jesus Christ and His words.

To understand these verses a few adjustments in translation must be made and the basis for these adjustments must be understood as accurate translation. As the verses which require alternate translation are studied the reasons and the accuracy of the new wording will be shown to be equally as accurate as the original translation.

A person should understand that the translation from the Greek is not exact. Each word can be translated accurately and defined accurately by several English words.

When looking closely at the verses in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 beginning at verse 13 we can understand the following -

-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

Paul is writing to His brethren and encouraging them not to grieve over those who are "asleep".

The first term that needs to be defined and explored in this context is “asleep”.

Verse 14 further defines those who "sleep" as “the Christians who have fallen asleep in Jesus”.

So we know that these people were Jesus followers before they fell asleep.

-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

We also now know from verse 14 that God the Father will do to those who “sleep” just as He did with Jesus. This is evidenced through the use of the phrase “even so” which means “in like manner”.

-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

The Greek word “Coming” in verse 15 can be accurately translated as “Presence” as is seen in the above reference from the Strong’s concordance. The word “until” is generally translated as the English word “in” as is seen from the following reference -

1519. eiv eis, ice

a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:--(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), ...ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively).

With these valid adjustments in translation verse 15 can now accurately be read as follows ---

-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain “until” (In the) “coming” (Presence) of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus are separated and made to appear distinct from those who have “remained in the presence of the Lord”. Those who are not in the “presence” of the Lord are those people referred to as having “fallen asleep” in Christ.

So to summarize what has been said so far -- there is one group who has remained in the presence of the Lord and one group who has forsaken the presence of the Lord.

-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Verse 16 requires that the reader remember that Paul is telling his brethren why they should not grieve concerning those who have fallen asleep. The Lord will descend and deal with the brethren who “sleep” in Christ and have not remained in Jesus presence. These are described by the contemporary term of “backsliders”. They will ultimately “rise” after the Lord has intervened in their lives.

There is of course a method in which Jesus deals with these “sleeping Christians”. That method is described in 1 Thessalonians 5 verses 2 and 3 as the "birth pains" or “travail” which occurs during the “Day of the Lord”.

Here it is necessary to understand what Paul meant when He spoke of “rising”. Paul’s understanding of “rising” is seen in Colossians 3:1.

-- New American Standard Colossians 3:1 If then you have been “raised up with Christ”, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

This resurrection is clearly seen to be a progression as is understood from Paul’s statement in Philippians 3:11-13. In these verses Paul states with reference to the resurrection from the dead that He had not yet attained it but continued to strive towards it. This striving is happening in Paul's life on earth and the resurrection spoken about happens while a person is on earth.

Christians are described as being “risen” when they seek the things above where Jesus is seated, Colossians 3:1. It is seen that Christians begin their resurrection from the dead at conversion. Throughout their lives they should continue to strive towards the fulfillment of that resurrection. This is a resurrection from the condition of being dead in sins and transgressions.

A person described as being “asleep” is now seen to be Christian who has not remained in Jesus presence. This person requires divine intervention to “wake up” or stop sinning. They have not continued to seek the things, which are, as Colossians 3:1 suggests, “above where Jesus is seated”. Jesus intervention is necessary to help them continue what is called the “resurrection” from the dead or the first resurrection.

The new term introduced at this point is “wake up” or “awake”. In this context the state of being “awake” is seen to be one where a person does not dwell in darkness, 1 Thessalonians 5:5. Darkness in this verse is not a literal absence of the sun’s light, but the spiritual sinful condition of being separate from the light of Christ, John 8:12. This same thought of being in darkness can be expressed as a person who is not in the light of Jesus “presence” and not seeking the things that are above.

-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 5:5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

-- New American Standard John 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."

It becomes clear that these people who “sleep” are not those who are physically dead but are those Christians who have not remained in the spiritual condition called the "presence" of the Lord. They have fallen “asleep” or fallen back into sin.

Keep in mind that the "Coming of the Lord" is accurately translated "Presence of the Lord". This understanding prevents many misunderstandings in this area of Christian doctrinal interpretation.

Paul tells His brethren in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 not to grieve over those, which are asleep in Jesus, as they would grieve over those who have no hope. In other words He tells them not to consider the backsliders to be in the same hopeless condition as that of the hopeless unbelievers.

God will “raise” the “sleeping Christians” or as 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “bring” or “bring forth” those sleepers.

The word bring can and is translated as “bring forth” (Strongs word number 71) in two instances in the KJV.

71 agw ago ag’-o a primary word; ; v AV-bring 45, lead 12, go 7, bring forth 2, misc 5, vr bring 1; 72

The term “bring them forth with Jesus” refers to God helping them progress in their spiritual resurrection just as He physically raised Jesus from the dead.

Philippians 1:6 illustrates what is happening and being described in these verses from 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians.

-- New American Standard Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it "until" (in or during) the day of Christ Jesus.

God is finishing the good work that He began in the lives of the backslidden brethren by initiating the “retribution” or the judgment of the “Day of the Lord”. The fallen brethren will be perfected or made incorruptible and brought forth into the resurrected life of Christ as a result of this judgement. This is more clearly understood when seen from the perspective of 1 Corinthians 11:32.

-- New American Standard 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.

To further identify this so-called “sleep” notice that in 1 Thessalonians 5: 6 the brethren are encouraged not to “sleep”.

Paul encourages the brethren not to sleep as those who are "dead in Christ" do. The admonition keep themselves from “sleeping" suggests they have the choice of whether to sleep or remain awake. It becomes clear then that the aforementioned “sleeping” Christians would have previously and “willfully” chosen to go to “sleep”.

The word “willfully” is very important and pertains directly to the way in which Jesus will descend to deal with these sinful Christians.

Paul tells the people who are awake and in Jesus presence (the obedient Christian’s) that the brethren who are sinning are not in a hopeless condition. He is saying that God will teach the sinning brethren not to sin. In scriptural terminology this refers to bringing about their resurrection from spiritual death.

The Christians who (as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 suggests) have remained in the presence (Coming) of the Lord are instructed not to “prevent” or “stand in the way of” or “discourage” those Christians who are “asleep”.

Sinful Christians are not to be condemned by the faithful followers of Jesus. They are to be gently corrected as we are told in Galatians 6:1.

-- New American Standard Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Below is the definition of the Greek word translated "Prevent" in the King James Version of the Bible(KJV).

5348. fyanw phthano, fthan'-o apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:--(already) attain, come, prevent.

It is very important to understand that Paul is relaying a "command" from the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Jesus is saying that the faithful Christians are not to hinder the repentance of the sleeping brethren.

Since the Lord (through the Apostle Paul) issued this "command" so assertively we can (possibly) make the following assumption.

Some of the Christians of that time period were reluctant to let their sinful brethren return to the fellowship, even after they had repented.

The believers of that time period had trouble forgiving their sinful brothers and sisters, just as contemporary Christians do.

New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until (In) the coming (Presence) of the Lord, shall not precede (prevent or Stand in the way of) those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

Those that are dead in Christ are said to “rise” first. This resurrection must take place before something can happen. This “something” that must take place first is their resurrection. After their resurrection occurs or more properly “is resumed” (since they were in Christ before they fell asleep) they can then join or meet their brethren in the presence of the Lord.

Those referred to as dead in Christ will first rise (rise from being dead in transgressions and sin) and then they will join those that have faithfully remained in the “presence” of the Lord. They will not join their brethren in the “presence” of the Lord until they have stopped willfully sinning.

Why must they “rise” first before they can join their brethren who have remained in the presence of the Lord? A person cannot dwell in the “presence” or Coming of the Lord while they are “asleep” or while they willfully remain in a sinful condition.

-- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (seized) together with them in the clouds (Spirit) to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

They will meet the faithful followers who have remained in Jesus “presence” in the “Air”.

The “air” is the domain of the one called the prince of the power of the air as Ephesians 2:2 illustrates.

-- New American Standard Ephesians 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

The word “air” shows that this happens during this lifetime and while we are susceptible to the influences of the “prince of the power of the air” in other words, the devil.

As to this sinful condition of “sleep” being a “willful” condition consider the following –

Right after Paul tells the faithful brethren not to stand in the way of the “sleeping” or sinful brethren He then goes into a discussion concerning the “Day of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5.

The Day of the Lord is a time or period of recompense. It becomes clear that the willfully sinful brethren will be brought back to the “presence” of the Lord through the correction or recompense visited upon them during the time of recompense, 1 Corinthians 11:32.

This recompense is designed by God to cause them to do what is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52, “change or make progress towards incorruptibility ”. The sinful brethren will “rise” as they gaze at or fix their spiritual eyes (or attention) upon Jesus.

As the Lord descends upon these sinful Christians He deals with them through judgement in order to correct the corrupt behavior.

This judgement of the “Day of the Lord” is described after the question about the Dead in Christ is addressed. This shows us that the “sleep” has been willful sin because the Day of the Lord (or the time of judgement) is to be expected only after a Christian “willfully” sins, Hebrews 10:26-27. This concept of willfully sinning is contrasted with the person who accidentally or ignorantly sins.

-- New American Standard Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27. but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

During the time or period of recompense called the “Day of the Lord” only Jesus Christ will be exalted or considered acceptable. Everyone else will be humbled.

Jesus will be the standard or measuring rod against which others will be judged.

Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Thus ends the rapture – smapture discussion.

Th – Th – That’s all folks!

http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/brmicke/

What rapture???? I cant find it in my Bible.........

I can't think of anything. Besides I like shining the light of the Word and bugging the children of darkness. In other words I like getting in Satan's face, he had he's way with me for a long time, now it's my turn. Thank you LORD Jesus and thank you Holy Spirit.

Let's clarify, real quick. You consider what you are doing on this Web site to be the work of the Lord? Did you miss the Great Commission? The greatest commandment? Somehow, I had in my mind that those things were the work of the Lord rather than condemning people over doctrinal issues. And apparently, you consider the people you are arguing with over minor doctrinal differences to be "children of darkness"? Just checking.

Just Checking,

Have you read some of the articles on this site? Have you studied them on your own? Check out some books at your local christian college and verify that the statements made are true and accurate. Have you read "Navigating the Winds of Change" by Lynn Anderson? Have you read "The Purpose Driven Church"? Have you read the preface in the NIV?

All we ask is that you educate yourself on these matters. You can draw your own conclusions then.

No book written to "expose" movements, etc is my basis for what I believe and for what Christ has called us to be.

Anyone remember Goebl Music? I'd say that he is Mr. McKnight & Co's hero, rather than Christ. The only pattern I see at RHCC is one of seeking to follow scripture, and reach others for Christ.

I can guarantee that your Elders and your Preacher have read these books. These are the manuals for the church growth movement. If you want to see where your church is headed I recommend you educate yourself. Did you even read my post? One of the recommendations I made was to read the preface in the NIV. This is in your Bible. You'll see that the translators did not make a literal translation, but sought to translate the "thoughts" of the original writers.

Here are some scriptures for you:

Acts 17:11
1 John 4:5
Romans 12:2
2 Timothy 4:3-4
Ephesians 4:14-15
Galatians 1:6-10
1 Timothy 4:1-2

I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you and open your eyes. I pray that your conscience has not been seared with a hot iron.

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Revelation 22:21

Any translation attempts to put the intent of the original author into another language. Ever read a literal Greek translation of the NT? It's difficult, if not impossible, to get at the meaning. Why? Because we aren't Greek, nor do we live in the 1st century!

You have to know the culture, how they spoke, idioms, etc...it's like someone saying, "In a pig's eye!" in English. Most of us know that this means, "It'll never happen", or "No way!"...but translated literally into another language, the foreign reader would think the sentence had something to do with pigs! To translate it correctly, you have to find a phrase in the native language of the reader that gets across the same meaning...that is translation, and it's what the NIV team did.

The KJV translators did the same thing, only they were under the rule of a monarch (King James), and part of an existing church that already had a ruling heirarchy as well...tell me they were not influenced by that? I can site examples if you like. For instance, the word "Deacon" does not appear in the Greek text. The actual word, Diakonos (sp?) means "servant". BUT because the KJV translators were part of a church that already had DEACONS, they decided to transliterate the word, rather than translate it. The created a new english word, "Deacon".

I was born and raised in Bangkok, Thailand of a Chinese ancestry. I am conversant in four dialects in Chinese and I speak Thai and Laotian languages fluently beside English. I first came to American 42 years ago, in 1960, when I was 18 years old. In the next few days I will be 60. From 1971 to 1978, I went back to Thailand to serve the Lord. During those seven years, I have translated hundreds of sermons from English to Thai, and sometimes from Thai to English, extemporaneously before live audiences, and this is what I have found.

Each language has its own unique grammatical structure, diction, words, and expressions that sometimes can not be literally translated from one language to another. There is just no exact word equivalent in that other language. Those who know more than one language know what I am talking about. Sometimes, the translator knows that a word, phrase, or an expression when translated literally will be totally foreign to the audience. What is a translator to do? Whether he has ten seconds or ten days to think it over does not matter. If he wants to get the message across, he must do something. The next best thing to do is not to translate but paraphrase or interpret what the speaker is trying to say. Some times, translating, paraphrasing, interpreting, or even explaining a word may negatively impact the audience, the translator might just simply “transliterate” a word, and let those who are inquisitive ask their own questions later. One is naïve to think or to insist that there is only one right way to translate a book or the masterpiece of all ancient literature, such as the Bible, which we all agreed is the inspired word of God.

Was the Bible inspired by God? I do believe He did. Every word written in the original manuscripts, in the original languages, is God breathed. I do not believe, however, that the process of copying or reproduction of these manuscripts or the translation of the manuscripts into other languages is inspired. We all know that there are variants in some manuscripts. We are also aware that manuscript scholars argue with one another as to which major manuscript is more reliable or better. The controversy could continue till hell freezes over, I suppose. But I am satisfied that 99.99999 % of all the thousands of manuscripts that we have today are essentially the same. There is no other ancient literature, Greek or otherwise, comes even close to the consistency of text of the Biblical manuscripts we have today. If God saw fit to take away the original inspired manuscripts and left us with thousands of copies (yes, some with small variations), we must ask, are these trustworthy copies of the originals? Am I wrong to read, investigate, and study them for myself? If I don’t read Greek, can I read it in English or an alpha version in my own language? What if the translation is not very accurate or not very readable? What if it is totally a paraphrase? I still thank God that someone put in the work, which gives me another option to investigate and deepen my knowledge of His word.

I do not believe, however, that a translation into any language, is inspired, ASV, RSV, NKJ, NIV, Thai, Chinese, Navajo, KJV included. God’s word does not change its meaning with the changing time. God has anchored the Greek street language spoken during the time of Christ by making it a dead language where no one speaks it any more. This is the way God froze the meaning of His words in history. All living languages evolve. Words change their meanings due to usage or the lack thereof. Need a proof?

1Cor.16:13 (KJV) Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. What is the meaning of “quit”? I look up in the American College Dictionary. It means: 1. to stop, cease, or discontinue. 2. To depart from; leave. 3. To give up; let go; relinquish… 5. Archaic. To acquit (oneself). Is the KJV instructing the readers to “quit” acting like men? How do I know what is the right meaning? By comparing KJV with several other more contemporary translations. This is an example of a word in the KJV that has gone completely opposite to its original meaning. Imagine with me. Here is young male believer. He does not know anything about Shakespearean English. He has been advised not to use any abominable, easy to read, translation except the Authorized Version KJV. One day, after his quiet time alone, start acting effeminate. He thought he was following God’s word, but everybody looks at him kind of funny, and no one knows why. What does he need to study on his own? A comparative study Bible would definitely help. What about a special dictionary that explains all the words and grammar in the KJV Bible? Is there one available anywhere today? Lots of luck…

Hey, I am not trying to take away the KJV from any one. I have known many Godly persons who love the KJV. They memorize, quote, teach, and preach from KJV. Many have taught me, and I do esteem them highly. Do you want to use KJV? Be my guest. By all means. Please do. I can’t speak for anybody else, but KJV is positively definitely not for me. Promoting KJV to any English-speaking believers below the age of 40’s, in my opinion, is like trying to sell 8-track tape players in a mall full of stores selling CD and DVD’s. Try to conduct a one-on-one Bible study with a college student using KJV and see how practical is the KJV compared with any modern translation. Stop arguing for a minute. Just try it! While you are at it, teach your teenagers to be familiar with King James English too. They just might find it interesting to communicate with their friends.

A church which promote KJV as the only authorized version knows not that although KJV was authorized by King James of England, it is not any more authorized by God than any other translation. None of the “translation” in any language or version, KJV included, is inspired. All Bible translations contain a certain amount of interpretations and paraphrases. Interpretation and paraphrase are not necessarily accurate translations. Moreover, precise literal translation for a lengthy paragraph is impractical if not impossible, let alone lengthy books or a collection of books such as the Bible. Do you need check the accuracy of any Scriptural passage? Go back to consult a copy of the original text, in the original language. Is this not how the “hair splitting discussions” on the subject of deacons at this web site are being played out? Are we so ignorant not to recognize that nearly every player on this web site operates on this very same premise? Reading the materials posted on this web site could give anyone a lot of gray hair in a hurry. A church, which promotes KJV as the only Authorized Version, soon will have only members with gray hair, literally. Not that gray hair church has no place in the kingdom of God. The question is: “Where have the younger ones gone to?” Don’t ask me. Most Shakespearean worriers believe that they are 100 % right. Dead right!

Kevin,

I would rather you not "gurantee" or assume things about the RHCC elders unless you know them and know for a fact that they are basing their decisions on books and church growth movements. Because I do know the elders, I can guarantee you that they base their decisions on the scriptures. They were in the Word and in prayer about this issue for months before making a decision. They (and those who defend them) are not, as some on this Web site have suggested, fulfilling their own "lusts." They are following the scriptures. They would not have made such a change if they did not see the basis for it in the New Testament church. Just because a person draws a different conclusion than you does not mean that they have a malicious intent. Even if they were wrong (which I don't believe they are) couldn't it be an honest mistake or misinterpretation rather than an evil plot?

However, I also want to say that after reading many of the posts on this Web site, I notice that you have been much less attacking and hateful than some and I thank you for that.


H.C.

P.S. Inf reference to the NIV preface - As others have noted further down on the page, when translating there is no way to translate literally because languages are SO different. The others explained it better than I could though so please read some of those postings.

I don't think I used those words; however, after seeing what is happening in my own church and from the postings here I can conclude that there is something secretive about what is going on.

Why is it necessary to keep these actions hidden from the congregation? They prayed and studied for months and not once asked the congregation to pray with them? What would be the reason for this? Were they afraid someone would spoil their plans before it was implemented? After it was implemented then they could say "Sorry, it's already done"? Why would good people do this? My only conclusion can be that they wanted it kept quiet until it was implemented because they knew in their heart of hearts that it was wrong and if the congregation found out what they were up to, they never would have been able to implement the plan.

What do you think would have happened at my church if one of our elders announced one Sunday morning that they were going to have a rehearsal after class of the clapping songs for next week's worship service because the clapping today was a little weak? Instead there was a secretive rehearsal which culminated with the now infamous Sept. 30 clapping worship. And they did rehearse, I was told by my elders that they rehearsed before the service.

Is that the definition of an evil plot? You be the judge.

Ask your Elders about Fellowship Halls and the "Social Church" and watch them squirm. Remember these were introduced unscriptually. Now they remove Deacons...who could possibly stop them now with any Biblical reasoning? Biblical authority was thrown out the windows years ago.

Not so fast...the only pattern you see is scriptural? Really? Please tell me where I can find Biblical authority for a fellowship hall and a gymnasium.

First and Second Maccabees were written in the Inter Testament period and were included in the 1611 KJV.

While not accepted by some as inspired they nevertheless describe parts of the 400 year history between the old and new testaments. For instance, Ecclesiasticus or Ben Sirach gives a clear picture of instrumental music in temple rituals. "Looking backward" even the post-Christian Jews understood that the law and temple were MARKS of their destruction.

http://www.piney.com/DocSirach.html

First Maccabees defines how the Hellenists under Antiochus Epiphanes polluted the temple area. The key ingredients of the Hellenists was eating pork, the GYMNASIUM and MUSICAL PERFORMANCE. Haven't we noted a church claiming to be evangelists taking the Lord's Supper with Barbecue swine still in their teeth: Muslims, Jews and Vegetarians will just LOVE that.

http://www.piney.com/1Macc.htm

This will link you to other documents on the GYMNASIUM as part of GREEK worship.

More in Second Maccabees:

http://www.piney.com/2Macc.html

Third and Fourth Maccabees were not, as far as we know, ever considered inspired. However, it is from Fourth Maccabees that we better understand the Hebrews 11 image of TORTURED which means to make a person into a drum and baton them to death. Turned on its side, the cross was such a frame or "wheel" frame--and they musically mocked Jesus also.

http://www.piney.com/Apoc4Macc.html

The Abaddon or Apollyon of the book of Revelation is the Apollo "god" of the Greeks. Apollo developed a huge Seeker-Center at the Oracle of Delphi where the Corinthian singing and playing (prophesying) women probably got their "religion."

Apollo is the father of "musical harmony, twanging bowstrings to send singing arrows (psallo), thieves and liars." He will again resurrect the Locusts to mark the two types of people. He had a theater and GYMNASIUM as a major attraction to his WORSHIP CENTER.

http://www.piney.com/ClasHomHymApollo.html

Of Aristotle "Alexander departed for his Asiatic campaign; thereupon Aristotle, who, since his pupil's accession to the throne of Macedonia had occupied the position of a more or less informal adviser, returned to Athens and there opened a school of philosophy. He may, as Gellius says, have conducted a school of rhetoric during his former residence in the city; but now,following the example of Plato, he gave regular instruction in philosophy choosing for that purpose a gymnasium dedicated to Apollo Lyceios. Hence his equally famous doctrine that the aim of art is the calming, purifying (katharsis) and ennobling of the affections. For this reason, he prefers music to the plastic arts because it possesses a higher ethical value.

Of course, the object of the Gymnasium is that all of the Pagan "gods" and "platonic love" meant the love of a man for a young boy. That was the EVANGELISTIC MESSAGE of both music and the gymnasium where males were initiated into manhood and trained for warfare.

The error of a GYMNASIUM is that it, like music, seeks to "bring about spiritual changes through external means." That was the meaning of Nimrod and his musical worship team of females.

Since Apollo is the agent who turns loose the MARKERS then we might suggest that the GYMNASIUM and MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS are pretty good signs of the Babylon Whore of Revelation 18. Every city as surplus gymnasiums so look at the church turning form "school of the Bible" to Seeker Sucker Center as a MARK.

Ken Sublett

Better yet, show me biblical authority for a church building.

The church made its greatest spiritual growth when the notion of an evangelist was to go out preaching the Word and recommending (not ordaining) men who were already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching (Lenski) as pastor- teachers.

Church would then consist of family or groups of families in a given area. You know: like yeast which doesn't get anything done if it is left in a ball collecting fuzz.

Paul defined the fact of 'gathering 'or 'assemblying' wth a form of the word "synagogue." In the TEACHING passages having hatched out as MUSICAL SINGING commands, Paul still spoke of a school of the Bible where we glorify God by speaking "that which is written" to one another. This has the promise of Christ's presence when "two or three" are gathered in His name. Just don't know but doubt that He has much interest in two or three thousand gathered in a latter day TEMPLE patterned after the Monarchy and temple after Israel's elders FIRED God.

We have approved examples of people meeting in buildings so it isn't a sin. The "school of Tyranus"(the tyrant) was not a SCHOOLHOUSE but a community building for general meetings. So, we have Paul abandoning a building dedicated to RELIGION and approving a COMMUNITY building which doesn't need STAFF when the meeting is over and the people go back to work and the evangelist goes back to work.

Maybe the massive building dedicated to being theater of worship for two or three hours a week speaks more of SECTARIAN and flabby uselessness than NOT playing instruments for kids who can steal and listen to CDs all week.

Catholics began the SANCTUARY craze in the pagan belief that buildings were "tools of evangelism." Quite insane since evangelists have GO in their tank or they are not evangelists.

I don't need a gym and the gymnasium along with the modern form of replacing TEACHING with SINGING as in "music" has almost universal connotations of perverted paganism.

Buildings don't carry a stigmata and I appreciate the fact that God didn't have to command me to get in out of the rain and snow. However, unlike many groups, churches of Christ don't build utilitarian meeting halls but as close to THEATERS FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT as they can get with the FOCUS on the stage. Somewhere in the architecture is the Asherah poles as steeples or non functional columns.

Both the mega-church and the turn to MUSICAL sin (with or without a machine) are products of the fase dogma that the ROLE of the church is WORSHIP as in singy-clappy girl stuff. That was the belly punch delivered by the Jubilee and similar cess pools of underemployeds with the Staff Infection.

Selling mega churches could break up the clusters of pyramid "ministeries" quite identical to the levels of authority God promised Israel when they demanded a king. It would force churches to become "families" but not like the outrageous Family of God with 6 thousand members (living, dead, in prison).

The effect, like the Diasporas, would be that people would take a personal responsibility to teach the gospel without the Doctors of the Law Jesus warned against. Doesn't that make more sense than turning the SANCTUARY into "Venues for Rock and Roll" to attract those who are TURNED off by churches? A mega church would probably buy most of the night clubs in most towns.

Yours for the ancient tribal and Mormon grasp of minimal common sense that above about 150 the inbreeding destroys the vitality of the group and ABSOLUTELY cuts off outreach.

Ken Sublett

http://www.justchristians.com

I have read almost all the posts here, and I am seeing more than one issue. I am not a Bible scholar.Many denominational churches are also having the Saddleback and Willowcreek 'programs' come into their churches and many are becoming concerned at the business-like atmosphere surrounding the things they are implementing. Its like corporate raidership. Churches following these programs and those similar are being turned into businesses, with income(tithing), corporate officers, (the pastors and the elders,) and church employees.(apparently no more volunteers) Officers receive housing allowances, car allowances, and in fact now pastors can grant the bestowal of ministry titles to others in the corporation so that they too might receive personal exemptions belonging to ministers.

Many churches, Churches of Christ, too, are bringing in consulting companies to set up annuities among the members, and to teach the members how to manage their money(the goal seems to be,in part so that the members will have enough to keep contributing generously to the church)

Generating income, and alot of it, seems to be of prime importance. Almost all of these churches which have adopted the Willowcreek or Saddleback model seem to have launched large building and enlargement programs to facilitate the expected influx of now unchurched souls.

It is interesting to see the pattern of first bringing in the change of preaching to one of nonjudgementalism,and inclusion of other denominations, and then gradually changing the ministry programs, bringing in the small groups, catagorizing the members' 'minstry gifts', and recording information about the members 'to better serve them',ultimately and primarily to help them better serve the community. Then the worship format begins to change. On further investigation it seems almost all these churches have incorporated using the 501c3 tax exemption. A 501c3 church organization is catagorized as either a 'religious institution' or a 'charity', and as such must exist to provide a service or services to the community. That is their legal purpose. The officers of the corporation are bound by law to implement this. The goal of the 501c3 churches religiously, seems to be to unify people across denominational lines; to serve the community, as opposed to existing members;
and to get big tax exemptions for the church leaders. If I am wrong about this I stand corrected. In order for these churches to keep their 501c3 exemption they CANNOT discriminate against anyone even as far as religious differences go. They cannot afford to offend anyone doctrinally, in the community, and they can't hold beliefs that would exclude anyone from their stated purpose(to serve the community). This seems to mean that if you think a person is going to hell because of not being baptized, you are not allowed to state it as a church if you want to hold onto your tax-exempt status. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Is this wind of change in the church about legal status or a different style of worship and philosophy about the meaning of the church, or all?

On different church of Christ websites, I am seeing a number of 'baby dedications', changing of the elders' titles from 'Elders' to 'Shepherds', and some other things that the church of Christ has traditionally not done. These are changes that have historically been peculiar to other denominations,and it deserves a look by all members to see exactly what is going on. What exactly are the churches moving toward and why?

On the Madison portion of this website there was mention that the elders at Madison apparently maintained secrecy about what they were taught at Saddleback. Is that really true? Were they actually not allowed to talk about it?

Whether or not one agrees with the changes in worship format, instrumental music and the rest of the changes that many are seeing, the fact that churches are being taken over should alert members even of denominations, that anything that comes about by fraud, secrecy, and emotional pressure is fundamentally wrong. As far as worship,I personally do not wish to be emotionally manipulated during worship by 30 minute songs designed to draw an emotional response. I don't like being told that 'hey, you can yell at a football game, so why won't you show the same enthusiasm at church?', by the minister, or pastor.I don't like being pressured to raise my hands in worship. I don't like being told by a human being how I should worship God.

I have grown up in the church of Christ and have had problems with the arrogance of some of the members( myelf included for many years, until I was the one who committed a public sin; then I knew what it felt like to be scorned)This occurred 13 yeas ago and there are still many who will not fellowship with me. We are not talking about an unsusual sin either. It definitely affects your family. People can be very cruel. Finally last year I could take it no longer. I went looking for a church that actually believed in forgiveness and repentance,a bunch that actually did what Jesus told them to do, and so wound up looking outside the church. But then I discovered that this other church was very caught up in the Willowcreek syndrome, and I got out of there fast, after I learned what was going on from this website. I feel very sorry for the Church, and I believe what has happened in many of them is wrong. I also believe that I suffered needlessly for years from depression and loneliness because my church family would not fellowship with me long long after I repented. I thought I deserved it too. After all I grew up in the church.I had to get counselling to see that I did not deserve to continue being punished for my sin, and that I DID deserve good Christian friendships. These I have found outside the church. What is wrong with this picture? I could tell you story after story about things like this. May God forgive us. To be fair I know this harsh attittude is found in may other churches, and in people outside all churches. It just seems that there are many more of them in the church of Christ. .............................................. I think some things DO need to be changed, but its not the bible, its the peoples' hearts. As you judge so shall you also be judged. People in the church as a whole do need to change. Compassion and forgiveness does not mean approval. But when God has wiped our sin away, who are we to keep twisting the knife in people? I think the church has had more than its share of Phsrisees. I was one too. After my experience I readily remember Jesus's remarks to the Pharisees about those who are without sin..casting the first stone.. I think this can be accomplished without instrumental music, and some of the other things discussed here.I would love to see the church come back to its spiritual roots, not only its doctrinal roots.

Dear brother,

I was touched by your letter and wanted to thank you for having the courage to reach beyond your feelings of hurt to express your concern for the spirit of love that Christian's (those who have obeyed the gospel from the heart)in many congregations of the Lord's church have lost sight of. I was treated this way as a new convert being converted from a dubious and immoral life style. Since I was not raised in any religious upbringing the church of Christ is all I have ever known. Not that I need any other because I know the truth and know whom I belong to. For years I was (on probation) so to speak. Many of the brethren were very cruel in reminding me of what I had been cleansed of. But I refused to lose sight of my focus of what Christ had done for me and what he continues to do for me. It is sad to see Satan and his "ministers of light" continue to make inroads into the church He died for with the false, deceptive and heretical teachings and practices that are contrary to the clear teachings of the Bible. This really should not be surprising to God's children since the Lord Jesus and the apostles warned that this would come to pass. I now preach in a congregation where the spirit of love and truth abide in the hearts of the members. My prayer is that you will keep your heart ferverent on loving and not let the devil use your painful past experiences against you.
In His Love,
Daniel

P.I., I want to say how much I agree with your post. I was raised in a mega Church of Christ. I was 3rd generation member of Churches of Christ and have so many good memories of many wonderful people who loved the Lord and his church. I went through a very traumatic divorce after a very abusive marriage. Although my divorce was scriptural according to the Churches of Christ's own stand on divorce, I was still shunned because I was a "divorced woman". I was helping take care of 18-month olds and was no longer allowed to "teach" because it was their policy. I was the faithful one in my marriage, but I was too "soiled" to be around babies. This was very hurtful to me. I stayed for a few more years but this Pharisaical attitude was so prevalent that I just couldn't handle it anymore. I agree Saddleback and Willow Creek is an insidious disease creeping into the churches, but I think we need to reexamine how it happened in the first place. I would never go back to one of those mega churches with their cold pews.

Dear friends and brothers,

Richard Halverson said of the history of the church over the last twenty centuries, "In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then it moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next it moved to Europe where it became a culture. Now it has moved to America where it has become an enterprise."

One can hardly tell the difference today between the money hungry priests over the temple in the gospel of John and the materialism so rampant today. When mammom comes before truth, New Testament Christianity is thrown aside.

We live in a time of secularization, privitization, pluralization, and relativization, where we have thrown God out, made our own religion, decided everyone is right, and denied absolute truth. Such behavior has led to the postmodern mindset of our time. (See my book Adrift, published by Gospel Advocate in 2000).

When the Lord no longer rules, there are no rules. This is where we are....

brotherly,
Phil Sanders

Of the half dozen or so books that I have read this year concerning the current issues facing the church, "Adrift" truly cuts to the heart of the matter. It doesn't focus on the symptoms that we see but on the cause of the disease. I highly recommend this book as it shows how our society has affected our attitudes and our reasoning ability. These are the cracks in the foundation that have allowed the more visible issues to shift.

Brother Sanders, I appreciate this work very much.

P.L. Martinson makes some important points in his article. Is the church today more or less effective than it was back before it started operating as a a business enterprise?

The 501c3 plays a part in all this. However, the problem actually goes much deeper than the 501c3 status of most churches today. The root cause problem is with the corporate status of most churches.

"Because that for his name’s sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles." (3 John 1:7)

Churches today are very much in the habit of taking government benefits, but is it biblical to do so? There is a reason why the early church was in the habit of "taking nothing of the Gentiles." It's because they so-well understood that it would ruin their testimony of Christ.

How could they on one hand claim that "The Lord Jesus Christ is our provider," and yet in the other hand take State benefits? They couldn't and they didn't.

Yet today, most churches are taking State privileges and benefits. For example, most churches take the State's limited liability protection when they incorporate. Who protects them? The State! This doesn't seem to me to be particularly biblical. Even unbelievers quickly see how hypocritical it is for Christians to say, "Trust in Jesus," but then they place their confidence in the State to "protect" their church.

To further undermine the testimony of Christ Jesus, most churches have applied for the IRS 501c3 tax exempt status. This is misguided both theologically and even legally.

It's misguided legally because even the IRS has always stated that "churches are exempt automatically and are automatically tax deductible" without ever having to apply for 501c3 status.

There's some very useful information available on this subject at http://hushmoney.org

Where has the respect for God and the Power of His word gone??? Are their NO limits anymore? Is everything we do explained by God's word OR explained off as God's revival?? God doesn't need a revival! He IS and WAS and WILL ALWAYS BE, with or without our help. God's word is our only guide not our personal FEELINGS on issues. We mock Christ when we alter the structure HE established! Has everyone forgotten Christ established the Church rather than man. Do we take the inspired word of God that lightly?? Unfortunately, it is Satan that has brought on an era in the church of "if it feels good, it must be what God wants". Do you not realize that Satan LOVES to hear you argue that scripture isn't worth discussing or the fact you don't think it's a big deal to alter Christ's structure and plan for the church?!!

Amen to your message to these people. At least have the guts to stand up for what they are doing.

The saddest part about all of this change is that Satan is winning.

I still cannot understand why grown, intelligent adults can't see what is happening. How they are now having no boundaries, no true beliefs, no one path, etc. They have accepted the false premise of Love, Love, Love.

How can those of you who are for Madison and this type of indoctrination not get what is going on? Are you blind or are you scared to see what is so clearly in front of you? That the Church is being taken over by Satan in the name of the Lord should be apparent to anyone who really loves and believes in God. But instead, you condemn those who have the guts to shout out a warning.

For shame on you that have accepted the changes without question. You that feel you have received God's love without much responsibility...You that fail to read ALL of the Bible and only apply portions. You that have made Church a social occassion and not the somber, serious event it is supposed to be.

Unfortunatley, much of this change we should place on our own shoulders. We spent too much time being blameless and perfect Christians and not sharing both our sins and our sufferings with each other. Like the prior poster said, when one sins, stops the sin and ask for forgiveness - the sin is over. In God's eyes and ours! We became overly judgemental and had a "better than you" attitude that allowed this evil into our church. We must now take a stand and stop it. We pretend that our lives are perfect and that we never sin. But we do...daily! Let's admit it and support each other. Let's help each other thru these times and hopefully, it will prevent others from going down the same path. Only one was perfect.

To those of you who have fallen for the false teachings (and yes, the Bible CLEARLY is against Madison's teachings if you are willing to read ALL of it), I beg you to give up your hardened hearts and realize that being a Christian is about more than just loving the Lord and going around proclaiming your Christianity.

To those of you at Madison, ask yourself why Jesus stated the following:

"The path is narrow and few there are that will find it"
"Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven".

I dare any of you to read the writings of the early Christians and how they felt about such changes. These are the same men who actually learned at the feet of Paul, Peter, John and the other Apostles. These are the elders of the Churches that Jesus discusses and did not find fault with - just some of the members. The change to the early Church began the same way as the changes are today. Satan seems to do things the same way as long as they work so easily for him.