I am not a theologian, nor do I play one on Sunday> I was raised in the institutional C of C,was baptised in the twelveth year according to the law, graduated from the school set on a hill, as to our traditions,blameless...as to our message, zealous, as to our doctrine, unwavering. I have however had this nasty little habit since high school...I have been a student of history, especially as it relates to Christendom. In my spleen-letting here I am not going to quote you any scripture,not because I don't know it, but for a reason most of ya'll wouldn't understand. Most everything discussed in this and other such "concerned" web sites are so far out of the bounds of scripture that our scripture cannot be used to solve any of these practical messes. No more would you consult the Holy Writ to find out what kind of fuel to put in your car should you use the Bible to prop up an argument in this grand debate ya'll have going here. These issues are simply outside the bounds of the Bible (except for loving one another!!). Those of you worrying about the Hegelian Dialectic are about 1680 years too late...it's allready been done. In the third century Paganism and Christianity combined and the outcome was something that was of neither. We are 1700 years down a blood line that is so far off the first century expression of ecclesia that to use the Bible to support a point is beyond laughable. I read arguments here about the KJV or NIV or whatever and wonder how a group of seemingly coherent people could defend a man's work who, as we speak, is most likely burning in Hell, if you looked at King James life he was quite a ringer. His Bible was "inspired" entirely for political purposes and is the source of most of our doctrinal disputes today. Ya'll argue about an assembly whose practices 1000% come out of Southern Europes' Heathenism. there is not one thing that we do today in our assemblies that can be supported in the Bible, challenge me if you will, it's simply not in there. So whether we stand, clap, sit, or wave hands it is a totally moot point. A little aside here... there has yet to be any change in any assembly in a Church of Christ that I have attended, I have visited dozens from Nashville to Abilene and they are all EXACTLY the same. We all walk in, sit down, look forward, stand when we're told to, sit when were told to, listen when we're told to, and go home at the appointed hour. We by and large don't even know the person sitting next to us and leave with the same baggage we came with. Whether we sing two songs out of a book and have a prayer, or ten songs off the wall and have a prayer it is of no difference. You are still spectators watching actors. Some is intensely boring, some is what I call "worship lite", a third less boring than the original service. Whether we stare at a preacher, pastor or priest, we still sit and stare, shades of total paganism. We have chosen to innovate instead of change. I guess we figure if we get better at what we are allready doing and repackage it so as to appeal to 27 year olds with 2.4 kids that we are accomplishing something. We have neither the money nor the talent to attract that crowd. Folks, what I'm talking about has got nothing to do with my interpretation of anything, this stuff is pure pagan secular historically documentable events.That we come together to "worship" God historically began in the late third century. Our version was perfected by John Calvin around 1540 and hasn't changed one word since. The Methodist didn't change it, the Lutherans didn't change it and we sure didn't even ask about it when we began our "restoration" in the early 1800's. Even the Pentecostals didn't change it (go visit them, their service is exactly like ours).It is a ritual that is as old as superstition(which is still today our major religion). Preaching came directly from Heathen Greek Oratorical practices in the 400's. Our version of the Lord's Supper (that being a memorial to Christ on the Cross) began in the early part of the fifth century. Imagine, for longer than the U.S. has been a country, the first believers never could figure out that the LS was supposed to be carried out in a manner that would make most funerals I've been to seem jovial. Time won't allow to discuss buildings, budgets, elders(oh my goodness have we erred here), deacons, giving, singing, or our method of Bible study (our Bible study is the most unscriptural thing we do). God has sent a strong delusion so that those who think they see are really blind to the fact that they are blind. Our version of Christianity (be it fundamentalism, pentecostalism, conservatism, Calvinism, or Armenianism,) are all what I call religous pornography. It is a destructive, seductive, deceitful, substitute for the real thing. We get off on everything but what the Lord wants... to know us intimently. It's so simple if you will just let Him be Lord. Arguing about services,NWO,eschatology,authority,etc. just robs us all (like Porn) of the reality of knowing and being known by Him.
I've been to your services at NRH, there is one thing I can honestly say about it (as all our assemblies do),your assembly proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is life after death...think about it.
Realeyesrealizereallies.
Jay, what you say is on target. However, when a copperhead moves in my direction down on the farm in Hohenwald I attack the end most threatening at the moment. I don't worry too much about what moved its head too close.
And you are correct also that, in my terms, the left wing is beating against the right wing while there is no body being carried by all of those Huper-Apostles (Paul's message).
As "Christian colleges" have never survived beyond their 100th birthday, "restoration" has never lasted beyond the next generation after the restorers. But (and I can still taste, hear and feel hints of it long ago and far away) there was a bright and fleeting time in Camelot when Thomas Campbell called "church" a school of Christ just as Paul would call it "synagogue" or school of the Bbible. "Worship" was giving heed to the Word or "giving attendance to the public reading of the Word." Then, people with wildly-different opinions (Romans 14) could do "ekklesia" with mutual teaching of "that which has been written." (Romans 15).
The religious world flocked to that non-clerg gathering like starving prisoners.
Sadly throughout the country, the bright and fleeting time in Camelot has turned into the dulled and fleecing time in RotAlot.
However, don't blame those who are arousing from deep, sermonizing-tokenizing-versifying induced sleep and finding that "they don't have their clothes with them."
Jesus died and GOSPEL included taking the scapel to exorcise the "doctors of the law" who were peddlers of "taking away the key to knowledge." Surely we ought to find someone who would do that without charge, sell mega-buildings and let the prisoners go free to once again, DO church in community learning and serving centers and put the GO back into the word GOspel preacher.
That is why the Bible and early church history, Luther, Erasmus, Calvin etal repudiated the role of performance preaching which, as you say, came out of the Greek rhetorical world where "theater was worship." Paul qualified his own ministry by claiming that he was not a "trained speaker."
That is why the direct command is to TEACH or PREACH to one another, using "that which is written" (Rom 15), the Spirit (Eph 5; John 6:63) or the Word of Christ (Col. 3). History seems to agree with Paul that the singing (secular) and melody (grinding to bits) should be left in the heart. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia agrees in theory and "permitted" but never authorized "music." That included human compositions and even the simple harmony which didn't fully develop until the latter day restorationists discovered its "awakening" power which musicologists identify as thinly-masked voodoo.
Jay, you undoubtedly grasp that you cannot DO mega-church with many ministers (missionary in residence? My God, why hast thou forsaken us?) without, as they used to say of abusive husbands, "keeping 'em pregnant in the summer and barefooted in the winter" intellectually through "Bible Study."
Just don't discourage the Rip Van Winkles from arousing themselves or the "watchtower slaves" from hearing the trumpet as a warning sign and not music.
kenny. YOU are the religious pornographer. You concious rants and raves are PORN. You do not make any sense when you post, you incessently make comparissons to sex and lust and sex and women and sex when refering to worship. I think you need to check into a 12 step program for sex offenders.
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From the Moderator
The only portion of the above post that was edited was the name of the poster.
This message has been edited by KevinHamm from IP address 65.134.164.7 on Jan 23, 2003 10:59 PM
I wonder..how long will we worry about being a good CofC, instead of being the church as Christ intended?? Why in the world should RHCC care if the rest of the CofC "brotherhood" - and oh man, is that a misnomer - hates us? THEY are not our model - Christ is.
It is this that the Joe McKnight's, Kenneth Sublett's, etc will never understand - you cannot stand in judgement of me or the congregation I attend. It's just not in your power, nor has God called you to do so. Worship God, serve him by loving everyone and leading them to him, not by backbiting people who you say do things "wrong".
"What does it matter if everybody else hates RHCC"?
Good question. Firstly, I wouldn't say "hates". Bad word. Entirely too strong a choice. It seems to me that anybody who "dislikes" RHCC for any reason does so because they have doctrinal disagreements with us, and therefore cannot associate with us because they make it a priority to preserve what, to them, is the purity of doctrine. Its not that they hate us, but I think some of them go too far in that they judge too harshly. Either way, can we blame them for making doctrinal purity a priority? I think that anybody who sacrifices doctrines of purity for doctrines of demons in the name of "unity" does so without regard for the truth. Of course, unity is a major concern.
The church is ONE body, not MANY CONGREGATIONS. This rule of "each congregation is autonomous" is a load of junk. Consider the word "autonomous" - "auto" (self) and "nomos" (law) from the greek. Do we honestly think that each individual congregation is a law unto itself???
Certainly not! Each congregation must answer to the others. Each congregation MUST depend on the others. This is the body of CHRIST we're talking about! The ONE body of Christ.
What other congregations think about us matters, I hate to say it. I, for one, would NEVER desire to drive a wedge between us and the more conservative brethren on account of some new stupid innovation we've decided to impliment. UNITY and DOCTRINAL PURITY matter far more than these.
As for the email that sparked off this thread, I cannot agree that every single element of our worship services has come about as a result of passing time -as a by-product of history's effect on the church.
When the church started, IN THE BOOK OF ACTS, singing, sermons, worship etc. etc. etc. were ALL in effect. Consider the following:
1) Timothy and Titus were both evangelist-preachers. That means somebody was PREACHING and thus SERMONS were invented.
2) "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" denotes singing, right? Singing was in place back then for sure.
The list goes on... To say that these things began later as a result of pagan practices in times such as the late 400's is a false doctrine. HISTORY SHOULD NEVER TAKE PRIORITY OVER BIBLICAL FACT. If the bible says it, its true. If History disagrees, history is wrong. (Actually, history will always back up bible because both are true).
My friend who believes all these things, please read the book of Acts at least.
But Ryan, you can't actually think that the church as it exists today is one body? I mean, it should be, but it's not...overall, the church in the US is a divided (denominationally) mess. That's NOT Christ's fault - it's ours.
As you say, the people who perpetuate this are blood brothers of those who started this site...
Jesus validated is role as SON by declaring that HE spoke only that which HE heard from the Father. Paul preached the same GOSPEL of freedom from arts and crafts of the rhetorical (Pharisees) and composing world (Scribes). Preaching is often the word "dialog" and he delivers the Word as a herald: a Paul Revere does not cut N paste his message. Paul said to "preach to one another" with the Biblical text and my search engine just won't recognize the word Preacher in the text. He is deacon becoming evangelist with Philip and Stephen.
"In many cases heralds are very garrulous and inclined to exaggerate. They are thus in danger of giving false news. It is demanded then that they deliver their message as it is given to them. The essential point about the report which they give is that it does not originate with them ...The herald does not express his own views. He is the spokesman for his master... Being only the mouth of his master, he must not falsify the message entrusted to him by additions of his own." (Robinson, Homiletics, p. 804).
"With the victory of Christianity (325 AD) and the development of the service came a soaring of the sermon. Preaching became more frequent, being employed even during the week and during fast seasons in some places daily. As the Church during that period assimilated more and more Greco-Roman culture, the sermon developed para passu. The most noted Christian preachers had not seldom been educated in the rhetorical schools of the heathen, and employed in their sermons the rule of rhetoric and the artistic effects taught there, and polish became almost an end, often giving more brilliancy than warmth. The hearers came to look for esthetic satisfaction rather than for edification, leaving after the sermon and before the Eucharist." (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Preaching, p. 150, Period 300-450 A. D.).
"In the East the sermon was often imaginative, poetic, even bombastic and wordy; in the West the rhetoric was more sober, and the sermon practical, simple, and clear." (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Preaching, p. 150).
"The public prayers had now lost much of that solemn and majestic simplicity, that characterized them in the primitive times, and which were, at present, degenerating into a vain and swelling bombast." (Mosheim, Eccl. Hist., Vol. I., p. 303).
"The priests of the pagan temples had been paid from the purse of the Empire, but now Caesar was a Christian and the priests of Mars and Venus hastened to their baptisms.
For the first time in the history of the church, salaries were paid to Christians workers. Tradition has it that Constantine's mother was the first to give the money for the erection of a church building... All this (meetings in homes) was over now. The rags of persecution gave way to softer garments, and the church began to enjoy the feel of silk upon its flesh. Thus the Pergamos stage of church history came into being, the church was married to the world." (Barnhouse, D.G., Revelation, Zondervan, p. 52).
And the result:
"There sits the congregation, mute as in death. Here the godless choir and noisy fiddler fill the air with soulless strains, while the preacher, precious man, speaks his pretty piece of poetry as musically as possible by way of a solo, or as a sort of interlude." (Kurfees, Instrumental Music, p. 233).
"At a time when there is a rising protest against monologues and therefore sometimes monotonous "one man ministries' in the churches, and when it is complained increasingly that the preacher is one of the few remaining public figures whose formal remarks allow no public interrogation or discussion (even Presidents are subjected not to the discipline of public interview), it is perhaps in order for the churches to look here in Corinthians to their earliest structures. Perhaps the worship services should include or append a period of thoughtful discussion following the sermon--or sermons (v. 29)--in place of the often dull and unprofitable responsive readings before it and of some of the singing which seems to be often, at the conscious or mental level at least, low-level glossolalia with instrumental accompaniment." (Bruner, Frederick Dale, A Theology of the Holy Spirit, Eerdmans p. 300).
Reading 101aa: Paul's direct command was to glorify God by "speaking with one mouth that which is written" (Rom 15 which solves the divisiveness of Romans 14 created by musical Orphics and Dionysiacs), the Spirit (Eph 5; John 6:63) or "the Word of Christ" (Col. 3:16). External prefabricated "singing" in the Greek word was a secular activity ("teams" were always "the harem of the gods") and "melody" is not a musical term but speaks of the twanging bow sending the singing arrow into your literal heart and is related to the word SOP. External harmony (which is not melody at all) literally abrades the mind and creates spiritual anxiety before the feel-good drug, endorphin, (morphine within), kicks in and the "team" lies to you that it is really the 'gods' inside. Wine is fine and likker is quicker but music is the cheapest, most powerful legal drug-inducer, mind-alterer known to mankind.
"Ancient Greek was a pitched language, so melody had to be an outgrowth of the natural inflections of the spoken language." Britannica. Remember 101a: "Speak" or "preach" to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs which in the Septuagint (LXX) are classes of Psalms along with Mashals. And remember: "Teach and Admonish" one another.
Surrogate preaching and performance singing violates the letter and principle of Jesus and the direct commands of Paul. Most destructive it deprives the assembly of the central meaning of church as "synagogue" where "the Day Star" rises in our hearts as we give heed (that primary worship word) to the Word of God "as it HAS BEEN taught." (See 2 Pe 1:19)
Sure, I know that you cannot "man" a mega-temple without "staff infection" but neither could Nimrod who needed his own musical worship team to control the herd of people and dull their minds so that they didn't catch on.
I find it amazing that there are people actually trying to argue with Ryan, a good friend of mine. I have attended Richland Hills since the age of 18 months and am now 20 years old. I am not going to try and act closed minded, because that is not where I am coming from. I have visited other churches while at college and with other friends, and I am not just talking about churches of Christ. While visiting these other churches I came to the realization that I love Richland Hills. I never want to be a member of any other church due to the fact that I firmly stand up for my church. I believe in everything it stands for and everything it is. I will always stand behind Rick and the Elders of the church along with the other ministers that have helped me form my beliefs. Any religion that I have learned in my life has come from Richland Hills and I love what I have in my life. I know that the faith I have in God and the church is not only from my parents but the older, much wiser, people of RHCC. I respect these people and the church.
Furthermnore, I believe that the people who have been bashing the church and its members are the HYPOCRITES they say we are. How can one stand there and bash people who are simply trying to worship the same God you are. I believe that we are here on this earth to try and "preach the good news to all creation". Why are you people wasting your time on those that already profess the name of the same GOD and worship him in their own manner. I thought we were here to preach to those that don't believe in our Holy Father, not to those that love him just as equally. I am very confused as to why this website is up and running. I am also confused as to why there are people bashing me and my family. I take this offensively and don't appreciate it. I thought we were to love even our enemies, not hate them. Please would someone enlighten me on why this is happening. Why are you feeling the need to speak so loudly your OPINION of the church and try to break it away. I will continue to pray for you and your own church families, because I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for the parents that attempted to raise you with respect for others but obviously failed. If you don't wish to read any of this please understand this: you will always be in my prayers so that I may one day see each of you dancing on those golden streets in the sky.
Thanks for your post. I understand where you are coming from, but just because I, and others who either attend at RHCOC or elsewhere, disagree with the elders and Rick regarding deaconesses or other issues does not mean that we are bashing Richland Hills or that we are hypocrites. Like you, I believe that my loyalty is first and foremost to Jesus Christ and his Word. I believe wholeheartedly that when I hear a sermon preached by Rick or anyone else from the pulpit, it is my responsibility to go home and read the scriptures for myself to find out if what the preacher said is according to the Word (Acts 17:11). I heard Rick's sermon that Wednesday night, have spoken with two elders about this issue, and have been in discussion with others apart and on this message board and when comparing their conclusions to scripture, I find that scripture is different from the decision that was made at Richland Hills. I have prayed and studied long and hard over this and I still come up with the same conclusion.
One thing that I disagree with you strongly on is that, yes, we are all trying our best to serve the same God, but there is nothing wrong with examining what you hear another Christian say and comparing it to scripture. John himself in 1 John 4:1 says to do that because of the false prophets in the world. The things Paul mentions the Word accomplishes in 2 Timothy 3:16 (instruction, teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness) is to be done not only to non-Christians, but so that "the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" 2 Timothy 3:17. I have no problem having anyone comparing what I say to the Word when I say something in a Bible study, when I preached years ago, or in any other setting when scripture is discussed because it is everyone's responsibility to not take anything for granted. I apologize, but I don't take Rick's, the elders, or anyone else's word for anything when it comes to my soul. I want to compare what they say in scripture...that is simply what I have done regarding the deaconness issue. I am sorry if you think people like me are hypocrites for disagreeing with the elders decision as you mention in your earlier post, but I don't see it in scripture the way they do.
Keep in mind, there are some churches in the world today that claim to be Christian that are upholding homosexuality, claiming God's Word is not relevant for today, and even questioning the Resurrection. Just because they claim to be a Christian Church, does that mean that they are serving the same God we are...absolutely not. These churches have departed from God's truth and in no way should be fellowshipped by faithful Christians (2 John 9).
Thanks for praying for people like me, it is a cold hard world out there and I always appreciate others prayers.
I understand where you are coming from, however, I still do not understand as to why there were postcards sent to my family about this website. It is your own business whether or not you agree with a few other fellow Christians. Another thing, if you simply disagree with what is going on at a church, then why do you insist on still attending this church? If I don't agree with how someone is worshiping or what their beliefs are then I go away from them and find another place to worship. I have done this before. For Example: While at school in Abilene I attended a Thursday night worship service that included instruments into their singing. I am not able to worship God in this manner and it bothers me to have them around. Therefore, I have yet to attend this service ever again. Please let me know why you have made these decisions so that I am able to further understand where this website is coming from.
O'Dear Brother I'm not judging you or your congregation, that job is Christ's (Rev 15). I am just trying to sound a warning. It's up to you what you do with it. I just keep getting louder and more bullish for two reasons: 1. We are still here so there is time to warn people, 2. People are still asleep and have not woke up yet. One way I can tell that they have not woke up yet is because they still have hirelings beating them and they come back for more, go figure.
Let me ask you what would you do if you saw what is coming and know that 99.9% of your brethern are not ready, and will not over come the evils that beset them. Would you just say "I'm OK, forget you" or "I got mine, fooy on you"? Brother I grew up with these people I know that they love God or they would not take the beatings of the hirelings. I lov'em, and I do not want to see what is going to happen to them if they don't wake up. The bible and simple math tells us this world is 6000 years old and it is time for the Sabbath Kingdom to start, but the Great tribulation comes first, and it is bad. Read Matt. 24 & 25, this is just the short version. Study Revelations and all the Prophet of the old testament, they all have something to say about the End Time events. The church of Christ is not ready for it because the Hirelings will not teach the truth. They are afraid they will lose their gravy train, and will have to start working for a living. We have paid Hirelings to meet our responsibilities so we can sleep. We will wake up someday, I Pray that it will not be in the middle of the persecution that is coming, but most of all not after you have gotten this little bio-chip in your hand or forehead, cause there is no hope for you then (Rev. 15:2 it is his mark).
But Sir you want me to shut up and go away. Why? Are you a Hireling? or are you one of Satan's agents that is sent to guard the sleeping sheep to make sure no one wakes them? Surely you ain't so selfish that you don't want safety for your brothers & sisters? What is it? Why?
No, I am not judging, I AM WARNING, WAKE UP!
This message has been edited by KevinHamm from IP address 67.203.217.176 on Mar 17, 2002 10:46 AM
You are part of the 1% who knows the absoulte truth, and 99% of the rest of us are idiots?? This is why no one listens to your arguments or opinions...arrogance doesn't play well in the church.
Joe, I am wide-awake. I have read your repeated warnings. You certainly have a lot of zeal in warning your brothers in the Lord about what you perceived to be wrong with them. Your posts just litter this web site from the very beginning. Although I don't agree with you on most issues, I still read your posts. I earnestly would like to see what common ground do we have and what underlying theology that separates us.
You mentioned the word: "Hirlings" several times. What does this word means, and to whom are you referring to in the church today? Do you mean: "located preachers?" Ken does not like this word. He says he can't find it in his search engine. I don't know of other word to use. Do you have a different word for it? Are you saying that all churches of Christ should fire or get rid of their "salaried preachers?" Why? Are they without exception, all bad? Are you saying salaried preachers are unscriptural? Would you please elucidate? Thanks.
Chai this might get me in the viper's den but here goes
March 20 2002, 7:09 AM
Hirelings
Thank you Brother Voraritskul, thank you for giving me a chance to explain.
John 10:11-15 I am the good Shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the Sheep.
Chapter 10 is a very interesting chapter.Jesus is trying to explain the difference between how He came into the world and Satan came into this world (The seed of Adam and a New Creature), but I will try to stay with the Hireling issue for now. In verse 11 He changes gears a little. He is still taking about Himself being a good shepherd, but in verse 12 & 13, He starts to talk about the human Hirelings the leaders of the congregations, the flock. The wolf is an agent of Satan; an anti-Christ that teaches another gospel, or a task master that enslaves them, which ever they lead the sheep to a point that devils come in and devour them: while they run. Then in verse 14 & 15 Jesus finished with how He is the Good Shepherd and that He is going to die on the cross for us. This prophecy also came true at His crucifixion when all the Apostles left Him, but we need to stay with the Hirelings in the Church today.
A hireling is someone that receives compensation for watching someone else property. The Apostles were hirelings, in that Jesus told them to feed my sheep (John 21:15-17), but they were good Hirelings because they laid their life down for the sheep. Not just to the death, but while they were alive: They were not in it for the money, the prestige, or any of the world’s rewards (Mark 6:7-12) Theirs sights were on the Heavenly rewards. Back to the hirelings of John 10 the bad Hirelings of today. Compensation is not limited to receiving a check: there is social prestige. Some seek rewards of the prestige of being the elder of a large congregation, the political rewards of a large voting block, large amounts of people looking up to them. You see, money is not the only reward that Hirelings receive or look for. The Mega-church movement afoot today fulfills the compensational needs of the Hirelings. Large numbers that equals large coffers, that equal larger programs, that equal larger exposure, that equals a higher social status: monetary or political. The sheep pay the cost of these rewards, through the product of the teachings of the Hirelings. They will tell you one thing and do another. IE: We believe what the Bible says is true and we stand on the Word. LIE, that is a bald face LIE. I call it a lie because they will defend their stand no matter what the scriptures say. You can hold a bible in front of them all day and it will have no effect. The stronger the scriptures support your stand on the truth the less they will talk to you, the more you will hear shut up and leave.
Now, you asked if I think we should fire the paid preachers. Let me say this, about that: dddaaaahhhh! When you read John 10 you know that they are leading you to the wolves and will run and you are eaten. The scriptures paint even a worse picture than just leading, then running; they will actually turn you in, to be killed. Look at these verses: Matthew 10:16-42 Matthew 24:4-13 Mark 13:1-13 John 16:1-3 Acts 4:1-3 and 13-21. Killing the Children of God by the religious leader is a very old practice of the Hirelings. So when our Hirelings start turning us over to the authorities to be killed, thinking they are doing Gods work, do not be surprised. Jesus told His Apostles and us: the last generation, this will happen.
I have no use for the theological product, of the church of Christ’s cemeteries of today. There are taught the lies of tradition and then go out and beat the sheep with rods. Their two favorite rods are shame and tithe. Then turn right around and feed you with God is love, He loves you, feel good and sleep. They hide the fact of the scriptures, that God’s love chastens you to Jesus so you can be saved, to fear God, that it is His way or the Broadway that leads to HELL. God does not take votes; IT IS HIS WAY OR HELL, PERIOD. The Hirelings today beat you with rods of shame so you will not learn of the freedoms and liberties that you have as the Bride of Christ. They know that you will leave their barnyard and they will no longer have a means of support, and they will have to get a job: That’s right, work for a living. Brother and Sisters, Jesus came to make us free. Not just free from the seed of Adam, but free from the Hirelings and the chains of their bondage. BE FREE, fire’m. Better yet leave them and go back to the example of the first century church and meet in homes, do not get big, you will only invite more Hirelings to come and KILL YOU. Hirelings are evil, HIRELINGS are evil, HIRELINGS ARE evil, HIRELINGS ARE EVIL!
Thank you Lord Jesus for buying me. Thank you Holy Spirit for teaching me the truth and delivering me from the bondage of the Hirelings.
You see brother, I was brought up In the chains of bondage of the church of Christ hirelings and I am now FREE and I will not go back to their bondage. I pray that you to will ask the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth that will set you free also. God set me into trails that got me to the point that I prayed that all the teaching I had recieved was so tanted that I could not tell what the true truth was, that I was going to throw it all out so the Holy Spirit would have new ground to work with. Oh the things that He planted and are growing now.
After being mugged three times by the "you are giving this fortune to God" scam I am still not as discouraged as Joe. There are good churches doing good works. However, many "urbans versus the rural" big city churches are afflicted with the legalistic urge where "singing praise songs" was an ancient superstition that the clergy musicians could actually keep the gods from failing and the priestly "god manipulators" kept the gods from doing you mortal harm if you didn't know the priestly arts. The Monarchy was not a "pattern" for Christian worship but the pattern of people whom God had turned back to "worship like the nations" because they rejected Him as Teacher through the Word and vocational teachers.
Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. Ezekiel 34:10 (Read the whole chapter)
Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? Ezekiel 34:18
And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. Ezekiel 34:19
And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. Ezekiel 34:23
Therefore, God, through Isaiah, promised that He would, again, become The Sole Teacher and Shepherd of mankind:
Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey. And the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. Isaiah 59:15
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. Isaiah 59:16
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. Isaiah 59:16
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. Isaiah 59:20
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever. Isaiah 59:21
The church as "synagogue" and not pagan worship center (the fatal latter day theology) allows Christ to be the Only Teacher and Mediator (praise teams claim that right) by SPEAKING or PREACHING to ONE ANOTHER with the Biblical text without private interpretation which is "further expounding" or filling in for God's lapse.
The "preaching" role is the evangelist's role. Therefore, a church as "synagogue" sends out teachers to fulfill the Great Commission. For instance, when a Timothy or Paul remained for ATTACHED DUTY the result was that the whole province was taught.
This is quite different from the Purpose Driven Cult movement of people with degrees in communications, theater, drama, musical performance (and therefore a minor in hand flinging) or philosophy usurping the one another role and daring the 'laity' or 'audience' to "question God's anointeds." A cult sign is a membership covenant pledging faithfulness to the clergy and the collection plate in addition to the Word of God. Yes, they do ordain one another as apostles or prophets. I know the name of an apostle and a 13th apostle and if you are studying Blackaby/King you undoubtedly have some new "christs" in your church.
One suspects that the Restoration Movement still has wings but the new "pattern" is derived from the Cane Ridge faction where "revival" was quite identical to devil worship in Iraq and witchcraft in the Re-Imaging or "navigating the winds of change" cults. Many real evangelist have abandoned ship but they may still be available if you redeem yourself by scraping off the unlawful hijackers.
Looks 18th, 1300
Looks 19th, 1013
Total Cost: #0.00
Many being exorcised of the tithing demon.
Thank You, Joe, for Your Straight Answer from the Heart.
March 20 2002, 8:19 PM
Joe, I sense the sincerity and humility in your response, and I do appreciate your direct answer, brother. I do believe you love the Lord. We at RHCC loves him no less. Our convictions may fall on the oppposite side on several issues, and we are not hesitant to defend what we believe. Unless the Lord opens our eyes, and convince us that we need to change, no one will change, at least not immediately. Our Lord is still alive and active in each of us individually and collectively. I firmly believe He is leading and guiding His church. He has not left us as orphans. These controversies make us more aware of our differences in the brotherhood, and that we need to learn to be more gracious to each other in addressing our disputable matters. I will respond to you in substance in a day or two. Thanks.
Brother Chai:
It is but it is not factor, is something that confuses me sometimes, but I know the confusion is on my side not the Word or God side. But we read about mysteries in the bible, mysteries that God shows some but not all.
This is an exsample of; It is, but it is not:
Our Lord is still alive and active in each of us individually and collectively. I firmly believe He is leading and guiding His church. He has not left us as orphans. This was your statement and I have a slight bit of confusion in this area.
Here is the mystery that I would like to talk about. How much is it our responsibility and how much is it The Holy Spirit's?
The love of the truth:II Thessalonians 2:10-12 which leads to Isaiah 66:4 and II Peter 3:15-16 Proverbs 1:24-33 (actually the own chapter) Psalms 2:4 I Timothy 4:1-6 Ephesian 5:6 I could go on and on but you should get the idea by now.
Galatians: our Salvation our righteousness our faith our worth, It's all about Jesus (Thank you LORD) and not me. Grace not Law. submission not works. Yet we are responsible. I can see why it is coC doctrine that we need to work harder, we are worthless worms, work harder, your not making the mark, work harder work work work and the sheep are so gullible. It is a easy sell and easy to understand and hang onto. But easy to hang on to flies in the face of Hebrew 11:1.
Do you think that we should quite blaspheming the Holy Spirit so He can explain it to us? I do.
Question: “How much is our responsibility, and how much is the Holy Spirit’s?
Answer: The way of the world and the Harlot: 100% you, 0% Spirit of Jesus. The way of the Spirit: 0% you, 100% Spirit. Any thing in between defiles and confuses.
Two greatest mysteries concerning the Spirit of Jesus and Jesus himself are revealed in Ephesians 3:1-13 and Colossians 1:24-29. The two are one and the same but from two different perspectives. Romans 8: 9-11 explains the Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and Christ himself, are all the same: the Holy Spirit in all believers.
He speaks about this mystery before his went to the cross in John 12:20-26. His death, burial, and resurrection must take place before this mystery can be fulfilled (John 16:7). Christ is now the life of all believers Galatians 2: 20; Colossians 3: 3, 4; Romans 5: 10.
All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ (vs. 3 of Colossians 2: 1-8). In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given [that] fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority (Colossians 3: 9, 10).
The resurrected life of Christ is a supernatural life. All believers in Christ will live a supernatural life and full of power from the Spirit if they will let him to live his live through them (1Thessalonians 1:5, 2Timothy 1:7). How?
Be still. Rest in him (Matthew 11: 25-30). Enter into that Sabbath rest. Cease from our own activities (Hebrews 4: 1-13, vs. 9). Listen to the voice of the Spirit of Jesus in you (John 10: 4-6, 14-16). He is not dead. You are, if you can’t hear him or his Spirit trying to communicate with you in more ways than one.
Delete files: Church of Christ theology, Bible 101aaa, Philosophy 101aaa, Reading 101aaa. Keep files: COC Restoration History, KJV and all translations and versions for references. Create one new file: Journal of Jesus’ Activities Through Me.
All these clear up the confusion in me. I hope this would be of some use for you and others in the Lord.
Chai...you are obviously Spirit filled or you could not have shared your heart this way. You have reached the essence of a believer's walk. You understand "He" the Spirit not "It" the Spirit. GOD has revealed to you your completeness in Christ(Col 2:10). The active force in a believer's life is "Spirit fullness"...like the popular hymn of years gone by "All of You"...the fullness of relationship with GOD is "none of me"...what did Jesus command the disciples to do? Acts the first chapter in its entirety speaks to the power, proximity and purpose of Spirit(verse 8). Jesus walked, talked and appeared to them over a 40 day period and then ascended to Heaven. Over the next 10 days they spent time together praying(verse 14). They must have spent time in Word also recalling Psalms (verse 20) and acting on the contained prophecy...replacing Judas. Look at the obedience in waiting and resting. And what did Jesus tell them they would be doing after Holy Spirit came? They would be witnesses...even to the remotest part of the earth.
Chai, for the Spirit filled believer there is testimony as to what God has allowed one to witness. I have been priviledged to see God work regularly. He gives me the opportunity of showing up and allowing myself to be used. Notice my main function..."SHOW UP"...How am I used? Mainly to point resources to needs. Pray for Him to bring you opportunities to serve...and the wisdom to understand what an opportunity is. They come in many forms. Physical, financial, emotional and spiritual. Some times they are the minute things that mean so much to others...like a cool drink on a hot day.
Chai, your counsel is true...be still....rest in HIM...wait for His voice...it is clear without question. Did you happen to hear a lesson at RHCC on 9/5/01 about the Brook at Besor(1 SAM 30:6)? The speaker told of stregthening yourself all day long by receiving "of God" at different stressful or empty times during the day. He focused on an acrostic of "LOVE" that stands for refreshing oneself through the renewal of Spirit.
Receive from GOD: Love, Oversight, Victory and Energy.
Taking a moment several times daily to allow Him to refresh you and recharge you.
A Sign of a Fullness of Time: Literal Seeds of Israel in the Kingdom!
April 4 2002, 8:55 AM
Welcome to this threshing floor, brother, and thank you so much for your very kind remarks and your input on the web site. To God be all the glory and honor for doing his work through all of us as we make ourselves available to him. From reading your posts, I can see the Lord is alive and well and active in your life also. Obviously he has shown you where he is at work and leads you to join him here too. Because of you being a literal seed of Israel, your input, which is the expression of your mind, your heart, and your spirit, gives me a special joy and excitement as God’s people. I see an important sign that the fullness of time for the Gentile is upon us. May I share with you what I am discerning?
It is God’s plan that salvation and eternal life be offered freely to the children of Israel first. When Israel rejected the good news, the gospel was then offered to the Gentiles. (Matthew 10: 5ff, 15: 21-28, 23: 37-39, John 1: 10-18, Acts 1: 8, 13: 44-52, 14: 1-4, 17: 1-4, 17: 10-15, 17: 16f, 18: 5-8, 19: 8-12.)
At the end of Jesus’ earthly physical ministry, i.e., to proclaim the good news to the house of Israel, some Greeks [Gentiles] wanted to see him publicly. They were ready to receive him and his message. But the Jews, and the Pharisees said to one another, “See how the whole world has gone after him.” Jesus knew then that his assignment was at the very end (John 12: 12-36). The House of Israel rejected him. It has been nearly 2000 years now. God has scattered them throughout the whole earth, as a nation without a place to call home, but by his grace and mighty power, Israel has not become extinct!
I may not understand or agree with everything that is taking place in the Middle East right now. It is beyond my comprehension, and it could be a struggle that leads to the Second Coming of Christ. But this much I know: Does anyone want know if God exists? Look at the history of Israel! Does any one want to know if the struggle between good and evil is for real? Look in the eyes of any Jews! Does any one have any doubt about God power to preserve and keep his promise? Look at Israel as a nation today!
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you [Gentile believers] may not be conceited. Israel has experienced a hardening in part [Since A. D. 70 till 1948, punished by God, and scattered for almost 2000 years. The beast wanted to exterminate them completely in WW II, yet Israel is still preserved and is now given back the land to live as a nation. Only God can do such a thing!], until the full number of the Gentiles has come in [when that is accomplished, Israel will experience another change of heart and will receive the Lord this time]. And so all Israel will be saved… As far as the gospel is concerning, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you [Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they [Israel] too have now [since Paul's time] become disobedient in order that they too may now [in this millennium] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all" (Romans 11: 25-32).
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?
Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen (Romans 11:33-36).
Literal Seed, my dear brother in the Lord, whoever you are, the more literal seeds come to accept Christ the more I see that the time of the Gentiles is nearly accomplished and now Israel will be entering into the kingdom of Jesus our Lord in a large number. God has not preserved Abraham’s literal seeds for all this time for nothing! Like Paul says: “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Amen. Let it rip, Lord.
Chai Voraritskul. 4/4/2002.
PS: About the lesson at RHCC on 9/5/01 about the Brook at Besor (1 Sam 30:6), no I don't remember hearing it, but I will get hold of one and listen to it sometime. Thanks for mentioning it.
Thank you for the kind words. It's hard not to relate what is happening in the world to what is prophesied in the Word. I can't tell you when it's coming, but it sure looks close. As we look at the 3 congregations being discussed on this site, it is evident to me that God has allowed this to happen for the purpose of refocusing the minds and spirits of those who will listen. Regardless of which side we line up on regarding worship or church administration and structure, God will work through those who will go to His Word for guidance. Spirit will counsel and comfort. Hearts will be directed to the true task at hand for the saint...reach the lost with love and encourage the saints to grow in Him to the point of "good fruit bearing"...that is the doctrine of Christ. Be about the work.
The question is chosen (literal or adopted) or frozen...who does He say you are?
All that Chai and IS say is true as long as you meet the conditions. First you must give yourself to the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, and give Him permission to work in you. Second Confess and repent of sins as they occur. Third Forgive others. Fourth be a lover of the truth. Fifth Keeper of the commandments, if you love Him, Keep the nine commandments. Sixth Take care of your neighbor. Seventh Do not blasphemy the Holy Spirit. If you blasphemy the Holy Spirit it is all for naught, who is going to keep you if you do?
Joe, I will not be surprised if the Lord shows us that the majority of our brothers and sisters in the Churches of Christ today (April 11, 2002) agree with you on your seven conditions for salvation or keeping one’s salvation. Some may state it differently, and some will have more conditions; some may have less. But that could change, and that change could be a result of our discussions at this web site, as we earnestly seek the Lord, learn the truth, speak our minds, and hammer out our theological differences in good conscience, with humility and respect for one another.
I believe that some of the conditions that you have stated here are very problematic and full of difficulties. No one in his right mind can defend the current position that you take. For now, let me say this. I believe that my personal salvation depends on one and only one condition: “Faith in Jesus Christ who is God the incarnated Logos (the Word becomes flesh). ‘He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory’ (1Timothy 3: 16), and is now living in me (Colossians 1: 26-29, 3: 4, Galatians 2:20, Philippians 1:17, 4: 13, John 15: 5).” Nothing I do, from the time I surrendered my life to Jesus until I go to be with him, matters or has anything to do with my salvation. Absolutely nothing! My past sins, current sins (confessed or not yet confessed), and my future sins, all have been taken care of, by his precious blood shed on the cross, once and for all. There is absolutely nothing I can add or take away from what Jesus has done. Any attempt to attach any other condition to my salvation other than faith in Jesus will defile what he has done, and any attempt to maintain the traditional teaching of the Church of Christ on this point will confuse believers and put them in bondage again. (References: Galatians 2: 11-21, 3: 1-14, 4: 8-11, 5: 1-15, Romans 4: 1-25, 5: 1-11, 6: 1-7, 6: 15-23).
If any one wonders how it is possible to live that way, that is wild, is not it? I say, just try it. Come and personally experience God’s presence and the power of his resurrected life at work in us! I believe and live under the Spirit’s control. Countless numbers of believers live this way too. Anyone can, by faith. This is not a power of lawlessness. It is the power to live by, and the power to change lives!
Joe, I know what I say here is a mouthful. Faith in Jesus is a mindset. Giving God permission to work in our lives is a mindset. Forgiving others is a mindset. Being a lover of the truth is a mindset. All these and any other mindset are a result, a fruit, or a part of the “faith in Jesus” mindset. Confession and repentance of sins, on the other hand, are actions and behaviors that we do as a result of this mindset. Keeping the Ten Commandments, nine commandments, any commandment is a behavior, an action, or work that we do as a result of this mindset. Taking care of your neighbor is an action stemmed from this mindset. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an act we should avoid. The avoidance is an act as a result of this mindset, faith in Christ.
You did not mention baptism. We all believe that Jesus commanded all believers to be baptized. No one has the authority to change what the Lord has commanded. We do it and teach all people to observe it as a result of this mindset. This is faith and obedience in Jesus, and all that he has commanded. Baptism carries a special meaning reflecting a believer’s faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord (Romans 6). The scriptures teach that our sins are forgiven and washed away from our lives, and we put on Christ at the time of baptism. (Luke 3: 3, Mark 16: 15, 16, Acts 2: 36-41, Galatians 3: 23-27) What then is baptism? It is an act, a pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is now living in us and who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand, with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him (1Peter 3: 21, 22). Baptism is an act. We preach, teach and practice it as a result of that mindset: Faith in Jesus. But our salvation is not based on any act, work, or behavior that we do or not do, but faith in Jesus alone. I know I have just opened a can of worms here. Please let me address it.
Question: If a person is not baptized, can he be saved? [What if the river is full of “crocs”? What if the man slips and falls on the way to a baptistry and dies before he is baptized? What if he is a thief and is now hung on a cross along side Jesus? What if the water is freezing cold? What if the man is very ill on his deathbed? What if there is no water around? What if there is no one around when I believe, confess, and repent, and an enemy shoots me dead in a foxhole before I am dunked under the water? What if I have hydrophobia? What if, what if… ad nauseam].
Answer: Am I God? Are you God? Are you asking me to judge a person’s salvation? Do you want to sit on God’s throne and judge some one’s salvation right now? What if you and I say he/she is saved, would that make that person saved? What if you and I say, no, he/she is not saved, would that make it so? Who is the ultimate judge? God. Then don’t ask me this question. I don’t know the answer. Neither does anyone. I teach and practice that which is commanded by the Lord. If any one has the mindset of faith in Jesus, he/she will find water and a way to be baptized when he first understands the gospel. If any man teaches otherwise, he has to deal with Jesus himself. If a person believes but is not baptized, God knows why. He knows everything. I don’t have to worry about judging a person’s final destination; neither does anyone concerning the question of water baptism.
How perfectly can one keep doing the right thing all the time and not sin? James says, “ For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it” (James 8-13). “Anyone who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins” (James 4: 16). God’s law is an expression of God’s Spirit in letters and words that we can read with our eyes and gain understanding from. This is what the Spirit wants us to learn and see. God’s law and the Spirit are not in conflict with one another. Paul says, “… live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature…” (Galatians 5: 16-26), that is, walk by the Spirit in faith, and we will not have to worry about breaking God’s law, or what we do for the rest of our lives! On the other hand, if we walk by the letters [Paul says, dead letters, as all legalists do, relying upon their work, action, performance, or whatever you want to call it.] and disregard the Spirit, you will end up in bondage again (Read 2 Corinthians 3: 1-18). This is what makes a believer or a church to go south: when one adds a spec of dust [by considering our good deed] to the gift of God, that person defiles the gift and brings it naught. God wants us to do works, not to be saved, but because we have been saved, to do his works on earth with him.
“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--It is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Ehpesians 2: 4-10).
Joe, I do not speak for anyone. I speak for myself. This is what I believe. This is where I feel the Lord has led me thus far. I feel free. I don’t need to depend on my action or behavior to keep my salvation. I don’t have to fear losing it either. Our Baptist kin are partially right in saying that, “Once saved is always saved, meaning, our salvation is not performance based. It is faith based.” As long as I know Jesus, have faith in him and let him live his life through me. Jesus is the eternal life. I am experiencing him. He inhabits my physical body now. Will he not continue to redeem it? If no one can snatch me out of his hands (John 10: 27-30), how can I lose it? If whatever I do or fail to do, does not nullify God’s gift to me, how can I lose my salvation? It looks very secured to me.
But, salvation is not unconditional. It is conditional upon my faith in Jesus and his resurrection power (John 3: 16-21, 1Corinthian 15: 1-11). I wish our Baptist friends would say it more clearly that as long as I have this faith in Jesus who lives his life through me, I have nothing to fear. I am not under the law of sin and death, nor to be judged by it any more (Romans 8: 1-17). Christ has paid it all. In that sense, I believe they are correct. Especially, when my faith is based on knowledge of the facts in history that Jesus is real. His death, burial, and resurrection are real and indeed took place, and now I personally experience of him in my life, he will never lose me, and I will not let go of my faith in him. This faith in Jesus and our knowledge of him is our eternal life (John 17: 1-5). Our salvation is not a matter of doing. It is faith [mindset, in our heart, mind, will, emotion, our soul, and our spirit] (Romans 1: 16, 17, 3:21-31, 4:1-112, 9:30-32, 10:1-17). Our doing reflects our faith within us. But we must not confuse the two.
Joe, I know in my heart that you love the Lord, and you have a lot of zeal and energy to serve him. But, but… our faith could be in what we have been taught, and our faith might be in the Church of Christ theology instead of the voice of the Spirit, speaking to us through the scriptures, even right now as we read. We might have been taught wrong in several crucial areas. Could that be? Am I wrong? Why don’t I worry about the issues that worry you and many others on this web site? You are now reading the reasons why. The Spirit of Jesus is alive and well in his church. He is in charge and is in control. Be at peace, brother.
Thank You, Sue T. I Am in a Ministry or Two Already.
April 16 2002, 8:52 PM
Thank you for your affirmation on what I wrote. I have read all of your posts here from the beginning, and I sense that the Lord is very much alive and well in you too. Please continue to post and speak your mind. I do appreciate what you have to say. The Lord has not prompted too many visitors to this board to participate, but I know he is at work here, and it is an honor to join him.
About going into the Ministry, yes, I have thought of it quite frequently in the last 35 years. About 10 years ago, I heard a man of God name Doug White at a men’s retreat in South Dallas. He shared his own personal experience that really impacted my thinking about my personal ministry. As close as I can remember it, here is the story.
One day, a wealthy friend in West Texas invited Doug for a day of quail hunting. This man owned a very large farm. While they were looking out at the field and listening to the quails in the distance, the man showed Doug his bird dog, a golden retriever that was sitting in a cage nearby. The man let the dog out, and the dog rushed out and sat in front of his owner, trembling with anticipation. The man pointed and the dog made a mad dash in the direction of the master’s finger, ignoring all the quail that can be seen in a different bush to the other side, only a few hundred yards away. When the dog got there, sniffed around furiously and occasionally looked back at the man as if to ask for further instruction. The dog actively searched for a bird but did not find any. The master whistled and pointed to another bush where there were no quail either. The dog looked at the bush where there were plenty of quail. He wanted to go there so bad but didn’t. He went to the bush that the master pointed out to him. The dog did not find any bird there, but kept on searching. The master finally whistled for the dog to come back to him. The dog immediately ran straight back and sat down in front him, salivating. The man pointed to the cage. The dog with his head and tail dropped down, went into the cage and lay down, looking quietly at the master for a new instruction.
Doug said he learned something that was life changing that day. He wanted to be just like that dog to his Master. Can this dog hunt or what? Its obedience obviously came only as a result of repeated communication and training. Furthermore, there must have been a joyous, loving, and trusting relationship also that had developed over time between the owner and the dog. How much is this dog worth? Priceless! What is the difference between this golden retriever and any other dog?
When I heard the story, I was so convicted. Only untrained dogs do their own thing! They are practically useless to the Master. They have no obedience training. I told myself, I want this obedience training. I will be still. I will be attentive. I will be available. I want to learn to discern and recognize the voice and command of my Lord. Jesus says, “my sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life” (John 10: 27f). He is the eternal life. He lives in us! How come we have not heard from him? There is something seriously amiss in our theology here. Since then I have learned to listen very carefully. Anyone can. Jesus has chosen a symbolic number of 144,000 believers on planet earth to be in his army and follow his command at all times. Who are they, and where are they? (Read Revelation 7:1-8, 14: 1-5, 19: 13, 14). But that is another matter for another time.
FYI, as for a ministry, he has called me to be involved with the Thai and Laotian believers in DFW area for about 18 years already. For the last 12 years, the Lord has given me a business to support myself. My involvement with the Asian people has not diminished. During the last 3 years, I meet with 30 to 80 adults each Saturday afternoon from house to house in the metroplex for a common meal, fellowship, and Bible study. Most of these Laotian believers attend South MacArther Church of Christ in Irving, TX. There are 6-7 families, including my family, meet at RHCC on Sunday mornings.
Since last July, on Friday afternoons, a couple of Laotian brothers and I spend about four hours preparing and recording a one hour weekly radio program in Thai and Laotian languages on tape for non-believers, who are Buddhists. The program is called “Kemtid” meaning “the Compass” pointing to the True North, which is Jesus. It is aired twice a week on an ethnic radio station in Dallas. World Radio Gospel Broadcasts in West Monroe, LA helps pay for the airtime. Kemtid was featured on the front page of the January/February 2002 issue of the World Radio News. For now, my time is quite full from Friday afternoon through Sunday afternoon, but I love what I do.
My wife and I placed our membership at RHCC about two years ago and we love this church. I believe this is one of the most godly, active, and fruitful congregations that I have ever been a part of, and I have seen many. We live in Wylie (10 miles north of Garland and 10 miles east of Plano). It takes us exactly one hour from our garage to the church parking lot every Sunday morning, on the freeway. We get up at 5:30 so that we can be in the first service at 8 a.m. Rick’s sermons fire me up and drive my convictions deeper every time. Once or twice a month, I witness someone being baptized into Christ. And it is not Rick that has taught them, or baptized them either. A few other people here have been busy sharing Jesus! At 9:30 we go to a small class taught by Byron Ware. This class ministers to me every time I attend. From 11 to 12:30 we have our Bible class in Thai, Laotian, and/or English language, depending on who attends. We usually go to lunch together or eat at some one’s home before we head back to Wylie. Between sleeping, working, and making my wife Joyce happy, I manage to scribble a few lines here and there. And that is my current weekly routine or ministry, if you please.
I would love to go to China or Thailand someday and spend the remainder of my life serving Jesus there. But for now I have not heard a peep from the Lord on this. Joyce and I have lived in Dallas since 1983, and the Lord has been gracious. Our roots are quite deep here. I am constantly looking at the Master and listening for his command.
Thanks for asking. May the Lord bless you as you serve him.
Hang in there brother, I would like to help, but as you said "I believe that some of the conditions that you have stated here are very problematic and full of difficulties. No one in his right mind can defend the current position that you take." So I have to take my wrong mind and pray that the Holy Spirit can help. Please test what you hear, remember the Satan can come to you as a Angle of Light, so becareful which Spirit you listen to.
Thank you, Joe, for reminding me to test what I hear. Satan can come to all of us as an angel of light, so be careful which spirit we listen to. Yes sir, I receive that. May I also add a few thoughts in this area? God’s Spirit speaking through the apostle John says this:
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world” (1John 4:1-3).
I see that we, in the Churches of Christ, have drawn the line where the Spirit did not draw, and ignore the line where the Spirit has told us to draw. The one and only line which translates into a test question for fellowship in which we, as believers of Jesus Christ, must ask and know in our heart when we talk to any one is: “Who is Jesus Christ to you?” If we discern that the answer is “He is God who came in the flesh [The Word became flesh, God incarnated],” or something to that effect, then the person is on our side. Although we might be reluctant to embrace this person for some reason, and this person might still be misguided in some areas, like all of us are, without exception, this person, however, is not our enemy. He is not a false teacher or false prophet, though he might venture to speak on things he does not fully understand. We all do, at times, as we grow. All believers in different churches and denominations who confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is their personal Savior are not our enemies. “Therefore I [Paul] tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, ‘Jesus be cursed,’ and no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1Corinthians 12: 3).
The Enemy [Satan] wants us to believe that they are our enemies, and he has convinced many of us just that. He wants us to fight each other and devour each other, and keep on doing that. Are we so ignorant of his scheme? The Spirit does not want any one of us to compromise our personal convictions on disputable matters. He gives us the freedom to search, learn, and grow. He is patient with all of us. Do not build walls. Build bridges. Do not divide. Unite. Share your understanding and your faith with one another, so that we all can grow in faith and knowledge of the truth together and help each other fight a common battle against the real enemies. Do you want to know who the real enemies are?
No one who has the spirit of antichrist can admit that, “Jesus Christ is God who actually became a human being and lived among us on this planet earth 2000 years ago.” Just ask any practicing Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Shin