Kevin Hamm = not a member of RHCC. Kevin evidently couldn't find enough people to argeu with on his own forum (Hillcrest in Abilene), so he came over here. Really, Kevin...do you need to argue that badly? Just curious...
I never pretended to be a member of RHCC. My name is right there at the Hillcrest Church of Christ message board for all to see. Who I am and where I go to church make my "points no less valid" to mirror something you posted on the Hillcrest message board.
And, by the way, you still didn't answer my questions.
Apparently, for you to be striking out at me personally, I must have posted something that hit a nerve. I wonder what that could be.....
Prayerfully Onward,
Kevin
This message has been edited by KevinHamm from IP address 205.172.62.1 on Apr 1, 2002 7:26 AM
...and nothing you've posted has, "Hit a nerve" as you put it. I had never visited the Hillcrest site before, but did so by accident the other day and saw that you started it. No wonder you feel the need to spread dissension over here too...
Do we know you are a member of Richland Hills Church of Christ because you had the strength of conviction to put your real name on your posts or because you chose to use anonymous initials instead?
I would rather be known as spreading "dissension" than as spreading "discord" as you seem to be doing.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matthew 7:16)
I see repeated demands on here, and I can hear the holier-than-thou phrase, "well, yes, he has some good points, but after all, he uses initials". Gimme a break...I can call myself a zebra, but the fact remains you deflect people away from the truth by MAJORING IN MINORS - there's your favorite phrase, Kevin :)
CW...Your point is irrelevant to the issues being discussed
April 1 2002, 10:30 AM
I have no problem with Kevin questioning what we do at Richland Hills whether he is a member or not. Kevin, being a Christian, atleast has come to ask questions of the Richland Hills members about what we practice rather than spread gossip about us without knowing facts. CW, would you have a problem if an unbeliever, who does not regularly attend RHCOC, questioned what we say and practice? I don't and I hope that you wouldn'e either. Richland Hills church of Christ is not a body of believers unto themselves. We, like any other body of believers in the world are to be held accountable to the Bible by God and by other Christians. (I John 4:1, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Remember, even Paul rebuked Peter for hypocrisy (Galatians 2).
Keep in mind, the Bible clearly teaches that what we say and practice is open to question no matter if what we do is right or not. Taking an argument to a personal attack against another Christian to try to make what he says illegitimate only shows that the attacker's argument being presented does not have scriptural basis.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)
...consider prayerfully that they just might apply to you. Kevin, I've nothing againts you personally because I don't know you. But I do know that you have a closed mind when it comes to listening to others, and that you started the divisive discussion over at the Hillcrest. Do you really think this is what God expects from us?
Those that know me know that I am one of the most open minded people they've ever met. They also know that they must have proof to back up their arguments because I WILL ask questions. They know that I am strong in my convictions and I will not compromise them.
They know that I don't change for change's sake. They know that I don't believe the end justify's the means. They know that I believe the whole Bible is our core gospel. They know that I will weigh the evidence on both sides of any issue and they know that I will search the Scriptures to know if what they say is true.
Have you actually READ his posts? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...I would hardly call what I said about Kevin a personal attack. Now what I said about Kenneth..that was a personal attack :)
"Kevin, being a Christian, atleast has come to ask questions of the Richland Hills members about what we practice rather than spread gossip about us without knowing facts."
Huh? This is the same Kevin Hamm who posted such gems as:
"The Change Agents [very scary] have taken control of the avenues for getting their message out. They spout it from the pulpit, they hand out "Shepherding Notes" with the "Order of Worship" [eek no! not an ORDER OF WORSHIP!] and they control the bulletins [well, they do print them...]. I don't see anything wrong with getting the Truth [according to Kevin] out by any means to fight this perversion of the Truth. Most members of our congregations don't realize that their Bibles have been corrupted by the Change Agents."
Doesn't sound like a question to me...More tellingly, he is the one who started the entire discussion on the Hillcrest site here at concernedmembers.com. He has proven his need to divide is greater than his need to serve the Lord...
"To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." (2 Cor 2:10-11)
"Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." (James 3:13-17)
"And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ." (1 Peter 3:13-16)
...that you feel the need to forgive me, but also, that you feel the need to let others know that you have forgiven me. Think about that, Kevin...
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (Mat 6:5 NIV)
This has degenerated into a catfight that is beneficial to no one. Bretheren, if you just want to argue, like so many I have known in the past,give it up. The way this is going can do no good, only harm those too weak to understand. Proving your superior biblical knowledge through name calling and accusations about meaningless things like church directories and your interpretation of history really leaves me cold. Give it up and let's go for the unity Jesus prayed for in John 17. gw
...I can see where Kenneth and Kevin are coming from. I would LOVE to enter a worship service where everyone was already on their knees in reverent silence. Small groups of believers would be gathered around, encouraging and praying with one another. Various people would stand up and give their testimony about how God has moved in their lives this week. This would go on for awhile, then we would have a meal together, and continue as before. People who didn't know the Lord would be exposed to it in a very personal setting, with others sharing what becoming a Christian has meant to them. This is how the early church worshipped...
BUT, no one can tell me that the way we worship now is something the condemns us all. It's just not borne out by scripture.
Rom. 8:1-2 I am free forever from condemnation.
Rom. 8:28 I am assured that all things work together for good.
Rom. 8:31-34 I am free from any condemning charges against me.
Rom. 8:35-39 I cannot be separated from the love of God.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 I have been established, anointed, and sealed by God.
Col. 3:3 I am hidden with Christ in God.
Phil. 1:6 I am confident that the good work God has begun in me will be perfected.
Phil 3:20 I am a citizen of heaven.
2 Tim. 1:7 I have not been given a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind.
Heb. 4:16 I can find grace and mercy in time of need.
1 John 5:18 I am born of God, and the evil one cannot touch me.
...I have all the "clues" I need, thank you. And we come back once again to the question that no one of you will answer directly: Show me a scripture that condemns me to hell if I attend a church with no deacons, or one where instruments are used in worship. Kevin has quoted everything but that, because it does not exist. He has shifted things to a personal discussion with me that's really not necessary in order to avoid his inability to back up his strong stance on the entire issue. My salvation does not hinge on any of that. If it did, God would have been very clear in scripture about it.
Kevin quotes the scriptures to deflect everyone from the fact that there is nothing that specifically condemns the RHCC (or Hillcrest, or Madison) elders for what they have decided to do. So, Joe, I'm not the one who needs to wake up here...
There is no scripture that says that will condemn your soul to hell if where you worship does not have Deacons or, for that matter, Elders. I have been a member at very small congregations in the past that there were neither Deacons or Elders and we were just as scripturally sound as the churches that did. Where you and I differ on this is who can be a Deacon. Since we had a lengthy discussion about this earlier, I see no point in going into this further with you unless you would like to. Personally, I think the misuse of the term Deacon, in which I believe from scripture that Richland Hills has violated, is a clear departure from scripture as I concluded from my studies of the Bible and prayer. But to say that someone is going to hell just because there are no Deacons in the church they attend cannot be found in scripture.
As far as instrumental music goes, I once preached a sermon on this 8 years ago. Before my preparation of that sermon, I was fully convinced that Instrumental Music within the congreational assembly was a direct violation of scripture. During and after my preparation for that sermon, I became fully convinced that it is not a violation of scripture. I think that the two main verses that are used to teach against Instrumental Music (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16) and others used within the New Testament are misused. Do I think that Instrumental Music should be used at Richland Hills...No. My reasoning for this is that it would be a stumbling block for many believers at RHCOC and that it would cause further division in the church.
Rich, we completely agree on the music issue. While there is no scriptural basis not to have instruments during worship at RHCC, it would be VERY damaging to the body and cause needless problems - something that IS condemned by scripture. I have found, when I attended services where instruments were use, that it was difficult to feel as close to God as when they were not.
The deacon "issue" remains a non-issue for me. I still believe that it could have been handled better, but that's water under the bridge.
Not sure why my reply to this one didn't show yet...my point all along has been that this entire discsussion is about preferences rather than principle.
CW...I've noticed the same time lags. It's possible that the forum moderators have experienced technical difficulties or maybe have other things to do that take precedent. The "preference" issue is real in division. Some things at the congregation level could have been communicated better and handled better. I know that for sure at Madison and sense the same here at RHCC. I see positive movement in saints going to the Word for understanding. That's the way it should be! What satan means for evil God can use for good. Keep the faith and positive attitude. From reading your posts, I sense you are in the Dallas area. I'd like to communicate with you outside the forum about an outreach we are doing in Dallas September 5-8, 2002. This is for anyone else that may have interest.
Your right: the worship format and deacons issues are smoke screens as to what the agents of Satan are up to in the church today. The comdemnation issue that these smoke screens are covering up is PAGAN GOD WORSHIP IN THE CHURCH. This is what Mad-madison and rhcc and many other congregations will be judge by God/Christ for. This is the true sin that they must confess and repented of. This is the sin that the Elders are guilty of. This is the sin that Paul said will cause God to send a strong delusion that we will believe a lie, that we will be DAMN for, because we do not love the truth. The truth is PAGAN gODS are introduced into our congregation by the elders to appease people instead of giving them the truth. The truth is the elders are faithless and they are doing it their own way cause they don't believe God knows how to bring in the people to increase their coffers to fulfill their LUST. This is the sin, HIRELINGS are the biggest idol of the PAGAN gODS WE HAVE IN THE CHURCH TODAY. All these other issues you what to smoke screen us with is what we LOVERS OF CHRIST need to overlook and cut the root of Satan out of the church before God does. When God cuts it out He cuts DEEP, just ask the children of Israel in the old testament, then read Revelations. You will seek death, but you will not find it. When God cuts it out, He cuts it out. I got to stop while there are keys left on this key board.
...but that's ok. Has it ever crossed your mind that what you term, "pagan worship" may be the only worship some people do in a given week?? For them, the way we currently worship may actually be VERY meaningful and draw them closer to God. Just because you don't see it that way, try to see it from their perspective...God does NOT condemn it, so what's your issue?
How in the world can anyone think that pagan god worship is OK with God? Some one that does not read a bible, any version. What is my issue? Some have asked what is going on with the Church that has caused so much trouble? I was just answering their question, It is pagan god worship in the Church, in our lives, and in our homes. I don't care if you wish to practice worshipping other gods or not. But of coarse I'm not the one you will have to answer to, and I don't have to answer for your pagan activities, I have warned you about Pagan gods and your worshipping them.
Joe, please clarify and explain your statements in quotations, and respond to my comments and questions in the […]’s. Thanks.
“… PAGAN GOD WORSHIP IN THE CHURCH.” [What is pagan god worship in the church? Please be specific.]
“The truth is PAGAN gODS [What pagan gods?] are introduced into our congregation by the elders to appease people [who are the people?] instead of giving them the truth. [Truth according to Joe McKnight, or Kenneth Sublett? Whose truth?] The truth is the elders are faithless [Please present the evidence to support ‘your claim to the truth’ that they are faithless] and they are doing it their way cause they don’t believe [How do you know they don’t believe?] God knows how to bring in the people to increase their coffers to fulfill their LUST [Are their personal coffers and the church coffers one and the same, or connected in any way? Do you have any evidence that any elder at rhcc financially benefit from any increase or decrease in the church coffers?] This is the sin. HIRELINGS are the biggest idol of the PAGAN gODS WE HAVE IN THE CHURCH TODAY. [Joe, you have tried to defined the word, “hirelings” for me once already. Do you need to redefine this same word? You say they are the biggest idol of the pagan gods. Question: Who worships them at Madison or at rhcc? Can you name a few names? If you can’t, then you are slandering and smearing the names of all your Christian brothers and sisters who worship there. Is this the right thing to do?] All these other issues you want to smoke screen us [Talk about smoke screen ... Please Joe, do not insult the intelligence of your readers. They have eyes that can read, and mind that can discern the truth. Let them decide and sort out for themselves who is full of smoke screen, fog, haze, and hot air on this web site.], that which we LOVERS OF CHRIST need to overlook and cut the root of Satan out of the church before God does. [Open your eyes, Joe, the cutting operation has already begun. The root of Satan is already being exposed. All of the trees that the Father did not plant will be uprooted. Have you no eyes to see for yourself? Are you living in delusion or utter denial?]...”
Dear Brother Chai:
I apologize for my inability to be clear and for assuming readers have read the other posts concerning the pagan gods that are running ramped throughout the church. I also assume that if I can see it, then it is obvious to everyone, but that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is blaspheming because, what I think is common sense is actually the gift of discernment. I must remember: that the gift of discernment is not for everyone, therefore I must be patience and detailed when sharing the product of my gift of discernment: The truth.
What are Pagan gods?
The gods that pagans worship instead of the one and true God, YAHWEH
Go to Sunday School in Exile it is covered there, very well.
Who are the people?
The sheep that the elders are suppose to be caring for. But more and more they are seen as a human resource to make money off of, to fund their lusts with. This too is covered very well in other posts.
The true according to Joe or Ken?
No, it is just Joe and Ken do not just rely on the “Milk sermons and teaching” of the church for our relationship with our LORD and Master. We have read about the pagan gods, and the associated worship activities and we see it in the church. Therefore we, being godly men that love God and His saints, stand and shine the light on the agents of Satan and they do not like it. If that offends you, then you need to do a self-check and test your stand or your teachings against the Word: the test, is also covered in Sunday School in Exile.
NOTE: I have not known Ken before all this, nor have I yet, to meet him in person. It is just that we have both seen the false teachings and met resistance and attacks when trying to correct the false teachings. These acts of resistances and attacks has caused me to see it is not just false teachings, it is LIES.
Evidence of faithlessness?
This is where I need to be patient with my gift of discernment. It is right there in front of your face. When you do not do it God’s way, and decide to come up with a different way, it is because you do not have the faith to trust God to do it right: Therefore, you are faithless. God’s way is not to pay honor to pagan gods, period…! If your elders insist on bring pagan gods into the fold, then leave that flock, QUICKLY.
Personal coffers and the church coffers: one and the same?
Again, I have covered this subject very well in other posts: Money is not the only lust, that man has.
Redefine Hireling again?
I was not trying to redefine the word hirelings again, that is just what they are: Hirelings. And they are EVIL!
Slandering and smearing all your Christian bros &sis.
That is your opinion and it is wrong. I slander and smear the HIRELINGS. If you are one of them, then I pity you. You can come out, but I would hurry, there just is not much time left.
Discernment, is a gift from the Holy Spirit. I not mind sharing the things that I discern, but it is also my obligation to sound the warnings for the things the Holy Spirit has shown me through this gift of discernment. Again, I want to thank Concern Members for this web site. It is the only way to get the truth out, because the Hirelings do not want the sheep to know the truth. Hirelings use pagan gods, it is only common sense that they will not teach the truth about them. If you would like this gift of discernment to protect yourself and your family, then just ask the Holy Spirit of it. Let me suggest that you also ask for His grace to endure the attacks that come with discernment. I say that because, man is not friendly with the truth and neither is the church now. It is the Laodician church age. And as you can tell from this web site, when you stand for the truth Satan’s agents and the hirelings attack. Be strong, we will overcome, and will receive our Fine White Linens and ride into battle with the King of kings and take vengeance on Satan’s buddies (Rev. 19). Then it is the Sabbath Kingdom and we will not have to deal with this garbage for a 1000 years (Rev. 20). Then one more battle and Heaven (Rev. 21). Thank you Lord Jesus.
Joe, I asked you "What are pagan gods?' Your answer: "The gods that pagans worship instead of the one and true God, YAHWEH. [Joe, there are thousands of pagan gods in this world, which ones are worshiped at rhcc? Are they real idols located in the auditorium? Are they material objects? Or, are they abstract gods? Since they are so obvious to you, and you believe you have the gift of discernment, please explain to me more fully about these gods that you said have been introduced by the elders and are worshipped at rhcc. Let the elders and all believers know about these specific pagan gods and pagan god worship, so that the guilty ones then will be able to repent. I just don't see the idols or pagan god worship at rhcc, brother. Please don’t give me any more smoke screen, fog or haze, OK? Just identify them.] Go to Sunday school in Exile it is covered there, very well." [Joe, are you giving me a run around? You don't really have the answer, do you? If you do, let’s hear it.]
Tell me, Joe, I am just curious, what are some of the differences or distinctions that you see between church worship in your church and the church worship at Madison, rhcc, or at Hillcrest? Just list them in simple English point by point without gibberish. That might clear up a lot of things. Would you do that?
Now about "hirelings." This is you sore spot. Let me share with you how I see it, Joe.
If anyone assumes a God given responsibility in a local church, and feels in his/her heart that God has called him/her to serve in that capacity, he/she is a hireling of God. It does not matter whether that person is recognized, appointed to an office, compensated in anyway, directly or indirectly or not. God’s anointing is on his/her head, and he/she is a hireling of God. If this is true, both you and me are counted in that number, brother. You and I are not evil, are we? Brother, the Lord has blessed me with a business in Dallas, TX that puts bread on the table for my wife and me quite adequately. I don’t need or have not taken any support money from any one or any church for over twelve years now. How about you? How are you supported, and how are you different from other hirelings? Do you mind sharing it?
Joe, I sense bitterness and unforgiveness in your heart in this area. By your own words you said of yourself: "I slander and smear the HIRELINGS." Is this a characteristic of a man of God? Do you have any regard for the scriptures? Do you think you can keep on doing this with impunity from the Lord? You claim to have a gift of discernment and a defender of the truth. Talk about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, do you think the Spirit of Christ in you is pleased with you are doing? Is it not a mockery of God? Can’t you tell what is right and what is wrong any more? It is going to take toll on your health and your effectiveness in serving the Lord, my dear brother. Think! Think! Think! Wake up, Joe!
May I remind everyone who read this post to take heed of the warning from the Spirit. “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4: 12-13). Jesus says to us that the Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words that he has spoken to us are spirit and they are life! (John 6: 63).
“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you” (Ephesians 5: 6-14).
“But now you must rid yourselves of such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator” (Colossians 3: 8-10).
“Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, [these are the ones whom Joe McKnight contemptuously calls the ‘hirelings’] who are over you in the Lord [elders of at least three churches, whom Joe McKnight and Kenneth Sublett attack and slander] and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other” (1 Thessalonians 5: 12, 13).
“To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good” (Titus 1: 15, 16).
“Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior” (Titus 3: 1-6).
“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you thing a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy things the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrew 10: 26-31).
Jesus our Lord has this to say to all of us. “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters [are we gathering or scattering?]. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. [Can one make a mockery of the Spirit in the body of Christ with impunity?] Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the Day of Judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by you words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matthew 12: 30-37).
Joe, these warnings are specifically for you, Kenneth Sublett, and me. Let all the readers of this post remember.
You are sorry suckers if you think you can get rid of me. I will not go away! I will haunt you in your dreams. You cannot keep me out. I will LIVE ON!!!!!
You think silencing those that criticise you will keep things you despise from happening....you are MISTAKEN! These things will not go away.
You admit you are losers when you do things like this!
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)