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Once Saved, Always Saved?

April 2 2002 at 1:47 PM
Kevin Hamm 
from IP address

I'm really trying to understand "salvation issues". When one talks of something not being a "salvation issue", are they really saying that once you are saved you are always saved and everything else doesn't really matter? Are they saying that God's grace will cover all errors in doctrine?

Please help me understand.

Prayerfully Onward,


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Ah now this?

April 2 2002, 1:57 PM 

Here we in another direction.

You can walk away from God, but - but this is important - no scripture says that not having deacons = turning your back on God.

Kevin, find me a scripture that says that unless a church has deacons, they have fallen away. Deacons are not part of the Gospel. Likewise, find me one that says that if they choose to clap or have instruments in worship, they have fallen away. It just doesn't say that, and you keep avoiding that issue. Dig deep - really think about it.

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Kevin Hamm

Again, what are salvation issues to you?

April 2 2002, 3:11 PM 

I am trying to understand what you mean by "salvation issues". I have asked you to define what they are to you and I have only received responses about what they are not. Can you tell me what "salvation issues" are?

From the scriptures that literal seed put forth and by your response to them, I was under the impression that you were referring to "once saved, always saved". If this is not the case, then enlighten me.

Prayerfully Onward,


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April 2 2002, 7:24 PM 

...not sure where you got that I was referring to OSAS. There is no condemantion for those who are in Christ Jesus. It's the "being in" part that gets us all arguing.

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Royce Ogle

Salvation Issues?

March 7 2005, 1:52 PM 

There is but one "Salvation Issue" Those who have Christ are saved, those who do not are lost. Too simple? It is that simple.

The judgement of the unsaved dead will be concerned with only one issue. What did you do about Christ?

Lets suppose we could interview someone in hell.. We ask the question, "Why are you here, you once were a baptised Christian?" And he answers, "I was party to a piano in worship on Sunday morning!" "Thats it?" We ask. "You mean to tell me that God kicked you out of the kingdom because of a piano?"

We ask another, "Why, sir are you here?" You trusted Christ the best you knew how and were immersed in water and told you had eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit as a result. He sadly answers, "I was a member of a church that allowed women to serve others. We called them something else, but they were deacons." We say "You didn't turn your back on God? "You didn't committ adultry and become a drunk?" "God kicked you out of His family because the congregatgion you worshipped with had some female deacons?" "Yes, as far as I know that was my only offence and I am here in hell forever."

Surprised we ask, "What about those mean spirited men who in the name of Christ spent most of their time running down and criticizing others who were claiming to belong to the same Lord as they?" "Are they here?" He replies, "No, I suppose and indirect link to a piano on Sunday morning is worse than slander, gossip, lying, back biting, and hatred."

Does this hypothetical interview make sense to you? It doesnt't to God either. These self appointed guardians of the historic Christian faith need to repent and start to love their brothers and sisters, even if they are different than they. If you don't love your brother whom you can see, how can you love God whom you cannot see?

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Re: Salvation Issues?

June 16 2011, 10:00 AM 

God killed Uzzah for touching the Ark? God killed Nadab and Abihu for offering strange fire? Make sure you're careful when stepping into God's shoes. Does He say women can serve as deacons? No. Therefore, why would you say that's a "silly" reason to be in hell? As we all know, God is very forgiving and gracious, but let's not underestimate the seriousness of His word.

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Chai Voraritskul

Salvation Issues and Once Saved Always Saved?

April 2 2002, 6:21 PM 

Kevin, your have raised two very important questions, and they are worthy of prayerful consideration by all believers. What are the salvation issues? Obviously salvation issues could be different for each believer based on one’s understanding and theology. What do you consider to be your own personal salvation issues? Any one? Let’s hear it. Are all issues equal in their importance to you? Not all sins lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death (1John 5: 16, 17). Is there any connection here?

Is once saved always saved? This is an old theological issue between the Baptists and CoC. Could we have some input? Thanks for bringing up these vital questions, Kevin. I would love to hear a variety of responses myself.

Chai Voraritskul 4/2/2002

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Kevin Hamm

Some Scriptures

April 2 2002, 9:25 PM 

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:11-13)

"But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:45-46)

"A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:5-15)

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:1-2)

"Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." (1 Tim 3:6)

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:14)

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19)

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:25-31)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)

Prayerfully Onward,


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literal seed

Who shall be saved? GOD's decision!

April 3 2002, 12:24 AM 

Kevin, thank you for continuing in the Word for clarification by study. It is the means to salvation through understanding for those who will take the time and and expend the effort.

I'll try to respond by paragraph for simplicity sake.

1) This entire chapter answers end time occurences. The focus is "endure with love" until the end. (LOVE=sharing the message and evidence of His love)

2) Check out Luke 12 in its entirety...speaks about being at the Master's work...once again sharing the message and evidence of LOVE.

3) Luke 8 entire chapter...the message is share the Word unitl it bears fruit in your life and in the lives of those who accept's not the preacher, evangelist or missionary's is the job of the saint! The others' job is to equip the saint to reach the lost...Eph 4 entire chapter.

4) 1 Cor speaks of core beliefs in Christ...the concern was over those that questioned Jesus empty tomb? Get real! Without it we live a lie.

5) Elder qualifications? 1Tim 3...I'm done!

Got to's evident that taking small portions out of context is of little use to me in trying to understand your case. What I have gleaned is the ever present need for all believers to share their faith on a regular basis...prepared to bring those who respond to become fruit bearers also. If our focus remains in this, I don't see much difficulty in reaching heaven.

Dispatched to heaven by way of Sacrifice

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yes, but remember...

April 3 2002, 8:19 AM 

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 7:21 NIV)

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' (Mat 7:22 NIV)

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Mat 7:23 NIV)

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. (Mat 7:24 NIV)

The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. (Mat 7:25 NIV)

But everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. (Mat 7:26 NIV)

The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." (Mat 7:27 NIV)

Transformation of our lives is what Jesus expects, not just "Hey I'm in for life - where's the party this weekend?".

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literal seed

...memory is crystal...lest we forget

April 3 2002, 11:11 AM 

CW..I can't agree more! Let's have a look at the rest of the chapter though.

1 "Don't judge other people, or you will be judged. 2 You will be judged in the same way that you judge others, and the amount you give to others will be given to you. 3 "Why do you notice the little piece of dust in your friend's eye, but you don't notice the big piece of wood in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your friend, 'Let me take that little piece of dust out of your eye'? Look at yourself! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye. 5 You hypocrite! First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly to take the dust out of your friend's eye. 6 "Don't give holy things to dogs, and don't throw your pearls before pigs. Pigs will only trample on them, and dogs will turn to attack you.

7 "Ask, and God will give to you. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will open for you. 8 Yes, everyone who asks will receive. Everyone who searches will find. And everyone who knocks will have the door opened. 9 "If your children ask for bread, which of you would give them a stone? 10 Or if your children ask for a fish, would you give them a snake? 11 Even though you are bad, you know how to give good gifts to your children. How much more your heavenly Father will give good things to those who ask him!

12 "Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets. 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the road is wide that leads to hell, and many people enter through that gate. 14 But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road.

15 "Be careful of false prophets. They come to you looking gentle like sheep, but they are really dangerous like wolves. 16 You will know these people by what they do. Grapes don't come from thornbushes, and figs don't come from thorny weeds. 17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 In the same way, you will know these false prophets by what they do.

Notice the verses immediately prior where you began to quote...15 through 20. True transformation has everything to do with bearing fruit...good fruit. Focus on fruit...He will take care of the rest.

blessings and thanks for the lesson


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Joe McKnight

This is a tough one for us coC'ers

April 3 2002, 7:37 PM 

Brother Kevin:
This is a tough one, and a life of coC teaching makes it even tougher. You can use scriptures to argue both sides of this one, but keep one thing in mind when pondering this subject. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus, Jesus paid it all because He was the only payment possible. In Galatians Paul is addressing the issue of going back under the Law to please God. Chapter two & three of your KJV covers it very well that it is all Jesus. We are justified by the faith of Christ, not our works. Nothing we can do will save us, it is all Jesus. I have wrote before about being the bride of Christ, that means He: our Husband, is responsible for His wife: us. Numbers 30 tell us the a law/type of the responsibility of a husband over his wife. If she makes a vow it is up to the husband to validate it or not. Deut. 24 it was the husband option to write a divorcement if he found uncleanness in her, not the wife or the father in-law.
We are the betroth bride of Christ (we become the bride of Christ after the tribulation, while the world is getting 7 vials of wrath, we are getting our sins burned off.) God had the prophet Hosea take a wife of whoredom (Gomer)to show the children of Israel how they were acting with their idols, yet God kept buying them back. The main things are: 1. Love God/Jesus with all your heart, soul, and mind. 2. Confess and repent of sins, Jesus took care of the sin issue. 3. Be a lover of the Truth: II Thess. 2:10-12. 4.The most important is not to frustrate the Grace of God (the Holy Spirit). It is the Holy Spirit that Keeps us in Christ till He comes to get us, but it is our right (as free will, sovereign kings) as to whom we give permission to work in our lives. We can, shut down the Holy Spirit's influence in our life.
I have given you enough to ponder for now, but once you get a hold of this, see if you don't get mad at what has been stolen from you by Hirelings. (I just had to bring it up, Didn't I)

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

P.S. Next time we'll talk about the New Creature that we are by marital inheritance. This is real good stuff.

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Sandi Smith

Do not be ashamed

April 22 2002, 7:29 AM 

We are not "church of Christers." We are Christians, disciples of Christ, yes, the Bride of Christ. It is time we stop being brow-beaten into politically correct submission! CHRIST, the Son of God, GOD HIMSELF, established this church, not us, the members of this Body. I make no apologies that I am a member of the ONE BODY of CHRIST. That was His plan, and I accepted His will for His church when I put Him on in baptism. That is the only way to be added to HIS church, and the only way to receive the blessings of being a part of the church of Christ. Christ loves this church - He died for this church - and we should love it, too: with no shame and no apology.

Denominations are just that: divisions, bodies that have separated from the Body of Christ. They are lost, and we need not placate them with pretty words. Read Ezekiel: we are the guards on the watchtower, and if we have relationships with these people and don't warn them of hell but pat them on the head and pretend all is well, we will be guilty of their lost souls and lose ours in the process.

Harsh words? YES! But these are the words of Christ Himself, from Whom many "Christians" seem to have taken all authority and power by saying 'He won't really punish people because He loves too much!' Are they saying Christ is a liar? God forbid!

Be not deceived. The epistles of the New Testament we written to baptized believers; Christians. They were not written to all peoples of all faiths - that is an absurd notion. We need not try to sugar-coat the Truth. There is one LORD, one faith (system of worship and belief), one baptism (meaning burial in water), and ONE CHURCH ~ all established by Christ.

We are not a denomination! We should be proud and grateful that God gave us this beautiful gift of His church (the called out of God). And, we should be trying to save those who do not believe this Truth.

Pretty words that tickle the ears have been mastered by people like Max Lucado, but let the Scriptures (Words and Laws - yes, LAWS of Christ) assure you that his pretty words are NOT Truth and will NOT save men but condemn men to Hell.

How sad. . .I pray for Christ's one church every day - that we all wake up and repent before Him (for making His church a mockery before all the world) before is is everlasingly too late!

Sandi Smith
(I only did not reference scripture because there are so many - if anyone requires a scriptural reference for any of these points, please write and let me know. They are there, and we should all be reading them every day!)

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Chai Voraritskul

We Are Not a Denomination! What Are We?

April 23 2002, 6:10 PM 

Sandi, I am just trying to get a reference point as to where you stand, and for whom are you speaking when you say, “We are not ‘church of Christers’.” This is the first time I ever heard this type of name-calling. Were you ever called by that name by someone? Why would someone call any believer by that name? Would you care to elaborate?

You seem to have so much anger in your writing. I am not too concerned as to what position you or anyone takes on any issue within the body of Christ. To me, salvation is not “positional” but “directional.” It is not where I stand on issues confronting my own life or the life of a church today but toward what direction I am moving on each issue that is far more important. Ray Chester, who was the minister at Sixteenth and Decatur Church of Christ in Washington, D. C., in 1960 baptized me into Christ. That was 42 years ago. Since that time, I have changed my convictions on different issues many times. As I ponder and permit God’s words to speak to me afresh every time I read them, it becomes more and more apparent to me, that numerous godly men, who taught me, could be sincerely wrong on issues within the church. There are probably still plenty of misunderstandings present in mine, theirs, and in your very own life as well. Or, have you already arrived at a perfect state of understanding?

I believe God’s grace is sufficient for all of us. We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (Ephesians 2:10). And he is not finished with me yet. Is he finished with you? I can not speak for you. But as for myself, as long as I am moving in the right direction and growing in knowledge and understanding, I know he is patient with me. And my salvation is secured in Christ. His grace was sufficient for me as well as for those who taught wrongly in the past. God’s grace is sufficient for us now, and it will continue to be in the future, regardless of our misconception on any issue within the church. How are you different from anyone on this point? Let’s hear it.

You said, “It is time we stop being brow-beaten into politically correct submission!” Is anyone guilty of browbeating anyone into politically correct submission here? Could you please explain your statement more fully? You can be specific and direct, can’t you?

You said, “Denominations are just that--divisions, bodies that have separated from the Body of Christ. They are lost, and we need not placate them with pretty words.”

Sandi, you are not living in denial, are you? The CoC does not have any written creed other than the Bible. There is no head-quarter on earth. Each local church is autonomous and is self-governing. There is no main spokesperson. Which Church of Christ do you represent? Do you fellowship the Christian Church denomination? Do you fellowship the Disciple of Christ denomination? Do you fellowship Max Lucado and his brand of the Church of Christ? Do you fellowship a non-musical church? Do you fellowship a musical and/ or musical instrumental church? Where do you draw your own line of fellowship? Where does the scripture draw the line? Would you please give references to support your explanation?

You said, “We are not a denomination!” What are we then? Are you aware of the history of the divisions within the Churches of Christ in the last 100 years? Jesus says, “By their fruit, you shall know them.” The fruit within the Churches of Christ is nothing less than constant “denominating” and “dividing,” even as we speak! There are those who would advocate division and will take delight in dividing any church in a New York minute right here at this web site over any disputable matter. Have you no eyes to read? Is this a fruit of the Spirit? What is their justification for that? So that they can preserve the truth as they see it? An ounce of truth, perhaps, but a ton of personal pride if the truth is fully known. Fear not. God will judge each person’s heart and will expose it in his own time schedule.

“They are lost, and we need not placate them with pretty words.” These are your own words. Where have you been? We could definitely use more mirrors in the house of God. Welcome to the kitchen, Sandi.

Chai Voraritskul 4/23/2002

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Weldon McKinney

Sandy is Correct!

April 24 2002, 6:16 AM 

Chai, I have read with interest many of your posts. But I did not see any anyer in Sandy's post, why did you?

Chai, brother, if salvation is merely directional, then it would appear that through growth and knowledge that we move closer to the eternal promise of heavenly salvation.

And if that is so, then there was no need for Jesus Christ on a cross. I mean, if salvation is directional--as I grow closer to God.

The Scriptures are absolutely clear on the matter of salvation--it is in Jesus Chirst and Him alone. It is not directional, it is positional! Salvation is absolutely in Jesus--that is positional. It is not a matter of a spiritual journey or growth--it is purly my relationship to Him.

Romans 8:1--"There is now no condemnation to those who are in Chirst Jesus".....Galatians 3:27--"For as many of you who you have been baptized into Christ, have put Him on."

Chai, there is salvation in no other name but His. The real church are the "called-out," those who have been buried with Him in a baptism like His and raised to walk in newness of like--those people shall share in His resurrection!

Salvation is purely positional, not directional. Sincerity does not save us, but only the blood of Jesus Christ. Those who are so called comprise His church, and it is not a denomination.

Forever, yours in the Service of the Master,


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literal seed


April 24 2002, 2:39 PM 


I agree that Jesus is the only way to salvation. Are we not predestined to be conformed to His image? Are we not a work in progress? No we can do no more than accept the gift...but it is directional...go into all the world!


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Weldon McKinney

Good Point, Wrong Location

April 26 2002, 6:15 AM 

Literal Seed, I could not agree more with your short statement. But, it does not seen to be in the same context as the previous discussions with Sandy and Chai.

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Chai Voraritskul

Salvation Is It Positional or Directional?

April 29 2002, 3:06 PM 

Weldon, if I sound angry in my writing, I repent, and I would like to apologize to Sandi here. When I communicate, I do try to be direct, specific, caring, and transparent, but not angry in any way, toward any one. The Lord is gracious. Life in him is good. How can we be otherwise? Sorry that I could not respond to your post as promptly as I would like, but here it is.

Concerning salvation, whether it is positional or directional, I really don’t remember where, when, or from whom I have heard or read this, but I have accepted it to be true and have stored in my mind that salvation is directional. I have never questioned it, until you challenged me. Having a chance to rethink this point through, I now see that this is not an “either or” situation, but it is “both.” I believe that you are right, in looking at our relationship to Christ, our salvation is positional. When we believe in Jesus, we repent of our sins. We confess with our mouth that he is God who became flesh, and he is our personal Savior who died on the cross, buried, and was resurrected. We were immersed under the watery grave, became united with him his death, for the forgiveness of our sins. We were raised from the watery grave to walk in the newness of life. We are saved and are given the Holy Spirit, as a gift and a seal of our salvation. We now are God’s children and joined heirs with Christ. We are also the called out, the church, the brides of Christ, fellow citizens of the Kingdom of the Lord. All of these designations and relationships with our Lord do not change until Jesus comes. You are right. They are all “positional.” But consider these:

Both John the Baptist and Jesus called people to “repent.” Jesus said to his apostles, “…and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his (Jesus’) name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47). What is “repentance?” This Greek word: “metanoia” means, “a change of heart or mind.” Before I put my faith in Jesus, my life was moving in the direction of the flesh and of the world. When I put my faith in Jesus, I changed direction. I turned around 180 degrees and started walking in his direction. I constantly move toward him. “Come near to God [directional] and he will come near to you” (James 4: 8).

Paul says, “Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above [directional], where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above [directional], not on earthly things” (Colossians 3: 1, 2). Here is an example of some one setting his heart, not on the things above but on earthly things.

A young man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good? Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as your self.” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth” (Matthew 19: 16-22). [This young man had his mind set on earthly things. He went away sad. Wrong direction!]

How do you follow someone? You walk in the same direction he walks. If he stops, you stop. If he turns, you turn. What if you decide to go in a different direction? You are not following him. Following Jesus is very intentional as well as directional. What if he walks in a certain direction, but you stop [that is, remain positional]? Unless you start walking again or running toward him [directional] to catch up, or he turns back to pick you up, you will be left behind.

Jesus says, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” (John 10: 27, 28). Imagine the chaos when the shepherd calls to his sheep to move on, some sheep just lay around, not moving. A few sheep run in circles. A few sheep casually prance off in different directions. No one can follow Jesus by merely walking in place, in circles, or in whatever direction he/she so chooses. There is one and only direction to go, following him. He will lead us [directional], if we will listen to his voice!

Paul says this, “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead [very directional], I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me [in what direction?] heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained” (Philippians 3: 12-16).

Yes, in our relationship to Christ, salvation is positional. In our daily walk, salvation is directional, in the direction of Christ and his righteousness, heavenward. No other direction will do. It is a pilgrimage, a lifelong journey. Our salvation is not either positional or directional, but both.

Weldon, thanks for challenging me to rethink my theology. I stand corrected.

Chai Voraritskul 4/29/2002.

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Weldon McKinney

Very Good

May 1 2002, 6:31 AM 

Chai, the only thing I would add to your excellent expose is Hebrews 12:1-6.

You have beautifully stated your thoughts and they are most graciously accepted.

At the outset of your text you mentioned anger. I am so very disappointed with the anger seen by some on this site. Simply put, anger would be a response given when someone is simply stumped or is unable to adequately communicate with others.

I am not angry at the recent choices made by RHCC elders. I love those men very much. But that love will not cloud my perfound disappointment over some recent decisions.

Simply put, they have made a doctrinal change--I have not and am not willing to make this change based on their research of I Timothy 3:11.

Chai, again simply stated, I believe that their direction is now away from the basic principles of the restoration movement to a movement embrased by many of the community churches--a movement to bring the unchurched into our doors--not to introduce them to God, but to a "church" that is more accepting to the ways of thw world and it lure and entertainment.

In my own personal directional journey to God and my call to discipleship, I am obviously going in another direction.

Love to you my brother.


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Joe McKnight

very good Sandi

April 24 2002, 6:40 PM 

Dear Sister Sandi:
Thank you for your post, it seem you too get upset with all this modern "feel good, pacifying, baby's milk teaching". My reference of "church of Christers" is a true reference of the christians that are associated with the body of Christ that believes in accordances to a centralized coordinated standards of believes that are contrary to the Word. Yes Chai, as I see it and read it, and the Holy Spirit shows it to me.
A little history: I'm 46, was born third generation (if not more) coC. About 3 years ago God got very active in my life showing me the lies I accepted and was taught in the coC. I finally had to throw it all out so the Holy Spirit could have new ground to work with. After 3 years of trails and test (which I'm still in school) I can truly recomend the process to any true lover of the truth. The truth is marvelous

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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