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James Kisner

The Only Ones

August 22 2002, 11:40 AM 

This sounds like the old line most church of Christ folks used to believe -i.e. that we are the only ones going to heaven. What utter rubbish!

Jesus told his disciples when they wanted to stop people from healing and ministering in his name that he had other sheep that were not "of this fold." How tragic that we skip over these words (written in red!) and choose to believe that we are the only children of God in any town. That smacks of sectarianism through and through. The fact of the matter is this: the only one that I can know absolutely, 100%, is saved, is the person I see in the mirror. My salvation I can be (and am 100%) certain of, based solely on the grace of God through Jesus. Every one else must stand or fall before his/her own master (God, of course). To go any further in passing judgement is to assume the throne of God, who, I might add, will allow into heaven anyone he chooses, regardless of what the Church of Christ teaches. His plan of salvation as revealed in the Word of God is the only hope for the world that I know about. Yet, even that does not tie God's hand.

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Jeff Day

I am ashamed

August 22 2002, 10:40 PM 

It is with great sadness that I read your post. We ARE a denomination in the sense that we have used the way WE interpret scripture to "beat people over the head" and say we are the only ones who interpret scripture correctly. We have separated ourselves from the body of christ in the process.

In John 17 Jesus prays that ALL of those that BELIEVE in Him shall be ONE. Jesus is the common denominator here, not what we do. Jesus should be who we believe in and not a list of things we "check off" to make sure we are "doing it the right way".

And the comment you make about about our church being the one named in the Bible is absurd. There were no Church of Christs until the late 1800s. What about all the people from AD 100 until now? Are they all lost because they did not call themselves "Church of Christ" or have the name out in front of their building.


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Re: I am ashamed

September 10 2002, 9:42 AM 

You should be!!

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Jeff Day

And your point is...

September 13 2002, 3:44 PM 

I should be......what?

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Kenneth Sublett

You are NOT ashamed: you cannot blush.

September 17 2002, 10:58 AM 

Ken notes: Jeff, it is DAY, time to wake up and smell the garbage!

Jeff wrote: In John 17 Jesus prays that ALL of those that BELIEVE in Him shall be ONE. Jesus is the common denominator here, not what we do. Jesus should be who we believe in and not a list of things we "check off" to make sure we are "doing it the right way"

Ken responds: Since Jesus is not egotistical, HE said that the COMMON DENOMINATOR was the WORD by which He gives us some DIRECT COMMANDS which we CHECK OFF or WE ARE NOT remotely connected to Jesus: Accepting His WORD as Spirit and Life was HIS check-off even as HIS speaking ONLY what He heard from the FATHER was his check off TEST of being a SON. That is why Paul gave a CHECK OFF between the WINESKIN worship and SPEAKING "that which is written" (Rom 15), "the Spirit" (Eph 5) or the WORD of Christ (Col 3). If you singy-clappy TWILA PARIS then Twila is your ZOE or goddess gaining victory over little brother, JESUS.

Therefore, it is using Jeff's CHECK OFF LIST or that of Jesus which He taught and inspired in the Bible. Jeff's check off list includes Pagan Musical Worship teams violating examples and direct commands, and FAITH ONLY. Therefore, Jeff does not represent the CHURCH OF CHRIST even though his e-mail is from BROADWAY: Jeff, churches of Christ subscribe to the NARROW WAY.

In the parable of the soils and sowers, Jesus defines the birds or ravens sent to pluck up good seed as fast as they are planted. Seed-plucking birds are defined as DEMONS even as Jesus said that those WHO SPEAK ON THEIR OWN are children of their father, THE DEVIL.

Ole Jeffy has the magical power to swoop in, pick up the GOOD seed, altar its DNA and sow it all around the world. Jeff is from BROADWAY so no wonder he is on the TEAM. So was Judas: the Judas bag was "for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments," Psalm 41 prophesied that they would try to DEFEAT Jesus with music and all of the ancient teams were naked perverts. Judas was a Sicarri: dagger people. They got in BIG CROWDS, stuck the daggar into people and then screamed: "Murder, foul murder, catch the murderer." So, Jeffy, you guys DISCORD with music and church murder and then blame the victim for bleeding.

Well, Jeff, someone said that "a half truth is a whole lie" and I want to show you how the seed pickers work. Here is what the TRUTH SOWER planted:

---"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, KEEP through THINE OWN NAME those whom thou hast GIVEN ME, THAT they may be one, as WE ARE. John 17:11

His own name is not Father, Son and Holy Spirit or "COMMUNITY": His NAME is Jehovah- Saved or Joshua or Jesus Christ. If they peal the name and office of Jesus off the church sign you can be sure that they have been MARKED. His name is ON THE LIST I keep.

Jesus said some more which didn't even get Jeff's tail feathers wet as he swoops into those "faith" passages and doesn't touch BAPTISM. The reason for UNITY, Jeffy, and the reason it is so utterly EVIL for your teams to SOW DISCORD --but so utterly consistent that a criminal cannot keep from bragging about his crime--is so the WORDS of Jesus are spoken. HIS LIST, not a CHARISMATIC BAPTIST'S LIST. They should buy their own buildings.

The version you use is a perversion: better get the WORD if you have any interest.

Therefore, when the birds pretending to be from paradise come sweeping in to SOW DISCORD and PICK UP THE TRUTH Jesus would say that Satan PLANTS THEM. Here is the reason for UNITY based on HIS Word and not some fabricated "Little Jesus meek and mild / Sing and dance, make me smile."

---"That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art IN ME, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Jn.17:21

So, Jeff, the plant of discord proves that GOD didn't send the sowers of discord. HERE IS THE TEST OF SEED SOWERS. Jeff, go to your PLUCKED OUT verse 11 and hang a left:

Jesus validated his role as SON based on His repeating ONLY what the FATHER said to warn of future ZWINGLIANS:

---"Now they have KNOWN that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are OF THEE. John 17:7

---"For I have given unto them THE WORDS which THOU gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. John 17:8

Rubel Shelly and YOUR CO-PARTNERS claims that THAT TRUTH has all been sifted through philosophy and John's OWN PERSONAL AGENDA. Therefore, Jeff is NOT speaking from the OLD BIBLE the churches of Christ still use.

Now, hang a right: (It is DAY, the night is far spent, WAKE UP) and learn why there are so many HATE MONGERS trying to destroy peacable churches of Christ:

---"I have given them THY WORD; and the world hath HATED them, because they are NOT of the world, even as I am not of the world. John 17:14

---"Sanctify them through thy TRUTH: thy WORD is truth. John 17:17

Jeff, don't believe the PLUNKET dogma that you have been BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. Jesus said "My words are Spirit and Life" (John 6:63)

---"And if any man hear my WORDS, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:47

---"He that rejecteth ME, and receiveth not my WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: the WORDS that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48

BY DEFINITION, A DENOMINATION IS HIGH CHURCH WITH THE AUTHORITY TO UPDATE the Words of Jesus. Or in the dogma of your friend and his, Rubel Shelly "begin to hear audibly those surplus words Jesus spoke but John didn't have space to write in the Bible."

The CORE command of Jesus was to go and MAKE DISCIPLES (not worship teams) by BAPTIZING them. Failure to be baptized by John meant that "they rejected the counsel of God for their lives." Therefore, REPUDIATING baptism rejects the WORDS of Jesus and his WORD HAS GOTCHA, JEFF.

As I have tried to tell Jeff, Baptist baptism is LATTER DAY, c. 1500 by Zwingli and is based SOLELY on original sin and predestination. No wonder, then, that the mega-churches all of which use weasel words to describe baptism in their creed are CALVINISTIC: churches of Christ "infiltrated and diverted" by professional Baptists posing as members of the Lord's Church. Believer's baptism is quite identical to PAGAN BAPTISM and repudiates grace by insisting that people have to go through LAW and then have Jesus die for them as a PERSONAL SAVIOR just as in the Eucharist, Mass or the neo-mass in mega-churches of Christ.

Therefore, Baptists are a DENOMINATION based on the MEANING OF WORDS in that they have a central organization just as do the Disciples and many christian churches. It is less than TRUTHFULNESS to define as a denomination a group which HAS NO CENTRAL HEADQUARTERS (Jubilee tried), no PRESIDENT, no yearly doctrine-determining politics, no Pastors sent out from headquarters, no denominational Sunday School board (Sweet, etc uses their material) and no central ownership of church property. The Jubilee, Willow Creek, Saddle Back Purpose Driven Cults do seek to be a DENOMINATION or a COMMERCIAL CORPORATION. Criminals cannot keep their mouth shut so they even confess that "our purpose is to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT." Then Jeffy applauds those who steal church houses of widows to make them part of a denomination.

CONCLUSION: it is a BLATANT LIE to define churches of Christ as a denomination and can only be done so by people using the HEGLIAN (Hitler, Machiavelli, etc) Dialectic (communism and therefore Community Church) to throw you into SCHIZOPHRENIA so that THEY can then impose their new and improved version from hell: Music Teams originated by Satan USING the young, restless and pervertable to seduce the Word-oriented disciples of Jesus.

Taking verses out of context is making Lord Jesus Christ into a Liar. I simply do not believe that the PREACHERY method of putting on blinders, sucking out a truth and making it into a lie is ACCIDENTAL. The church of Christ is almost uniquely faithful to the Biblical and pre ZWINGLIN, or pre-BAPTIST pagan baptism. Therefore, it is no surprise that the SEED PLUCKERS are so desperate to SIFT churches of Christ of this CORE TEACHING of Jesus Christ. Don't ever believe that BIG and POPULAR is a sign of CHRISTIAN. Jesus spoke to the MULTITUDES only in parables to HIDE the TRUE SEED from the SEED PLUCKERS who would turn it into a book or CD.

Kenneth Sublett

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Does Kenneth Subblett = God?

March 2 2004, 11:52 AM 

Mr. Subblett,

With all due respect, as I have read over a number of postings at this website, I find your approach anything BUT Christ-like...and we wonder why so many people think negatively of the Church of Christ.

You do a disservice to our Lord by sharing your beliefs in such a arrogant, finger-pointing manner. YOU are the one who should be ashamed.

If any non-believer happened upon any of your postings, I feel sure there is nothing in any of your words that would encourage them to come to know our Lord.

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Joe McKnight

The New Creature

September 15 2002, 5:18 AM 

Sorry it took so long to teach on the New Creature that we (the follower of Christ) are.

To understand what a NC is what a creature is. When God created the time and the universe He gave Adam dominion over all of it. Adam was to be alive today, being the Prince over all the creature of this creation, and his seed (that would be us: mankind). Satan stole that dominion and now is the Prince of this world. When you are born into this world you are of the seed of Adam, thus Satan has authority over you. You are doomed to hell, seperated from God. Humans need away by to God, a payment for sin, but Satan has authority over all things in the creation, thus nothing in the creation would work for our payment. We needed a New Creature to make our payment with. Jesus did not have a earthly father, He was not born of man thus He was not born of the seed of Adam. Jesus was a New Creature, and Satan did not have dominion over Him.
Well, that all great and good for Jesus, but what about us humans? We become New Creatures as the Bride of Christ. Get it? The wife inherits the things of her Husband, thus we are the children of God because Jesus was. We now are a New Creature because our Husband is.

One small footnote here. We are not His Bride yet, we are His Betroth wife. The Jewish marriage process is a very good type to study to help you see and understand all this. We become His Bride after the marriage supper.
Thank you LORD!

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

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once saved always saved

June 11 2005, 1:30 PM 

Choose one of the two statements below then make your case.

1.Eternal security.

2. eternal in-security

Now which one would you rather have? The legalist never teach about God's power to keep us saved. They teach that it is easier to get saved than it is to stay saved. The only security they could possibly have is to have drown while being baptized.
According to them, once God saves us the burden to stay saved shifts to the believer. This is a works for salvation doctrine.

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Re: once saved always saved

June 11 2005, 9:20 PM 


There you go again. Making statements that are so clearly wrong. Do you read the same Bible as everyone else?

So, explain why Jesus discussed over and over again the need to stay wary and alert? The need to obey God's commands? Explain why Jesus said that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven? Or why the path is narrow and few will find it.

Or hey, why he discusses lost sheep, plants with weak roots, bad fruit, etc.? Better yet, what about his "not knowing" those who taught in his name?

Yep, that's legalist talk. To think that we actually expect to bear some responsibility for our own souls. That our behavior and actions are important to God. That we believe God is a jealous God and wants us to do his Will. What a concept!

Oh wait, let's be like you and give all the responsibility to God. So, if I don't make it it will be his fault, right? Of course, if I believe as you do I don't have to read the Bible - the HS's doing it all for me anyway! Wow, little ole me. Just God's love and mercy. Wow, I wonder why He wasted all His time inspiring those men to right all that needless stuff down? Guess He was bored that day.

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once saved always saved

June 12 2005, 8:32 PM 

If my statements are so clearly wrong, why is it that the legalist cofc camps, Mormans Jehovah's witness sabbath keepers and many cults believe they are the only ones saved? Who do you believe?

Actually, the doctrine of grace is recieved by most christians. Oh, I almost forgot you probably believe that Richland Hills cofc is lost also. You live in a small little world my friend.

No where in any of my post have I said the things you accuse me of. I certainally believe in obedience and responsibility, the problem is we cannot depend on ourselfs for our salvation.

Maybe you never struggle with sin, maybe you have everything in your life totally under control. Maybe you can show us the nail prints in your hands.

Jesus concured sin, death hell and the grave for the rest of us, because we admit we are imperfect and need a saviour, not only to be saved but to stay saved.

This is the truth. "for all have sinned and fall short
of the glory of God," Romans 3:23

Not one of us can do a work or deed to save ourselves.

"For by grace you have been saved
through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works,
lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Each of us as sinners deserves death and separation from holy God..

"For the wages of sin is death,"
Romans 6:23

Holy God must punish sin.

The Good News is that
God has provided for the
forgiveness of our sins.

Holy and perfect God requires
a holy and perfect sacrifice for sin.

Only God could provide
a holy and perfect sacrifice and
only God could provide the
bridge (the way) that allows
sinful man to be with holy God.

Jesus Christ is God and became man.

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God." John 1:1

"And the Word became flesh
and dwelt among us," John 1:14

Jesus Christ appeared in the flesh and became the sacrifice for our sins.

"....He has appeared to put away sin
by the sacrifice of Himself. And as
it is appointed for men to die once,
but after this the judgment, so Christ
was offered once to bear the sins of many...."
Hebrews 9:26, 27, 28

I see no where which says man can save himself.

God gives His children wonderful
promises that He will never break!

- God will not change His mind.

"Jesus Christ is the same
yesterday, today, and forever."
Hebrews 13:8

- God will not leave you.

....For He Himself has said,
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."
Hebrews 13:5

- God saves once and forever. Do you believe he will save anyone two, three or more times? We are either saved or we are still in lost condition.

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life,
nor angels nor principalities nor powers,
nor things present nor things to come,
nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing,
shall be able to separate us from the love of God
which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39

These scriptures may not be in your bible. Some people will only read the KJV, but the same message is in there also. Some people do not believe in God's power to save or to keep us saved, however I do! I certainally do not believe in eternal in-security for the true believer.

Would the five step plan with all the legal speak make this easier for you to accept?

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Re: once saved always saved

June 14 2005, 7:13 PM 


As I've said now on several postings...Please, please study the Bible more before you begin to debate topics.

As usual, you avoided my question about being lost. Why? Because if you studied the Bible it would lead you to only one conclusion. A Christian can be lost. That our actions and attitudes are important and we bare the responsibility of our own soul.

You would also know that the men on this website are NOT doing anything different than what Paul and John did. Read ALL of the scriptures. Paul admonished many Christians for not following the Truth and causing division. You would also know that if a Christian fails to stand up for the Truth and admonish false teachers, they are held accountable by God.

Instead, you berate and make fun of them. How sad. Then you use a few verses to point out some points that have nothing to do with the issues at hand. No one has stated on this site that we are not to love each other. No one has said that God didn't grant mercy on us if we chose to obey him and be baptized. No one has argued against the verses you mention. They are not even the reason for this site. What is wrong is a Church that basis its teachings on only the "good feeling" verses and NOT ALL of the verses - even those that present information on Christian behavior, attitude, commandments.

But when someone actually lists all the verses that are direclty against what Richland is now teaching, you go bonkers. You can't discredit the points scripturally because they are on the money - so that leaves the personal attacks. Can't you see what you are doing? Can't you see that you are being led off the path and away from the Truth?

Go ahead and live by 1/2 the Truth. But be aware that on judgement day, Jesus is going to ask why you dismissed parts of God's Truth. He's going to want to know why you thought you knew better than him. He's also going to want to know why a big, exciting, entertaining, love only congregation was set up when he wanted the exact opposite and stated so quite plainly for all to read. What will you tell Him? That you were smarter than the 1st Christians and just new he didn't mean what he told them should apply to you? That your needs were more important than His needs?

Don't forgot that God is a jealous God. He does not like to be thwarted and He does not like his commandments to be ignored. Just because He loves us and has mercy on us does not mean he lets us get by with disobeying Him. Having read your posts, you are ignoring quite a few of them.

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Half truth huh?

June 15 2005, 11:58 AM 

PPB Writes:
Go ahead and live by 1/2 the Truth. But be aware that on judgement day, Jesus is going to ask why you dismissed parts of God's Truth. He's going to want to know why you thought you knew better than him.

real-life replies:
Have you considered this; Matthew 7:1-3 1Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

PPB writes:
He's also going to want to know why a big, exciting, entertaining, love only congregation was set up when he wanted the exact opposite and stated so quite plainly for all to read. What will you tell Him? That you were smarter than the 1st Christians and just new he didn't mean what he told them should apply to you? That your needs were more important than His needs?

Real-life replies:
The pharasis did not want to accept the new life Jesus was offering, they wanted to keep their comfortable self-righteous position. Today's legalist camp does not resemble the early church, love for the reality of God has been replaced by his shadow. God has no needs, he has love and compassion, which he freely gives. Try some, it's wonderful.

PPB writes:
Don't forgot that God is a jealous God. He does not like to be thwarted and He does not like his commandments to be ignored. Just because He loves us and has mercy on us does not mean he lets us get by with disobeying Him. Having read your posts, you are ignoring quite a few of them.

Real-life replies:
True God is Jealous, but he cannot be twarted. When is the last time you have sinned, have you been forgiven yet. Did you do a rolling stop at a stop sign lately, have you been kind to the old lady next door, have you done all things you could do to help the needy. Do you have a big savings account, or drive a new car. There are thousands of ways we can sin every day and we usually ignore them. What is the greatest of sins? Are you sure if you die this moment you will be saved? According to your position, you can never be sure, you can only hope so. Which is the greatest commandment and do you keep it flawlessly? Where is the grace of God in your life, does it depend on your performance?

James 2:10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.... This is refering to the OT laws, maybe you are no longer under those laws, but what about the greatest commandment? If we are free from sin it is because of the righteousness of Jesus, not our own. Why then do you want to create a new covenant set of laws or rules and bind them to yourself and others, none of us can completely keep them, no matter how hard we try.

It is sin that seperates us from our Holy God. If the blood of Jesus has been applied to the door post of our hearts, don't you think we should be more confident in the power of God than our power to live and be perfectly obedient. Man, I gotta tell you, I want to be right before God, I want to obey all his commands, I want to understand all his words, I want very much to do the right thing, I want to be found doing the Fathers business, most of all I want to have his mercy, because that is my only hope, I do not have the power to keep myself saved. We are completely dependent on him for our next breath, go ahead, breath in deeply, for it is God who gives us life...Peace and blessings to you...

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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