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Some Follow up of Richland: Lipscomb University approves of "Hell and Mister Fudge."

November 5 2002 at 5:54 AM
ConcernedMembers 
from IP address 65.80.188.10



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.222.189 on Aug 27, 2014 4:48 PM


 
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AuthorReply
J.E. CHOATE

65.80.188.10

Re: MID-WEEK ALERT

November 6 2002, 8:52 AM 

To Concerned members:
I have read with heightened interest the 25 theses addressed to the Richland Church of Christ. The statement are clear and well thought. David Lipscomb wrote in the first years of the 20th century that division will come to churches of Christ, and he added when divisions come let it be along Bible lines. The first divisions were clearly marked along a multiple dividing line: ORGANIZED MISSIONARY SOCIETIES AND ORGANIZED LOCAL, STATE, AND NATIONAL CONVENTIONS; and the invasion of liberal theology into the colleges and churches popularly known as MODERNISM until the 1950s.

The churches of Christ are again divided as wide as that gulf Jesus talked about. Once again there are multiple dividing lines which separate the churches, and the gulf keeps widening: These dividing lines are clearly marked: POST MODERN THEOLOGY WHERE INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC, YOU NAME IT, AND IT GOES CHURCH GROWTH MODELS SUCH AS WILLOW CREEK; and
others of the "theater of the weird and absurd, e.g., THE THIRD WAVE, KANSAS CITY PROPHETS, and the VINEYARD CHURCHES.

This one is the most important-they say that they are Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement denomination. They have names themselves--SO BE IT!

There is no need to lecture, chide, or moralize with these "know-it-all" brethren. Just leave them, get them out of your churches, don't invite them whatever the disguise. They are after your memberships, and church assets. Shake the dust off your feet and let them be where they choose to be.

Do what David Lipscomb and those around him did. Mark these church dividers. Draw up a census, and separate the sheep from the goats. Don't tear up the wheal to get the tares. Pull out the tares when they show fully what they are. Yes division among the churches is here, and the members of the Biblical churches of Christ have not been the cause in any respect.

Respectfully submitted,

J. E. Choate

 
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Alvin Jennings

163.179.175.91

Thank you

November 14 2002, 9:38 PM 

Brother Choate, it is refreshing to see your response to the 25 Theses. Your thinking is clear, as contrasted to some other responses that do little more than cloud the issues and take up space. As one of the 19 signers of the 25 Theses (and coordinator of it), again I would remind that the purpose was to invite discusson and study with the church leaders so as to come to truth together.

I am informed that the entire document has been read to at least one church assembly, and printed copies have been offered to many who requested it. Some are writing and/or calling and offering to have their names added to the 19 if it could be done somehow. Of course October 31st finalized that original document, but there are other ways to rally to the truths of it.

My heart bleeds to see the sad effects from breaking with the old paths. Again, I thank you and ask you as a righteous man to pray, for we are promised it will avail much. I am your friend and brother, Alvin Jennings

 
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Kenneth Sublett

63.84.81.89

Thank You

November 15 2002, 10:10 AM 

I read you loud and clear, brother.

But. We thought that you invited discussion?

I agree that there is total confusion about the MUSIC as WORSHIP issue in the Bible beginning with the sermonizing view which ignores the APPROVED EXAMPLE of Jesus and the direct command of Paul that the RESOURCE for the assembly is NOT "private interpretation of further expounding" but "that which IS WRITTEN, the Spirit of Christ or the Word of Christ" which is Spirit and Life.

We ARE confused that Paul' direct command for the ONE ANOTHER teaching is called TEACHING OR PREACHING and not SANGING FANNY CROSBY. But, the watching world is catching on outside of the influence of Hollywood, Dollywood, Grand Ole Opry and the Vinyard lady riding music for the sexual pleasure and leaving people "confused."

We need to understand that the SCHOLARLY view coming out of Lipscomb's new DOCTOR OF THE LAW concerning Amos 5,6,8 and Isaiah 5 is that "THERE'S NOTHING WRONG" with their worship: they just had a bad mental attitude. And I'll bet that 100% of the "gospel preachers" have that false doctrine in a "sermon outline" or a "gospel tract." The fact is that musical idolatry at Mount Sinai left Israel sentenced to worship the starry host done to perfection according to Amos and leaving the Word- Seekers just confused, captive and dead.

It is also confusing when you try to tell people that the GOPHER WOOD and ADAB AND ABIHU is a LEGALISTIC proof against musical instruments. Why do that when THAT OLDEN BIBLE (if it don't say nothing to me it don't say nothing: an elder) condemnes both SINGING and INSTRUMENTS as a non-spiritual activity and ALWAYS associates it with telling God: "We will not listen to your words." That "outdated" Jew's Bible fairly exudes anti-musical warnings from beginning to end.

Sure the world has been confused but the haze is clearing up and the FRESH WINDS are now blowing but NOT from pulpits and I am sure that is threatening. Sure exposing Biblical concepts which have escaped Restoration history is confusing. But the elders and false preachers will just laugh in your face if you hand them a tract on Gopher Wood and so they should.

Leave the TARES alone if you wish but we are talking about the WOLVES in elder's skins and virtually Biblically illiterate preachers confiscating churches of Christ and turning them into Christian churches. Some of them even laugh about Infiltrating and Diverting. Someone left the flock naked so that they could not recognize the SCAM or did not have the spiritual courage to stop the "little baby steps" learned from Hegel, Hitler and Machiavelli.

It is a fact that once you have been seduced by the charismatic music (with or without instruments) you are never going to kick the tare addiction. But, why preach TOLERANCE for those who are still SOWING serpent's seed into your garden?

There has to be some big time LEARNING in the pulpits and tract racks for leaving the Body of Christ NAKED of truth by violating the APPROVED EXAMPLE of Jesus firing the Doctors of the Law and "tossing out 'more or less violently' the 'musical worship team' trying to appease the demon of the 'dead' girl."

And there has to be some WHOLESALE repenting for turning the direct command of Paul to PREACH OR TEACH the inspired Word (that which is written) into MUSIC and taking the first GIANT STEP by turning church as "a school of the Bible" or in the words of Thomas Campbell "A school of Christ" into a pagan worship center gulping down the New Style Praise Song books. That is an APOSTASY from everything Jesus modelled, Paul's direct command, most early church history, the practice of many churches such as the Reformeds and the intellectual opinion of the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia.

Aargh! Here comes some "you are anti-christ" mails from preachers.

Ken Sublett.

 
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J. A. Davis

65.65.8.111

About the 25 Theses

November 21 2002, 3:28 PM 

Dear Alvin,

I didn’t know of your posting of the 25 Theses until my good brother Weldon McKinney and I were lunching together and he told me about it. Upon examining the document, I was concerned for several reasons. The whole tenor of the document seems to be one that will not heal the wounds at church; rather, it seems to me, it will only further exacerbate the situation and be a cause of contention and further hurt to the body of Christ at Richland Hills. I do not think that is what you wish to happen, but I think that will be the result. In the few times that we have been with each other, I have come to regard you as one who has a great desire to win the lost to Jesus. I consider you to have a good heart, and know that you have extended time and treasure to get some things done while you were a member at Richland Hills. The making of the Garden of Prayer is a testimony to that. But to publicly post the 25 Theses as you have with all the accusations contained therein will only take away from the good that you have done.

To state, as you have, that “to appoint both men and women without distinction as ‘special servants’ is without Scripture warrant” is to ignore that there are very good arguments for recognizing that the New Testament church had women deacons. (See my posting of the discussion that I had with Louis Rushmore concerning this.) I know that we will probably never agree on the New Testament evidence, but can’t you admit that there is a possibility that you might be wrong on this subject? I know that it is possible for me to be wrong about this, for I have changed what I previously thought about the subject of women deacons – and I know that I do not have all the answers. Weldon and I have discussed this a few times, and I doubt that either of us will change the other’s mind. But to divide a church over something like this is wrong. I know that you will probably say that it is the elders who are doing such by appointing women as “special servants.” But I think it was not a change of practice, it was only a change of nomenclature. Women were doing the work of “deacons” but they weren’t called “deacons.” And I would hold that every church of Christ that I know of has such women, for the church could not function without them. We have secretaries, Sunday school teachers and supervisors, those who serve in “benevolence” areas, etc. No church is without these women who serve as special servants.

You also state:

"5. We call on you to repent of changing the charter written in 1967 by the original founding elders. You removed, among other things, without the knowledge and consent of the congregation, this concise restrictive clause: "No mechanical instrument of any kind whatsoever shall ever be used in connection with the song service or worship or work to be carried on or conducted by said congregation or religious body". You have dishonored those righteous men and women who made every effort within their power to safeguard future generations from this specific departure from the Bible pattern for New Testament worship. They were aware of the divisive nature of this particular innovation and therefore made specific mention of it in their founding document. "

This, I think, is somewhat misleading. While it is true that the specific clause was removed, it was done in the context of a thorough revision of the charter to bring it into compliance with state and federal laws concerning non-profit organizations. There were a lot of changes and not just with regard to that particular clause. You also failed to note that this particular clause was added (Article 5, Section 6) “A Church of Christ as used in this Article Five is a group or body of two or more believer in Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ, the Son of God, born of a virgin, raised from the dead, and now seated at the right hand of God ruling and reigning over His kingdom, the Church; the members of which group or body have been immersed in water into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit for the remission of sins. Each such body of believers constitutes a completely autonomous Church of Christ, having no earthly head or headquarters; who believe in the verbal inspiration of the Bible and the miracles recorded therein; to assemble on the first day of every week to honor God and spiritually edify each other by observing the Lord’s Supper; by studying the Bible, by contributing; by praying to God, and by singing songs of praise and edification without the use of mechanical instruments.” It seems obvious to me that the elders of the 1994 revision of the charter were not trying to make it easier to use the instrument in worship.

You indicate that this revision dishonors the “original founding elders” of the 1967 charter. Of the six elders in the 1967 charter, all but two are dead. Of the six, two were my family: my father, and my father-in-law. I cannot claim to speak for all of the elders of the 1967 charter, but I did know them all and the kind of men they were. I think they would be more concerned with those who sow discord among the brethren than the revision of the charter. I do know that when I asked my father about this, he said that he did not feel “dishonored” by what the elders did in 1994.

My roots go deep in the Richland Hills Church of Christ. As a child I met in the Glenview Elementary School with the church before we even had a building to call our own. It has grown through the years because God has given it leaders who were in love with Him. They weren’t perfect; they made mistakes. They did not always agree among themselves, but they were unified in their approach to leading the family at Richland Hills. I think that is what has made it a special place – it has been family. It has accepted people from all over who have been hurting in many different ways, and in it they have found a place to serve God. At Richland Hills we probably have had a wider spectrum of beliefs, practices, and socio-economic backgrounds than any other church of Christ that I know of. What has kept us together has been our love for God and for each other. That’s why we can have people who disagree on so many different things still remain in the one body. We show the world that we love God by loving each other and not insisting on our own way. Alvin, I don’t agree with everything that occurs at Richland Hills. If I were in charge I’m sure that things would be more traditional. (If I were in charge the church would probably end up much smaller :)) I doubt that there is a church anywhere that I would completely endorse its practice and teaching. I suspect that with your even wider experience you could say the same. But I love Richland Hills. I love it with all of its failings, warts and all. It is a great church. But if the time came when the elders thought that what I was teaching or doing was going to be disruptive and harmful to the church, I would not cause trouble, even if I were convinced that I was right and they were wrong. It’s more important to maintain unity than convince a brother that his viewpoint is wrong (Rom. 14). If, for some reason, I could no longer in good conscience continue there I would quietly leave and not cause trouble.

I pray, Alvin, that you will re-examine what you are doing.

In Christian Love,
J. A. Davis

 
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Bob Hogue

12.35.45.195

Good Reply

January 20 2003, 10:45 AM 

J.A.,
This was a good reply and what the Lord prayed for
in his last recorded prayer before he died for us-That
we be one so the world would know we were his disciples.I too attended Richland Hills coC when you
and I were in school together and it breaks my heart to
see this strife.If you get a chance E-mail me and we can catch up on old times!baron@yahoo.com Bon Hogue

 
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J. Wayne Weaver

12.215.224.57

Richland Hills Church

January 18 2006, 3:50 PM 

J. A. Davis,
God bless you and all your family... both spiritual and earthly! I remember with great love the gifts of friendship and grace that flowed from the family at RHCC when we attended there in the 80-early 90s. The openness of the classes and the full discussions we had as we all attempted to walk with our Lord. Mary and I pray for the healing of the Family there.
In God's love we remain just Wayne and Mary

 
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C.G.

205.188.209.134

What is the problem?

March 6 2003, 6:58 PM 

I am not a member at Richland Hills but I heard about
this 25 thesis posted to the door and I was interested
to see what it was all about. It seems looking from
the outside that someone in your group of "concerned
members" has some kind of personal grudge or control
issue. And where is the brotherly love here. All I
see is your group trying to bash this congregation for
no reason that I can read. And what about people out
there reading this who are lost, what will they think
of the church? They will not want to come. Why must
you be so viscious to make a point and I lost the point
early on. Woman have always been servants in the church,
duh!!!! Whether we are called special servants or
whatever, the only name that matters is Christian. And
about the music thing, they used music in early church,
and I thought worship was to be joyous! And all your
bashing about Billy Graham is so uncalled for. He is
a true servant of the Lord and has devoted all his life
to sharing the gospel message. What are you doing for
the kingdom except causing division? How many people
are you sharing the gospel with? Not many since it is
obvious you are all spending your time bashing brothers
and sisters who are only using all means available to
bring the lost in to hear the saving message. It is
easy to criticize when you don't want to actually work
for the kingdom isn't it? Grow up and share the gosel
and stop trying to tear the church down!!!!

 
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Kenneth Sublett

63.84.81.114

What is the problem?

March 7 2003, 6:13 PM 

C.G.: whatever, the only name that matters is Christian.

Me: What about a MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM NAMED Jezebel? Is that ok? No.

Then how about one named HALAL which means to SHINE, BOAST, MAKE SELF VILE as the source of the word LUCIFER? How about one named ZOE after "the Beast and the female instructing principle"?

How about taking the name CHRIST off the church and adding COMMUNITY? Or how about naming your child Fido?
===================================================

C.G.: And about the music thing, they used music in early church, and I thought worship was to be joyous!

ME: That is what the LIERS FOR DOLLARS have told you but Jesus said that "Doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge." He fired them but they are digging their way out of the earth.

The word "MUSIC" in Greek is SYMPHONIA and speaks of secular affairs with singing, playing, dancing, drinking much like the RISING UP TO PLAY at Mount Sinai which was MUSICAL IDOLATRY.

The word MELODY or PSALLO is not a musical term: it speaks of the warrior bow twangers who could melt your heart or drive you into panic. It derives from "grinding you into a fine powder" like the SOP Jesus fed Judas which caused him to SCOOT.

The word MUSIC is never used of the worship of God's people any time any place under any circumstances. People who LIE about that are agents of an alien power.

The Bible, the Book of Enoch and my 36 collected ancient resources show that Lucifer (Zoe) was a MUSICAL ENCHANTER who caused the fallen angels. He was in the garden of Eden. SHE will be the end-time Bablon whore who was KIRKE who attached her name to CHURCH in John's arena.

The MUSIC was not called such in the slaughter of thousands of animals as a CURSE for the idolatry at Mount Sinai. They made a loud crashing noise and if you could get the sight and sound and SMELL of this slaughter pen you could understand why the priests NEEDED DIVERSION from the horrors.

This SLAUGHTER represented their repudiation of the Spirit of Christ as their king, prince and priest.

Psalm 41 predicts that Judas would try this on Jesus and it was fulfilled when the WARRIOR MUSICIANS mocked Jesus: they "piped" trying to pervert Jesus into the Dionysus song and dance.

However, these SOUNDERS service was "HARD BONDAGE" and they did not WORSHIP. They served in the COURTS and not in the Holy Place. The Holy Place had its sanctity protected by a BODY so that no SINGER OR MUSICIAN could ever enter into the Holy Place as a type of the church or body of Christ.

The only one who MET God was the high priest once a year in the Most Holy Place. The people were IN EXILE from the presence of God. Only BELIEVERS now come boldly before the Throne of God where we worship in the PLACE of the human spirit. No musicians dare try to enter.

There were many INNOVATIONS by both Pharisees and Sadducees and Jesus REPUDIATES each and every one. For instance, it was pagan and polluted superstition which made the MUSICAL MOURING TEAMS believe that they could approach the "gods" on behald of the dead girl or appease the spirit of the dead. Jesus politely invited them outside, they MOCKED HIM something like "speaking in tongues" and they were CAST OUT "more or less violently." The word defines how one CAST OUT DUNG. Just like the carcass and dung was CAST out of the temple area.

No church had any notion of MUSIC as worship because:

1. The Jews had grown up in the Synagogue (never in the temple proper) and understood that it was A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. There was never any PRAISE SERVICE in the Synagogue.

2. The Gentiles understood the eternal connection between MUSIC in the pagan temples, adultery and perverted sexuality.

It was not until the fourth century that DIVISION was caused by introducing "music" which was simply chanting the INSPIRED BIBLICAL TEXT rather than obeying Paul and SPEAKING or PREACHING one to another.

All of the church historians associate MUSIC with Satan and repudiate it absolutely. The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia agrees.

The founders of denominations repudiated music as worship.

MUSIC has been introduced into the church as a planned, deliberate effort to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT churches of Christ into being Christian churches. Perhaps 100% of them were aspiring MUSICIANS riding the widows to bootstrap themselve up into fame and fortune. Or they were BOOK PEDDLERS or wannabes.

All of this is in fulfillment of Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon's releasing the LOCUSTS. Apollo's MUSES were turned into LOCUSTS in the ancient stories. Throughout the classics the locust or grasshoppers are MUSICAL PERFORMERS who LULL people into a deep sleep. The MUSES are grouped with INSTRUMENTALISTS in Revelation 18 as "ministers" of the Babylon Harlot.

No, sister, LIERS ARE FRYERS if they tell you that MUSIC was EVER used in the worship of a Spirit God. And in paganism, the same AUTHORITY for music is also athority for girl singers as prostitutes and male performers as SODOMITES. THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE.

In fact, in the Bible all musical terms or names of Instruments are connected to the Devil, to polluting or to prostituting. The TRIUMPH over prophesied for Jesus by Judas was the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the Jerusalem Temple under the Greeks: The MASCULINE JOURNEY INITIATION was sodomy. There is no other tradition.

If you care one jot I can point you to the largest collection of documents but NOT ONE which will give you authority for MUSIC of any KIND unless you are MARKED by Satan.

The JUDGMENTALISM about Billy Graham began with the LOCUSTS eating up the widow's tithe KNOWING THEY WERE DELICIOUSLY sowing discord by JUDGING that Franklin Graham was OK along with EVERYONE who can say "Jesus."

This is the deliberate use of DISCORD or "Navigating the Winds of Change" derived from Hegel, Hitler or Machiavelli. You deliberately rub dung in the face of people but not to the point of getting fired. Then they WASH IT OFF and you are eternally grateful that you don't have to do it every week. Nevertheless, they have MOVED you from YOUR opinion to worship theirs.

The JUDGMENTALISM about music began with destructive children DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD just to pay off the TEMPLE BILL.

Those who OBJECT can be defined as JUDGMENTAL only by those who would shoot you in the heart and condemn you for squirting blood on their dancing slippers.

Ken Sublett

 
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Observer

67.64.105.165

Wow!

June 13 2006, 5:04 PM 

The message of our Lord and Savior does not match up with the volatile hatred that you spew towards a fellow believer in the Lord Jesus. You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel!

 
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Nathaniel Greene

72.237.37.106

Sorry... but no...

April 3 2008, 7:46 AM 

Being the biblical language geek that I am, I can't help but point out the problems with this "sermonette."

First: The name Jezebel most likely means "Where's the prince?" Yes, it is tied to the OT character; however, strictly based off of the meaning of the name itself - I don't see a problem with a worship team bearing that name. I'm sure there would be more explanation needed on behalf of the band; that, however, would be another story.

Second: Your translations of the verb HALAL and the noun ZOE are simply wrong. Halal is the Hebrew verb meaning "to praise." Zoe means "life." That's pretty elementary.

This shows your inadequacy in regards to lexical studies of such a simple nature and debases the rest of your argument, really.

These are stupid issues in the end that are of no consequence. What matters is ministry. What matters is loving people. What matters is how the church is addressing issues like the genocide in Darfur. What matters is how the Church is addressing issues like Invisible Children. What matters is how the church needs to address the racism inherent in the American Justice system.

How about we all get over ourselves and start loving our neighbors like Jesus called us to?

 
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Ron Cozort

72.54.85.249

What's The Problem

August 2 2007, 9:50 AM 

I agree! The problem here is you are dealing with a group of people who have a Pelagian mentality.

 
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Jack L Drain

12.239.213.201

Request for addresses

January 13 2003, 2:03 PM 

Please send me the mailing addresses for the nineteen people who signed the "25 Theses" article.
Thank You,
jdrain

 
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D.Samuel raj

59.92.127.20

minister

June 17 2011, 8:55 AM 

I know brother J.C.Choate. You are J.E.Choate. Who are you? I wish to know about you. Please pray for our ministry.
God bless you
D.Samuel raj minister
sathy church of christ

 
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Jeff Day

216.201.216.182

Sick

November 6 2002, 6:40 PM 

This is a SICK, last gasp effort. Do the people that posted this actually think something like this will work? Hogwash, I say! It will only serve to alienate and further CAUSE discord. And, yes it causes discord. THere is NO OTHER way to look at it.

And, I am sure that no one saw them anyway. I am sure that the first person to the church took them all down and threw them in the trash where they belong. I am not even a member there and if I were to come to RHCC and see that, I would have taken them down and put this trash where it belongs.

grace and peace.

Jeff

 
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James Kisner

207.190.64.104

Re: Sick

November 17 2002, 4:57 PM 

(I really didn't know where to post this response, so here it is, though it is not completely a direct response to the original message.)

Well, I suppose these 25 theses nailed to the church doors at Richland Hills are supposed to be likened to Luther's 95 theses on the Wittenburg church door. I agree with you, brother, this is a bunch of rubbish and a last ditch effort by the ultra-conservatives in the non-instrumental churches to keep things the way they have always been (which they feel is the only scriptural arrangement). To them, I would say, if you cannot follow the leading of the elders of the Richland Hills Church of Christ, then LEAVE! It really makes no difference whether you or the elders are right. If you cause more trouble in that church, then you are guilty of propogating the discord in the church, and that is a SIN, too! Richland Hills Church of Christ is not YOUR church. You are not the elders, you are not the leaders. If you don't like how things are being done there, then close your Bibles and go to another congregation where you can worship God in peace. Let's face it, the elders are probably not going to change their minds, and obviously you are not either. Don't tear up the church there. Just go where you can be at peace. Richland Hills doesn't belong to you personally. You don't own the church.

Having recognized one of the signers of the so-called 25 theses as being a former Bible instructor of mine at a Church of Christ school, I am a bit surprised that his name is on it. I remember very well hearing him say many times that if someone is not happy in a church with decisions that elders make, then they should leave peacefully. And, you know, I took his advice. I am now a Minister of Worship in a Church of Christ in Wisconsin. Yes, we are a progressive Church of Christ. Yes, we use instruments in worship. Yes we lift our hands in worship. Some of us shout, some say Amen, some clap. And, we have women on our praise team. We have Christmas Eve and Easter worship services, and we even serve communion at those services, whether they are on a Sunday or Tuesday. We are led by qualified elders and a senior minister. We believe the Bible to be true from cover to cover. We still (and always will) practice believer's baptism by immersion for the remission of sin. And do you know what, we don't all agree on many points of doctrine. There are amillenialists, premillenialists, post-millenialists, charismatics, non-charismatics, instrumentalists, non-instrumentalists, former Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Mennonites, Amish, and others represented among our ranks. All of these have been bought by the blood of Jesus, and we all have one thing in common - we are SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH (and yes, all of us have been immersed!). Additionally, we have peace. We aren't perfect, but we have peace. And we take seriously our search for truth, but we don't let that search and our own discoveries cloud the issue of what brought us to where we are - the BLOOD OF JESUS! All of the issues that we have serious disagreements over and that we pledge to each other to study vigorously, pale in comparison to the gift that Jesus gave. I am glad that I took my instructor's advice and found a church where I am able to serve the Lord in peace. To that instructor, whom, out of respect and admiration, I have chosen not to name, if he ever reads this post (if this post clears the moderators), let me say, "take your own advice." If you are at Richland Hills and are not happy, leave. Do what you told all of your Bible students to do. If you are not there, I really wish you'd take your name off of that list of signatures. You are doing the church no good by allying yourself with this divisive element.

James D. Kisner

 
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Kenneth Sublett

63.84.81.17

Musical Mediators Not Curable By The Great Physician

November 17 2002, 9:12 PM 

THE COMMING CRASH OF LUCIFER RELIGION: A MAJOR COMPONENT OF THE GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT AND THAT IS WHY THEY FLY FLAGS AS IDOLS. Jesus is the ENSIGN of Christians and Calvin says that the ORGAN is the MARK of Baal.

Sure, the singy-clappy class wants to Hegel them as being a FOOL for standing up for the Word of God! But it is end-time hysteria. They said that Jesus was Baal Zebub or Beliar: the Military Musicians had to IDENTIFY even God Incarnate as the ENEMY before they could try to beat Him to death as the musicians participated in animal sacrifice in their LIKE THE NATION'S TEMPLE.

THE BIBLE FROM BEGINNING TO END ASSOCIATES SINGERS AND MUSICIANS WITH PROSTITUTES TRYING TO SILENCE GOD. WHY WOULD "LEADERS" PICK PERFORMING ARTISTS TO "STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE" CLAIMING TO BE GODS? Is that one of Satan's miracle signs? It was in the book of Genesis and also in the book of Revelation where "RELIGION" is God's way to separate the overwhelming majority of those not able to be disciplined by the Living Word of God. The OLD, largely lost Christianity is A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and not a pagan worship center. In the end, it will be so invisibly tiny that you cannot find it: they are SLOWLY SLIPPING AWAY as we write.

As the BABYLON HOLY WHORE PROTOTYPE Inanna got the god of the POWERS drunk and stole them: they included the gift of the eldership, the gift of controlling the gates of hell, the gift of controlling the musical worship teams and the gift of perverted sexuality. That is also the meaning of the ZOE (Eve) concept. As the beginning time and end time harlot Isaiah said:

"Your might and power are gone; they are buried with you. All the pleasant music in your palace has ceased; now maggots are your sheet, worms your blanket! Isa 14:11LIV

"Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy VIOLS: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms (MAGGOTS) cover thee. ISA 14:11KJV

"How art thou FALLEN from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:12

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ASCEND into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the STARS of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:13 {or "lead the worshipers into the presence of God.")

"I will ASCEND above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isa 14:14

"Yet thou shalt be brought down to HELL, to the sides of the pit. Is.14:15

Ezekiel who always associates singing and instruments with treating God like a prostitute reaches back to show us that this is the same Lucifer or Satan who wholly seduced Eve in a sexual way and disqualified her as a spiritual leader because she and male agents can be seduced by feelings:

"Thou hast been in EDEN the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy TABRETS and of thy PIPES was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze.28:13

Going back into hell with his VIOLS or HARPS shows that Lucifer as Satan created String, Wind and Percussion instruments. That is why they were used by the LEVITICAL sounders as the TYPE of the musical mockers trying to silence Lord Jesus Christ the Fulfillment of animal sacrifices and the SILENCER of the musical worship teams. When the Jews used MUSIC as worshiping they worshiping Molech and Chiun the "anointed cherubs" now called SATAN.

Satan tried to steal worship from God even in heaven:

"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Eze.28:14

"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Eze.28:17

Lucifer's NAME is derived from HALAL or praise as "making a fool of self or making self vile" as part of the musical worship.

As Israel and Judah were prostitute religions worshiping a form of Lucifer because of their musical idolatry, Tyre is treated the same:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre SING as an HARLOT. Isaiah 23:15

"Take an HARP, go about the city, thou HARLOT that hast been forgotten; make sweet MELODY, SING many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isaiah 23:16

The word SINGER and PLAYER is intimately tied to female singers and Sodomites which plagued God's faithful.

And Ezekiel speaking of the king of Tyre as Lucifer's agent of music and commerce:

"They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. Ezek 26:12NIV

"I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. Ezek 26:13NIV

The point is that you build a MEGA-TEMPLE to try to FORCE the seed to sprout "SATAN WILL COME" and stealers get their Tower of Babel swept away by someone NAVIGATING A STRONGER WIND.

The LXX is more forceful in showing that both the music and the musicians would be destroyed as at the end according to Revelation 18--

"And he shall destroy the multitude of thy MUSICIANS, and the sound of thy psalteries shall be heard no more." Ezek. 26:13LXX

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; Ezekiel 26:20

Revelation 18 identifies the end time Musical Worship Prostitute as the same Lucifer or Satan in Ezekiel 26.

"And the fruits that thy soul LUSTED after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Revelation 18:21

The GRINDERS in Hebrew were concubines or prostitutes.

"And the voice of HARPERS, and MUSICIANS, and of PIPERS, and TRUMPETERS, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever CRAFT he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Revelation 18:22

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy SORCERIES were all nations deceived. Revelation 18:23 [The witch of Endor used an old empty wineskin]

According to the Book of Enoch amplified by other ancient documents such as the Book of Jubilees when GOD COMES WITH TEN THOUSAND OF HIS SAINTS He is NOT coming to judge those like the TREE OF LIFE Who always obey God's laws. Rather, He is coming for those who SEDUCED the faithful down into the valley of the CAINITES (Cain = a musical note) from the presence of the Living Word.

Satan was a NAGA or Nachash or musical enchanter in the garden and S/HE will be the musical worship facilitators SILENCING the Word of God for anyone who is BLIND and continues to DIVERT contributions from the poor and restore ancient Judaism including musical worship leaders who MOCKED the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ. But, not among the Jews nor the VILEST tower of Babel did the musicians EVERY DARE enter into the Holy Place (church) or the Most Holy Place (our spirit where God dwells). We are certainly witnessing a NEW THING ON THE EARTH among an already small remnant not already seduced by Lucifer the musical whore. I hope that it is Satan working miracles!

EXULT and be GLAD: in the ENOCHIAN literature the FALLEN SETHITES who were seduced into mixed-sex choirs, playing musical instruments, "putting on garments" in the clergy sense and initiation with sexual perversion KNEW that they were lost and without redemption. As time grows short in this ancient literature the musical worship AGENTS OF SATAN got more and more desperate to seduce more and more people into replacing the MARK of the Word with the MARK of Satan's music. The fallen Lucifer has his angels or "evangelists and pastors" and if he isn't ignorant he will have filled most pulpits by now right out of a manufacturing plant. I am reading Iron Coffin and Werner, in probably the LAST submarine is still rejoicing and being glad that HE will stop the INVASION of France: so don't let self-satisfaction let you sleep it night: God DOES send strong delusions using strong deluders to march the slaves gayly along into captivity.

Pyramids of program power, firing vocational ministers, new TEMPLES and almost the totality of COMMERCIAL RELIGION will shortly fall into the PIT by its own weight and the music and musicians will fall and there will again be peace for the CHRISTIANS who see "church" as school of the Bible with no Musical Learning Teams. One suspects that the loss of COMMERCIAL RELIGION for the state to RIDE UPON would cause the whole economy to collapse.

Lucifer has undoubtedly fallen again: he is Saturn (666) thrusting in HIS sickle (a musical instrument in Hebrew) who in the Roman model is also Apollo who is Abaddon or Apollyon who ALSO had his seeker center at Delphi where he USED ministers of music, women and other assorted locusts with stings in their tails. The clanging locusts don't eat grass but are SEPARATING those with different MARKS. You cannot LOVE the Word if you don't know that from cover to cover the message is that MUSICAL AGENTS are sent to STEAL THE WORDS OF CHRIST and try to garner the praise due Christ. Jesus spoke in parables to the Lucifer Agents "from the foundation of the world" so that they COULD NOT hear the Word and repent: just as in the Book of Enoch and ALL of the Biblical MUSIC connections.

"The Lord is IN His holy temple, let all believers KEEP SILENCE BEFORE Him" so that the Locusts (clatter like cymbals) can readily identify those with the BEGINING AND END TIME Mark of the Beast (ZOE, the female instructing principle in the ANE, Gnosticism and a church coming to your community.)

If you're happy with your choice, CLAP your hands. [Clap as in driving a tent peg into a sleeping man's head: probably put to sleep by music]. But, the world is RETURNING to Christ by returning to His WORD denounced by your HAPPY MEAL PEDDLARS. Therefore, if not absolutely Biblically illiterate; or if not a foreign agent, everyone knows that the totality of the Bible and history denounces music because it INDUCES A DRUG HIGH in the brain so that you CANNOT ever hear the Words of Christ again.

Judas was INDWELLED as an angel or agent of Satan: the Judas bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments." His is always depicted as naked, drunk and playing a flute. The Hebrew Chalal can be "Pollute, prostitute or play the flute." The ONLY promise of REST for the MUSICAL subverters of the Word is that they will REST on a BED OF MAGGOTS with, as at UR, the harp and the buried alive girl harpist at your side. I truly grasp the desparate feeling of a Jubal (Genun) and the seduced Sethites who knew that they were beyond redemption. I know that Max Lucado hopes that lucifer will be redeemed but the Bible repudiates it. I know the hopeless feeling of a Judas whose flute case was a thief's bag. But the Bible holds out no hope for the blind or their leaders who have KNOWN the Word and rejected it (Heb 6 says that this is one unforgivable sin).

Look for the COMING CRASH IN COMMERCIAL RELIGION: history says "don't buy church bonds." And don't steal the money from the poor to TITHE to support "a missionary in residence." Oh! Paul did say in effect: "Fools love to be fooled." Ain't it the truff, Festus?

Ken Sublett

 
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JoAnna Butler

65.71.254.92

Where is the love?

July 17 2003, 11:12 AM 

I read some of your responses...it only took a few...to realize you care more for your attempts at legalism than for love..if it were not so, more would be said in your discourses about Jesus' command to love and more reflective of the fruits of the Spirit..You can be like a Berean without the representation of a Pharisee...here is an expert from Debbie Holland..a fellow lady in Christ..I think all on this forum could utilize this message...I know I needed to hear it..but most importantly..to abide by it..

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Your Questions Answered by The King's High Way
Pain Caused By Other Christians
by Debbie Holland
Q: You talk a lot about the healing of relationships in the King's High Way series. What do you do when all the pain and hurt you receive comes from brothers and sisters in Christ?
...How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like precious ointment poured on the head…
Psalm 133:1,2

A: Where there is unity, there is power. To be in agreement and unity with fellow believers is the most peaceful and powerful place for a Christian. United we stand. Divided we fall. Satan is well aware of this principle. He knows that if any two of us on earth agree concerning what we ask, it shall be done for us. And, where two or more are gathered together in Jesus' name, He will be there, also (see Mt 18:19 - 20). Therefore, Satan's desire is to ruin our relationships by sowing strife among us. Because if he can keep us in turmoil with our brothers and sisters in Christ, then he knows we will be vulnerable and lack God's power.

Nothing is more hurtful than to have Christian brothers and sisters turn against us. Matthew 24:12, however, tells us that in the "end times" this is exactly what is going to happen, "the Love (Agape) of many will grow (wax) cold." Christians are the only ones who can have Agape Love. Agape is God "Himself" living inside us, but when we injure one another we block His Love from coming forth.

There are three ways to cope when we've been hurt by someone in the body of Christ: flee, fight, or forgive. If we opt to flee, we will usually end up church hopping, content with none — or even worse, forsaking the assembling of the body altogether and being isolated. If we opt to fight, discord, discontentment and tension become a way of life. But if we choose to forgive, we will be totally putting God first and loving Him. To forgive simply means releasing the other person to God. God will then give us His grace, His Love and His ability to forgive (2 Corinthians 2:10).

As Christians we can be honest with God and say, "I don't want to forgive. I am fearful of what is going to happen. But, more than anything else, I want to follow what You want me to do. So, by faith, I choose to give these negative thoughts to You because I know I have Your authority to say, like Jesus did in Matthew 26:39, ‘Not my will, but Thine.'" Then I can be assured I am a cleansed vessel and God can perform His Will in and through me. I don't have to "feel" my choices; I just have to be willing to make them. God then does the rest. In His timing, He will align my feelings with my choices.

Thus, we are not responsible to change our negative feelings and thoughts. There is no way we can do that! We are only responsible to put in charge the Person who can change our feelings, and that's God. When we are clean, God can flow His Life through us. Because He has forgiven us, we can forgive others. Because He has a forgiving heart, we can have a forgiving heart. We can have a heart like His.

To have a heart like His means to, "Be kind and loving to each other, and forgive each other just as God forgave you in Christ" (Eph 4:32). You might be thinking, "I'm not the guilty one here." And you probably aren't, but neither was Jesus when He died on the Cross for our sins. Jesus tells us that the one who is worthy of being served, serves others. The one who is innocent is the one who makes the gesture. And do you know what happens? More often than not, if the one in the right volunteers to wash the feet of the one in the wrong, both parties get on their knees.

God says we must put away bitterness, wrath and anger (Eph 4:29 - 31) by giving things to Him; and then, we must love our enemies and forgive those who despitefully use us. We can't change the person who has hurt us, but we can change ourselves — deal with our own hurt and anger. If we don't, we are the ones who end up in bondage. Father, open our eyes to see the good in those who need our forgiveness... In the name of Jesus, the Sanctifier.


Debbie Holland
King's High Way Manager

Visit the King's High Way Website




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This article was originally published in the
August 2001 Personal Update NewsJournal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Related Resources:

The Way of Agape Textbook - Chuck and Nancy Missler / Paperback
Practical tools enabling us to understand the difference between God’s Love and human love, what it means to love God and how we are to love others as ourselves.

I encourage you to visit www.khouse.org

 
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Joe

152.163.253.3

Hateful message

December 14 2003, 10:35 PM 

Listen to yourself. On and on your message goes, only showing off your ability to arrange words in a hateful format. You need to spend less time spreading harmful messages and more time spreading the loving word of Christ.

Do you really think your extremely long and confusing message will be carefully read by someone you hope to convince of your position. No, noone is going to read that with careful thought. But, I believe your message and many similar ones on this site are a reflection of your hate and perceived abandonement of your Church. You are attempting to show off, nothing more. Only your own kind will marvel at your words. So there are 25 of your admiring one anothers gibberish.

Your group does not like what is happening at Richland Hills. Then form your own Church to worship Christ. Learn to Love one another. Not drive wedges between eachother.



 
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Kenneth Sublett

63.84.81.45

Hateful?

December 15 2003, 11:38 AM 

I can tell that you are still a COMPLIMENTARIAN and have not been ASSIMILATED yet.

You should grasp that with postmodernism, WE don't BUILD churches anymore: we STEAL THEM! Ain't that so cute?

And you are still living in the obsolete MODERN or P.M. Era (that is Pre Me). Now, we have a much cuter PARADIGM to replace the old PATTERNISM:

Now we drive PEOPLE between WEDGES. Isn't that louuuvvveeeeingggg?

Take a look at the modern Hostile Takeover in Hohenwald.

http://www.piney.com/Hohenwald.Church.html

Ken, witness to the end times when the Babylon Harlot (music) has already moved in and is separating those with the MARK of the Word and driving them away. At the same time they TAKE CAPTIVE those marked with the MARK of Cain (Cain meaning a "musical note.") to PUNISH them until they make up HUGE CHURCHES more easilty consumed by God as they BURN themselves up with the BREATH of their mouth. Sure, Nimrod and your doctor knows that MUSIC punishes: may bring on premature birth which makes them abortionists.

The Just Jesus or Just Love is Satan's biggest lie.

Ken

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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