Brothers and Sisters,

We have a problem. There is insurrection going on in the church of Christ and it has infiltrated the body. Where God is not honored, he is not glorified. The Saints are suffering at churches of Christ due to the lack of respect of the authority of the word of God. When we have a lack of respect for the body and the word, insurrection and every EVIL deed, doctrine, and defication will follow.

We have one segment following the Fresh Bread approach that was founded by a false teacher named ____________. Incidentally, ______________proclaimed to a class about a month and a half ago that he layed hands on a man without a leg and the mans leg grew back. Brothers and Sisters we cannot have such an abomination going on in the Lord's Church.

We have an elder that does not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. Brothers and Sisters, that is "anathema". I am pounding my desk as I write this because we cannot have a false teacher spreading blasphemical doctrine among the body the way some churches have allowed.

I have confronted these brethren with love and they have looked at me and said "........., we don't want to hear what we are doing is wrong". The problem with that statement is that it denies the purity, longfullness, and holification of the word of God.

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MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

We have determined that this post is a fabrication by someone that posted it from an ip address of 63.85.229.133.

Their clear intent was to lie, and confuse, with calous disregard for the names of others.

Please be aware that the freedom to post here is guaranteed to all. That means also to Satan himself.
Use your discernment, and notify us immeidately on anything that does not look right.

Sorry

The only detrement to holiness is people like you that want to complain constantly. You do not have the only view of the interpretation of scripture. The interpretation of scripture is not based on our traditions either. Just because something is uncomfortable to you does not mean that it is wrong. baptism does NOT save us. However, I do believe that we should be out of obedience to the Word.

Just chill out and don't be so critical. Your criticalness leads to DIVISION!

Try looking at 1 Pet. 3:21 to see if Baptism saves us or not.
Thank you

Didn't wicked King Ahab express such sentiments to the prophet Elijah ( I Kings 18:17,8)?

I hope you are not saying that we should kill the false prophets:

1 Kings 18:40

And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

I am not sure what "get a life" is, but that's the title, so I will address it. Bit of logic problem here. If baptism isn't necessary, then why do you think we should do it. If baptism doesn't save us, how do you steer around 1 Peter 3:21 which says it DOES save us? Who is right? You, or God? Note every instance in the book of Acts where a person was saved, that baptism was done. How did the Ethopian Eunuch and the Philippian Jailor know about baptism? The thing preached to them was Jesus. Remember, Nadab & Abihu thought they knew better than God what they should do religiously. Uzza thought he knew better than God when he touched the ark. Paul, when he asked what to do, was told to go into Damascus. THERE it would be told him. He was instructed to be baptized.
I believe that's how we "get a life". By doing God's will and not trying to look for loopholes.

Yeah, that is what I am looking for...loopholes. RIGHT!! I say again....GET A LIFE!!! I am not looking for LOOPHOLES, I am looking for what is IMPORTANT. And, take a look a Cornelius. He was saved and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized. So your inference that all were baptized before being saved is wrong.

Answer the main point of my post which is..WHY are we focusing on things like WHEN we are supposed to take the Lord's Supper, WHEN is baptism supposed to be done to be OFFICIAL, and WHO we should fellowship and not on things like bringing others to Christ.

Until others know we CARE, they don't CARE what we know.

Think about that.....

I have found out that a Bible teacher in a Christian(Church of Christ) school in one of the major cities in TN has been reprimanded by the principal, and either been dismissed after the semester or has chosen to leave, after some parents of students called and complained that the teacher was teaching baptism as part of salvation.I do not know if these were members of the church or not, but the reprimand given to the teacher was approved of by some folks that are not members. As if the teacher had done something wrong or abnormal. The interpretation APPARENTLY taken by the students and parents was that if you are not a member of the Church of Christ you will not be saved. I do not know if the teacher said exactly that, but there were some upset parents.

When it was suggested by a parent that this was, after all, a Church of Christ school, another parent-not a member of the Church of Christ, stated that what the teacher did wasn't right, because the handbook states this is a 'nondenominational 'school, and the church can't teach its doctrine in the school. I personally thought 'nondenominational' meant that all denominations were accepted. I didn't know that this meant that doctrine couldn't be taught by the Bible teacher. Frankly I am offended because no one told us that the facts of salvation apparently are not to be taught there. I think alot of the folks who contribute to the school would be surprised to know this. More investigation needs to be done.

This is a Church of Christ school in operation since the 50's. In previous years, the Bible was taught openly and freely and it was understood what would be taught there, and if someone didn't want their child taught this way, they didn't send their child there. Simple as that. Apparently things have changed there, but this new Bible teacher "slipped up".

The teacher is leaving in Dec. It was her first year there.

Never mind the students and the parents who were offended by doctrine; what about the children raised in the Church of Christ in that class? They are now being given the message that there is something wrong with talking about their beliefs, because you might offend someone! So the students who are nonmembers, or don't believe in the way to salvation have more rights in a Church of Christ school than the members!
Apparently it is sanctioned by the administration, too.

There are so many patrons at this school who do not go to the church of Christ that there is now a group of parents who are pushing for the school to begin to hire teachers from outside the church.They only want their kids there because of the social aspect and the academics. Its like it has been taken over, but the people in the Church of Christ who run the school now apparently have their own agenda, too, and it is size, prestige and money. Its clear that being a Christian is not that important there.In fact its unpopular!

This school was founded by two Church of Christ preachers and has been supported for more than 50 years by the members of the church for ministry and a place for the children of church members to go to school. Many people sacrificed much for this school to exist and to stay in existance. Now it seems to be a secular generically 'Christian' place, and about half the students do not go to the Church of Christ and some, to church at all. One can really see in the behavior of the kids that things have changed over the years. The atmosphere in some of the other denominational schools in the area are much less worldly, in fact.

Some of the kids are confused about what it means to be a member of the church of Christ, or a Christian. Not too long ago a middle schooler was harrassed and hit and kicked in the hallway either between classes or after school, by a group of older boys. It took him going to a teacher for things to be handled. No one helped him or reported it apparently. Apparently these kids had been bothering him for awhile.This could only happen in an atmosphere that doesn't foster and exemplify on a daily basis, in every activity, the example of Jesus and the teachings of the Bible. Its a trickle down effect. As the administration is...so are the teachers, the students and the parents. Like attracts like.

Notable is the massive growth program instituted a few years ago by the president of the school, and a parking lot full of SUV's.It is being suggested that the old folks remember the school in their wills,and there is even a Grandparents Day to honor them (and remind them to give to the school when they die). At least the old folks can feel useful even if nobody listens to them.

Growth and attracting more students is the most important thing there. You can't afford to offend anyone if you want to grow. Let me amend that - you can't afford to offend the people that MATTER to you. Apparently some of us don't. Is the community church mentality here too?

The school presents 'Character Education' precepts each month just like the public schools and on the same schedule as the public schools.Why do they have to follow this program when they have the bible?
I sound bitter, but mostly I am just sad.

I cannot make an informed decision re the validity of this article without specifics of the school's name and location, principal's name, etc. This type of reporting is very vague and does not provide facts that can be checked to back up assertions. It is just too close to gossip. We are committed to fight error but must do so very carefully. Please document all statements. These types of incidences get people's emotions heightened with an end result of many saying things they know nothing about or distorting what occurred. I do not like to see devoted church of Christ members labeled as such.

The school is Boyd Buchanan in Chattanooga Tn. They do not teach doctrine in their bible classes as they do not want to alienate any students as they have many students who do not go to the church of Christ in their school.They do suggest that all students read and study for themselves but they do not want the students to'parrot'(their words) anything the teacher teaches in the class. I would suggest that all who are concerned about their area Christian schools to call that school for themselves and ask if the doctrine taught in the Church is taught in the schools. Wake up and get the facts and do not allow anyone to hedge about this.Does Lipscomb High School teach this?

I want to know which school fired the teacher. Thank you.
Charles Dyer

I heard it was in Chattanooga, and that most of the staff was from one particular congregation there which seems to be embracing the community chuch movement in the church.

This is just like our big colleges that has been taken over by denominational teachers. Abilene Christian is one example. I am very saddened by this and I don't understand why we don't have abled christians to stand up and put our armour on and fight against this evil that has taken over "our" Christian schools. It makes me sick to not hear of anyone who will stand up and fight the good fight for Christ. He is going to ask us on judgement day "Why we did not fight for our schools and allow these worldly parents to just take over our schools in the first place. If they cannot abide with our Christian moral conduct and disciplinary rules, they can go find another school that suits their lifestyle. We let these things happen because we are so blind at what has been happening in our schools and our churches of Christ. We are going to have to build our schools with better rules and not allow just anyone to come in and take over our administration of our schools. We need a better generation of kids to be taught what is right and wrong in our schools if it is not too late.
I am very angry and saddened by all of this in our churches and schools.

Judy,

I can sense the hurt in your heart by the tone of your post. I also sense that you feel the "fight" is with others who call Jesus their Lord and Savior. They just view their relationships a little differently than you. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, only different.

I don't view judgement day the way you do, Judy. I believe He will be asking me 2 questions.

1)Why should I let you into Heaven?
2)Did you bring anyone with you?

My answers are firmly set.

How about yours?

Blessings, peace and comfort
JQ
<")))><

What school are you talking about? You did not mention the name of the school.

I would like to know the school, so whoever sent in this letter needs to inform the website host who this school is. Unsubstantiated claims are not worthy of any Christian. If this is true, being a Christian father with a daughter teacher in the Nashville area, I would like to know if any of the area schools are affected.

Thanks

I'd like to know this, too. However, it's apparent that we aren't going to get an answer. I'm not sure why.

Leo

Thank you for your vigilence and for pointing out error. When will congregations stop trying to "improve" God's Word! It does not need improving...it needs reading and obeying. Thank you for your hard work.

I thank you for speaking up for the truth.We all need to be soldiers of Christ to speak out against these change agents that is happening in the Lords Church today.

Judy, who again do you believe that fight is with? And you say that you believe that rules are the fix for our churches? That is ALL we need, more rules! We have self-imposed so many rules that are NOT in the Bible it's not even funny. We aren't the "chosen church", we don't even resemble the "Lord's Church" anymore. All we can do anymore is say "That's not the right way to do that" or "That's not mentioned in scripture (even though it may have NOTHING at all to do with salvation).

I am so sick of people within "the church" (and I loath that term, by the way) thinking that we have it all figured out. Tell me one thing, do you think that the "Churches of Christ" have the Word of God interpreted 100% right?

Worldly...or so you say

Sister Judy:
Keep up the Good fight, and don't let these minor attack get you down. These are just the lightweights getting you stronger. These are good workouts for the main event which is coming soon.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Greetings in the Name of Jesus,
I have a question for anyone who is knowledgeable. It is my understanding the churches of Christ are Preterist or Partial Preterist. Could someone clarify which and if so what the end time beliefs are of the churches of Christ?
Thank you
Trish, a living stone

Preterist believe that all or most prophesy has already been fullfiled. The c of c position is that the only prophecy left to be fullfiled is Jesus returning for his Church. We are also a-millenial which means that we believe there will be no thousand year reign of Christ on this earth.

From one of my absolute best loved Bible scholars..Dr. Chuck Missler himself...I could not have said it better that is why I will allow him to speak on my behalf..I am a member of the Body of Christ..baptized through obedience as one saved by faith. I encourage you to visit www.khouse.org

Questions Continue:
The Great Snatch?
by Chuck Missler

We continue to receive many questions concerning the "Rapture of the Church" and its apparent contrast with the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where does this view come from? Is the term "rapture" even in the Bible?

The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly represented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, which encourages the grieving Christians that, at the "great snatch," they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

In verse 17, the English phrase "caught up" translates the Greek word harpazo, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up." The Latin translators of the Bible used the word "rapturo," the root of the English term "Rapture." At the Rapture, living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment in time to join the Lord in the air.

There are many that still hold to the view that emerged in the Medieval church (Catholic and Protestant) that the "Second Coming" of Christ and the "Rapture" are somehow the same. Yet there seems to be a number of indications that these are distinct and separate.

There is also predicted an unparalleled "time of trouble" that Jesus called the "Great Tribulation."1 Many hold to the view that the Rapture of the church will occur after that specific period of time, thus, closely associating it with the Second Coming. This is known as the "post-tribulation" view.

Post-Tribulation Views

There are at least four distinct types of post-tribulational views:2

Classic post-tribulationism (J. Barton Payne, et al);
Semi-classic post-tribulation ism (Alexander Reese);
Futuristic post-tribulationism (George E. Ladd);
Dispensational post-tribulationism (Robert H. Gundry).
These differing views are based upon different approaches, presuppositions, and argumentation. In fact, they substantially contradict each other. As one insists on literalness, each of these views must embrace in creasing difficulties. Those of us who cling to a very literal view of the Scriptures believe that the church will be removed prior to the tribulation period (the "pre-tribulation" view). Why? What is the basis for this view?

The Pre-Tribulation View 3

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation coming" (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's House (John 14:3). However, at Christ's Second Coming with His saints, He descends from heaven to set up His Messianic Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31). The differences between the two events are harmonized naturally by the "pre-trib" position, while other views are not able to ac count comfortably for such differences.

A New Testament Mystery

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Corinthians 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Colossians 1:26). The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10; 14:4). In fact, the oldest prophecy uttered by a prophet was given before the flood of Noah and was of the Second Coming! It was given by Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15.

The movement of the believer at the Rapture is from earth to heaven; at the Second Coming it is from heaven to earth. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), while at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

Post-tribulation Problems

One of the strengths of the pre-trib view is that it is better able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of the above distinctions. There are some awkward difficulties with the post-tribulational view:

1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. We believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period (see our briefing package, Daniel's 70 Weeks, for further study).

2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency--that Christ could come at any moment--since there are intervening events required in that view. We believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.

3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium4 if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.

4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ's Kingdom?

5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?

While many diligent scholars disagree, most of their views derive from their presuppositions about the Scripture. The more literal a view, the more there is an adoption of a pre-millennial pre-tribulation position. We encourage you to review the various passages yourself and develop your own conclusions. This is our "Blessed Hope," and you will not find a more exciting and rewarding discovery. This is just a brief overview of a complex subject, so apply 2 Timothy 2:15:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

This topic is perhaps the most demanding from the point of view of requiring the greatest amount of integration of many portions of Scripture. Remember Acts 17:11:

"Receive the Word with all readiness of mind, but search the Scriptures daily to prove whether those things be so."
A more comprehensive treatment of some of these topics is included in our Expositional Commentaries on the book of Daniel and the Thessalonian epistles. And if you don't happen to hold our views, don't worry about it. We'll explain it to you on the way up! Incidentally, Enoch is a model. He was pre-flood, not mid-flood or post-flood!

For more information about these views, we encourage you to contact the Pre-Trib Research Center, 370 L'Enfant Promenade SW, Suite 801, Washington DC, 20024.




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This article was originally published in the
January 1995 Personal Update NewsJournal.

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Notes: [RETURN TO TEXT]

Matthew 24:21; Daniel 12:1.
John F. Walvoord, "The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation: A Biblical and Historical Study of Post-tribulationism," Zondervan,Grand Rapids, MI, 1976, pp. 21-69. Post-tribulationism is not monolithic, but embraces many mutually contradictory views: amillennial post-tribulation, postmillennial post-tribulation,pre-millennial post-tribulational, and post-tribulation views that equate the Rapture and the Second Coming.
This article was excerpted from notes provided by Tommy Ice, Executive Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, 370 L'Enfant Promenade SW, Suite 801, Washington DC, 20024.
The Millennium is the term used to refer to the reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth after His Second Coming (Revelation 20; Isaiah 65). There are many who do not take the Bible literally and allegorize these passages. (These are known as "Amillennialists." We take the Bible more literally and believe that there will be a literal 1000-year reign, and are known as "Pre-millennialists.")

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Additional Related Resources:

Daniel's 70 Weeks - Chuck Missler / Cassette Tape
Chuck Missler examines some of the most provocative passages in the Bible - the Messianic and end-times prophecies in the book of Daniel.

Revelation - Audio Commentary - Chuck Missler /
Explore Revelation verse-by-verse with Chuck Missler. This is a 3 volume set with eight audios in each volume including notes

Joanna: From one of my absolute best loved Bible scholars..Dr. Chuck Missler himself...I could not have said it better that is why I will allow him to speak on my behalf..I am a member of the Body of Christ..baptized through obedience as one saved by faith. I encourage you to visit www.khouse.org

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Ken: Joanna seems to be a front for people like Dave Hunt and Chuck Missler

The Misslers came out of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa
I have not been able to listen to their service but the name sounds charismatic. They claim that the Holy Spirit is leading their musical worship. The Spirit has a Name: Jesus or Jehovah- Saved. In healing the young Girl, Jesus cast out the MUSICAL TEAM more or less violently as one "casts out dung." In that world the city officials governed the PRICE the flute girls could charge for their second service as well as regulating the DUNG HEAP.

"We Believe worship of God should be Spiritual.
. Therefore: We remain flexible and yielded to the Holy Spirit to direct our worship.

"We Believe worship of God should be Inspirational.
. Therefore: We give a great place to music in our worship.

Chuck Missler is heavily into prophecy and you can read his books about "From the edge of Eternity" or "Alien Encounters," or "Cosmic Codes." He is also into the fallen angels as possibly the aliens. He must not be aware that Lucifer and his fallen angels taught mankind how to seduce others with MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. As Lucifer the king of Tyre, he/she is called the harp- playing prostitute. God will come with ten thousand angels, says Enoch, Jubilees and dozens of other ancient docuemtns, specificially to destroy the MUSICAL agents attacking the Word.

Dave Hunt is a total Calvinist. Therefore, Joanna may speak of being baptized BECAUSE of her salvation by faith but Joanna is just listening to false teachers. Premillenialism or trying to SECOND GUESS God and prophetic utterances about the end time is a MARK of insecurity and inability to grasp that "God is God and we are not." Consequently, charismatic music and the claim of a THIRD member of the God family literally living in their bodies gives them permission to lie, cheat and steal if the SPIRIT does not tell them to stop. Profiteering over space ships and little aliens must be the depth of Lucifer's gift of MUSIC and TRAFFICKING.

A LETTER WRITTEN TO DAVE HUNT:

"This doctrine that you and others defend promotes this by saying that a person, though presently immoral, is still saved if he was ever saved! There is no way to know how much immorality, even resulting in divorce (which God hates), has occurred because of this teaching! The same can be said about suicide and crime! How the thrice holy God must hate this teaching that you and others teach as sound doctrine.

. "People who buy into the lie of eternal security are no longer concerned about entering the Kingdom of God, for they have been deceived into thinking they CAN'T miss it. Consequently, they walk in little or NO FEAR OF GOD, who can destroy both our bodies and souls in Hell (Mt. 10:28; Lk. 12:4,5). Paul, who taught we are saved by grace and not by works (Eph. 2:8,9), also taught we were to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). Furthermore, he wrote to Christians and informed them:

". . . you stand by faith. Do not be ARROGANT, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the NATURAL BRANCHES he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" (Rom 11:20-23).

. "Note: Paul taught Christians are either in ARROGANCE or this healthy fear regarding their security in Christ! Sadly, it must be stated that the teaching of eternal security directly opposes this "fear" and therefore, promotes the arrogance of which this true grace teacher warned!

Paul stopped in the middle of the Roman letter to preach his "synagogue sermon" in Romans 9-11. The Jews were evil because they believed that they were PREDESTINATED and God COULD NOT send them to hell.

Joanna claims to be in the body of Christ but she is a CALVINIST helping to market the false views of spooky people. While I read a lot of Calvin and Luther, neither taught the dogma of FAITH ONLY. Calvin warns that he gagged on Calvinism and warned others not to get involved in this MYSTERY. Calvin, like Joanne's friends just quote Scripture out of context and cannot Grasp, for instance, that PREDESTINATION was God's eternal plan that GENTILES be part of His family. The Bible NEVER speaks of little babies not an inch long burning in hell just to prove how big God is. Predestination is NEVER seen as personal predestination to either Heaven or Hell.

Look at our review of Calvinism by clicking here.

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/187120#list

Go to the Smith Springs Review: the Lipscomb Calvinism connection:

Joanna is spreading CALVINISM at this page:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/187069

Click on Is Baptism Essential to Be Saved? Then go down to JOANNA. Following her promotion of CALVINISM and FAITH ONLY which neither Luther nor Calvin preached I will review some of the SPECIFIC points which Joanna just tosses out without any proof or quotations.

I will review her (Dave Hun't) total misrepresentation of Scripture. So far, not a squeak out of Joanna on the INDIVIDUAL POINTS.

Zwingli as a renegade Calvinist claims that HE invented FAITH ONLY. And Martin Luther said that it originated in his times. Therefore, it was never a Biblical or historical doctrine. Baptist baptism is quite identical to ancient Pagan Baptism where baptism was a SHOW AND TELL of one's righteousness.

Ken Sublett

We should point out that Dave Hunt's 2002 book is a rebuttal of parts of Calvinism. Nevertheless, His views of baptism is predestination. He especially focuses on ETERNAL SECURITY at the moment.

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas17.html

Dave Hunt is a Baptist and calvinism permeates most baptist groups as it nibbles around the edges among churches of Christ.

Ken Sublett