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Alan Savell: The Silence of the Scriptures: Hannukah

March 17 2003 at 3:14 PM
ConcernedMembers 
from IP address 65.80.181.184

Alan Savell goes through the list of things in which others claim were SINS which were not CORRECTED.

When God sends strong delusions and you cannot READ the text or understand it whan it is READ, you may think that God is silent when He is screaming into your ears.

The Silence of Scriptures is blamed for Churches of Christ NOT beginning to impose instrumental noise in the School of Christ when they had NEVER disobeyed the direct command begining in the Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness. God knew that no one can hear His voice but His Son, therefore, the command is to PREACH the Word (only) by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. Therefore, the Bible is very loud in commanding the use of "one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our learning." (Romans 15). Why do you suppose that preachers cannot grasp that? Jesus said that doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge. That's their assigned task because the sons of the Devil "speak on their own."

http://www.piney.com/Commands.Examples.and.Necessary.Inferences.html

These blind leaders of the blind also debunk the Regulative Principle claiming that churches of Christ got it from John Calvin. However, John Calvin was literate and He got it from understanding the meaning of Word or LOGOS. Jesus as the LOGOS is the Regulative principle as opposed to Hermes or Mercury the perverted, musical logos of the Greek gods.

http://www.piney.com/Regulative.Principle.and.Churches.of.Christ.html

Since Christ is the LOGOS or regulative principle of the rational or spiritual universe, those who debunk the Regulative Principle are anti-Christs.









The Silence of the Scriptures

Considerable controversy has arisen over silence of the Scriptures. Some say silence allows; others say silence prohibits. Still others say the Bible is not a book of rules and so asking about silence is the wrong question. So, what about silence?
God gave humans the capacity for language. He revealed His will to us by guiding people to write in existing human languages so we could understand His message much as we would other communication. So, if silence is a factor in our ordinary understanding of language, God would expect us to use it in reading Scripture. To learn about silence, lets imagine we have received an invitation to dinner: The honor of your presence is requested on February 7, 2002, at 7 p.m. at the home of Mr. and Mrs. John Smith. Would the Smiths expect us to use silence in understanding this invitation?
Since one date is specified, we would understand all other dates are excluded. The Smiths dont have to list all the dates not to come to the dinner and we would not call asking to come on February 9. By specifying one possibility out of the date category, silence about all other dates naturally excludes them. In the time category, 7 p.m. has been specified. Silence about all other times naturally eliminates them. In the place category, the home of Mr. and Mrs. John Smith has been specified. Silence about all other places naturally excludes them.
So, Silence Principle No. 1: If one or more options out of a category are specified, silence about all other options in that category excludes them.
That the Bible expects us to follow this use of silence, as in the ordinary use of language, is clear from many passages. When Saul, for example, offered a sacrifice without waiting for Samuel, Samuel told him, You have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you (1 Samuel 13:13). What command? Since Saul had asked that the animals for the sacrifice be brought to him, it appears he offered the sacrifice himself. But, where did God command Saul not to offer a sacrifice? In Leviticus 1:7, God had said the sons of Aaron the priest are to offer sacrifices. In the category of who offers sacrifices, then, God specified priests and His silence about anyone else was a command for no one else to do it. Hebrews 7:13-14, in a similar way, says Jesus could not be a priest under the Mosaic system because he was from the tribe of Judah. But where does the Bible say those from Judah cannot be priests. Hebrews explains, In regard to that tribe [Judah] Moses said nothing about priests. Thus, Hebrews says that since Moses said nothing (was silent) about Judah when specifying who should be priests, this silence excluded those out of Judah from being priests. Scores of other cases in the Bible show the exclusionary power of silence. When God told Moses to speak to the rock to get water, striking the rock was eliminated (Numbers 20:8). Moses didnt offer as an excuse, You didnt say not to strike the rock. When God specified where to get fire to burn incense, Nadab and Abihu suffered the consequences of getting unauthorized fire (Leviticus 10:1) because they got fire from a place other than the one specified. When David moved the ark by ox cart, Uzzah died because David did not transport the ark in the prescribed way (1 Chronicles 15:13). All ways not prescribed were eliminated. God told Naaman to dip in the Jordan, and that eliminated all other rivers. When God told Jonah to go to Nineveh, he didnt have to list all the places he was not to go. When the Corinthians did not follow the directions Paul gave for taking the Lords Supper as Paul had received from the Lord and passed on to them, they were guilty of sinning against the Lords body and blood and were eating and drinking judgment on themselves (1 Corinthians 11:23-29).
From these and many other Bible cases, it is clear that when the Lord specifies one option out of a category, His silence about other options excludes them. He does not have to provide a list of all excluded actions. By specifying one option and being silent about others, He is excluding those not mentioned.
Here are some cases in which we may apply this principle. Because God specified bread and fruit of the vine for the Lords supper, other foods are excluded from this service. Because the Lord specified elders in each congregation as the form of approved leadership, a papal system is excluded. Because the Lord specified immersion as the method of baptism, sprinkling and pouring are excluded. Because the Lord specified vocal music as the option out of the music category, instruments are excluded. Because the Lord specified prayer in the name of Jesus, prayers offered in the name of anyone else are excluded.
So when one option out of a category is specified, other options in that category are excluded. That is how language operates. Pharmacists fill a prescription knowing that because the doctor specified one medicine, he prohibited using any others. Builders know that when the architect specifies doors of a particular size, they are prohibited from using other sizes. The cook knows that if a recipe specifies a certain oven heat, other heats are not intended. If language did not work this way, it would be practically useless.
Back to the dinner invitation. Did you notice a category about which there is total silence? Nothing in the invitation said anything about the category of dress. Total silence about that category leaves all options in that category open and so, in this case, silence allows. What I wear to the dinner, then, is my choice. If the invitation had said, Formal Attire, then one type out of the category of dress would have been specified and others would have been excluded. Since, however, the invitation was silent about dress, I am free to dress as I consider appropriate.
Scripture demonstrates this principle. This is, in fact, Pauls very point in Romans 14 as he deals with a category about which God had not specified. On eating food in the Christian era, God has not specified particular items in the category of foods that we may eat or not eat. Silence on this matter allows us to eat what we wish. While Paul says I must consider how my eating choices might affect my own conscience and my influence on others, he says I have freedom in the matter of foods (1 Corinthians 8:9). Because God has not specified in the category of foods, silence allows us freedom to choose any of the options. Even here, however, my freedom must be tinted with consideration for others and by other principles such as good health and expense. But with no options specifically directed, I have freedom to choose.
So, Silence Principle No. 2. If a category is left open with nothing specified, we may choose any options in that category.
Thus, in the Lords supper, the day is specified, but the silence on the time of day allows us to observe it at any hour. From the music category, singing is specified, but the style of songs, and whether we sing in unison or with harmony is open. In the category of what to teach, we are limited to what Christ and those He inspired have revealed, but, since nothing is specified in the teaching methods category, this silence allows us to teach in whatever ways we choose. Christians are told to assemble, but the length of the service, the place of meeting, and the order in which they arrange what they do is unspecified. Silence about a category, then, allows us to choose among its options.
In ordinary language, then, silence prohibits using unspecified options when particular options in a category are specified. Silence allows, however, when no options in a category are specified. Since God has revealed His will in the ordinary language of the people, and since the Scriptures give us samples of both of these uses of silence, He expects us to exercise these same uses of silence in understanding His message. We should neither restrict when God has allowed freedom or presume to do something beyond what He has commanded. Thus, silence prohibits options in a category in which God has specified and it allows in categories where God has not specified.

--Stafford North


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 172.243.203.84 on Jun 11, 2014 10:01 AM


 
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AuthorReply
Silence is NOT Golden

68.1.248.177

Re: The Silence of the Scriptures

April 1 2003, 5:08 PM 

Ok. Then give scriptural references for all of the following: (I think they are evidence of the CofC DEFYING "silence of scripture", but YOU tell ME.

church buildings
separate classes
benevolence
kitchens, fellowship halls, etc.
paid staff (except for the preacher)
pews
amplified microphone systems
announcements
nurserys
youth groups
communion servers
communion plates
those little communion cups
song books
the alter call or "invitation song"
order of worship
2 prayers during communion (1 for cup and 1 for bread)
mailed bulletins
video taping or audio taping of sermons
fellowships at church building

You see where I am going? Don't make an argument for "silence of scripture" when the CofC has already violated it 1000 fold.


 
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Mark Waggoner

66.141.123.207

Re: Re: The Silence of the Scriptures

April 8 2003, 8:10 AM 

First of all, the "CofC", as you put it, is not a denomination and has no central decision making body that can "defy" anything. If individual congregations violate scriptural authority it does not affect the credibility of the Scriptures - only those who chose to disobey or ignore them.

For silence to be prohibitive, it must be intended to be prohibitive. We have Biblical command and precedence for such silence. Leviticus 10 tells the story of God killing Nadab and Abihu DURING THE VERY ACT OF WORSHIP, as they "offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them." Note that they did not violate a "thou shalt not" but what God had NOT commanded - in other words, they did something God was silent about. In another example, Hebrews 7:14 is part of an explanation concerning Christ as being a priest even though He wasn't a Levite. Note what the author says, "For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests". God restricted the Jewish priesthood to the tribe of Levi, did he explicitly omit the other 11 tribes? In I Corinthians 4:6, Paul explains his logic in this section of scripture so that they would "learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other". Here is an explicit command to respect the silence of God's Word and the reason why - to not become arrogant with one another. We see this very situation in the church today!

As for your list, I believe that you need to review these items as Christians are to be benevolent (Galatians 6:10, I Timothy 5:8-16, James 1:27, Galatians 2:10, Ephesians 4:28). Christ offered two prayers when He instituted the Lord's Supper (Matthew 26:26ff, Mark 14:22ff, Luke 22:17ff). Are the remaining items on your list INTENDED to be prohibited? Can we tell? God told Noah to build the ark out of Gopher wood, did He tell him what tools to use? Does sitting in a pew alter our worship? Would it be "proper and orderly" to pass a single cup among a congregation of 300 during communion? Sadly, there have been congregations that have split over this issue. Expediencies are options we have to carry out Biblical commands, which categorize most of your list. To be Scriptural, these must not violate Scripture, and must be profitable, edifying, and not offensive. Is owning a building Biblical? In most cases - yes, as it is profitable in carrying out the Biblical command to "gather together". It might not be profitable for a very small congregation to do so; therefore, they would be free to meet in a home or rent some other facility. These are all ways to carry out the same Scriptural command.

Until we can all follow Colossians 3:17 and "do all in the name of the Lord", there will be division. II John 9 says, "Anyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son". By the way, the phrase "goes on ahead" rendered from the Greek means "progress". I, for one, would think twice before considering myself to be "progressive" when it comes to selective obedience of God's Word.

 
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Kenneth Sublett

63.84.81.137

Silence of the Scriptures

April 8 2003, 11:00 AM 

Mark, one of the FACILITATORS of the new--but ancient--view that the Bible is not the authority for faith and practice has been the failure to preach and teach on the subject.

This allows UP-JUMPS to declare in what Scripture calls a 'WORKSHOP OF EVIL' where prophets steal words from one another, to PRONOUNCE anathema against PATTERNISM. They are so far gone that they want to replace the PATTERNS with PARADIGMS (left as an exercise for the slow ones of the slow group).

They scream with "authority" that there is no such concept as COMMANDS, EXAMPLES AND INFERENCES. That denies that God has ANY authority because THEY cannot transfer their AUTHORITY without "commands, examples or inferences.

The rest of the BAND OF MERRY MEN just laugh and applaud like people needing institutionalizing.

One of the clearest things in the Bible and church history is that God COMMANDS and EXAMPLES and sane people can INFER. I have listed some of the PROOFS they cannot find here:

http://www.piney.com/ComExamInfer.html

Furthermore, they fulfill the statement of Jesus that He speaks so that mysteries hidden from the foundaiton of the world are perfectly obvious to TRUTH LOVERS. But, Jesus refused to speak in clear speech to them.

For instance, they deny that Jesus said anything about Music in the New Testament. We have looked at some of the ADDED RITUALS, some from Babylon, which had been added. Jesus refuted the musical water drawing ceremony which pleaded for help by declaring that HE was the source of this Water of the Word. The Passover from Babylon was refuted by His institution of the Lord's Supper. He knew that Judas was prophesied to be the instigator of the MUSICAL mockers who were Levitical Warriors. He CAST OUT the Musical Worship Team (funerals, weddings, religious festivals) "more or less violently" using a word "Cast out LIKE DUNG." And More "hidden" is that THE MARK of anyone who denies that Jesus repudiated music for those who must worship IN SPIRIT.

Furthermore, Paul RULED OUT machines when He declared the ACT OF TEACHING using THAT WHICH WAS WRITTEN. The melody (speaking of grinding into bits) was IN THE HEART which is the SPIRIT as the ONLY place God looks for our worship.

The NEW APOSTLES have confessed to rejecting the EPISTLES. Using Postmodern Narrative Theology they give THEMSELVES authority to GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN. Music has always been the device of the spiritual PICKPOCKETS who can steal your purse and make you clap and dance.

Jesus SPOKE WITH AUTHORITY. The Apostles saw the miracles as VALIDATING their recording of authority. The writers down through history accept the BIBLE as the ONLY source of authority for faith and practice.

The BAPTISTS whom the new apostles cannot SEDUCE believe that the Bible is the supreme authority.

The DEFECTS from the church of Christ are part of a historically UNIQUE band who, like Shelly's CORE GOSPEL, declare that ALL of the Bible but 7 facts ABOUT Jesus have been SIFTED through philosophy and the Bible Writer's PERSONAL AGENDA as they wrote their OWN version of the teachings of Jesus. You will not find anyone pushing the NEW STYLE WORSHIP (From Babylon) who accepts the concept that the BIBLE is the only authority the church has for FAITH and PRACTICE.

Jesus was wiser than some of the whiners: He honored ME by not thinking that HE had to authorize ME to get in out of the rain and snow. He stood up to read and had the decencey to SIT DOWN and dialoge. Seems like that authorized SITTING DOWN. That also seems to AUTHORIZE standing up for the silly.

But, Paul said, in effect, "Fools love to be fooled."

THEY declare that the SPIRIT MIND OF GOD did not have the POWER to preserve the SPIRIT CONTENT of the Words of Christ. However, they declare: "But, I can reveal the AUTHENTIC WORDS OF CHRIST. But, For a price, always for a price."

The UNIVERSAL Biblical and mythological (ancient sermons) history PROVES that once you fall under the MUSICAL RITUAL (Imported by Lucifer) you simply have LOST CONNECTION with the HEAD Who speaks to TRUTH LOVERS through the WORD OF GOD.

Ken Sublett

 
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Kenneth Sublett

63.84.81.14

Silence Nadab and Abihu

June 7 2003, 9:13 AM 

"Among the scholars" one of the biggest jokes is to MOCK the idea of Biblical silence based on Nadab and Abihu.

http://www.piney.com/Nadab-Abihu.html

There are two major events where people IMPROVIZED OR INNOVATED which Paul speaks of in insisting that for those who refuse to come before God with REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR, God is till a CONSUMING FIRE.

The rising up to play in MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai interrupted and changed the nature of the Tabernacle. God broke the COVENANT OF GRACE and sent a FIREY LAW to legislate for the lawless. Nevertheless, the Law would keep people from trying to approach God as a musical prostitute (Ezek 33).

Shortly thereafter, the prescribed laws of sacrifice were carried out by Moses and Aaron. Nadab and Abihu then grasped STRANGE fire and went into the most holy place and burned incense. God's FIRE consumed them.

The next step was to impose more laws including the SCAPE GOAT. This was a smelly goat sent away to wander in the wilderness to remind the people that Azazel or the fallen angel had introduced STRANGE fire including the use of mixed-sex choirs and instrumental music along with all the ARTS to steal worship from God.

Also introduced was the DAY OF ATONEMENT when even the holy precincts had to be atoned for.

Paul uses both these events to warn people that God is still God and we are still mortals. If we do not approach God with REVERENCE AND GODLY FEAR, God is still a consuming fire. The ZOE group invites you to a restoration of a CONSUMING FIRE with Lucifer's (Zoe) performing arts to steal the glory from God.

Ken Sublett

 
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Alan Savell

24.151.185.8

True Biblical Silence is permissive

June 3 2014, 7:33 PM 

I find this discussion very interesting. This post makes a good point,that God has specific and general commands. Commands like "Go into the world.." are obviously general and Christians are free to "go" any way that is expedient, walk, fly, ride, etc. Commands that are specific like altar fire brought by Aaron's sons or touching the ark by Uzzah must be followed and obeyed specifically. However,giving examples of specific commands that were DISOBEYED and punished are not examples of silence. God was very specific on what he wanted, and obedience is required. God was not silent on what he wanted. There are numerous examples of this. But what I cannot find are examples where God gave specific commands that were OBEYED and something was done in addition to being obedient and punishment was given. That is true Biblical silence and examples of punishment from this are lacking. The reason for this is clear in Romans4:15 and Romans 5:13. Paul gives some underlying principles about God's law (and lack of law), in the context of teaching about Abraham's justification and the nature of sin prior to the giving of the Mosaic Law. Paul states that"where there is NO LAW, there is NO TRANSGRESSION" and "sin is NOT CHARGED when there is NO LAW." That seems pretty clear, compared to trying to infer a principle of prohibitive silence from some OT examples of blatant disobedience. But if these verses are true, then it must mean there are examples of people being obedient to God's commands, but then doing things about which God is silent and not being punished.
There are several: the apostles and Jesus participated in synagogue worship throughout the gospels. Synagogue worship is a completely extraBiblical worship that is not authorized/outlined in the OT but developed during the Babylonian exile when Temple worship was not possible. However, this practiced flourished even after the return from Babylon, rebuilding the Temple, and during the centuries prior to Christ. No condemnation for this practice in the Bible. Also, Jesus was in the temple during the extraBiblical feast of Hannukah (John 10:22,23). No condemnation from Him for this feast that is not in the OT. Jesus uses the 4 cups of wine during the Last Supper/Passover feast with his disciples. There is no wine or beverage in the instructions for the Passover Feast in the OT. The 4 cups of wine,each with a significant meaning and blessing, were added by rabbitical tradition. As an aside, the cup used after the breaking of the bread is called the "cup of redemption" in this extraBiblical addition to the Passover instructions and Jesus makes this into the symbol of His blood in the Lord's supper. No condemnation for this practice of adding 4 cups of wine to the Passover feast. Another example is Paul, refering in 1 Cor 10:16 to the first cup of extraBiblical wine used in passover, "the cup of blessing". This cup also had a specific extraBiblical prayer/blessing that was said over this cup of wine. Paul refers to both the wine and the blessing in this verse. Again, no condemnation of the practice. There are more examples of obedient people in the Bible, following God's specific commands and doing other things on which God is truly silent and not coming under condemantion.
Is this not a clear Biblical command(Rom 4:15, 5:13), approved apostolic and Christ examples of synagogue worship, and necessary inferences from Passover practices?

 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

I think the synagogue existed under the patriarchal system

June 4 2014, 7:58 PM 

There are several: the apostles and Jesus participated in synagogue worship throughout the gospels. Synagogue worship is a completely extraBiblical worship that is not authorized/outlined in the OT but developed during the Babylonian exile when Temple worship was not possible. However, this practiced flourished even after the return from Babylon, rebuilding the Temple, and during the centuries prior to Christ.

The Godly people attended the assembly probably during the time of Jacob since he warned us not to attend the assemblies of the tribe of Levi. These assemblies were held on the Sabbath or REST DAYS: Sabbath does not mean a day of worship. The synagogue is well documented universally as a School of the Word of God. In the New Testament the only true worship concept is to give attention to the public reading of the Word for Comfort and Doctrine.

The tribe of Levi was turned over to worship the starry host and the godly people were quarantined to their local area so that they could not attend the sacrificial system which was Canaanite or Babylonish.

So, what we do on the Lord's Day is a School (only) of the Word (only) of God: a church is built upon or EDUCATED by the prophets and apostles. Jesus did not prescribe public rituals and said that "the kingdom does not come with observation." That means that it does not come with religious observations always LEGALISTIC using trained speakers, singers, instrument players who must follow LAWS.

I appreciate your comments. Let me take these bits at a time. The Spirit OF Christ especially in Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 but in other prophets says that God did not command the Temple or anything connected with the Monarchy. Remember that the elders "fired" God and wanted a king. God warned them and warned that He would not protect them. The captivity and death sentence because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai would be carried out: God gave them kings in His anger.

There are numerous names for the assembly of the godly tribes: Qahal, ekklesia, synagogue, church of Christ (the Rock) certainly after Israel's fall into instrumental idolatry of the Egyptian triad under the image of the golden calf or calveS. Because Abraham was to be a blessing to the nations, Jews hold that the synagogue always existed any time God had something to teach the people. The only spiritual covenant was made with God in Christ to Abraham. The tribal leaders had that role.

In Genesis 49 Jacob spans history as does Moses beginning in Genesis. Jacob commanded that people not gather or assemble with the Levi tribe nor to enter into any covenant with them. I am going to post two images because it is pretty difficult to format in my engineering fashion. All of the blue underlines are clickable on a text version which I can post as a html file. You will notice that Jacob speaks of the Qahal which is still a widely used word by the Jews for their synagogue which is a school. The qahal continued and the holy convocation which came to be each rest days was a reading only assembly. Both Jews and Gentiles were wise unto salvation because they attended the synagogue.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH him, being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.

After the fall into musical idolatry:

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

You will notice that Jesus STOOD UP to read from Isaiah and then SAT DOWN. The command in all of the letters called Scripture is that they be READ:

Col. 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

Pay especial attention to the congregation or assembly of the tribe of Levi. The tribe that Jacob cursed God abandoned to carry out the "worship of the starry host" after executing 3,000 of their idolatrous brethren. The prophets and Stephen make it clear that God did not command the Civil-Military-Clergy complex: they came along with being abandoned as a nation to Babylonianism to be restored according to Revelation 17f.

Jesus didn't condemn the synagogue or church in the wilderness because Christ the Rock ordained it both exclusively and inclusively. The Spirit of Christ defined the same assembly especially in Isaiah. Genesis 49 seems to indicate that the "covenant made with God in Christ" to Abraham included the command to TEACH and comfort.

[linked image]
[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 172.243.203.84 on Jun 11, 2014 2:21 PM


 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

Re: I think the synagogue existed under the patriarchal system

June 6 2014, 10:28 AM 

So you are not interested? I was going to do Hannukah which was people plaing lamps in their windows. I am not aware of a ritual in the temple. Besides, in John 8 Jesus had already declared that HE is the Light of the World.

QUESTION? Why isn't female "praise teams" leading and adorning the worship still ACapella singing. A capella points to the pope's castrated Opry singers. They sang ORGANUM but they sang IN the Sistine Chapel. Chapel derives from a General's goat skin CAPE: he split it and made one tent for Jesus and the other into a CHAPEL. With all of the goatish false teaching you missed reading the Bible to discover that there is no command, example or remote inference of congregational singing with or without instruments. The Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites prophesied with noise meaning that they were soothsayer-sorcerers. They STOOD IN RANKS under the king and commanders of the Army: the command was to EXECUTE any godly person or even a Levite who came NEAR any of their "holy" things or into any holy place. Of Course, from Acts 7 we understand that the LEVITE PATTERNISTS only make instrumental noise AFTER God turned them over to Babylonianism.

It has been noted that the GOAT SINGERS have done a slick job of inventing ACappella by which they mean OUR WORSHIP PERFORMANCE team. They make most people think that this is either "a capella" or congregational singing WITHOUT INSTRUMENTS. Therefore, the Alpha Goat mounts the old Cadillac without wheels and convinces those they have MADE DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER that if WE perform in our Show and Tell that is just what we have always done. Well, you can change the meaning of words like "sing" but it does not change either the Biblical Text or the historic words they jerked out to suit their purposes. For instance the Kairos Church Planting scheme with mothers hatching daughter churches won't let themselves or you know that KAIROS is part of the goatish breed involved in the tragedy singing to jerk your tears and snatch your purse.

The Greeks knew Magadizing which was the children and women chanting one octave above the men. The ORGANUM of the Castrated opry singers imported into the Sistine Chapel (named after a goat-skin chapel). Wile it was sung IN THE CHAPEL the style was ORGANUM or a pseudo Pipe Organ.

As you can see, once you start boiling the frog it is pretty hard to keep him from getting well-cooked. I am reading some old Fiji Cannibalism history and I was reminded of preachers with defunct spirits would CONSUME their own with a worse fate.

It is the testimony of history that religionism as in performing roles of rhetoric, singing, playing, acting or dancing MUST be performed by MALE actors or CLERGY but they must perform the role of women. The naked dance of David is defined as "performing the role of women" and he wore the Ephod which was a let's pretend Babylonian Vulva still seen with the Pope's head sticking through it. The male FALSETTOS (CCM) lost out when the exiled Pope heard the castrated Opry singers in France. ORGANUM is the style of singing heard in the PLACE of the Sistine Chapel.

[linked image]
[linked image]

Religious has always but more rapidly devolved into what history notes as a binding at the lips of Religion and Sexuality. They even boast about USING women.

The image above shows that the goal is to build up a tension and then relax it. The Laded Burden Jesus repudiated is defines as the "spiritual anxiety created by religious ceremonial" to which Jesus said the kingdom does not come. We have noted the Capella, Cantus, Delicatus connection in history. Carol Wimber of Fuller and the Vineyard PROMOTES the new praise singing to create a sexual-like climax JUST BEFORE the last act of worship "Giving of Substance."

That is why there is no Biblical or historical material you can plead to being a New Testament Christian. Jesus still asks "could you not tarry with me for one hour. No: they even SAY that the kids are exposed to music 24/7 so WE gotta give them music instead of the Word.


 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

Answer part 2: No Jesus didn't sin and give us the right to engage in instrumental idolatr

June 10 2014, 6:00 PM 

Also, Jesus was in the temple during the extraBiblical feast of Hannukah (John 10:22,23). No condemnation from Him for this feast that is not in the OT.

God never commanded a temple: He does not live in houses built by human hands neither is He worshipped by the works of human hands. The temple had been defiled in fact because wine, women and sexuality took place even in the presumed holy place. I am certain that lots of things happened in Jerusalem. The text says:

John 10:21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
John 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomons porch.


So, it isn't clear to me that any ceremonies were taking place. Solomon's porch was pretty much open to any and all. If Jesus had been inside of the Inner court, the holy place or most holy place He would certainly have been executed on the spot.

Jesus was there to reputiated the festival of lights: if you read 2 Maccabees you will see how the godly Jews fled Jerusalem rather than letting the young boys serve as musicians and prostitutes in the holy places.

Second Maccabees: Pay attention to the universal connection with homosexuality and all clergy priesthoods. That is why Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: In Ezekiel 33 Christ named preachers for pay, singers and instruments SELLING themselves in the name of God.

http://www.piney.com/2Macc.html

People enjoy slandering Jesus: here is what He came to REMOVE and not endorse.

1. There are several reasons: Hanukkah had no scriptural basis. The Book of Maccabees is not in the Hebrew Scriptures. So it isn't a Biblical feast but a man made feast.

2. Hanukkah replaced the original Feast of Sukkoth calling itself "the Sukkot of Chislev" and was transferred from September to December (2 Macc.1:9& 18) and (2 Macc.10:5-8).

2 Macc2:7 - In the reign of Demetrius, in the one hundred and sixty-ninth year, we Jews wrote to you, in the critical distress which came upon us in those years after Jason and his company revolted from the holy land and the kingdom

2 Macc2:8 - and burned the gate and shed innocent blood. We besought the Lord and we were heard, and we offered sacrifice and cereal offering, and we lighted the lamps and we set out the loaves.

2 Macc2:9 - And now see that you keep the feast of booths in the month of Chislev, in the one hundred and eighty-eighth year.

2 Macc 10:5 - It happened that on the same day on which the sanctuary had been profaned by the foreigners, the purification of the sanctuary took place, that is, on the twenty-fifth day of the same month, which was Chislev.

2 Macc 10:6 - And they celebrated it for eight days with rejoicing, in the manner of the feast of booths, remembering how not long before, during the feast of booths, they had been wandering in the mountains and caves like wild animals.

2 Macc 10:7 - Therefore bearing ivy-wreathed wands and beautiful branches and also fronds of palm, they offered hymns of thanksgiving to him who had given success to the purifying of his own holy place.


This was the worship of Dionysus which the Jews and the "progressives" worship: the always gender bent priests PIPED hoping that Jesus would bow and lament and dance. They wanted to initiate Jesus into the always-gay priesthood proving that Jesus WAS Dionysus (Bacchus) or the old perverted "wineskins god."

2 Macc 10:8 - They decreed by public ordinance and vote that the whole nation of the Jews should observe these days every year.

2 Macc 10:9 - Such then was the end of Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes.


3. Hanukkah was based on a fire festival -the winter solstice (Saturnalia). They replaced the temple 7-branched Menorah with a pagan 9-branched one. Nine was the number of the mother goddess (pregnancy lasts 9 months).

4. Because of instrumental idolatry God turned the Jews over to worship the starry host: this included thw worship of fire.

5. Jesus knew the Hanukkah miracle was a lie. They said that a one-day supply of oil lasted 8 days. It is not mentioned anywhere in scripture not even in the Books of the Maccabees.

6. Hanukkah was celebrating men who stole the throne of David, and stole the Priesthood of Zaddock, made military action permissible on the Sabbath, and killed 100,000 of their country men for being Greek sympathizers

7. Hanukkah focused on the temple so the feast was presided over by the Sadducees who denied life after death, denied the existence of angels, and had allowed the descendants of Esau (the Herodians) to take over the rule of the nation.

If you read Isaiah 1, Jeremiah 7 and Acts 7 you will discover that God DID NOT COMMAND the Civil, Military or Clergy complex: In the prophets Christ calls them robbers and parasites.

8. On the Contrary, Jesus taught a Gospel of peace and universal love for all men, but Hanukkah was a military celebration exalting warfare and pomoting the Jews over the gentiles.

John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Fathers name, they bear witness of me.


Jesus and His WORD was and is the LIGHT OF THE WORLD. Why would you think that Jesus FELLOWSHIPPED with unbelievers?

Matt. 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:
he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Phil. 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


The Light of Jesus commanded that we teach and observe WHAT HE COMMANDED to be taught. A Christian is a disciple. A disciple is a student. The WORD is the only resource and it is NOT silent in condemning self-speakers, singers, instrument players or actors. All of the religious craftsmen are called sorcerers and will be cast alive into the lake of fire--as we write.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 172.243.203.84 on Jun 10, 2014 7:33 PM


 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

More Notes on the claim that Jesus endorsed Hannukah Part A

June 11 2014, 10:05 AM 

In 2 Maccabees the Temple had been profaned or polluted. Hannukah celebrated the fact that they had PURIFIED the temple. 2 Chronicles 29 is the PATTERN for saying God commanded instrumental music but Hezekiah was PURIFYING the temple which was so polluted that the priest had fled. The Assyrian worship included burning infants instead of goats--that cappella fella.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

Allen Savell Major Premise is not true.

June 11 2014, 6:42 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

It's TRUE: Scripture hath NOT said "Thou shalt NOT mock Jesus right up to the cross. Reading Psalm 22 along with many historic agreements including the REPROACHES Paul warned about in Romans 15 implicate sodomizing Jesus as the Dionysus or wineskins way to INITIATE Him while the PIPE forcing Him to LAMENT and DANCE the ouchy initiation into the always-gay religious hoods.

Psa. 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa. 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa. 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa. 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.


H3611 keleb keh'-leb From an unused root meaning to yelp, or else to attack; a dog; hence (by euphemism) a male prostitute:dog.

The Religious-Musical-Homosexual connection is absolute: that is why Jesus defined A SCHOOL OF THE WORD: an Umbrellum or SAFE HOUSE from the spiritual terrorists. However the KAIROS key word means that they KNOW THAT THEIR TIME IS SHORT.

Isn't that enough NOT to support and defend those claimging to infiltrate and divert your church property: it happened to me the third time in my little town of Hohenwald by a guy who cannot stop lying TO God and ABOUT God.

 
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Alan Savell

24.151.190.223

Biblical Silence

June 20 2014, 10:52 PM 

Ken,
I appreciate your answers and deep convictions on this subject. Obviously, you have put much thought into this issue and are clearly very concerned about how it pertains to other practices, especially the use of musical instruments. I am a simple man and like to think that the principles and teachings of the Bible are clear and easily inferred to everyone, even those without advanced degrees or understanding of Greek and Hebrew. At its most basic, this idea of prohibitive Biblical silence says that we must be strictly obedient to God's explicit instruction (which I think everyone agrees) and then abstain from God's lack of explicit instruction. But it is hard to see in the examples of synagogue worship ( which is clearly more than a simple Wednesday night assembly to study the Bible), that there was any clear authority in the Bible for these practices, that were a major part of Jewish life and Sabbath and feast observances. Jesus and His family were clearly obedient in observing temple worship (Luke 2:41,42) but certainly engaged in the addition of synagogue worship. To suggest that Jesus, from His time as a child until His ministry somehow refrained or failed to worship as His earthly family did in the synagogue doesn't make sense. Did Jesus not honor His earthly father and mother as they almost certainly took Him to synagogue each week to learn, worship, and observe the 7 feasts? Did He refuse the extraBiblical Passover wine year after year because it violated the idea of Biblical silence? Did He not give tithes from the wages of His carpentry work to the local synagogue? I know these questions are speculative, but it is a reasonable inference that Jesus participated in all these practices.

As far as Romans 4 and 5, Paul is clearly basing the logical underpinning of these two teachings on the premise that God is just and will not charge a person with sin or transgressing (going beyond) a law, if no law is given. Paul is using this as a basic principle of God' s nature and it is difficult to see how it would be limited to the context of these verses, any more than other principles of God's nature, like "All His ways are justice" is limited to Deut 32:4, "God is love" is limited to 1John 4:8 or God's "word is truth" is limited to John 17:17. Like I said, I'm a simple man and when verses are pretty explicit like this, I tend to take that at face value. It would appear to me there are all the elements needed for command, example, and necessary inference for true Biblical silence not being prohibitive.




 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

The Bible and Historic Scholars defend CENI

June 21 2014, 12:09 PM 

Ken,
I appreciate your answers and deep convictions on this subject. Obviously, you have put much thought into this issue and are clearly very concerned about how it pertains to other practices, especially the use of musical instruments.

I am a simple man and like to think that the principles and teachings of the Bible are clear and easily inferred to everyone, even those without advanced degrees or understanding of Greek and Hebrew. At its most basic, this idea of prohibitive Biblical silence says that we must be strictly obedient to God's explicit instruction (which I think everyone agrees) and then abstain from God's lack of explicit instruction.


The model of CENI promoted by the Bible and the Campbells dis not hobble people. Rather, it liberates believers FROM those who need to IMPOSE something not commanded and not required into the simple School of The Word. Christ in Isaiah 58 defines the REST only. For the godly people the REST was FROM religious services held by all pagans worshiping the SUN which included SATURN. He did not exclude pews because synagogue houses had always existed in the larger cities nor did He exclude bathrooms. What He excluded was seeking your own pleasure and no one has blessed music with anything but pleasure at best and sorcery at worst. Then in Isaiah 58 He defined as NOT SPEAKING YOUR OWN WAYS as a way to restore the old paths. This CENI has been used in all religious groups including those who have a law excluding CENI so they can impose, like the Scribes and Pharisees, their own PATTERNS.

http://www.piney.com/Commands.Examples.and.Necessary.Inferences.html

Preachers don't have much time or incentive for Bible study: I find it hard to believe that people think that God has been silent on such a divisive issue as "making music" when He commanded that we come before Him in silence. Scripture is not silent but very vocal from the serpent as musical enchanter(ess) singing winding or twisting song whom Christ called (as Lucifer) the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden" to the end defined in Revelation 17.

John warns about the rise of the Babylon Mother of Harlots and the "lusted after fruits" as defined in Amos 8 and as the dogs encompassing Jesus as religious craftsmen, singers and instrument players. He calls them sorcerers using the same title as the Babylon Mother Goddess. He says that they will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire. The Spirit OF Christ revealed the Prophetic Type in Isaiah 30. Using the Jews going in musical processions to Jerusalem to burn infants, He says that the same marks of wind, string and percussion instruments will be the mark in sight and sound of God driving His enemies into "hell."

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

The ekklesia or synagogue is defined as A School of the Word: the Campbells called it A School of Christ. "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" was prohibited for the Church in the Wilderness because the only purpose of the Holy Convocation was to Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word. God never called Jews or Christians out for a "worship service" beyond the clear commands to "Give attendance to the (public) Reading of the Word for Comfort and Doctrine." The Lord's Supper was added as a teaching activity. If Jesus paid it all then I do not own tithes and offerings.

If you read carefully and define words Paul demands that the elders silence the cunning craftsmen or sophists meaning sellf-speakers, singers, instrument players or Actors. This is because Jesus said that God HIDES from the Wise or Sophists and Paul said that THE LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.. Only then could the "manifold wisdom of God be known by speaking the Word. In Romans 14 Paul silences all doubtful disputations or discussion of personal opinions. In Romans 15 he silences SELF-PLEASURE which is the Greek Areskos or Latin Placeo: this prohibites all of the performing arts specificial scenic, musical or rhetorical actors. THEN the command is to "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning" or "Scripture for our comfort." That means that God is never silent in associating all musical forms with people who tell God "I will not listen to your words."

No one was so archaic that they did not grasp that people who sang and beat on brass or cow hides knew that they were causing spiritual anxiety during which it was easy to steal their lambs.

The Law of Silence was invented and imposed by the Disciples of Christ. "If God hath not said 'thou shalt NOT use instruments, then WE have the right to add or impose and that becomes the will of Jesus."

The Biblical law of silence says that "If God has not commanded musical instruments then we have no authority to impose instruments aware that we are sowing discord.

The Qahal or synagogue or Church of Christ (the Rock) was ordained in the wilderness. However, as I have noted Jacob cursed the tribe of Levi and told us not to attend their qahal or synagogue not to enter into covenant with them. God did not command the Civil-Military-Clergy complex and it was David as King and the commanders of the army who paid the Levites to give glory to the not-commanded animal sacrifices after the not-commanded temple was built.

But it is hard to see in the examples of synagogue worship ( which is clearly more than a simple Wednesday night assembly to study the Bible), that there was any clear authority in the Bible for these practices, that were a major part of Jewish life and Sabbath and feast observances.

Jesus exampled the commanded pattern: He stood up to read from the prophets and then sat down and waited for discussion. The synagogues would normally have the scrolls on the pulpit opened primarily to the systematically-read Prophets. When Paul visited synagogues he was invited to speak. The synagogues had a poor box in the back for the poor only. Jesus commanded NOT sounding instruments when giving alms but slip it from your hand to the hand of the destitute. He commanded praying in the closet. Synagogues were normally open to take care of any need and provide a place for teachers to hold classes. By the time of Jesus especially the boys began attending school at about age 5. The only prayer was reciting the Shema which proves that there is just ONE GOD THE FATHER. Preaching or allegorizing was outlawed.

The synagogue as Qahal, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock) was defined as an ALTERNATIVE to the qahal or synagogue of the Levites. It has a two piece PATTERN:

EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or self-speaking people.
INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the WORD as delivered to leaders over communities as small as ten families. Exodus 18

Jesus and His family were clearly obedient in observing temple worship (Luke 2:41,42) but certainly engaged in the addition of synagogue worship.

Jesus was born under the Law and He said that it would not pass away until everything prophesied about Him was fulfilled.

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
Luke 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.


The Passover was not a public worship but a family activity: they would have bought a lamb, had it slaughtered by a priests, they would have roasted it and consumed it. Jesus participated in the LAST Passover, THEN ate the feast of unleavened bread at which He instituted the Lord's Supper. They DICTO or spoke A biblical hymn and then went out until the next appointed year. I doubt that Jesus followed the Jews who ruled as high bidders and drank four cups of intoxicating wine INTENDING to get drunk. I believe Jesus observed Passover at home or at Jerusalem and ATE ROASTED LAMB and bitter herbs. The Wine is a Babylon thing and I don't think the priestly family of Jesus ever fell into the folly: The command was to search for and remove all leven from the house and the godly Jews would have excluded wine as the produce of leaven. There is no evidence that Jesus and the Apostles drank four cups of fermented wine but used one of the cups of unleavened bread to institute the Lord's supper.

Jesus would have attended the synagogue on the REST days because He could not have walked out of the area although later He debunked the laws of the sabbath days travel.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH him, being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.

To suggest that Jesus, from His time as a child until His ministry somehow refrained or failed to worship as His earthly family did in the synagogue doesn't make sense. Did Jesus not honor His earthly father and mother as they almost certainly took Him to synagogue each week to learn, worship, and observe the 7 feasts?

No: he attended SYNAGOGUE but he did not attend the Temple sacrifices.

Did He refuse the extraBiblical Passover wine year after year because it violated the idea of Biblical silence? Did He not give tithes from the wages of His carpentry work to the local synagogue? I know these questions are speculative, but it is a reasonable inference that Jesus participated in all these practices.

The tithe was ONLY to be given to the tribe of Levi to supply a daily dole of food but only when on duty. Those who tithed had been given free farms (stolen) with vineyards, orchards, houses and animals. They paid a tithe of their PROFIT but only food grown on their FREE lands. Carpenters were not given free FOOD PRODUCING properties and therefore were not commanded to tithe. I doubt not that Jesus helped support the poor which would have including priests living in his area.

The Jews followed the Babylonian Talmud: they added the 4 cups of wine with the intention of everyone including children got drunk. Passover was usually a HOME or family affair and I am certain that He observed the Passover until HE replaced the passover.

As far as Romans 4 and 5, Paul is clearly basing the logical underpinning of these two teachings on the premise that God is just and will not charge a person with sin or transgressing (going beyond) a law, if no law is given. Paul is using this as a basic principle of God' s nature and it is difficult to see how it would be limited to the context of these verses, any more than other principles of God's nature, like "All His ways are justice" is limited to Deut 32:4, "God is love" is limited to 1John 4:8 or God's "word is truth" is limited to John 17:17.

Isaiah validates the Law of Moses (Temple-state) and the testimony or the prophets:

Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom. 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pet. 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pet. 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


These are not LAWS OF MOSES but LAWS of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles. I am not sure why anyone would have much hope if they violate all of the commands to SPEAK the WORD or LOGOS.

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Jesus said that God HIDES from the Wise or Sophists meaning self-speakers, singers or instrument players. Jesus didn't make a law which saith THOU SHALT NOT BE A HYPOCRITE.

Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites and in Ezekiel 33 Christ named self-speakers for pay, singers and instrument players. Jesus didn't say "thou shalt not be a Scribe or Pharisee?

I posted the Mocking Jesus example: Jesus didn't make a law saying "thou shalt not mock me" but I don't need one. I believe that if you musically mock Jesus the promise of the Lake of Fire means that it is a law: it is not THE LAW OF MOSES.

Like I said, I'm a simple man and when verses are pretty explicit like this, I tend to take that at face value. It would appear to me there are all the elements needed for command, example, and necessary inference for true Biblical silence not being prohibitive.

The Disciples invented THEIR form of the Law of Silence which meant we will IMPOSE at will if God has not said not to do that: we know when we do it that we will engage in deliberate sowing of discord.

Churches of Christ obey what they "think" is commanded and don't need a LAW not to do something radically different. I am working on the ACappella Fallacy here

http://www.piney.com/Everett.Ferguson.A.Capella.Singing.in.Early.Church.html

 
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Alan Savell

24.151.190.223

Re: The Bible and Historic Scholars defend CENI

June 21 2014, 8:08 PM 

Ken,
Again thank you for you comments. Some other questions: Jesus instructed His disciples to prepare the Passover (Luke 22:8). They did not yet know this was a special Passover that would become the Lords Supper. If they were not going to observe the 4 cups of wine with the meal, then why did they procure wine when they got the lamb, unleavened bread and other element to observe the feast? Jesus did not instruct them to bring wine . They must have brought it of their own accord because it was expected as part of the extraBiblical addition to the Passover. Luke 22:17 also refers to another cup of wine before the cup of redemption the Lord gives after breaking the bread. Paul also refers to the "Kiddush" or the first cup of the Passover in 1Cor 10:16. This is the "cup of blessing" and has a specific blessing used at Passover meal. Paul refers to both the cup and the blessing in the verse. All this clearly infers the use of the extraBiblical addition of 4 cups of wine with Passover as outlined by rabbinical practice in the Mishnah and later written in the Talmud. I suppose clear logical inferences can be disregarded if one doesn't feel they are "necessary" to support preconceived ideas.

I'm not sure I understand where you're going with all the Greek translations, and I think everyone would agree that Jesus does not want us to be hypocrites and wants us be true to His Word. Like I have said, I'm a simple man. With the idea of avoiding hypocrisy and "speaking where the Bible speaks", I am not sure how Romans 4:15 & 5:13 does not contradict this idea that God punishes transgression of things He has never spoken about or given law. It seems pretty clear and you haven't given any indication how these verses could mean anything other than what they plainly state. The ironic thing about this teaching from Paul is that it would not change how the CoC worships. It would simply mean that other worship practices in addition to the 5 acts of worship would not be a sin as long as they do no violate any other law or commands. Any practice must edify God and one another. (Rom 14:19, Eph 4:15,16). This teaching eliminates any self righteousness and false humility over different worship practices and foster more understanding among Christian brothers. It would mean some congregations could join together to meet the physical needs and share Christ with lost and desperate people. It would mean some would acknowledge Christ birthday during worship services in December or preach a sermon about having a Godly family on Mothers Day. And yes, some might accompany their Biblical singing with instruments. And yes, no sin would be imputed and no transgression committed because no law had been given.

 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

Re: The Bible and Historic Scholars defend CENI

June 22 2014, 10:07 AM 

Gotta go for now: we are doing "father's day" and a June 8 birthday and there goes the diet.

There is no way to justify the "traditional" practices which ooze out of preacher's schools and even universities. The ANTI patternist keep all of the old patterns (pass the plate) but ADD two or three more and triple the preachers unlawful dole. If all of the churches of Christ did everything wrong every time that would not remove very clear silencing of rhetoric, singing, playing, acting which defines the WISE or SOPHISTS from whom God HIDES.

Here to show the Passover-Unleavened bread. The Bread was connected to the Passover and we might assume the FRUIT OF THE VINE which was not to be the product of leaven. People who celebrate Easter worship ISHTAR. Ezekiel 8 defined the women singing IN the temple and the men holding their usual sin rise service.

http://www.piney.com/MuTammuz.html

http://www.piney.com/Woodmont.Hills.church.of.Christ.and.Jewish.Passover.html

[linked image]

 
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Alan Savell

24.151.190.223

Thank you!

June 22 2014, 11:46 AM 

Ken,
Thank you for your time and insight. Again, I have to assume that your persistent silence about Romans 4:15 and 5:13 shows that the Bible clearly speaks for itself. But unlike myself, even if you ignore what the Bible says, it will not go away. Thanks again. happy.gif

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32

 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

Re: Thank you!

June 22 2014, 5:16 PM 

Rom. 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom. 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom. 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom. 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom. 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


You have to go beyond the law of Moses to get the point.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

THE POINT: God does not impute sins based on the Law of Moses when the Law of Moses did not exist. God did impute sins to those who violates His laws which existed from the Garden of Eden onward. Those who were not ACCUSED of sin walked by faith which means that they OBEYED the laws of God which existed BEFORE the Law of Moses.

Paul is saying to the Jews that Abraham was saved BY FAITH because he obeyed all of God's LAWS given BEFORE the Law of Moses.

If Abraham had VIOLATED God's laws he would NOT have been saved because faith DEMANDS COMPLIANCE.

It was the Jews who said that the Gentiles had no hope: in fact, Abraham was uncircumcised when God accepted him and a GENS.

Rom. 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom. 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.


Sin and righteousness were imputed or CALLED OUT but NOT based on THE LAW of Moses: THIS IS THE SUBJECT: the Jews believed they were unique and the only ones saved. They did not think that they could sin and lose what they thought was a special role.

Rom. 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was NOT to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom. 4:14 For IF they which are of the law be heirs, FAITH is made void, and the PROMISE made of none effect:
Rom. 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


The Law of Moses CAUSED sin because those who had been abandoned to worship the starry host could NOT keep the LAWS OF MOSES and therefore they died. They were neither saved SPIRITUALLY nor damned spiritually based on the Law of Moses.

Rom. 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world:
but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Imputed is to be named or an accusation

Cain murdered BEFORE the Law of Moses but the Law of Moses did not ACCUSE him of murder because there was no LAW of Moses God called him a murderer and he was a murder and did not have to wait for the JEW'S special LAWS OF WRATH.

Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adams transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

That is because THEY sinned but NOT because of the Law of Moses.

The LAW OF SILENCE has no meaning in connection with instrumental music because God IS NOT SILENT: the problem is that people do not want to read the Word for its meaning.

If you think that everything is approved because their is NO LAW wouldn't that make you a legalist. Living in God's world we should always ask "by your leave." That is especially important since Jesus said that the kingdom does not come with OBSERVATION which means Religious "worship" services replacing the direct command to TEACH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING.

 
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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

Re: Alan Savell: The Silence of the Scriptures: Hannukah

June 25 2014, 8:37 AM 

Jesus promised trouble just for speaking the WORD just as He spoke it by the Spirit (breath) of God without METER.

They go viral when you post the views of contemporary scholars who were not ignorant of the split between godly and decent people and the BEASTS of the field.

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Ken Sublett

172.243.203.84

Jeremiah Beast Part B

June 25 2014, 12:43 PM 

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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