I came to this website looking for some good discussions on religious issues, but instead found a lot of bitterness. We call ourselves Christians, but then we are so eager to judge other Christians in a cruel way because they see things differently. Christians today seem to look down on other Christians in the same way that a wealthy man looks down on a poor man. As Christians we should be devoting our energy towards doing Gods will and doing the best that we can to live by Gods word (not our secular interpretation of Gods word). How can we hope to bring others to Christ, if they cannot see Christ in us?

Kim,

Bitterness is not the correct word to use. Upset, disappointed, scared, worried and following God's command would be more accurate.

You read a few postings and you made a quick decision. Is that how you are to judge people? If you had read the many postings on this site, you would have found out that bitterness is NOT what this site is about. Its about souls like yours. Yes, yours.

If you can't see that the Church is being devoured by Satan through the unscriptural and manmade changes, then your soul is indeed in trouble.

Jesus promised that these changes would come and we are COMMANDED to stand FIRM against them. Oh, yes...he knew that it would be hard and the weak would not stand with us.

The choice for you is whether you are going to stand with Jesus and fight the good fight by standing firm in his teachings OR if you are going to stand with man and his new ideas for what Jesus should have taught.

We've already decided and as you can see, the weak in Christ are not happy about it.

I am sure that you have heard too many times that to oppose false teaching means HATE or BITTERNESS.

If you are part of a large church you have LOST all right to discuss or question anyone. They call them community churches which means COMMUNE.

One big preacher says now that: "No one has the right to READ, INTERPRET or SPEAK anything about the Word of God" outside of the COMMUNITY. I can assure you that whatever they preach you would be a troublemaker is you tried to dialog or debate your preacher or massive staff or elders.

Now, here is about the ONLY Place you can discuss religious issues without being "ousted" from the inner circle or BLACKLISTED to silence you. So, go ahead and pose any religious issue you wish. Be warned, however, that most people want to discuss the Bible and not too much about personal opinions not based on scripture.

Now, the true BITTER people will call you hate mongers or bitter if you try to prove a point by using the Bible. But, that's the way it is and it will get much worse. So, take one of your last chances to express yourself before everyone is silenced. Don't expect to be treated with warm-fuzzies: most of us enjoy the give and take of debate. If you cannot prove a point without taking a verse out of context then you will be whacked pretty hard. However, EVERYONE should consider the willingness to debate hard issues as a compliment which you will NOT get to do at church.

So, never feel hated or intimidated. You should just grasp that if Satan's IQ is as long as his shoe lace he will have an agent in ALMOST ALL PULPITS. Where else would you expect to find them?

Don't worry about sticking your neck out because we don't know who you are unless you wish and no one will send you a TITHING BILL. Isn't that wonderful. Looking forward.

Kim,
Run away from this site. Run like hell. THEY ARE ALL CRAZY!!!!!
PPB already condemed you to hell if you go to a "changed coc". Is your soul in trouble, i think not.

Kent, why don't you take the lead? Isn't it your responsibility to lead? Run like you've never run before.

Kent,

Here are some things to think about this week while you are harrassing those who try so hard to abide by God's Word as HE COMMANDED:

Does it ever cross your mind that you are a perfect spokesman for the evil one? Seriously, does it not cross your mind that he may be the one causing you to be so angry - he would enjoy that, you know.

By the way, I have noted that every time someone uses scripture you say they are unable to debate you (see other threads). Per your logic, one can only debate if they are willing to throw away the Bible and argue over personal desires. Just curious, but what are we debating about then? I don't remember the Bible ever stating that man's thoughts/wants were what this is all about. You always take HIM out of the debate - always. I wonder why Jesus wasted his time teaching God's commandments if they were so unnecessary?

Here's hoping that you'll have a change of heart someday!

you fruit cake,
Im the devil, your so right! i'm the evil one.
Jeez, medicate yourself you crazy witch.

Kent,

Thanks but no, I'm not crazy. Your anger, crude language and disrespect for the Bible clearly identifies you as someone who works against God's commands. No matter how much you may try to twist the words of the Bible, you know that he specifically speaks about people who act as you do. He calls them "sinners", "false teachers", "worldly", "evil", etc.

If you are against God then who are you with? It's a simple question. That doesn't make me crazy - just observant.

Kenneth,

How can you exclude her from the conversation? Someone is wanting to talk to you about something. Get real. You just told her she has lost the right to discuss because you ASSUME that she is from a "large" congregation. I almost can't believe I read the words you wrote. Is there an open invitation to talk through matters here? Is it my imagination or is this an open forum...

Joe James

The spirit in which debate here is taking place is full of hateful condemnation, which is completely against all that Jesus stood for. The very few times that Jesus was angry was against people who were in complete defiance of God or those who were self righteous holier than thous. Paul did not warn us about people that intrepreted things a little differently or carried out God's Word in a different way. He warned against false teachers, who for the religious history buffs out there should very well know it was not people who were earnestly seeing God's will and a relationship with Him. It was teachers who were teaching things that were anti-Jesus or anti-God: mythologies; Jesus was not deity, just a man who did not really rise from the dead; anti-Christ; etc. etc, etc.........

In fact at one point when the disciples saw some unfamiliar people outside their circle teaching about God, they were unsure about what to make of it. They were not teaching false doctrine, they were just doing it in a different setting. They complained to Jesus about it, and Jesus said, "Do not stop them....whoever is not against us is for us."

There is no difference between many on this sight and the condescending, condemning attitude of the Pharisees who thought that anyone who did things a little differently from them were spritual trash. Jesus could not stand the attitude and hindering presence of the Pharisees. Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 3, "You brood of vipors! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath." All they cared about were outward symbols and actions. They cared nothing for relationships or the heart.

Quit making yourselves feel more high and mighty as the Pharisees did by belittling and condemning others as the Pharisees did time and time again. I'm all for having a forum to discuss opinions and preferences (as I have tried to do before), but let's leave taking God's place as ultimate judge of salvation out of it. Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."

I know some of you think that a worship service filled with emotion is a cause against worth dying for, but unless someone gets on here and starts teaching about Jesus just being a prophet, or that the Bible is just a handful of entertaining stories, or that Satan is not real, or that Zeus is going to strike us all down through the anti-Christ, then you are the ones that have no right to express yourselves and condemn others to hell.

To the contrary PPB.
I beleive in christ as the only one of god. He died and rose for your sins and mine.
It's the hardcore, toxic, coc, my way or hell's highway attitude of yours and a majority of the coC i object to.
I know, your going to say its not my way, is christs way.
I wish just for 1 hour, christ would come back down here and set you whack jobs straight that clapping in service, IM music, a beer or 2, and a bad word uttered here and there will not damn ones soul!

HERE IS THE DEFINITION OF A CHURCH OF WRANGLING BY PROFESSIONAL WRANGLERS RIDING ON HONEST WOKERS WITH A TEXAS SADDLE.

Lysias, Speeches Olympic Oration

"[2] But he, when he had crushed despotism and arrested outrage, founded a contest of bodily strength, a challenge of WEALTH, and a DISPLAY of intelligence in the fairest part of Greece, that we might meet together for all these enjoyments alike of our EYES and of our EARS, because he judged that our assembly here would be a beginning of mutual amity amongst the Greeks.

sullog-os , ho, of any special public meeting or assembly, opp. the common ekklesia. The EKKLESIA was a regulary or ordained ASSEMBLY like the church. The sullogos was a speacially called assembly.

As founded by Jesus and commanded by Paul the regular assembly was to SPEAK that which was written with ONE MOUTH and ONE MIND. There could be no disputing or dialog about NON-BIBLICAL issues.

"[3] The project of it, then, was his; and so I have NOT come here to talk trivialities or to WRANGLE over words:

"I take THAT to be the business of utterly futile PROFESSORS in straits for a LIVELIHOOD;

"but I think it behoves a man of PRINCIPLE and civic WORTH to be giving HIS COUNSEL on the weightiest questions,

"when I see Greece in this shameful plight, with many parts of her held subject by the FOREIGNER, and many of her cities RAVAGED by DESPOTS.

[4] "Now if these AFFLICTIONS were due to WEAKNESS, it would be necessary to acquiesce in our fate:

"but since they are due to FACTION and mutual rivalry, surely we ought to desist (faction) from the one and arrest the other, knowing that,

"if rivalry befits the PROSPEROUS,

"the most prudent views befit people in a position like ours.

---

Wrangling was the JOB DESCRIPTION of those who repudiated the WORD of Christ. In this passage they were FOREIGNERS or HIRELINGS who had insinuated their way as the MOUTHPIECE of the ASSEMBLY. The only way NOT to let the wranglers who are PROFESSIONALS corrupting the WORD which means "huckstering the Word at RETAIL.'

In Romans 14 Paul defines several PRIVATE practices which DO NOT fall within the real of the ekklesia which was ONLY a school of the Bible. Paul's assembly or gathering words are a form of the SYNAGOGUE and we know "that there was no preaching and no praise service in the synagogue."

The assembly which people themselves CALL for Bible study are not "community churches" or COMMUNES. They do not have the authority to involve themselves in regulating people's private lives, time and money. Because the DIVERSITY in Rome did include AROUSAL SINGING and INSTRUMENTS, Paul begins Romans 15 NARROWLY CIRCUMSCRIBING the work of the church.

They were not to PLEASURE One another and this points to the MUSIC used by all of the SECTARIANS in Rome to whom Paul writes.

This produces REPROACHES which from the prophecy we see the direct connect between charismatic singing with or without instruments and the NAKEDNESS or sexual perversion common in ALL musical religions.

He directly command that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH. From his use of the word ODE we know this further defines PSALMOS as "cantillation" which fits with Paul's command to SPEAK one to another using the INSPIRED TEXT.

He commanded that the only arena of LAWFUL DISPUTATION or dialog is THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. They read and discussed the doctrinal implications of that read passage as we know from the synagogue and from Paul's DIRECT COMMAND to Timothy.

That is the only way to GLORIFY God rather than the singers and performance speakers.

That is the ONLY way to keep the peace.

We know that WE take the Lord's Supper and GO BACK to our private lives. The command and practice of the early church FOLLOWED that patternism and THOSE WHO PROSPERED gave to those WHO WERE DESTITUTE. Otherwise,

There was NO LAW OF PREACHING.

No LAW OF GIVING other than ALMS

No LAW OF SINGING and NO PERMISSION to use secular songs PRETENDING that they are inspired. We KNOW that singing as an ACT was not introduced before the year 373.

Therefore, the WRANGLING is performed ONLY by those who give them an unlawful place at the FEASTS of the Saints and INSIST that no one else speak but must listen to his WRANGLING because it directly contradicts the approved example of Jesus, the Direct command of Peter and Paul and the practice of the early churches.

Machomai II. generally, quarrel, wrangle III. contend for the mastery in games, etc., pux m. Il.23.621 ; measure oneself with or against VI. of arguments, propositions, etc., to be in contradiction or inconsistent, VI. of arguments, propositions, etc., to be in contradiction or inconsistent, tria homologêmata m. auta hautois Pl.Tht. 155b , cf. Plb.16.28.4; Polybius, Histories machomena Phld.Mus.p.95 K., S.E.P.1.198, al

YOU are free to BE or ENABLE a PROFESSIONAL WRANGLER but WE are free to demand the right to SPEAK when they joke about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING our own property.

My only commission is to make everything beyond what Thomas Campbell tried to restore as CHURCH = A School of Christ and WORSHIP = to read and dialog the Word of God into an UNFUNDED WRANGLING INSTITUTION.

Try reading that one again, Joe. I informed her that if she is part of most congregations she HAS lost her right to discuss or disagree.

I informed her that THIS is the ONLY place I know of where she can suggest, discuss, cuss or condemn.

I invited her to contribute.

Now, what is wrong with that? Are you trying to silence me from inviting her to an OPEN forum?

Ken

My fault... You can see how I might have misundertood? I misread that you had said she "sould not discuss" because she was a member of a large church.
And no, I was not trying to silence you...

Grace,

Joe James

Yes, I can see.

I have been accused of MANY things but writing clear prose is not one of them.

Ken

First, I'd like to say that we are not members of a large congregation anymore. For many years, my family attended RHCOC, but we did not feel comfortable with some of the things being done there and are now part of a smaller congregation. We changed congregations because we wanted to be part of a congregation whose views are based on Gods word, not a secular view of Gods word. We have encountered a lot of criticism for our decision and I honestly don't care. I came to this website because it was recommeded to me by someone else who left RHCOC, and I have read many of the postings. I based my comments on what I read. I did not mean them in a hateful way, only that, as Christians we should not be so quick to judge everyone else. Christians coming here to discuss the bible and spread God's word, should not be attacking each others character or calling people the devil. Tell me what scripture gives us the right to do that? Tell me that is how God wants it done. You may be good at quoting the bible, but do you really try to understand what it means--what God wants? Many of you immediately judged me without knowing anything about me or my faith. I am open to discuss anything about the bible (as it is written) and I enjoy talking about the word and learning from other's points of view. Please do not try and lump me in with people with liberal views of faith because that is absolutely not who I am.

Kim,

What you are asking us to do is to go against God's commands. It would be so nice to sit back and just let the church fall apart and not worry about it. That's what you are suggesting.

Do you not see that your comment about "judging" is wrong? In fact, the scriptures tell us that it is our job to "rebuke", "judge", "admonish" those that teach in error. How does one go about rebuking without first making a judgement that the action/teaching is wrong? You cannot have it both ways - you can't sit on the fence or be "luke warm" as Jesus called it. Jesus tell us we must make a decision - to be part of the world or against it. He says you can't have both.

Here's the problem. The church is now teaching that we are "missing" the true message of Christ. That he was all about mercy, love, and forgiveness. That he just wants us to get along and all go to Heaven, however we feel that path may lead us. But that story is a half-truth and in essence a LIE. Yes, a lie. Because that is NOT all that Christ taught and it wasn't all pretty and sweet messages he gave us. That is the sweet words of Satan, not Christ. Christ is not one-dimensional and God has NOT lost his power or his vengence.

Here's some of what Christ ACTUALLY SAID:
Love, mercy, forgiveness, repentence, remission of sin, receipt of the Holy Spirit and entering the Kingdom AFTER being washed clean of your sins, AND
1) That God is a jealous God - do not forget how he flooded the earth, do not forget the man who touched the ark, do not forget Saddam and Ghomorrah. If he judged them so harshly, will he not you?
2) Those who taught in my name in error I will not know on judgement day.
3) Those who say they love me but did not keep my father's commandments will perish.
4) You are to stand firm in the traditions/teachings of the church as I have taught them or you will be lost.
5) You must WATCH for false teachers and sinners - rebuke and admonish them. If they do not stop, you must turn away from them.
6) You are to turn away from the world and not be a part of it. You are to be different. It will be hard to do and people will hate you - even your own family. But you do so for me.
7) You are to judge the world, are you not prepared to do so?

Where are these teachings at the new c of Cs? I've been to them and they are NOT being taught and are in fact, finding excuses for why they no longer apply. What???? Did God become weak or soft over the last few centuries?

If you had really read this site - you would have noted that the discussions center around rude and arrogant visitors who tear down the "old fashioned" c of C and pride themselves on the size of their congregations and amount of entertainment they present. You would understand that they are trying to tell others that this is what the Church is about and to ignore most of the teachings of Christ.

They are telling lies and providing false teachings to thousands. This is something you should be horrified about and not trying to find a way to play nice and sweet. They are not following Christ's or the Apostles teachings. Thats not judgement as it is a FACT. Simple for even my ten year old to read and understand. AS such, they are NOT behaving as God commanded and are causing others to lose their way. We should be upset, hurt, saddened, angered for those that they have betrayed.

All this site is asking is that you be a soldier for Christ. Put on your armor. We are in a fight for souls. This isn't some little issue. It IS the issue. American's know about Christ. They have access to the Bible. Our churches are in missions all over the World and teaching new groups of preachers every day. Evangelism is alive and well in the "old fashion" c of Cs and growing everyday.

Our problem is at home with those that people that have chosen to follow the wide road that leads to destruction. If you love them, do you not want to stop them from their self-destruction or do you love "harmony" so much that you are willing to let them continue on their path of error?

The church is a crowded theater, and the legalists on this site are screaming "FIRE!" There is no fire, but they want to cause panic and dissention by claiming conspiracies and church take over schemes.

What did the last post say?
"Evangelism is alive and well in the "old fashion" c of Cs and growing everyday."
It MAY be alive, but it IS NOT well. It's on life-support at best.
T
here are some Churches of Christ that are growing.
They are growing because they are good at evangelism.
They're good at evangelism because they are willing to make the necessary (and scripturally authorized) changes to reach the culture around them.

Instead of encouraging and helping, or God forbid, LEARNING FROM them, the churches who aren't good at evangelism allow JEALOUSY to eat at their heart, which is followed by one of Satan's most successful strategies: Accuse each other of error, Biblical fallacies, not holding to EVERY DETAIL of MY interpretation (even though I don't), etc... etc... etc... ad infinitum. Thus things like this website are birthed.

Should we teach that Christ is "all about mercy, love, and forgiveness"?? He did.
"Love God, Love Others, ALL other commands fall under these two."
I'm sorry for you if you don't understand what this means.

Napoleon

True Napoleon. Jealousy is ugly, and eating up the church. It's sad.

I'm sure God would be proud.

I 've gotta get out of here. When the Lord comes back, I don't want HIM to find me on this site.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Leegull,

This is not the first time you've said that—but you just can't seem to get out of here. I think you should really mean it this time. You're destructive to the church that Christ established. Try destroying other religious bodies for a change, and see if they'd welcome you. If not, please leave the church alone or found your own church.

Lighten up Donnie. People like Lee are the ones keeping us from going WAY over the edge of fundamentalism. Your jealousy of him and his freedom in Christ and his growing church are beginning to show.

It's really getting a bit childish.
"We don't like you. You're not our friend. You can't be in our club."
What are the Concerned Members so afraid of? Are people allowed to express their opinions on this site, or not?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nap,

Freedom in Christ doesn't mean what you think it is -- it doesn't mean freedom to do anything as YOU wish, such as destroying and polluting the church or wishing for the church to die. Believe me ... Christ would prefer fundamentalism to liberalism -- you know that thingy called "anything goes...."

Jealous? When I'm trying to stay as far away as I can from your diluted minds and distorted views of what the Bible says about God's grace, His plan of salvation and His will for the church?

No, we are not afraid of Leegull or Napoleon the Conqueror. We have allowed you to express your opinion, haven't we? And from your opinions, we've learned that you have nothing favorable to say about Christ's church. We can only understand that you and others are trying your best to destroy the body of Christ.

Shame! Shame! Shame!

Napoleon-
It is obvious that the legalists on this site WANT to go over the edge with their "fundamentalist evangelism". Seems to be working great. people are just flocking to it like crazy!

Don-
You are so smart. How did you EVER figure out that what I really want is to pollute and destroy the church, and hope it dies??? I thought I was hiding my true intentions, but I guess they just slipped out.
Are you listening to yourself?

"Believe me ... Christ would prefer fundamentalism to liberalism"

No- I don't believe you. HE WAS A LIBERAL! He spent his whole time on earth preaching against fundamentalism. It's in the New Testament. You should read it.

I don't think you are jealous of our views and beliefs. You just don't understand them. I'm picking at you a little bit, but I do honestly believe that you and most legalistic Christians do love the Lord. I think you do want to bring people to Christ, but your methods don't work. When you see people whose doctrine you don't agree with having sucess with evangelism, I think there is some jealousy there.

You do let people express their views. For a while. There is another, kinder website where a lot of people post that have been "banned" from this site. Anyone is allowed to post here until they make you, Rhoades, Crump, PPB, or Sublett angry, which usually occurs when they make a Biblically sound point that y'all have no argument to come back with. Then- they're gone.

Shame! Shame! Shame!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anonym,

I'm glad to be informed about other religions' successes with their evangelism [I’m such a poor reader]. Yes, it makes the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons and the Seventh Day Adventists the true religion because they've been most successful—just your kind of thingy. Let me know when you actually join their efforts, and please keep us posted.

I am not authorized to change the New Testament. Neither are you. Please read and study the New Testament carefully and compare what it says with your newly acquired or borrowed doctrines from other religions. In it you will be reminded again of Jesus’ nature to discipline—don’t get that confused with the shedding of his blood for your sins and mine. Freedom in Christ is not the same thing as God’s grace being misused and abused by many professed Christians.

Sorry, but you don’t understand what legalism means. By your definition, Christ and the apostles were legalists—and they certainly weren’t.

Enjoy the “kindler and gentler” website.

It's the old SHELL GAME: the pea is under NEITHER SHELL.

Jesus said: "save that Temple and BRANG people to the Lord." NOT.

He said GO preach the Gospel: the PLAN was to found SCHOOLS OF THE BIBLE and the evangelists gets that set up and gets ON his ass and moves on to the next location.

The ASSEMBLY was actaully very private affairs: the people went into SECLUSION to sing hymns (pray) and eat the Lord's Supper. Then, they dispersed to TEACH what they had learned that week to others.

Josephus identifies Agrippa's SEEKER CENTER and by stealing from the poor to feed the rich.

John identify's Apollo's (Abaddon, Apollyon) Seeker Center where they had all of the joys of life to SEEK people in to sell them a musical prophecy so they could STEAL their money. John identifies that in Revelation 18.

If you can find the church by LOUD and FLASHY then the operative word is Lucifer (Zoe) who is the "singing and harp playing prostitute."

Paul said that IF you want to find Jesus you will HAVE to leave the populace and go OUTSIDE THE CAMP and suffer reproaches WITH him. That is the meaning of KNOWING a Crucfied Christ which the Apostates and Profites claim is PREACHING only the cross.

So, by their FRUITS (fruits have always meant fruits) Ye shall know them and watch out for WOLVES (same word) who lead you astray for HIS OWN USES.

You guys are just the Cat Bite which I survived with lots of medical help: the Great Physician is applying the antiobiotics to KILL all the bacteria and other pests who recycle from time to time: Paul said that HERESIES Must come. Did YOU know that HERESY is related to the PLEASURING Paul outlawed for the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE in Romans 15. "Reproaches" are also which with the prophecy of Jesus meant to strip him naked to lust after his flesh.