where is the love? let's see what the Bible says.....
February 2 2007 at 9:22 PM
from IP address 207.200.116.198
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please, pardon me for grammatical or punctuation errors in the following post...
and if there are scriptures listed here which are taken out of context, please advise!
to begin,
I would state that there has never been a single person existing, (and there will never be outside of Jesus, who sits at the right hand of God in heaven) who is without error...
nor, is there a single body of believer's who is priveledged to be correct in all of their actions...but, we should remember/know this....
1 Peter 4:8 (AMP) Above all things have intense and unfailing love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins [forgives and disregards the offenses of others].
and, if someone claims to know the truth about anything, the Bible tells us this...
1 Corinthians 13:2 (YLT) and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;
the use of musical instruments in today's worship is one of many questions which arise concerning our praise, worship services and what practices in both situations about are acceptable to God.....much immature divisiveness has occured because of this and other questions.
here we read about the advent of certain instruments of music......
Gen. 4:21, And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
.......some say that since Jubal was a descendant of Cain the musical instruments were inherently evil...but,
Rev. 14:2 says, "and I heard a voice out of the heaven, as a voice of many waters, and as a voice of great thunder, and a voice I heard of harpers harping with their harps,"
.......apparently, musical instruments are found in heaven.
the following passage has been noted previously but, quite frankly, it has not been scripturally refuted as to why it is not applicable today....
Ps. 150:4 says, Praise Him with tambourine and [single or group] dance; praise Him with stringed and wind instruments or flutes!
......let's not even discuss dancing......
the Psalms are full of passages telling us HOW to praise Him and the use of musical instruments are NOT excluded...
Psalm 144:9
I will sing a new song to You, O God; upon a harp, an instrument of ten strings, will I offer praises to You.
Psalm 149:3
They praise His name in a dance, With timbrel and harp sing praise to Him.
Psalm 150:3
Praise Him with blowing of trumpet, Praise Him with psaltery and harp.
Psalm 150:5
Praise Him with cymbals of sounding, Praise Him with cymbals of shouting.
there are certainly person's posting in this forum who seem to be willing to LIMIT how our God is to be praised....personal opinion aside, and in Spirit and Truth, is there ANY passage in the entire Bible which can put a LIMIT on how our magnificent God is to be praised?
now, has the act of praise changed in today's church?
who are we to LIMIT, CHANGE or DELETE these words, given in Psalms, by the Holy Spirit...... after all, these scriptures listed are not in any way connected with the irrelevant Mosaic or Jewish laws....
...let there be no doubt ...it is GOOD to gather, as His people, and sing with our voices to the Lord!
Ephesians 5:19
(AMP) Speak out to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, offering praise with voices [ and instruments] and making melody with all your heart to the Lord,
.......some cite the lack of instruction in the New Testament toward using musical instruments, as grounds for avoiding such things, but when we consider correct interpretation, the instruction is found.
for the believer, many problems can occur in our "corporate" worship...
such as:
misunderstanding God's word;
dilution of the truth;
changing God's word;
inserting human opinion as fact;
and, intentional disobedience.....
other problems occur in today's worship services which sometimes are geared toward:
pleasing people instead of God;
entertainment of the masses instead of praise and worship to God;
lauding our own accomplishments;
and, holding on to or initiating worthless tradition
.....many other problems could be listed, however, they can all fall under the category of disobedience to God.
note, these problems are not caused by musical instruments or any other technical device, but are typical when the heart (intention) is not right.
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
here is a breakdown of some particular words used in this verse and these definitions have already been noted in previous posts:
psalms, 5568, a striking, twanging .....of a striking the chords of a musical instrument .....of a pious song, a psalm.
hymns, 5215, a song in the praise of God, heroes, conquerors.....a sacred song, hymn.
spiritual, 4152, relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ.
songs, 5603, a song, lay (melody or song), ode.
......Col 3:16 is an example of what we should do when gathering as a family to worship our God.
another question based on the previous verse and this website..."Where is the gratitude?"
we know this: praise and worship, in any form, has to come from the heart......
Matthew 15:8
"All of you praise me with your words, but you never really think about me.
Psalm 30:12
that my heart may sing to you and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give you thanks forever.
Romans 15:6
That together you may [unanimously] with united hearts and one voice, praise and glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
Psalm 32:7
You are my hiding place! You protect me from trouble, and you put songs in my heart because you have saved me.
Psalm 34:2
With all my heart, I will praise the LORD. Let all who are helpless, listen and be glad.
anyone who has proficiently played a musical instrument, knows the music can come from the heart.....and anyone who says musical instruments are of the devil, does not take into account that the devil can pervert virtually anything outside of God....
NO ONE CAN LIMIT GOD'S use of anything (including even using the devil) to bring glory to HIM....
Colossians 1:16-17, for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
how does God want to be praised?.......
Hebrews 13:15
Through Him, therefore, let us constantly and at all times offer up to God a sacrifice of praise, which is the fruit of lips that thankfully acknowledge and confess and glorify His name.
Psalm 50:23
The sacrifice that honors me is a thankful heart. Obey me, and I, your God, will show my power to save.
more exhortation......
Psalm 57:7
My heart is steadfast, O God, my heart is steadfast; I will sing and make music.
James 5:13
[ The Prayer of Faith ] Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise.
Hebrews 2:12
For He says, I will declare Your [the Father's] name to My brethren; in the midst of the [worshiping] congregation I will sing hymns of praise to You.
we know this, at one point the music did cease.....
Ezekiel 26:13
I (God) will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more.
Amos 5:23
Away with the noise of your songs! I (your Lord God) will not listen to the music of your harps.
Revelation 18:22
The music of harps and singers and of flutes and trumpets will no longer be heard. No workers will ever set up shop in that city, and the sound of grinding grain will be silenced forever.
but, while we are blessed and humbled to still be alive we repent and say........
Jonah 2:9
But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from the LORD."
we're told the trumpet will herald His return........
Zechariah 9:14
Then the LORD will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord GOD will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
Mathew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed. It will happen suddenly, quicker than the blink of an eye. At the sound of the last trumpet the dead will be raised. We will all be changed, so that we will never die again.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
.....is ANYONE going to tell God, "no trumpet blowing/musical instruments are allowed"?
there is no Biblical law inhibiting the use of musical instruments to praise our God......do not be inclined to make one.....
Romans 4:15
......because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression
Romans 6:14
for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.
1 Corinthians 6:12
Everything is permissible (allowable and lawful) for me; but not all things are helpful (good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power.
remember this.......
Philippians 3:15
So let those [of us] who are spiritually mature and full-grown have this mind and hold these convictions; and if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
.......what is our attitude?
Romans 14:22
Your personal convictions [on such matters]--exercise [them] as in God's presence, keeping them to yourself [striving only to know the truth and obey His will]. Blessed (happy, to be envied) is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves [who does not convict himself by what he chooses to do].
James 1:22
But be doers of the Word [obey the message], and not merely listeners to it, betraying yourselves [into deception by reasoning contrary to the Truth].
do not be ashamed of; or deceived by; what is proper praise for our Blessed Lord!...
Revelation 14:7
And he cried with a mighty voice, Revere God and give Him glory (honor and praise in worship), for the hour of His judgment has arrived. Fall down before Him; pay Him homage and adoration and worship Him Who created heaven and earth, the sea and the springs (fountains) of water.
Revelation 19:5
[ The Marriage Supper of the Lamb ] From the throne a voice said, "If you worship and fear our God, give praise to him, no matter who you are."
I would conclude by saying, the biggest problem I have noted, from the use of musical instruments is that it seems to be offensive to certain bretheren...and the apostle Paul discusses this (being offensive) in depth...
otherwise, I have seen in worship services where "choirs", "praise teams" and musical instruments are used, that these featured singers or players become seperate entertainers rather than the "united hearts and one voice" spoken of in Ro. 15:6...
one thing is for sure...God will correct the problem if we depend upon Him!
Thank You! Lord God, for our Savior Jesus Christ and Your Holy Spirit who teaches us all things! in CHRIST'S name! Amen
Love is keeping God's Commandments and never proof-texting.
February 3 2007, 4:03 PM
Thanks for offering some of the proof texts: I understand that it is difficult to cover up bad smelling things ASSERTED BY those who "take the bribe" and "oppress" the Widows and honest working people, but you have to do some of the CONTEXT study for yoursel. I will have to pick just one for now but if that one PROVES that music is the PLAY Paul warned about and the bongs and clangs are WITCHCRAFT I can prove that even if these people were NOT lying, it would have no value becuase LOVE TAKES NO BRIBES or passes collection plates to build THEATERS which Paul points to. Paul outlaws witchcraft and theater just as John outlaws SORCERY and when you see and HEAR it it is DEFACTO PROOF that the LOVE is the love of money which Peter calls corruption or adultery.
1 Corinthians 13:2 (YLT) and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;
Of course, each of these are isolated proof texts: to understand Paul you have to read the immediate and remote context as well as the definition of words. You will remember that i chapter 10 Paul had warned Corinth about rising up to PLAY which was musical idolatry or demon worship at mount Sinai. Because of this lack of love for the Word and the God who had just given The Book of the Covenant, Stephen and many others say that God "turned them over to worship the starry hosts." That was a FALL just like the musical fall in the garden of eden. In chapter 11 he said that "your assemblies do more harm than good" just after warning about the PROPHESYING WOMEN: these were the mad musical women in Corinth. In chapter 13 we have a context:
THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1Co 13:1
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1Co 13:2
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 1Co 13:3
If we were not spiritually disabled by MUSIC where every singing word speaks of enchantment and John used the word sorcery (Rev 18), we would want to know from the preacher several things:
What is it to speak with the tongues of angels? How did peope prepare themsevles to hear the voice of the gods or demons or angels? Why do we know that music was a primary inducer of ecstasy where scam artists got drunk of gas or wine and aroused with music to speak gibberish? What role did the priest and the musician play in "interpreting" and "versifying'' the oracles just up the coast at Delphi?
What is the meaning of SOUNDING BRASS and TINKLING cymbals and how is that connected to Jesus casting out the musical minstrels like dung?
Why do we know that unless you were breathed on by the Spirit of Christ the word "prophecy" or "prophesying" has to do with singing and music. What did Jesus mean when He said that God does not even know those who do the "lord, lord saying" form of prophesying and casting out demons.
Where were the "mysteries" of the mystery religions? Why did bowing to Baal when the Jews piped hoped that Jesus would sing and dance the Dionysus shuffle to be INITIATED. Even if you REALLY could do all of those things, the fact was that NONE of these charismatic religions had any love and they ALL sold you whatever message they had. Love does not RETAIL the free water of the word and dilute it (Isa 55): Peter equated that to adultery.
What is the meaning of GNOSIS? Who is the Goddess of the modern Gnosticism which is always MARKED by the "dumb jehovah" and "dumber logos" being forced to form musical worship teams to worship the Mother of the Goddess.
What is the connection with BURNING BODIES which was Molech worship which consumed Jerusalem and was also the Scape Goat practice of some religions. Can we GIVE our body to be burned to remove the sins of the nation AS LONG AS we have LOVE? No. LOVE never does MUSICAL PERFORMANCE in the face of a Holy God because it insults Him and OPPRESSES the "paying audience."
If you begin with the book you will discover that it was prophesied that all of these operators would be cast out when Messiah came. Remember that Jesus identified the HYPOCRITES as entertainment speakers, singers and talented instrument players. And that Isaiah 30 says that Hell was specificially prepared to BEAT people into it with musical instruments. How will LOVE trump that?
Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might. Isa 33:13
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa 33:14
H2611 chânêph khaw-nafe' From H2610 ; soiled (that is, with sin), impious:--hypocrite (-ical)
H2613 ch?nûphâh khan-oo-faw' Feminine from H2610 ; impiety: profaneness.
H2612 chôneph kho'-nef From H2610 ; moral filth, that is, wickedness:--hypocrisy.
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly;
he that despiseth the gain of oppressions,
that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes,
that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood,
and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; Isa 33:15
He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. Isa 33:16
Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off. Isa 33:17
Thine heart shall meditate terror [a bugbear, idol] . Where is the scribe? [roll keeper] where is the receiver? [Shekel collector] where is he that counted [celebrate, commune, mark] the towers? [pulpits] Isa 33:18
H4026 Midgal, from h1431 by analogy a ROSTRUM, pulpit, tower. Gadal, to TWIST, a place of honor, boast, magnify, promote, proudly.
Isa 33:18NIV In your thoughts you will ponder the former terror: "Where is that chief officer? Where is the one who took the revenue? Where is the officer in charge of the towers?"
Now, read some chapter one and grasp that Paul USUALLY begins with foul paganism before he COMMANDS what spiritual people do. For instance, in Romans the defined the moral corruption which RESULTED when they repudiated the WORD of God: he defines the MUSICAL IDOLATRY later in chapter 10. If we READ the FOUNDATION Paul lays in the first chapeter and LOOK where he POINTS (he always POINTS outside of the text) then we will discover that what we have in TEXASS was OUTLAWED and Paul declares it OUTLAWED along with NO CANAANITES in the house of the Lord. Therefore, you cannot FORCE anything Pauls says later to TRUMP his definition of perverted paganism and COMMERCIAL TRAFFIC which is the Lucifer Principle.
I wil stop here: this proves that the mega churches are RESTORING that which Jesus died to REMOVE: Woe to those who pay his bribes. P.S. none of the dead virgins PLAY literal harps and the angel's message for the LIVING is to "preach the gospel." Playing in the EKKLESIA or SCHOOL of the Bible under Jesus Christ when he died to give us REST is the MARK OF THE BEAST because the "horns" of the PAN beast are MUSICAL instruments to give POWER to little kinglets. That is why the book of Enoch etal proves that MUSIC is proof that people are "dead while they liveth."
let's start at the end of your lengthy composition..
you quote from the book of Enoch?
is this accepted canon of scripture?
...of course we know it is not.
mega churches are no worse than tiny churches.."all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"...this, Ken, includes anyone, regardless of the size of building or assembly.
and, God, (long ago before He allowed David to play the harp), not just Paul, declared idolatry of any kind outlawed, Ken.
Canaanites in the house of the Lord?
do you realize where the house of the Lord is, my friend Ken?
Jesus said this to the Canaanite, "O woman, great [is] thy faith, let it be to thee as thou wilt;' and her daughter was healed from that hour." .....apparently,Ken, Jesus accepted those whom had previously been denied....and so does the new covenant.
....yet, you, apparently would call on the revoked covenant to repudiate this word of our Lord to go along with your hate of simple tools (and, the ones who use them) made from the elements created by God.
on a side note, ...the Wright brothers father, a preacher, condemned the effort to build an airplane...because only birds, insects, elements, angels and demons could fly...literally anything can be likened to satan and his demonic minions, Ken
can you understand this, Ken...
"for in Him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and unto Him;"
....do you believe this , Ken?
...you talk of moral corruption that results from repudiating the word of God...yet we all deny the forgiveness that we are commanded to give....we all fail to show the love that hides a multitude of sins...we all fail to show love for our brothers...and, contrary to Jesus' direct command we all think we can "pull the tares", "remove the speck" and recklessly offend by what we deem is "the right thing to do".
correction of the believer has a simple formula, Ken.
you Ken, said, "Remember that Jesus identified the HYPOCRITES as entertainment speakers, singers and talented instrument players. And that Isaiah 30 says that Hell was specificially (sic) prepared to BEAT people into it with musical instruments"...yes, you are correct, again, my friend...this is something God will do...fire is also mentioned as punishment..but, I do like a nice warm building on a cold winter's day...and, fire, is required. because fire was mentioned in one place as punishment does not mean I can't barbeque my brisket...
you said, "How will LOVE trump that?"
...love will not "trump" the condemnation of our Just Lord of those who do not believe.
All He said was that "love covers a multitude of sins" and to forgive 70 x 7...it is not for YOU, Ken Sublett, to deny God's Word.
as I stated in other posts, there is definitely a problem with the performance oriented worship of God.
..I would ask, "who do we try to please ...God? or man?"
"Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father."
....anything can be perverted by satan, Ken....anything, including the highly prejudiced musical instruments....
you said, "being forced to form musical worship teams to worship the Mother of the Goddess."
....this is ridiculous..no one is forced to do this anymore than they are forced to author forums designed to persecute Christians and perpetuate gossip.
you said, "What is the meaning of SOUNDING BRASS and TINKLING cymbals and how is that connected to Jesus casting out the musical minstrels like dung?"...Ken, He also condemned improper use of anything... money, spiritual, gifts, etc.
I ask you, why does the word of God liken Jesus' return to the sound of a trumpet, or sounds from Heaven as harpers harping?...don't throw the baby out with the bath water, Ken.
it is not the instrument of music that is evil...what is evil is the desire for people to bring honor to themselves....that is it, simply.....have you ever been a victim of that problem, Ken?
you mention 1 Cor 10:7...I will tell you, the "playing" was more than a musical jamboree...and, I don't see people dying at RHCC, or any place else, because of the fornication of which Paul spoke of..let there be no mistake...God will correct His people.
I would end by asking for the proof that the fellowship with which you worship is perfect and guarded from the evil that permeates our world?
do you offer any proof?
...is there any proof that any gathering of believers is without sin?
...or, do you appeal to the sinners to come to learn about our Lord?
Yes, I know I quoted The Book of Enoch but so did Jude, Peter and others MANY times. Jude quotes The Book of Enoch who defines the MUSICAL IDOLATERS as the FOR WHOM God comes to execute judgment JUST AS He did to bring a FIREY LAW as punishment for musical idolatry of the TRIAD at Mount Sinai. That fits with Isaiah 30 which shows FOR WHOM Topheth or "hell" was prepared and Revelation 17 which defines the LOVE of the Mother of Harlots and Revelation 18 which defines them as SORCERERS. Whatever the sex of the sacred singers they "constituted the HAREM of the Gods." No, don't get fooled: God turned the Israelites over to Canaanite Baalism which in origin was the Mother of Harlots.
Rev 17:1 AND there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: Rev 17:1
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev 17:5
WHAT ARE THE MARKS OF THESE Sacred Prostitutes or Qedeshim in all religionism marked by Music even as the Nahash or Musical Enchanter in the garden?
Baal: Look to the Hills: Celbrates victory over Yahm
1. "Do not lower [your heads]."
2. Then Radamin does service to the Mightiest
3. Ba´al; he does wait upon [honor] the Prince, Lord of
4. the Earth. He does rise, he sets the table prepares food
5. and gives it to him to eat;
6. he divides a breast before him,
7. with a sharp blade
8. he does cut up a fatling. He does get up,
9. he makes ready a feast and gives him drink;
10. he places a cup into his hands,
11. a flagon into both his two hands,
12. a large beaker, great to see, a jar
13. of [men of heaven (D/G)/ sky folk (Ga)], a holy cup
14. such which should never women behold, a goblet
15. such which should never `Athirat set her eye on; a thousand
16. pitchers he takes of (new autumn) wine,
Or: 16. barrels it holds, wine enough (Ga)
17. ten thousand he mixes in - his mixture (D/G)/the mixing bowl (C).
Or: 17. to be mixed in ten thousand portions. While he is mixing it, (Ga)
18. One does rise, one chants and sings,
19. cymbals in the hands of the minstrel;
20. sings the youngster with a sweet voice
21. over Ba´al in the Heights
22. of Tsaphon, the North. Catches sight does Ba´al of
23. his daughters, he sets his eye on Pidraya
24. daughter of `Ar/mist/light; also on Talaya
25. daughter of Rabb; Pidar knows
B Col. ii
1. There comes she, bathed in the scent
2. of henna enough for seven maidens, in a scent
3. of coriander/saffron and ambergris/murex. Closes the gates
4. of the house does ´Anat and meets she the messengers
5. at the base of the mountain. And lo, ´Anat
6. gives battle in the valley; Mightily she cuts in pieces the people of
7. the two cities; She slaughters the people of the Western Shore;
8. She destroys the men of the Eastern Sunrise.
9. Beneath her like balls roll heads,
10. above her like locusts fly palms of HANDS; like avenging grasshoppers
11. are the hands of the quick warriors. She hangs
12. heads on her back; she binds
13. hands to her belt. Up to her knees she wades
14. in blood of the swift soldiers, to her thighs in the gore
15. of quick warriors. With her shafts she drives out
16. the enemies; with her bow-string the foes.
17. And lo, ´Anat to her house proceeds;
18. Betakes herself does the goddess to her palace.
19. But not sated is she with the fighting in the valley,
20. by her cutting down the sons of the (two) cities. She sets up
21. chairs for swift soldiers; she sets up tables
22. for troops; footstools for heroes.
23. Greatly she battles and beholds;
24. ´Anat hews & cleaves and observes;
25. Swelled are her innards with laughter, filled
26. is her heart with joy, the liver of ´Anat with
27. triumph. Up to her knees she wades in blood
28. of swift soldiers, to her thighs in the gore of quick warriors.
29. until she is sated she fights in the house.
30. she hews and cleaves amid the tables. Wiped
31. from the house is the blood of swift soldiers; Poured (out) is oil
32. of peace[-offering] (for peace & well-being) from a bowl. She washes her hands,
33. Batalat ´Anat, the Maiden; her fingers, Yabamat Li`imim: the Kindred of the Peoples (of Ugarit)/ Thousand (Deities);
34. She washes her hands of the blood of swift soldiers,
35. her fingers of the gore of quick warriors.
36. Puts back chairs with chairs, tables
37. with tables, footstools she puts back with footstools.
38. She scoops up water and washes,
39. in dew of the Heavens, oil of the Earth (i.e., fat of the land), rain
40. from Rider of the Clouds / which pour the clouds; dew that the heavens pour out,
41. rain the stars pour, spray the stars shed.
42. She adorns herself with murex [scarlet], one thousand tracts away
43. its source in the sea.
HOW DOES RESPONSIVE SINGING AND INSTRUMENTS WORK ON THOSE WITHOUT EYES AND EARS?
Singing over and over is called ENCHANTMENT or SORCERY:
Nachash (h5172) naw-khash'; a prim. root; prop. to hiss, i. e. whisper a (magic) spell; gen. to prognosticate: - * certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) * enchantment, learn by experience, * indeed, diligently observe.
Nachash "snake, serpent" with nshk "bite" provides a link between two verses in Amos speaking of the impossibility of escape Amos 5:19 and 9:3 - nachash often either carries overtones of the serpent in Eden (Gen 3) or of the mythology of Canaanite cultures (Is 27:1).
it was prophesied that Jesus would be so AFFLICTED by this same Anath Anan (h6051) aw-nawn'; from 6049; a cloud (as covering the sky), i. e. the nimbus or thunder-cloud: - cloud (-y).
Anammelek (h6048) an-am-meh'-lek; of for. or.; Anammelek, an Assyrian deity: - Anammelech.A god worshiped by the Sepharvites in Samaria under the Assyrian régime, along with the god Adrammelech (II Kings, xvii. 31). Anu was the chief of the old Babylonian trinity, Anu, Bel, and Ea [patron god of music];
Anath (h6067) an-awth'; from 6030; answer; Anath, an Isr.: - Anath.
Used in the NAS (92) - afflict, 16; afflict him at all, 1; afflicted, 22; affliction, 1; cry, 3; disturbed, 1; do violence, 1; force, 1; howl, 1; humble, 12; humbled, 6; humbling, 1; mistreat, 1; oppressed, 1; oppressors, 1; ravish, 1; ravished, 2; sang, 2; silenced, 1; sing, 7; singing, 1; submit, 1; treated her harshly, 1; violate, 1; violated, 5; weakened, 1;
Anan (h6049) aw-nan'; a prim. root; to cover; used only as denom. from 6051, to cloud over; fig. to act covertly, i. e. practise magic: - * bring, enchanter, observe (-r of) times, soothsayer, sorcerer.
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, De.18:10
"In an inscription from Cyprus, in one from Rhodes and in several from around the district of Carthage, there are references to important personages who bear the title Mqm'lm which we can translate as AROUSERS of the god.'" (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 247).
"A similar practice is attested in connection with the cult of Herakles-Melkart. [TYRE TYPE OF LUCIFER] According to Menander, as he is quoted by Josephus, the king Hiram, who was a contemporary of Solomon, rebuilt the temples of Tyre and, 'he was the first to celebrate the awakening of Heracles in the month of Peritius.'" (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday p. 247)
"We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from "Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).
23. Peckham 1987:84-87: the association of Astarte with the dying god, Eshmun, may well be related to child sacrifice, as Peckham; Robertson 1982:329. Given the parallel to Genesis 22, the tradition of Kronos sacrificing his only son as a part of the Phoenician cult looks to be related to the thriving business of infant sacrifice in Phoenician culture.
The mourning ritual connected with Astarte in KAI 37 and elsewhere, and the tradition of "raising the god" (mqm 'lm), identified as Astarte's bridegroom in KAI 44:2, in Phoenician epigraphs (c.f. the Eqron epigraph, lmqm, in the seventh c., where other indications of Phoenician influence are present), suggest the importance of the cycle through the underworld in this cult.<>
How could anyone doubt that when God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host including singing to arouse or awaken their gods whom Elijah chided might have 'turned aside to take a leak."
HOW CAN WE KNOW THAT THE MUSICAL ENCHANTRESS HAS BEEN UNLEASHED AS THE LOCUSTS OF JOHN'S SECRED MESSAGE FOR THOSE WHO "COME BEFORE THE LORD IN SILENCE?"
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. [seed pickers]
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Rev 18:22
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Paul in 1 Cor 10 pointed back to the musical idolatry of the triad and called it DEMON WORSHIP. Let's say that in the whole universe of Greek scholars--please advise ACU or give up your franchise--the can prove that CONNECTING THE DOTS is just the wackos of a engineer without a PhDuh in Babble, then LET'S see how one is so dogmatically certain that he has NEW REVELATIONS which will TRUMP all of the Bible and all known literature TO WHICH the Bible points for anyone who claims SPIRITUAL SUPERIORITY to proclaim a NEW, LATTER-DAY REVELATION and deny that it defines the PHARISEE just as all religious performance is defined by Jesus as the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES.
In the message of Paul to similiar CORINTHIANS; Fools love to be fooled.
Although I'm sure NO ONE has the time Ken appears to have, sitting on the computer night and day "guarding the church", but I do believe Kenny might have just found his equal...not as scattered or unintelligible though. I thought it funny that Bob commented on Ken's "length" of text, but that's how this "discussion" got started was a LENGTHY text followed by a LENGTHY rebuttal to Ken's LENGTHY comment. You guys stay at this for a page or two, won't cha?!
So how about that young man who was baptized Saturday night? Does that count? Do we think that the angels were "rejoicing over one who was lost but now is found" or were they too busy debating whether Christ's blood covers someone who was actually at the Saturday night service participating with instrumental music? Now that IS a tough one...(not really!) it is called G-r-a-c-e!!
The ISSUE is not the young man who--if he got baptized under the mental breakdown caused by show and tell--will regret it and will probably come to his father, as one of mine did after a Camp Conversion, and want to be baptized BY CHOICE. If you could BAPTIZE all of Forth Worth--Dallas that would NOT TRUMP perverting all known evidence and I am conficent that as with the Bible, the book of Enoch, Jude confirming and all known evicene you are AFFIRMING a fall from grace for which there is no redemption. Judas whos bag was for "carring the mouthpieces of wind instruments" as the MARK of triumphing over Jesus knew that, like Israel because of Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai, god has TURNED YOU OVER because you SUBSTITUTED machines and works for GRACE which teaches.
The issue is whether it is a SUPERNATURAL SIGN that a church can use music in gradualism with the secret agenda of confiscating a whole church and then justify that by perverting ALL of the Bibleical anti-music teaching and all known scholars before we began MANUFACTURING philosophers, musicians, dancers, singers, actors etal as PREACHERS.
The postmodern big-fat-joke-on-stupid-philosophers SAYS that it is ACCEPTABLE to LIE ABOUT ALL OF THE BIBLE if the RESULT is "we gonna save more souls."
That is the ISSUE and the evil one DIVERTS for that by BOASTING that we SAVED ONE FOR JESUS by the use of INSTRUMENTS which are MACHINES for doing hard work and producing SHOCK AND AWE.
No one with an IQ as long as their shoelace will see the DIVERSION as anything but trying to justify TAKING WAGES and riding tandem on the backs of widows and hard working HONEST people who are COERCED into giving their children's money to put INSTRUMENTS before FAMILY. i am sure that they had MORE conversions down at Waco.
THE question for ALL of the churches and ONCE Christian colleges is, do you REALLY want to say what you have been saying: IT IS OK TO LIE AND STEAL THE CHURCH HOUSES OF WIDOWS on the theory of Eminent Domain: WE have a HIGHER use for YOUR property.
Do YOU by your DIVERSION really want to SIGN ON to "lying about all of the bible" which has become endemic in the postmodern, missional madness, purpose driven world of people seemingly being driven mad with LUST for music?
So how about that young man who was baptized Saturday night? Does that count? Do we think that the angels were "rejoicing over one who was lost but now is found" or were they too busy debating whether Christ's blood covers someone who was actually at the Saturday night service participating with instrumental music? Now that IS a tough one...(not really!) it is called G-r-a-c-e!!
I certainly hope so - that young man was my son, and I was the one who baptized him.
It's kind of amazing you'd post that...I haven't been to this site in more than a year, and just felt a pull today during lunch to visit to see what the reaction to the instrumental worship was. I was almost put off and left - by Ken again - before I clicked on this thread.
I was raised as conservative as most CofC people. I began to doubt the sinfulness of instrumental music in junior high, but I never really said anything because my parents would have not been happy. I simply saw my very God-fearing friends from the denominational world who felt so inspired by the organ, or the band, that I realized that some people needed that kind of worship. The studies we had in church on instrumental worship always showed some pretty weak knowledge, IMO.
Rick's challenges have caused me to study these things more deeply than I ever have in my life. I was amazed when I went back to Ephesians 5:19, backed up from that verse to take it in context, and discovered that Paul wasn't talking about worship at all, but the way we live our lives! To take it to condemn instrumental music means that you should avoid ALL instruments in ALL parts of your life, not just at church! We have become so concerned that we do all the things the right way that we've lost sight of what God is really trying to tell us.
Ken, it's interesting that you mention the Gnostics. They were convinced that the way to salvation was to find the "hidden meanings" behind scripture - in other words, the path to heaven is in discovering hidden knowledge. You seem to follow that same general philosophy. Some of your "knowledge" is pretty obscure. I'd be shocked that God would put such a high value on knowledge that isn't so accessible.
All the changes at RHCC over the 12 years I've attended have made me nervous at times. When I've stepped back and honestly studied them, I've had no luck refuting them. We need to pull back, study the Bible, and work to separate our traditions from the commands of scripture. We harm God's kingdom when we make demands that He doesn't.
So, let me get this straight. Just because the Bible does not forbid instrumental music in the worship service, that makes it acceptable??
Absolutely not!!!
We are told to Sing, plain and simple, in the New Testament in reference to the worship service. The verse does not leave anything open to debate.
By your theory, since the Bible doesn't teach against using hamburgers and cola for the communion, I guess it would be ok to use those items. The Bible doesn't say we can't!!
Do you see how flawed your logic is????
Read this verse carefully..
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" Revelation 22: 18
By introducing instrumental music into the worship service you are adding a concept to the Bible that does NOT exist. I hope you enjoy your plagues. Rick Warren and the other "changlings" may say it is ok and make all sorts of excuses and interpret different verses to justify it, but in the end, those that support their ideas will find that their names have been removed from the Book of Life.
More on the subject below:
MUSIC IN WORSHIP
When people visit churches of Christ for the first time, they are often surprised to hear only singing. There are no instruments of music such as pianos, organs, drums, or guitars. Neither do they hear choirs, quartets or solos. Every member of the congregation is encouraged to join in the singing. Why are churches of Christ different from most churches in the kind of music they have?
Churches of Christ follow only the Word of God ( Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 3:16,17). They understand that we must have authority in the Word of God for everything we do in the work and worship of the church ( Colossians 3:17). We must not add to the teachings found in God’s Word. We must not leave out anything God has taught (2 John 9-11; Revelation 22:18,19). The Old Testament was God's law for the nation of Israel to prepare them for the coming of Christ
(Galatians 3:23-25). The New Testament is God's law for all people today (Hebrews 7:12; 8:6-13). Therefore, we must worship God today according to the teaching of the New Testament. We must practice only that which is authorized in the New Testament!
The only kind of music authorized by the New Testament is singing. Please note the words of the inspired writers of the New Testament: "And do not be drunk with wine in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:18,19). "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him" (Colossians 3:16,17). "Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name" (Hebrews 13:15).
Please note that these verses mention an instrument. It is not an instrument made by man, but one made by God. We are commanded to sing. This is the “fruit of our lips." Our singing must be accompanied by our hearts. We are commanded to sing and make melody in the heart. We must sing with grace in our hearts to the Lord. The only instrument authorized in worship is one's heart!
The New Testament tells us how God wants us to worship Him today (John 4:24). However, it says nothing about using instruments of music made by the hands of men. Therefore, if we use such instruments, we are guilty of adding to God's Word (Revelation 22:18,19). This is a sin!
According to historians, the church did not use instruments of music for several hundred years after the time of the apostles. In fact, the first known instrument of music to be brought into the church was one which the emperor of France gave to Pope Vitalian of the Roman Catholic Church in the seventh century. This was several hundred years after the New Testament was written.
Please note too the expressions “speaking to yourselves,” and “teaching and admonishing one another.” These statements show reciprocal action. This is action that we do to one another at the same time. It means that each member of the congregation joins in the singing. By doing so, he teaches and encourages his fellow Christians. At the same time, they are teaching and encouraging him by their singing. This shows that every Christian must participate in the singing as best he can. There is no authority in the New Testament for only one person to sing, or even a group to sing to the rest of the congregation. God’s will is that every Christian should sing and by doing this teach and encourage every other Christian. Special singing groups are an unauthorized addition to the pattern of worship given in the New Testament. Therefore, those who use them are sinning.
If we simply follow that which God has revealed in the New Testament for His church, we will praise Him with our voices. The whole congregation will join in this praise. No other kind of music is commanded. If we add mechanical instruments or special singing groups, we are not abiding in the teaching of Christ (2 John 9). We have added to that which God has authorized ( Revelation 22:18,19). This makes our worship worthless to God for we are following the doctrines and commandments of men (Matthew 15:9).
Jesus said, “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24). We must follow the pattern of worship God has given in the New Testament in order to worship in truth (John 17:17). Choirs, solos, and mechanical instruments are not according to the truth!!
Ken, your post is too long to respond to in full, but some brief responses are below.
1) Change in itself is NOT wrong. Gradualism is not wrong. It's the destination that defines right or wrong. It is a difficult thing to change how a church operates, negotiating change needed to reach the modern culture while not offending those steeped in non-Biblical traditions. Change is simply a fact of life; rapid cultural change is a fact of Life in our modern world. We must adapt or die. (And I'm referring to the CofC, not Christ's church in general.)
The meaning of heresy or what makes one a SECTARIAN is to introduce something NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY into the long-held views of the group. Common decency says that you need to go out and not have a hidden agenda and not out it until you have collected all of the money.
The JUST TRADITIONS is one of the BLACKEST of the black lies promoted by the SMALL band of changelings: The Bible OUTLAWS it by direct command for the 'church in the wilderness' and ALL church fathers and founders of denominations REPUDIATED instruments. NONE of the churches which fed into the Churches of Christ had USED instruments and Baptists were still dividing as late as 1900. So, to say that NOT using instruments is OUR HERITAGE OR tradition is the basest of insults explicitely stated in Christian church books which blame it on 'ignorant, southern, rednecked mentality.' It says to great Bible scholars (who loved music) that YOU ARE TOO IGNORANT to have arrived at the just singing position so you MUST have inherited it like AIDS. That is just a BASE LIE and I don't believe redeemable since they KNOW better. The Presbyterians tried that on those who CONTINUED to do what they had always done. I think you CAUGHT that from Rick probably saying it about a 1,000 times as he warmed the water for the toads.
Gradualism is well documented as ONLY necessary to do something you know would get you FIRED if you blew your covertoo soon. That is the agreed upon slinking system ADOPED from "navigating the winds of change." It has been USED on you for those 12 years knowing that he was leading where no one wanted to go until he stacked the ballots slowly.
The spirit OF Christ was not a NIT WIT but the Bible is a book of historical record and defines itself as the authentic record of those events. You learned from Rick's postmodern (hee haw) nitwitty theology that you need to UPDATE the record of, say, the Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai which caused God to WITHDRAW His grace and abandon them to that which they suggested. Postmodernism says GOD REALLY approved of the musical idolatry SO THAT the temple is OUR patterrnism for musical worship when ALL literates know that it was a pagan temple at a Jebusite High Place for the MONARCHIES animal sacrifice but NOT for the people.
Rick can twist Hezekiah's Reform (ask him: he doesn't have a clue to what I am saying) as a HEZEKIAH-PROPOSED animal slaughter as a POLITICAL MOVE to get people back to POLLUTED Jerusalem and get ready to be invaded. Rick said "God commanded Instrumental Praise" and that we would be DISOBEDIENT if we did not do it. Now, I charge Rick before the elders, God and the watching world with having LIED about that and 100% of the other "instances" where instruments are used ALWAYS as a mark of rebellion or in this case, EXORCISM of a Pagan-like Temple because it was NOT a worship center. There is NOTHING you can add in the way of HUMAN PHILOSOPHY (operating at the speed of light. Hee Haw) which will redeem Rick and you who slurped it down, hook, line and slinker. They have to answer NOW or LATER!
The CHURCH is not a TOOL OF EVANGELISM other than a DIRECTLY COMMANDED Synagogue or sclool of the Bible. Evangelism happens in the words of Calvin "when the lazy asses become ploughing oxen." You have to LIE big time to usurp body life, fire the deacons and hire a STAFF INFECTION to run an INSTITUTE which is NOT an ekklesia but an ANTI-Bible truth institution. You cannot need to UPDATE without repudiating the WORD which Jesus says fails to JUSTIFY THE FATHER. I will show you from a LONG 2 Thessalonians that you guys are a PERFECT FIT and I think JUST ON TIME when the LOCUSTS (musical performers) are SORTING PEOPLE into groups.
The ADAPT OR DIE is one of the big fat lies which Rick HAS injected into your mind USING what I hear as a psychologically violent form or rhetoric and sophistry as ONE of those Jesus called a HYPOCRITE along with singers and musicians. How can culture NEGATE the meaning of the words in the Bible. Churches of Christ grow about the same rate as others: the evidence has been posted that those using the heresy of Musical Worship Teams and instruments have not grown any faster. When the flash wears off they will move on and never pay the bill. Growth stopped when the PhDuh's learned how to fleece the lambs without collecting their OWN flocks: they are called HIRELINGS.
2) You assume I'm simply a drone following the lead of the Ricks. This is simply not true. I am someone who thrives of the challenges to my faith; they cause me to study deeply to know for myself their truth or falseness. I agree with perhaps 3/4 of what Warren says theologically, although I think his giving marks him as a man with remarkable faith and
priorities. I tend to agree, eventually, with Atchley about 90% of the time.
Yes, there MUST be several thousands: You have proven my point: Rick was 100% wrong about the deaconess HERESY and I have CHALLENGED all of you with the provable fact that "Rick lied about EVERY musical term he adduced to seduce." If you AGREE with that then Rick's tenure has NOT taught you the BIBLE. You would have to REJECT all of the Bible and the universal schollarship for these 2,000 years to agree with Rick. How is it that "charismatic" and "music" makes you REPUDIATE that because CULTURE HAS CHANGED. Human nature has not changed and people still THIRST for the Words of God and suffer the words of Rick.
If you have not been brain washed then Rick has wasted all of those years with his HIDDEN AGENDA driving his sermons, getting young testesterone-loaded deacons out of the way, preaching and PRETENDING to represent the non-instrumental churches, and KNOWING all along that he was going to have to do something DANGEROUS. The fact that he was not escorted from the pulpit during the first sermon 100% IN ERROR proves that his timing was better than others who have INFILTRATED and DIVERTED and FLOPPED.
Nothing I disagree with either man is what I would consider a "salvation issue".
There you go again, proving my point. "Hit haint uh salvution issure" is one of those SERPENT words so that you believe in BIG SINS and LITTLE SINS. The issue is IS IT TRUE.
I say that from Genesis to Revelation God MAKES and MARKS it as a SALVATION ISSUE. No honest Bible scholar can have missed the INSTRUMENTS as a MARK in all of the Satan-caused FALLS from God's Grace. If John says that the slick speaker, singers and instrument players are SORCERERS as slaves of the Mother of Harlots why wouldn't you see being a WIZZARD, or Enchanter or Sorcerer as a SALVATION ISSUE. The olden testament MAKES it a salvation issue because it is the MARK of the CROOKED GENERATION which parses to "worship using Rock and Roll." If Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus using the MUSIC which was OUTLAWED for the church in the wilderness, then why is being a JUDAS GOAT not a salvation issue. If Paul directly COMMANDED the word SPEAK which specificially EXCLUDES the use of music, why wouldn't that a salvation issue. If DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD is not a SALVATION ISSUE then there ARE no salvation issues: such discord God HATES and he will burn the discorders in Topheth PREPARED for the Lucifer types and those she could seduce with music (Isa 30).
I think that YOU think that it is NOT a salvation issue because RICK twisted all of the Bible and YOU trusted RICK because of his persona and THAT is not pretty.
I thoroughly believe that God is using Atchley as part of the effort to take the CofC and its strengths - Biblical knowledge and faithfulness - into a cultural relevancy to help His kingdom grow. Warren himself is a shining example of a person who denies our cultural materialism for the kingdom of God. I certainly don't need to agree with people 100% theologically to admire them.
I submit that YOU believe that because Rick told you that the SPIRIT told him to add instruments and the elders claim to be Spirit guided when Jesus made plain to all but a small band of church of Christ people that ''MY words are SPIRIT and LIFE." If Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG to fulfil prophecy and as a VISUAL AID, they what WAST that masked SPIRIT which told Rick to RESTORE the musical minstrels to REPLACE him as mediator?
Instrumental music in WORSHIP was almost UNIVERSALLY accepted in all of the aread of the Great Commission. Yes, they played them out in public and NO the authorities would not GET them for making music. There was universal CULTURE of music in perverted paganism but NO CULTURE under the Law for the synagogue or the church because you don't USE MACHINES to seduce people to Christ. No: you have made LOTS of people distrust INVESTING their money in ANY church of Christ program. You WILL take the name of CHRIST of the building as you MOVE to instrumental on Sunday.
How can that be when Rick as VIOLATED fidelity to the Word of God by TWISTING all of the passages about the BIBLE? How is that BIBLE KNOWLEDGE when you have THOUSANDS of people who can listen to ALL of that and not even get a whimper out of people who say: Whoa! That is not the way I read the Old Testament or historical Scholars. They all lie about Clement of Alexandria, why hasn't anyone read the REAL Clement and 100% of church scholarship which DISAGREES with Rick. Have you fallen for the Shellyism that "we are partnering with God to get" a NEW SET OF SCRIPTURES?
I see Richland Hills as the SECULAR KINGDOM totally devoted to the culture of materialism and greed: Paul said 'All for the DESTITUTE and none for the INSTITUTE."
3) Your arguments, even for their length, fall short if the basic thesis - "the use of musical instruments is against God's will" - is wrong. The truth is, you worry so much about issues that don't really matter one way or another that you're missing the key elements of God's Word.
If they were in the Will of God then GOD would have said so: the Apostles make ADDING to the word a MARK of a false teacher. If they were the WILL of God then why did He compromise that by associating instruments with Satan, warriors, sacrificial sacrificers, prostitutes and Sodomites?
If the word SPEAK defines "cantillation" or "in a conversational tone, or whisper" and EXPLICITELY EXCLUDES poetry and MUSIC how can you say that God did NOT exclude instruments. Being at least as smart as Ricky, He could have said "sing one to another using Jilly Joe and make melody WITH a HARP?" Don't we insult the God of the universe.
ALWAYS instruments are the Mark of Lucifer the singing and harp player in the garden of Eden who WHOLLY SEDUCED (sexually, says Paul) Eve. Do you need a LAW which says "thou shall not SING AS A PROSTITUTE?" Wouldn't that make you a legalist? If it was musical idolatry as PLAY at Mount Sinai which REQUEST God to turn them over to the musical worship of the wandering stars. Do you NEED a law which says: "Don't try to worship a SPIRT with instruments or YOU will be abandoned?" That would be legalism. If the Levitical Warrior musicians are said by the Spirit to make NOISE and proven as EXORCISM because that what what God abandoned the Monarchy to, do you NEED a law which says DON'T do exorcism in the face of Revelation 18 which calls it SORCERY? That spells RANK LEAGALISM. ALL recorded history hears God FORBIDDING the use of musical instruments or MACHINES for doing hard work and YOU and RICKY cannot hear a peep? Please take note: repudiating the Word in Hebrews 6 is ONE UNFORGIVABLE SIN. God sends strong delusions to FORCE you to believe a lie and be damned. ALL pagans knew that instruments caused DELUSIONS which they, like Rick, believes are the GODS speaking to them inside of their head. Ecstacy or being OUT OF YOURSELF was a requirement for the women prophesiers (Lord, lord sayers Jesus repudiated) to speak gibberish (praise songs) to be interpreted as a VOICE FROM GOD. History notes that for males to sing and play in a religious sense MARKED them as DRUNK or PERVERTS. And we know that the PSALLO or PLUCKING word always points to perverts plucking their harp: that is why Paul said make melody IN THE HEART which literates understood to mean "make the heart strings sing."
Paul said that if we DON'T come before God with reverence and godly fear we should worry that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE which is the Nadab and Abihu thingy. Is musicating with ROCK AND ROLL reverent with Godly fear. When Rick twists all of the Bible and all known evidence is there ANY fear of God in the man?
p.s. I understand that this is just an internet message board, and very few people have changed their minds based on reading someone else's post. I view this as a "sharpening of the sword", even if I don't expect to change your mind, and I thank you for the opportunity to post here.
We are PAST the mind-changing era and into the WITNESSING era because God doesn't burn people until he has warned them. But, lots of people ARE changing their minds: mothers now believe that subjecting their wombie to loud music is HARMFUL because the baby TOLD THEM SO and they couldn't interpret until the medical facts were presented. Peoplel are keeping certain children away from Disney because of the destructive anxiety from sight, sound and motion. I have had "worship leader" lay down their MACHINE and begin to study. The "giving for a HOUSE for the Lourdee" exposure is causing people to ABANDON their taxing by the church and even PLEDGES because you don't OWE people who will scam the next groupies if they scammed the last OWNERS. I hear from many denominations which the PERVERTED ROCK AND ROLL has forced them to reexamine the whol music as worship heresy.
No, that is not correct: this dialog about the Richland Hills Fall from Grace was read or looked at by about 800 people day before yesterday and I have had responses from denomoninations who are LAPPING UP concerned members. So, you are FAMOUS or INFAMOUS and people grant everyone the right to choose but even instrumental writers see this as treachery. That doesn't count the other pulpits and web pages over the WORLD. I would say that as MOST of the failure to grow has been CAUSED by disloyal preachers spewed out of the Texas colleges: they ROBBED us for Breaking the Church and now they want MORE MONEY to fix what they broke: sounds like my wife's Jeep mechanic. Most people have grasped the failure of the CHURCH GROWTH CULT and the NEW STYLE WORSHIP directly from OLD STYLE BABYLON. Now, we have invented the word MISSIONAL to scam people who THINK it means MISSIONARY. No, I would say that, agree or not, the treachery has LOST more members than Rick can ever suck in with Rock and Roll: that primary "F" word where musicologists know that you are just into VOODOO (John called is Sorcery, God called it wizardry and Zechariah says that Parents should kill their sons who CONTINUE this musical prophesying AFTER it has been used as a MARK of the First Advent when it CEASED until the Texas Arrangers RESTORED it.
Since I have probably the best collection of MUSIC=SATANIC in the world and read WHOLE chapters or thought patterns at a time and NEVER lift up a statement and make it into a lie by removing the context, I am 100% certain that I agree with the Bible and ALL LITERARY evidence including Babylonian tablets which associates it with the devil and ALL of the Classics which associate music with prostitutes and Sodomites, DON'T expect me to change my mind.
You need to DARE Rick to expand on ANY of the statements he made which I can prove are FALSE and YOU believed hook, line and sinker. I still believe that you are brainwashed because THAT was the DRIVING PURPOSE behind the nit-witty philosophers TEST to see whether they could RESTRUCTURE the church in their own image. You need to FORCE Rick to cough up some answers and I KNOW that this will expose some hidden persona and you will, as they say at our Little Dead Church in the High Woods, "git you sat on the back pew."
Rick and the Elders who ARE his board of Directors are OUTED and Christianity 101aaa demands that they give an answer NOW or LATER but I am dogmatically certain that they have BETRAYED their trust. Otherwise, there is NO truth in the Bible or ANY of the church fathers whom they also betray. You MUST not continue to be an enabler without READING the sermons and demanding proof: it it is NOT the truth then if you change ALL of the church of Christ it will NOT redeem you from what I believe is close to rejecting THE WORD and therefore beyond redemption: the bible USES instruments to MARK such people if you read context.
I have given enough to the "lord" in three places to retire on. I invested lots of time leading a grand body in Seattle and finally retired to one of the pleasantest churches with all of my old (remaining) school friends wending their way back home to retire in a paradise and die in peace which was stolen.
I have watched from a distiance my old church deliberately discorded so they could add instruments. Money doesn't count until you have devoted it to the Lord in a church in trustworthy hands and then seen it stolen so momma can rock and roll. I have comforted many from a distance and had three long-range personal visits. I am quite sure that one of the elders who always preached peace died in self defense.
All the time, the misleaders were looking to Rick and Mike and Rubel as LEADERS and coming to Nashville to Jubilee and Look to the Hills apparently to learn how to slip a church out of the widows' purse. Rick etal have been active in the Jubilee and the message brought back to my retirement church and destroyed it. I am quite certain that Rick and the mega-church and its elders has stimulated the jealousy to enter the church growth cult. Apparently most of your members and ex members were happy even as they sawwthe slow rise of discord.
I am the personal FLEECEE of the Change Movement which was cooked up by a few men involving a man who says that he is an apostle and speaks in tongues. The personal damage to my spirit can never be calculated. However, my teaching is not based on a grudge but trying to warn others--and it has worked--that there is no salvation is being big when Jesus made His promise ONLY to the twos and threes who come to REST and "learn of Me." Those words SPECIFICIALLY exccludes religious rituals of paganism and Jews which used music to INTIMIDATE people. If elders are trustworthy then giving is a grand thing but when elders have proven from coast to coast that they are not to be trusted with any more of my money the DESTRUCITON of my trustfulness I believe beyond redemption because there COULD BE no sincerity involved in the Cult of church growth. I WOULD like all of my DIVERTED money back and there will be an I.O.U. waithing before their bodies cool off and their names go down in infamy.
Yes, I would say that the success you enjoyed is the root of all of the woes of my early retirement. However, I have also decided that God drove men into being a witness against abusing faithful memebers and saying out loud "I don't care about grey hairs." I shudder.
I would like for some "believer" to pick ONE of the LEGS on which the Rock and Roll system was built and read the context and tell me that YOU believe what you heard.
Music FORCES you to believe what your are TOLD: Advertising 101
February 14 2007, 4:17 PM
I will begin at the ending because THIS IS the meaning of Wicca or "navigating the winds of change." Otherwise, Rick's agenda would have been OUTED (by God I am convinced) a decade ago because THAT was the Purpose Driven Cultism
All the changes at RHCC over the 12 years I've attended have made me nervous at times. When I've stepped back and honestly studied them, I've had no luck refuting them. We need to pull back, study the Bible, and work to separate our traditions from the commands of scripture. We harm God's kingdom when we make demands that He doesn't.
If you had been reading Concerned Members and the Purpose Driven Cult discussions you would have caught on before getting boiled in hot water like a frog. The Gradualism is documented by Plato and others because if OUTED the fact that without lots of softening up you would have had a testesterone explosion and TOSSED HIM OUT. The "band of merry men" have written along with others showing that you have to MOVE people out of their comfort zone. But Jesus came to move us INTO His comfort zone where REST specificially outlaws the anxiety-creating musical rituals. The Hegelian Dialect (well used by Machiavelly and Hitler) is to push to the BRINK but not OVER the edge. If they sense that they are close to being fired they "back off and preach safe sermons for a time." However, the Purpose Driven Cult says "never give up." You give it another shove and finally you have BROKEN THE WILL of people so that they Look and then stand and then SIT in the seats of the evil. Lynn Anderson laments that it took about 11 years to get people to alternate by SINGING during Lord's Supper. I can find almost the same words in books about Wicca. They know they can only do that ultimately in MASS MEETINGS like the Jubilee or the Tulsa Soul Stealing Workshop.
There is nothing in your memory bank from all of the sermonizing, versifying and classifying that would give you the AMMUNITION to refute Rick etal. The OUR TRADITONS is one of the big, fat lies about instrumental music. Rick can find no Godly approval in the Bible, all music terms condemn, he cannot find a church father or founder of denominations which does not GRASP what John warned--that music is sorcery because it manipulates the mind--and see it OUTLAWED and destructive to life IN THE SPIRIT.
NONE of those flowing into the Churches of Christ did not know that using instruments was sinful and negated their shed blood to restore congregational singing. Many Baptists did and do reject instruments. This has to be the BLACKEST LIE that the "acapella church of Christ INVENTED the non-use of instruments because they were LEGALISTS." Traditions included the Located Preacher, the Budget and Collecting from the poor to feed the rich. These TRADITIONALISMS came to fruit about the time I was born and THEY WILL NOT give up the TRUE sectarian traditions because they DO NOT have a GO BUTTON and are pseudo-evangelists.
However, this is the SECOND PART of the Hitler, Hegel "dissociation" which PROMOTES driving people into schizophrena by telling them that THEY are legalists, sectarian, hypocritical, patternists, fratricidal (and a half dozen more I have collected form Shelly sermons). This is psychological violence to make you FEAR not to agree with them so that it is EASIER to invent a NEW STYLE WORSHIP from OLD STYLE BABYLON. YOU KNOW very well that if you oppose Rick you will lose your role in the Purpose Driven Cult INNER CIRCLE and his DISAPPROVAL is the strongest weapon they have. I have not doubt that the elders have been INTIMIDATED knowing that the "pastor" has gained absolute control.
Rick's challenges have caused me to study these things more deeply than I ever have in my life. I was amazed when I went back to Ephesians 5:19, backed up from that verse to take it in context, and discovered that Paul wasn't talking about worship at all, but the way we live our lives! To take it to condemn instrumental music means that you should avoid ALL instruments in ALL parts of your life, not just at church! We have become so concerned that we do all the things the right way that we've lost sight of what God is really trying to tell us.
Rick is absolutely wrong not having a CLUE to the meaning of ekklesia or synagogue which "had no praise service' and met for INSTRUCTION only. If HE is correct by virtue of being GOD INCARNATE with the Spirit inside then ALL HISTORICAL EVIDENCE is absolutely wrong. The Postmodern heresy in fact declared that ALL TRUTH has evaporated. I THINK that there is not a single preacher who knows the name Paul called the assembly. One of the things Nimrod who had a musical worship team of women knew and all of history and modern medical science knows is that by USING music you disable the rational or spiritual nature and drive ideas directly through the emotions while the music is KEEPING ever "pleasure center nerve" and tone-discriminating brain cells busy keeping track. That is a DRUG OVERDOSE which they KNOW they are injecting into you. At the same time you believe what is planted in your emotions and THINK that you figured it out all by yourself. I don't want to insult you but the more sophisticated and urban people are the more susceptible they are to what John called "sorcery" which "puts out the candles" of the seven spirits OF God. When you pick up the flaky wakies (sermons) you THINK that you are in your right mind and deciding: you are not. The more sophisticated mega-sounds systems can in fact direct a message to you that you won't even hear because MOST music does not primarly work through the ears. The Sounding Brass Paul spoke of was in fact a receiver-amplifier of certain messages to certain parts of the theater audience.
I think that PROVES my first point. Rick knows better but the Christian Church always uses the "you break the law by doing this in the church so we get to break the law by introducing instruments." Again, it is a collection of the worst lies in history and they DARE not let you read the WHOLE STORY because these proofs always implicate homosexuals trying to seduce a young boy. By 'piping" hoping Jesus and others would lament and dance they wanted to INITIATE Jesus to test whether he was their ANTICIPATED Dionysus as the new wineskins Messiah.
I will back up later and show that Paul used a form of the SYNAGOGUE (not church or circus) and all of the evidence and universal history before the small band of latter-day prophets decided that Paul was NOT speaking of the assembly. Nevertheless, they lift all of your free time which Jesus died to give you and are trying to keep you hustling all week to take your money. The "not" singing externally is in conection with TEACHING. If this is not the weekly synagogue or ekklesia then there is no authority to meat at all even for teaching. Since both the synagogue and ekklesia outlawed "sermonizing" I am not sure where Rick gets the gall to take a check. If Paul is speaking of SPEAKING at the coffee shop then he STILL demands the word SPEAK which "excludes poetry or music" as common sense proves. He still commands ONLY the inspired text and Rick could not meet with the "BAND" to coordianate movements. He STILL puts the singing AND melody in the PLACE of the heart. It would therfore violate the direct command to sing and play instruments in private or as a profession. Like TWISTING all known biblical and historical evidence, trying to eleminate the public assembly they prove that they CANNOT TRUMP all of the twisted scriptures to DISPROVE evrey jot and tittle of Rick's three sermons. I find it astounding that that many people could LISTEN to those three sermons and not yell WHOA! Well, I have answered my question: the threatening rhetoric, the gradualism to inject you with venum and the loud preaching and singing meant that you DID NOT even listen to Rick: it filtered into yoru emotions, you believed the lies and you THINK that you thought it up. I have reviewed Rubel Shelly's posted sermons and people who listened called me a liar for saying what was PRINTED FOR PUBLICATION. THAT' why John and all of the musical terms call it SORCERY. You are being bewitched and things like the Emerging Church of Christ deliberately use terms and ACTS identical to Wicca or Neo-paganism.
Ken, it's interesting that you mention the Gnostics. They were convinced that the way to salvation was to find the "hidden meanings" behind scripture - in other words, the path to heaven is in discovering hidden knowledge. You seem to follow that same general philosophy. Some of your "knowledge" is pretty obscure. I'd be shocked that God would put such a high value on knowledge that isn't so accessible.
God hid the meaning IN PLAIN SIGHT to fool the professionals (Isa 48) by using PARABLES: surely I get to claim that Jesus said that this was FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Most of the mystery is hidden in WORDS: wasn't that slick of God. There are a couple of ways to grasp the meaning: the first is NOT to pull concepts out of context like Rick did to prach that "God COMMANDED instrumental praise" and "we should not be disobedient." The second is to be Old Testament Timeline Literate which you will never procure from a college so that you don't just look SILLY. Another way it to look at the definition of Words both in English and in the original languages. Minimal common sense knows that you CANNOT speak and sing at the same time and you CANNOT teach with the mind disabled by complex harmony. Then you define the word SPEAK and you fire the president for idocy if he gets up and makes up words and SINGS the State of the Union message with the Marine Band in the background. Then, you look up definitions and see that (praise the Lord) the words for SPEAK specificially EXCLUDES poetry or music which parse to SORCERY. If you look up the word PSALLO it means to pull WITH THE FINGERS and NOT with a plectrum. So, what slick willy can halluciante the guitar pick, trumpet, cymbals (locusts) or any musical instrument to "make harmony." You in fact DISOBEY PAUL even if you hallucinate PSALLO to be a music word and the blow the flute (Hebrew meaning to blow the flute, steal your inheritance, pollute or prostitute.). So to MAKE MUSIC in the face of a Holy God you just have to INVENT THE WHOLE thing and you have the Bible declaring that SATAN MAKES YOU DO IT.
I think that the GNOSIS of the SOPHISTS was "experiental knowledge" and OPPOSITE to the knowledge OF and FROM God. Gnosis is what Rick claims by having the SPIRIT PERSON (teaches polytheism) instruct him 'beyond the sacred page.' All of the musical rituals were AIMED at driving the women (or strange males) into a frenzy which you probably have witnessed. That is what Paul calls MADNESS as he addressed the uncovered prophesiers (singers and musicians) as being MAD. Harlod Bloom excluding churches of Christ but including the Disciples and Baptists calls them "a unique American religion, gnostic with NO connection to historic Christianity."
WISDOM or SOPHIA is defined as the LOGOS or WORD. It is quite logical that when God is manifest in the world He has his WORD and WISDOM with Him. God Knows, Speaks and Blows forth His Breath or Spirit. LOGOS means a "rational argument" and "spiritual worship" means "rational worship" in the HUMAN SPIRIT which is the only place God seeks us in silence.
As the BRANCH of the Menorah in the Holy Place--where no singer or musician could enter on the penalty of death--Jesus is the LIGHT of the world with the seven "flickering" lamps on the Lampstand.
AND there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isaiah 11:1
And the spirit OF the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING the spirit of COUNSEL and MIGHT the spirit of KNOWLEDGE and of the FEAR of the Lord; Isaiah 11:2
And shall make him of QUICK UNDERSTANDING (spiritual) in the fear of the Lord:
and he shall NOT judge after the sight of his eyes,
neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isaiah 11:3
But with righteousness shall he judge the POOR, [Poor means destitute: Rick doesn't qualify]
and reprove with equity for the MEEK of the earth: [Well? I hear arrogance and threat]
and he shall SMITE the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. Isaiah 11:4
That proves that the SPIRIT is the WORD (John 6:63) and not a teeny fella who invades Rick's Mind. Do you like KoolAid? The Word of Christ is the Sword of the Spirit and by outlawing CARNAL WEAPONS Paul outlaws LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS where I have shown you that MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS are MACHINES for "doing hard labor" or for creating SHOCK AND AWE intended to induce 'fright' which the outburst of applause really means by the CLAIM that they were bringing down God into their presence.
And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. Isaiah 11:5
Jesus said "My WORD is SPIRIT and LIFE." Therefore, the SPIRIT of Christ or the Living Word speaks through the Written Word only when we let Him speak when we "teach that which has been taught."
Paul drew an identity between the SPIRIT in Ephesians 5, the Word of Christ in Colossiand 3 and "that which is written or Scripture" where he defines the SYNAGOGUE in Romans 14 AFTER outlawing SELF-PLEASING which implicates loud singing and instruments which are a REPROACH to JesusChrist who meets so we can LEARN OF HIM which happens only when the "elders teach that WHICH HAS been taught."
If Rick is on the straight and narrow then he WILL print the three sermons in their totality and I will go ON AND ON and prove that he did not even QUOTE the proof text but AGRESSIVELY ASSERTED a TWISTED interpretation of EVERY QUOTATION. I am sure that he lifted it from the Christian Church people he has been working with. He MUST give an answer NOW or LATER because the hallucination about the evaporation of the Bible Text because things change at the speed of light disqualifies him from being a TEACHER who has stacked up lots of JUDGMENT. If not, perhaps you can do a transcript so you can READ it outside of the blather of rhetoric and being DISSOCIATED by the music. I can prove that he MESSED UP and all to give him authority to SOW MASSIVE DISCORD among peaceable bretheren. If I let one of my children be subject to what is ungodly and destrucvie to the tender spirit I would turn myself in for child molestation.
You can contact me on any question and I don't sell e-mails. You need to collect some like-minded people and do your own studies out of the REAL Bible and not filtered through some philosopher. I have most of the historical records on music, beginning with clay tablets maybe 3,000 years older than Moses and I can assure you that Rick and band are FLYING IN THE FACE of all known evidence. What comes up in THEIR MIND is NOT the holy spirit whose name is Jesus Christ the Righteous who "cast out the musical minstrels like dung."