Because of the SHOTGUN of all of the proof texts people use to justify deliberately sowing discord, I think I need a separate thread to answere many of Bob Hunters list which will not TRUMP the universal association of religious music with Lucifer, warriors, prostitutes and Sodomites. The HARPS and INCENSE are both the "fruit of the lips" because NO singer or musician could even ENTER into the Holy Place as a type of the body or church of Christ without being EXECUTED just like the musical idolaters at Mount Sinai. Of Revelation 14. Material gets long and NOT READABLE when you post lots of Scriture and literary evidence to prove that the latter-day people who hear the SPIRIT tell them to violate all that the Spirit OF Christ taught from Genesis to Revelation. I am NOT impressed when people get VISIONS or hear AUDIBLE VOICES or have the spirit "person" tell them to slowly DIVERT a church away from truth.

Note that the 144,000 are in the true ZION which is not Jerusalem because Scripture equates literal Jerusalem to Egypt, Law, Slavery and SODOM. The Book of Enoch which Jude used and which tells us FOR WHOM God comes with ten thousands of his angels to execute judgment: those who permit themselves to leave the presence of the Living Word and join the Cainites in mixec-sex choirs, instrumental music etal which LED to sexuality and homosexuality. Sorry, I know that is not loving but I look forward to finding a SINGLE EXCEPTION. These were MARKED by Satan and I think you can see it on their shamed but unable to repent faces. Love is telling the truth and obeying God's commandments and NOT be MARKED and blinded.

AND I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Fathers name written in their foreheads. Rev 14:1

The Mark of the Beast is the Father or Lord of the Agora or marketplace TO WHICH all of the obscene and commercial activities were CONFINED. I have noted that PSALLO speaks of the red-painted rope used to MARK those who tarried around the market-place where Jesus places the musicians and where APOLLO was Lord of the Agora. The ekklesia was for SPEAKING ONLY and dialog by the common people which means SPEAK one to another using "that which is WRITTEN." Now, no one with the Father's mark can misunderstand that.

What JOHN heard was from heaven: John was IN the spirit on the Lord's Day (not Saturday) and therefore heard in HIS SPIRIT.

And I heard a SOUND from heaven LIKE the roar of rushing waters
and LIKE a loud peal of thunder.
The sound I heard was
LIKE that of harpists playing their harps. Rev 14:2NIV

And I heard a voice from heaven, LIKE the sound of many waters and LIKE the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was LIKEthe sound of harpists playing on their harps. Rev 14:2NAS

Why DON'T you bring in a THUNDER MACHINE? The sounding brass Paul ridicules in 1 Cor 13 were part of THUNDER MACHINES. They had WIND NOISE MAKERS: all part of the THEATER or WARFARE. These sounding vases were a hi-tek version of the familiar spirit of the witch of endor. The echoing ventriloquism was SOLD as the voice of the dead. It has the same word as the harp or NEBEL which is derived from VILE and something that "died of itself" just an EMPTY machine for DOING WORK.

A musical instrument is a MACHINE for doing hard work or creating Shock and Awe. It expends lots of ERGS and nothing is more legalistic and WORKS-INTENSIVE than organizing, financing, rehearsing, listening to (to many of us) and WORSHIPING the performers when it is all over. Music is the most ancient, superstitious, paganistic, LEGALISTIC effort of PRAISE WORSHIP. David's most common word for praise means TO MAKE SELF VILE to INTIMIDATE the enemy just as false teachers and elders intend to MIND CONTROL the cult and take their money UNLAWFULLY.

And they SUNG [ode] as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Rev 14:3

The ODE further defines Psalmos as "a Hebrew cantillation." Cantillation means SPEAK as in Paul's DIRECT COMMAND to SPEAK.

You CANNOT learn that song because you are NOT a dead virgin. Now PLAY the harp, FALL on your face and SING at the same time. See how ridiculous God makes us when He sends strong delusions?

NOW HERE IS THE DIRECT COMMAND FOR THE LIVING. Why do you USE music and musicians to VIOLATE the direct command which no one prior to the latest SEED CROP of PhDuhs hallucinates? I can tell you from all of the Bible and well articulated in The Book of Enuch: those who get seduced by Satan into musical worship ARE DEAD and they have "fallen and will never get back up." That is why they JUSTIFY their utter failure by Revelation 14 and why they CANNOT preach the Word "as it has been taught." You didn't procure him to do that in the first place.

And I saw ANOTHER ANGEL fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach
unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Rev 14:6

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to HIM;
for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:7

Sorry but I don't love the SIN or the SINNER when they prove to be the enemy of God. Therefore, I can say that ANY musician who claims that they are giving glory to GOD are bald face liars. They KNOW that you are paying ATTENTION to them and therefore WORSHIPING them. You cannot fall on your face like a dog before its Master and wave and clap your little hands. The word CLAP is also defined as VOMIT. Clapping was to BOO the loosers.

Epic writings are SAYING or SPEAKING and specificially EXCLUDES poetry or MUSIC. Historians not that when people slip from SAY and SPEAK to SING it is both a MARK and a CAUSE of massive EFFEMINANCY. Isaiah did prophesy that the women and children (effeminate) will rule over you.

You cannot WORSHIP with effeminate hand flying or clapping! You cannot PLAY a harp and worship at the same time. YOU must be SILENT when God is in His Holy Temple.

Proskuneo (g4352) pros-koo-neh'-o; from 4314 and a prob. der. of 2965 (mean. to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (lit. or fig.) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

The LITERATURE which John alludes to speaks of such people who were ALREADY dead. Before we become dead virgins and HOLD our harps and NEVER PLAY them, why not OBEY the angel who commanded PREACH THE GOSPEL. Preach EXCLUDES music.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Rom 15:4

Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Rom 15:5
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:6

Docazo (g1392) dox-ad'-zo; from 1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application): - (make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.

While the false teacher has you FULLY OCCUPIED with music, there is nothing left over of the rational or spiritual mind. So, firstly you would never have heard that John heard a SOUND and not MUSIC and the sound was LIKE harpists harping with their harp. Nextly, you could never have absorbed anything beyond proof texts which are half truth and therefore whole lies.

dear Ken,

if you , and others have Biblically tried to correct your "fallen " brethren...why do you not shun these people, as His Word says, rather than bring shame, persecute and divide ALL of the Lord's Church by enabling this "bag of stones" argument?

you said, "Just be thankful that Jesus isn't here to "cast out" the musical minstrels like dung and identify the musical performers with the children of the Agora which I am beginning to digest and post with no need to be believed."
.....right....well, Ken, His Spirit is here, still working Ken...and you are so strong and self-sufficient...some do believe you, those who depend on legality and tradition of man....and maybe a few sheep who will follow anyone who seems to sound intelligent.

I repeat...there is NO LAW which defends the elimination of musical instruments from our world...I don't care how much cleverly devised wording you orchestrate, it just does not matter....

Colossians 2
20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances,
21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch
22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

I repeat, no instrument of music (except maybe those screamin' eelectrical geetars), nor any other inanimate object will bring about our condemnation....if our hearts are not right, nothing about our actions will be.

I do not doubt the problems that infiltrate Christ's Church...the list is extensive....for people to continue in their knowingly offensive ways will be handled by our Father God...thank him for the correction He will dispense to all whom He loves...and, thank Him for the forgiveness He offers each one.

but, why do YOU, Ken Sublett, deny the Word of Jesus by attempting to remove the tares from the field of wheat?....admittedly, we (I, Bob Hunter) have all done the same thing in various ways....

1 Timothy 1:13 (AMP) Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and was shamefully and outrageously and aggressively insulting [to Him], nevertheless, I obtained mercy because I had acted out of ignorance in unbelief.

I'm sure our Heavenly Father is proud of the vast expertise and knowledge of impropriety the brethren possess...but, He is certainly not proud of the way some well-meaning people try to rid the world of the evil Christian...

and, please, don't twist and distort my words....I have never said that it is, "unChristian to correct false teachings."...that's incorrect interpretation, brother...and to continue on the lines of this and, J Edgar Hoover's testimony, is immature, divisive and unproductive...

so, let me ask you, Ken Sublett,
...do you truly believe all of God's Word?...
...why can you not forgive according to the way you've been forgiven? ( what part of this question do you not understand? )
...is it because you don't view yourself as being so sinful?...
...is it because your love cannot hide a multitude of sins?
...is it because you have reached that magic number of 491 times you've forgiven these people?

I must say that I do appreciate, in many ways, much of the info. you provide on this site.

sincerely,
Bob Hunter

Jesus pointed to Isaiah and the Ezekiel parallel to define the sectarian hypocrites as rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. God said you are NOTHING MORE than these people. Why would a church as ekklesia or school of the bible STEAL from the widows and honest working people (who have a right to eat says Paul) DIVERT their property into "a theater for holy entertainment." I just watched a video of Harding where -- as planned -- the musical performance INDUCED a form of madness so that the students danced on the stage. Some MODEL of a onc-Christian college. We understand that this also breaks out on the SABAZIAN worship with instrumental music. Who would NOT have guessed it. Ezekiel

My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words,
BUT they do not put them into practice.
With their mouths they express devotion (Lord, Lord as amorousness - inordinate love),
BUT their hearts are greedy for unjust gain (commerce or trade or attendance). Eze 33:31

Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs (minstrel as a prostitute)
with a beautiful voice and plays (make melody on) an instrument well,

FOR they hear your words
BUT do not put them into practice. Eze 33:32
When all this comes true--and it surely will--
then they will know that a PROPHETS has been among them." Eze 33:33

The Spirit OF Christ led most of the writing prophets to castigate the priestly practices which brought singers, musicians, prostitutes and sodomites into the temple grounds which became the AGORA or marketplace Jesus used as PARABLE to warn those with eyes and ears when a VIPER is about to strike. Prophets are always called hate mongers and never applauded.

NOW, LOOK AT THE JUBAL FAMILY GUIDED BY SATAN TO SEE THE FATHER OF ALL MUSICAL BANDITRY

Let me pause and remember that the Mother of Harlots Babylonianism which John identifies in Revelation 17 and here hypocrite (parasiite) musical mind controllers as sorcerers (Rev 18). The OPHIS which seems to be embedded in the word sOPHISt was the same "musical enchanter" as the Nachash in the garden of Eden: both were "singing and harp playing prostitutes."

These stories survived the flood as did the CAINITES (Kenites) and composed the '"bible" of the Sumerians and all who survived in IRAQ where "christians" still do Devil worship quite identical to what happened with the Stoneites at Cane Ridge, bourbon County, Kentucky as the mother of the Stoneites who went on to become the MUSICAL SECTARIANS. I have posted three dozen versions of this COMMENTARY which shows how all Jews interpreted the Cainite [from a musical note, a lance] family of Lamech [incarnated as EA the patron god of music] story in The Book of Enoch etc. I have used a version to show the SEQUENCE of a man who has a HIDDEN AGENDA to restore the OLDEST STORY of the FALL caused by musical seduction.

http://www.piney.com/MuGenun2.html

After Israel repudiated The Book of the Covenant and fell BACK into the musical idolatry of the alway-pagan triad under Apis the golden calve(s), God slapped them with a FIREY LAW and abandoned them to Sabanism or star worship (Acts 7 etal). The Law of Moses was IMPOSED to legislate for the Lawless to PROTECT the weak people from the Military-Civil-Religous complext which PRACTICED Gentile Baalism for the most part.

Moses used the Babylonian Legends (based in fact) and wrote a CORRECTIVE for those now abandoned to commingle with Canaanite Baalism after the promised land became the killing fields FOR WHICH the loud instruments and singing had a rationale to PANIC the enemy: believe me, when the senior viper adds music and then instruments HE intends to focus the glory on his "temple building" and as a POWER POINT to disable your rational (spiritual) mind and BIND YOU to himself: history knows no exception.

Jesus defines God speaking in PARABLES as a way to HIDE the truth in plain sight so that any profiteers would just make fools of themselves as the musicators became a LAUGHINGSTOCK as an UNholy Trinity of Texas churches have become. When we hear Jesus FOOLING THE FOOLS by using parables and POINTING a finger to define the MERCINARY HYPOCRITES it is NO SURPRISE that profiteers PRETEND that Jesus REALLY meant that in our CHANGED CULTURE we should restore a musical, always-perverse and perverting Mother of Harlots (Zoe) legalistic and sectarianizing PATTERNISM.

Gen 4:21 And his brothers name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Jubal rimes with Rubel and gave his name to JUBILEE. Therefore, we have a Book of Jubilees and the Now-but-not-Yet-Kingdom of Jubilee land has the KINGDOM fermenting BEFORE the time of Jesus and STILL FERMENTING after the time of Jesus. Jubal was the teacher of the whole musical band which he used to build cities, steal your free animals, put them in pens and THEN sell them back to you. Tubal-Cain is the KORESH or artificer who probably invented the musical anvils well documented and Naamah is defined as an "enchantress" and equated to the night hag Lilith.

The instrumental Psalms are WARRIORS CHANTS intended to drive the enemy warriors into panic and even turning on themselves: still works in church. The word PRAISE means to make self vile
"The name of psaltery entered Christian literature in the 3rd century B.C. translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint where, in the Psalms, nebel was translated psalterion. Thus, Nebuchadnezzar's idolatrous ensemble included the Aramic psantria. Notice, also, that the book of Psalms has also become known as the Psalter (or psalterium), from the hymns sung with this harp.

The Nebel (h5034) neh'-bel; or nebel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol

The Familiar Spirit of the Witch of Endor and the Sounding Brass has the same meaning;

H178 obe From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father’s name); properly a mumble, that is, a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): bottle, familiar spirit.

John called the sophists, singers and musicians SORCERERS: pretty hard to trump that.

Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..

H5036 nâbâl naw-bawl' From H5034 ; stupid; wicked (especially impious):—fool (-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), VILE person.

In the Classics you will ALWAYS find vile people plucking the harp up to no good. Warriors studied music and dance for the harmony training but NO proper person would actually PLAY and sing.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits (60), and the breadth thereof six (6) cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura (circle), in the province of Babylon. Dan 3:1

That at what time ye hear the sound of the (1) cornet, (2) flute, (3) harp, (4) sackbut, (5) psaltery, (6) dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: Dan 3:5

And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it. Isa 30:32

"Its (pipe = to love passionately) was apparently a secular instrument and is never listed in the temple orchestra; only in Ps. 150:4 it is mentioned in a religious (but not ritual) function. Its ethos was not blameless at all, as we see from Genesis Rabbah 50:

'The angels said to Lot: 'There are players of the pipe (organ) in the country, hence it ought to be destroyed'." Its rabbinical identification with the aboda, the flute of the notorious Syrian bayaderes, emphasizes the erotic element which already the Hebrew name suggests." (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).

"Only in Ps 150:3 is it (shophar) mentioned with most of the other really musical instruments. Hence, we must conclude that the function of the shophar was to make noise--be it of earthly or of eschatological character--but not to make music. After the destruction of the temple and the general banishment of all instrumental music, the shophar alone survived, just because it was not a musical instrument." (International Diction6ary of the Bible, p. 473, Abingdon).

The SERVICE of the Levitical Warrior Musicians is defined as HARD BONDAGE with a word including Abadowm. Musical instruments are also defined as weapons or lifeless instruments or carnal weapons. They were made to MAKE WAR or MAKE LOVE

Organum - (Ergon = doing hard work or "shock and Awe.") Of musical instruments, a pipe,Vulg. Gen. 4, 21; id. 2 Par. 34, 12 et saep.--Of hydraulic engines, an organ, water-organ: organa hydraulica, Suet. Ner. 41 : aquatica, Mythogr. Lat. 3, 12.--Of a church-organ

2 Chr 34:12 The men did the work faithfully. Over them to direct them were Jahath and Obadiah, Levites descended from Merari, and Zechariah and Meshullam, descended from Kohath. The Levites--all who were skilled in playing musical instruments-

The word HANDLES is:

Taphas (h8610) taw-fas'; a prim. root; to MANIPULATE, i. e. seize; chiefly to capture, wield; spec. to overlay; fig. to use unwarrantably: - catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, * surely, surprise, take.

Now, whatever those with an ancient Hebrew Grammar and Dictionary say about it, if you LUST to deliberately sow discord by HANDLING musical instruments in the "school of the Bible" you are going to have to do some LEGALISTIC LOOP-HOLES to trump my 100% ability to out the pagan, sexual, perverted PERSONA. As a scholar you should be able to find "handling organs and harps" in a GOD COMMANDED or approved way as "worship" in the assembly. Sure, flutes were MALE and FEMALE and Athene threw away her flute because of its obscene look and connotation.

Taphaph (h8608) taw-faf'; a prim. root; to drum, i. e. play (as) on the tambourine: - taber, play with timbrels.
Tophtheh (h8613) tof-teh'; prob. a form of 8611; Tophteh, a place of cremation: - Tophet.

Topheth was once King Solomon's Music Grove and became the garbage dump and the SYMBOL of hell where the king of Babylon would go with his harps and still breating harpist to rest on a BED OF MAGGOTS and be ridiculed by the "conscious dead."

As far as I can determine, HELL was prepared for ONLY Lucifer "the singing and harp-playing prostitute" and for all of the SOULS she could steal with his / her / its wind, string and percussion instruments. Of all NATIONS of which Israel was "no better than the Ethopians" in the eyes of Good, Isaiah has the image of the Molech worshipers with music and buring infants being BEATEN into "hell" with the same instruments. Now, maybe that "don't mean nothing" but musicators have to use THEIR lust to show and tell their "talent" to TRUMP this among the 100% negative image of musical instruments.

Must ye always rejoice, and go into my holy places continually, as they that keep a feast? and must ye go with a pipe, as those that rejoice into the mountain of the Lord, to the God of Israel Isaiah

and the Lord shall make his glorious voice to be heard and the wrath of his arm, to make a display with wrath and anger and devouring flame: he shall lighten terribly, and his wrath shall be as water and violent hail. Isaiah 30:30 LXX

30:29 LXXAnd in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it. Isa 30:32

For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath [Spirit] of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. Is.30:33

Isaiah prophesied of the DUNG connectin and Jesus fulfilled it: NEXT. Just remember that the official in Athens who regulated the FLUTE-GIRLS (prostitutes) also regulated the DUNG HEAP as a type of TOPHETH.

dear Ken,

after reading many of the posts on your board, I see the problems are not simply worthless piece's of metal, wood or plastic in the form of instruments, tools, etc..

I will have to tell you this...I became interested in studying God's Word AFTER reading the version of the Bible published by the Jehovah's Witness's ....even though that version attempted to deny the deity of our Savior, it really could not do so, nor could it keep me from seeking the truth.... and so, I will not propose that instruments of music, giving titles, worshiping on Saturday, Friday night communion, and other points of controversy would deny the Holy Spirit's ability to teach and bring souls to salvation....these controversy's do, however, contribute to the fact that lack of understanding will dilute the written and preached word..... the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, I will not ever depend on what a man has to say.

what is the point?...simply, the congregational leaders and many of the believers, where there is turmoil, seem to care whether they follow the example of our Lord in ministering to the flock and they certainly have not followed the example given through Paul, by the Lord, to become a slave to all so that all may be won.....Paul also stated in so many words that division was caused by immature Christians....I have often wondered if, how and when God answered or will answer the prayer of Christ (John 17) that "they may be perfected in unity,"...this must truly be a judgement day request by Christ.

I do appreciate the opportunity God gives us to converse and debate differences...I don't appreciate the backbiting and slander of the brotherhood (even if someone thinks they are posting factual information)....I would not adhere to the insinuation that one person, or group of believer's, is less sinful than another...

people often throw around the words reform, restore and revive but what we need to understand is REPENT...

agreed?

sincerely,
Bob Hunter

It is a fact that God IS SILENT to those who once repudiate His Word: He sends them strong delusions and ALL of the musical words were known to bring on delusions so that the corrupters of the Word (selling at retail) could fool the fools that that feeling--even puking while doing the David dance--could be sold to the Gullible Travelers in say Corinth and strip the men of their living before they could make it to the next ship: Paul marked the MAD WOMEN because history notes that only drunks or gender-bleeds would sing AND play at the same time.

The NIV is a commentary and is loaded PRO music and ANTI baptism because it is the opinon of various pseudo-scholars to make an easy-reading version for PROFIT. The word MUSIC is used only twice in the New Testament: the first would demand singing AND dancing as the Greek for "music" demands. The second speaks of the MUSES in Revelation 18 who along with the instrument players and others are called by John SORCERERS who HAD DECEIVED the whole World. John prophesied of them being UNLEASED in the end times which seems like now since ALL bible-based groups have been taken captive and afflicted by professional musicians. The word psallo is never translated MELODY that I can find. Melody is the Greek MELOS and does not appear in th

Ep.5:19 SPEAKING to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Speak..........psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.........to yourselves

SiING and makING melody .........in your HEART..........to God

In English the present participles places BOTH the singing and melody IN THE HEART which is a place: that is because singing is always enchantment or in John's words SORCERY. Melody as in PSALLO is a warfare word MARKING Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) who is the "father of the twanging bow to send singing arrows into your heart, of musical harmony, of thieves and of liars. No one used that as proof until the year 1878. And it took a hundred years before people dared used it again to sow discord. It took almost 400 years to quit (in some trouble spots) SPEAKING and begin SINGING to themselves.

Sing and speak are radically different forms of making SOUNDS: The text ALL TEXT reads SPEAK so Paul never said SING PSALMS to yourselves.

Laleo (g2980) lal-eh'-o; a prol. form of an otherwise obsol. verb; to talk, i.e. utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Comp. 3004.

Logik-os, ( [logos] )
A. of or for speaking or speech, merę l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38: logikę, hę, speech, OPPOSITE to mousikę,
Lego (g3004) leg'-o; a prim. verb; prop. to "lay" forth, i.e. (fig.) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse

Lalia is loquacity in DIALECTS and never GIBBERISH.

You cannot DISCOURSE with music because it "lacks persuasiveness" or as Justin interpreted Amos they THOUGHT that it had an abiding presence when it was just FLEETING PLEASURE. Music goes in one ear and out the other. That is because its driving purpose is to shut down your rational hemisphere so the poison will go down.

Colossians 3 is a parallel statement proving that WORD means SPIRIT because Jesus said 'my WORDS are Spirit and Life' after He said "the flesh counts for nothing." That is why Jesus LIMITED and Paul commanded worship in the PLACE of the human spirit as it meets the MIND OF CHRIST in the Written words of the Living Word.

Col.3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with GRACE in your hearts to the Lord.

This was the DIRECT COMMAND for the assembly or church in the wilderness when BOTH instrumental and vocal "making a joyful noise before the Lord were outlawed" because the Qahal was for INSTRUCTIONS only and because you cannot REST, READ and REHEARSE the Word of God when someone has stirred up your flesh with a drug-high where music SPECIFICIALLY creates the impulses of FIGHT or FLIGHT. The Greek literature knew it to produce panic or fear.
The latin--where its Rommans 15 radically outlaws ALL of the mental-excitement rituals such as loud speaking, singing, dancing or drama--reads:

Eph 5: [19]WEB loquentes vobismet ipsis in psalmis et hymnis et canticis spiritalibus cantantes et psallentes in cordibus vestris Domino

Loquor

1. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, WHISPER to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation;
A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly

Erasmus and the TR and the KJV relied heavily on the Latin Vulgate and used the word SPEAK in the place of LOQUENTES which is NOT singing with or without instruments.

Sermo
I.a speaking or talking with any one; talk, conversation, discourse. B. In part: 1. Literary conversation, discourse, disputation, discussion
b. Concr., a talk, speech, discourse (more informal and unpretending than oratio): [Oratio is defined as feminine and as THE primary definition of HYPOCRITE]
2.Ordinary speech, speaking, talking, the language of conversation (opp. contentio) Of prose as opposed to poetry:
3. With reference to some particular object, common talk respecting any thing, report,

I listened to an OLD sermon from Zechariah 4 today. Modern sermonizing was a very late apostasy. Sermons hover over the text and go round and round by private interpretation or FURTHER EXPOUNDING which Peter outlawed because THAT would repudiate the power of the Spirit OF Christ for out "postmodern" culture. I would like for him to fully grasp later chapters which MARKS those who continue the prophesying in the destructive singing and playing sense for excecution by their parents if they STILL prophesy (saying Lord, Lord etal) AFTER the SIGNS of prophesying youth had IDENTIFIED and proven that Pentecost was the fulfillment and that Jesus died to give us REST in order to "come learn of me." The OUTBREAK of demonism was prophesied to be the MARK of the risingof the Beast and the Locusts who were the Muses or "musical performers" John used as SIGNS for those with eyes and ears.

Paul didn't PREACH until midnight: the word is DIALOG and elsewhere when Paul teaches the word is COMMUNE. A sermon is a LECTURE a studied least effective and most costly. The message beginning with the serpent which was both phallic and the Musical Enchanter is that music takes away the rational mind so that you cannot doubt people when they CANNOT see words like SPEAK without translating them into MAKE MUSIC. That's the program and there is such overwhelming evidence that it is MUSIC which the BEAST uses to SEAL his own seed: Zoe is called the "beast and female instructing principle" and that is why Paul understood more of the parable nature of Genesis than we do: a parable being a "superior form of speech" and in the Words of Jesus it was to hide the truth from those who did not LOVE truth. That was the CROOKED GENERATION which is defined as the gender-stressed Skolion singers and instrument players to make the wine go down.

my friend Ken,

I appreciate your effort to do what is right by pinpointing what is against the Word of God...but, to try to cleanse the church of the evil-doer by the methods most people choose is also against the word of God (as simply pointed out by the "tares" parable)...

and, for clarity of the scripture, quite frankly I depend upon the Holy Spirit to guide me....I can not concern myself when anyone says that certain words found in most translations (including the earliest writings available) do not mean what they say.....I also will not depend on reference manuals, concordances, Strong's, etc...I CANNOT WORRY ABOUT WHETHER EVERYTHING DONE IS CORRECT ACCORDING TO THE LAW WHICH WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS.....and, you see that is why Christ died...so we wouldn't have to....anyone can make an argument go their direction if they try hard enough...(as the SDA's, JW's and the anti-instrumentalist's do {from this point on known as the AI's})....

as also pointed out, many things in the Bible are spoken of in negative terms when they are used in non-appropriate ways....such as gold, (I don't suppose you have any of this)...money, (how about this?), food (I could've had a V-8!), laws (the Pharisees were adept at obeying ordinances while their hearts were black)...
.... almost everything, created by God, has been perverted by the devil in some way....and He may make those perverts drink that ground up gold some day...(oh yes, that's been done)....or, pound their heads with an eelectronical geetar...

so, I personally, by the grace of God and the power of His Son and Holy Spirit, won't concern myself with whether singing praises while accompanied by someone playing a piano could put me out of His good graces....but, Ken when you're around, I won't mimic a tuba when I sing bass....

take care...hope to meet you in heaven!

I do not know you except by the obsession you have placed into criticism and division for RHCC. I also realize in reading your messages and responses that my comments will in no way have an impact on you nor lessen your myopia. To me, and many others, we see your thoughts as one held captive by what they have been taught rather than the whole of scripture and the message of Christ's life. I would say you, and many others would be able to celebrate Christ a bit better if you broke your ties with RHCC and found another place that sees things only the way you do. Let go, and invest your time into the great commission.

Please read this because I offer any of the WE to prove that it is ACCEPTABLE to TWIST all of the music words in the Bible which all point to Satan and gender-challenged people who have been TAKEN CAPTIVE. The issue is WHAT IS TRUTH because I don't fly on either of the WINGS or believe that the PEA is under EITHER walnut shell.

For Ken
February 8 2007, 8:35 PM

I do not know you except by the obsession you have placed into criticism and division for RHCC. I also realize in reading your messages and responses that my comments will in no way have an impact on you nor lessen your myopia.

Preachers regularly violate direct commands and preach each Sunday for an ungodly and unauthorized wage doing sick philosphy, So I take the liberty of continuing to ABCESS free of charge until Jesus comes (the Invasion of the Musical Body Snatchers fits the prophecy that He HAS come.)

My obsession is with the WORD OF TRUTH and it doesn't cause me lots of trauma. Secondly, the old guilt clause was initiated by Adam: blame the fella that squirts blood on your dancing slippers after you have shot him in the heart. The division has been going on at the stockyards for many years and it has reached into most of the country. That is by a small band of merry men who set out to RESTRUCTURE churches of Christ and turn them into Christian Churches who USE them to insinuate that they speak for non-instrumental churches of Christ. I don't BUY the idea that they are PROPHETS or APOSTLES superior to Jesus.

If you have listened to the three sermons--which you must do to be qualified--you will see that they are OBSESSED with distorting ALL of the Bible passages and opionions of church fathers and definition of Greek words. Why is it an OBSESSION to simply do a REBUTTAL to all of those TWISTED SCRIPTURES? The ONLY issue is WHAT IS TRUTH and I am quite obsessed with telling the TRUTH. As an engineer I was trained that if you LIE about your products someone might get killed. I have STILL only responded to a SMALL NUMBER of the Twisted Scriptures.

No, your comments will do nothing but confirm for me and the hundreds of readers that you have no INTENTION of questioning the claim that "God commands instrumental praise" and then "we SHOULD NOT be disobedient."

I fully grasp that people love to accuse Bible speakers with being legalistic, sectarian, patternists and even fratricides (brother killers). But THAT just proves to the watching world that you are disloyal to the Living Word by fabricating a new "written word" where by definition musical instruments are MACHINES for doing hard work or producing "shock and awe." But, intimidation is NOT celebrating Jesus who repudiated ALL command authority.

To me, and many others, we see your thoughts as one held captive by what they have been taught rather than the whole of scripture and the message of Christ's life.

That sounds like playground 101a: "We ALL don't like you because you won't let me be Dick Tracy." What psychological training does it take to see "speaking where the Bible speaks" (The CENI is universal down through history) as being HELD CAPTIVE? I am still captive to "don't step on rattlesnakes" and "don't get close to that cliff because you can reach the point of no return." Surely ONE of the MANY will do a rebuttal: You know Paul didn't PREACH until midnight but DIALOGED and the ekklesia or SYNAGOGUE (Paul's word for the asembly) not only meant COLLECT the people but READ and DISCUSS the issue until you have collected the thoughts.

If you look up the meaning of words and see how they are used in REAL documents Paul would have read, you can grasp that the word SPEAK specificially excludes "poetry and music." And see that the singing (a witchcraft word) AND melody (a warfare word) is in the PLACE of the human heart which is the only place God SEEKS our worship. Why doesn't TRUTH set you FREE? Why would being Bible and literary literate make you CAPTIVE? Maybe prove that that is an OBSESSION?

All that I know about the universal MUSIC-WARFARE-IDOLATRY connection I had to learn after I was happy to retire at about 48 and watched evil men begin to claim to be 13th apostles or prophets with GREATER power than Moses or Jesus. When I left one PhDuh boasted about quitting preaching about instrumental music and the others were still on Gopher Wood 101aaa and neither have a REMOTE CLUE about MUSIC as the MARK of those who refuse to listen to the Word as it has been taught. Why is it an obsession to OUT the fact that the serpent was a MUSICAL ENCHANTER and the Mother of Harlots uses speakers, singers and musicians to perform SORCERY? Do you want to keep people IGNORANT?

Why is it captive to NOT drink Jonestown KoolAid? Why is it CAPTIVE to break free of the "laying by in store" or "tithing" bit fat lie? Why is it captive to quit listening to sermonizing which ooozed out about the time SINGING did? Why is it captive to quite listing to COMPLEX HARMONY derived from Voodoo and known by being literate and a trained engineer and personal observation to drive PANIC as indeed one of the names for APOLLO (Apollyon) made DESIRABLE? Why is it captive to see "musical worship teams" standing in the type of the Holy Place claiming to be GOD by claiming to lead you into the presence of God as MEDIATOR?

Why is it captive to be Bible literate to know that there is NO musical word in the bible which does not point to Lucifer (Zoe) as the SOURCE and the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden. Or points to WARRIORS (under the king and commanders of the army) or to prostitutes and Sodomites who served around the Jerusalem Temple? None of the Christian Church PLUCKING proof texts fails to POINT to doing pederasty with the 'youth ministers.' Why is it captive to OUT that universal fact FOR WHICH you will find no exception?

I believe what ALL known scholarship believes about sermonizing, complex harmony, instrumental music and the LIE OF GIVING so that the poor supports, in the name of Calvin, the "lazy asses." I think that if you are a "scholar" you know what pseudo scholars have taught you as TRUTH which emerged in the 20th century and YOU are the one taken captive because 'no law of preaching, singing, giving or budges' sets people FREE so don't try to tell them that you are giving them FREEDOM by taking them CAPTIVE.

I would say you, and many others would be able to celebrate Christ a bit better if you broke your ties with RHCC and found another place that sees things only the way you do. Let go, and invest your time into the great commission.

When Jesus "sings" with us the word means to GRIEVE OUT A HYMN: Can YOU not watch with Him ONE HOUR?

Shouldn't the INFILTRATORS and DIVERTERS be the ones to leave and let the OWNERS keep their own 'church house of widows?' Not even the Pharisees (wrote there own sermons) would go beyond stealing the HOUSES or LIVINGS of widows. Why is it wrong to tell people that Jesus sent the message that the mouth-religionists called HYPOCRITES are identified as "speakers, singers and instrument players." Do you demand that we CELEBRATE with Pharisees, Scribes and Hypocrites? Isn't that an obsession?

The EKKLESIA which is the SYNAGOGUE which began as the QAHAL or church in the wilderness was NOT to celebrate. The command of Jesus was NOT to make worshipers IN HOUSES or CELBRATORS but to be DISCIPLES which means STUDENTS. That is what you DO in the school of the Bible.

My only ties with RHCC is the bad influence which it exerted in the local church which LEAPED from about 350 to less then 200 when they IMPORTED an ACU type. They couldn't CONSUMATE and left a nasty smell in the whole county because DISLOYALTY is a fatal sin. I have had questions from people who have had to leave long ago by DELIBERATE DISCORD. The Concerned members forum was heavily used in the early days by people who knew that error was afoot and even family discord driven. Didn't I hear in one of the sermons that "you may have to decide between family and instrumental music?"

I AM one of the few engaged in the GREAT COMMISSION because assuredly you cannot build a MEGA-TEMPLE and fulfil the absolute demand to GO where the gospel is not known. I have gone into most known nations with the gospel which begins: "Come to ME all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you REST." Did you know that the laded burden means 'spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals" or CELEBRATING? Did you know that the word REST just like SABBATH in the wilderness is highly dedicated to say STOP THE SPEAKING, stop the singing, stop the INSTRUMENTS and just stop the PANIC.'

Why am I the one in BONDAGE when the GOSPEL sets you free from that CROOKED GENERATION of "skolion singers?"

Now, to redeem yourself just first LISTEN to the sermons and pick A SINGLE INSTANCE where the Bible did not suffer ABUSE. Otherwise, your captive audience will soon know that you PLAN to begin CELEBRATING instead of INCULCATING "that which is written."

MUSIC: in the Bible and all know literature: Satan as source, warriors, prostitues and Sodomites." I have a LIBRARY of proof and no one OBSESSED with wanting, in the words of Carol Wimber, to "bring on a sexual-like climactic experience with the Spirit" can find a JOT or TITTLE to identify me as acting up. That is also the wineskin MARK.

I might have myopia but with A holy spirit I can now read the word SPEAK and not see MAKE MUSIC

I have quoted the PROOF ASSERTIONS in full CONTEXT to prove that that the preacher doesn't have clue about the time line and cause and effect relationships in the Bible. None of that is OPINION and you have made a false charges along with a couple of RACA words. I would expect at least for you to point out one of the STATEMENTS made and my REBUTTAL. You owe it for EACH of the WE to respond. Saying it is not WORTHY of response will just prove why so many preachers get violent when the LAIDITY venturs into their turf.

If you still think that it is OPINION I can assure you that it is consistent with all historical facts before the postmodern DELUSION where philosophers (not honest preachers) hallucinate that TRUTH Jesus read during HIS DISPENSATION is no longer TRUTH because of the UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE. That ONLY applies close to the speed of LIGHT and if you are a SUBATOMIC PARTICLE. Thingies like Black ink on white paper still mean what they MEANT in that culture. That bit of insanity gave Einstein a good laugh and a lot of NON-bible student preachers an excuse not to have to get an honest job.