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Setting the Facts Straight

November 11 2007, 7:12 PM 

First of all Ken, I don’t know who you are or what you have gone through or are going through, but I know this-what you are doing is wrong. You sit in judgment of other people and think you know the heart of God. Yes you are right; many people get caught up in emotion. But there are many people who are not emotional. God is spirit and we must worship in spirit and in truth John 4:24. Those are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks John 4:23. Do you follow everything the Bible clearly says to? Do you do no work on the Sabbath at all? Have you sold all of your possessions and shared the proceeds with those in the church so that everyone who had a need would be provided for? I doubt it seriously. People like you make me angry with righteous indignation. Besides the word of God what do you have access to that others do not. The people in the church that you refer to have the Word of God which they can read just like you can and interpret it as the Spirit directs. Let them judge. If you don’t agree with it then find another church that suites you. But for your benefit I respond to your post.

You said that music creates “sexual impulses.” So I would ask you are there orgies at your church now that praise music has been instituted? Have people been driven to uncontrollable lust for one another or for demons in the church’s services? I don’t know what kinds of songs are being sung at your church, but I can imagine that they are similar to the one’s that are sung at mine. I can but laugh at the assertion that a song, for example, such as “Heart of Worship” by Matt Redman or “How Great is Our God” by Chris Tomlin, could insight any lust in the hearts of anyone. Can you???? You say that we should learn from Jesus, but I ask you, by doing this are you doing like Jesus? Has any sin or impropriety been committed in your church? Or are people’s lives being touched and healed? Is God’s name being lifted up like never before? Oh yes I know you would say that you are lifting God up, which mean you think you have some power over Him. But I say you are confused. By saying we lift the Lord up we certainly do not mean that He is like a child dependent on our strength for we are his children and we need Him in our lives. But “we lift Him up” is a way of saying that we are not ashamed of God. We are saying that no matter our problem is or what has come against us we will not say oh God you can’t help me. We won’t minimize God, but we will magnify Him.

Moving on to other things, you seriously do not know what you are talking about. The Jews were not non-Israelites. They ARE THE ISRAELITES! You can read this in the Bible. When the Israelites were taken into captivity in Babylon and they were freed to come back to the Holy Land they began to be called Jews, because they lived in Judea. If you assert that the Jews were “pipers, singers and dancers (who) were consigned by Jesus to the AGORA or marketplace where all pagan religions using prostitutes and sodomites, speakers and singers, musicians and dancers, sellers of radishes and young boys took place,” (Ken Sublett) then are you saying that Jesus was raised in this kind of environment? An environment with prostitutes and sodomites?? We know that scripture mentions nothing of this! Jesus is called “King of the Jews” for crying out loud. So in your opinion this is the kingdom he came to established? And where do radishes come into the picture? Isn’t that a vegetable? IDK. Were radishes against the Biblical dietary laws are something?? I have to ask you where are you getting your info from?????? I would like you to verify your sources.

You said that the displays in the Bible where examples of people praising and singing “were reserved for sending life and death messages”. This is just not true. In 2 Samuel chapter six, the passage I referenced in my first post, the event is not a military venture. There was no invasion or danger. The nation of Israel was celebrating the return of the Ark of the Covenant back to Jerusalem. It was a national holiday. It is true that no one could enter the Temple but priest, and they could only enter under the conditions set by God in the Bible. This law of not entering the temple applied to everyone that wasn’t a priest. But the Levites did sing hymns to God in the inner courts of the Temple. You also speak that playing musical instruments was forbidden on the Sabbath. I am not sure what was or wasn’t forbidden by the Sabbath law, but healing the sick was forbidden also. However, that didn’t stop Jesus from doing it. Did it?

And this is the place that I lose respect for you. You have the right to present your viewpoints and offer your proof, but you do not have the right to twist the Word of God to make it suite you. You took 2 Samuel chapter 6 and completely took it out of context. You make it seem as if the Lord was unhappy with David. But the scripture does not say this. David was not punished for this. The Bible does not say that David could not father children. For we know that he had children. Remember they had more than one wife back then and if God wanted to punish David he would not have been able to have anymore children from any of his wives. The Bible says that it was only Michal who could not bear children. This was a punishment for her, not King David. This event did not break up David’s marriage. Him murdering and committing adultery caused his son to die-not dancing before the Lord. King David was not a pagan or idolater. If he was, why is Jesus called the Son of David?

Leaving you I have this question to ask. How do you equate music with homosexuals and effeminacy? My church condemns homosexuality and believes that those who are homosexual need to be set free by the power and love of Jesus. Also we have women on our praise team and our praise team is led by a woman. Not that she is praise leader because she is a woman, but she has been anointed to follow the Holy Spirit’s direction. We also have men on our praise team and they are not gay or effeminate at all. They also sing in the way their voices naturally sound- as men not sounding like women. Even if what you say has truth in it the customs and practices of the Levites were given to them by God so I see no validity in you view point at all.

I hope you pray and seek Gods will in this and look more to the Word and not to whoever you get this info from. Well you know where to find me if you want to talk to me. I do hope you think about what I said and truly seek God’s will for your church. As the Bible says you shall no them by their fruit. If your church is bearing good fruit I would rejoice and join in to help them be the best church they can be.

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Ken Sublett

Partial response to Itwin, Seattle

November 12 2007, 3:12 PM 

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Ken Sublett (blituri)

Itwin Seattle: #2 the Sexual Persona!

November 14 2007, 1:47 PM 

Sorry, I cannot find any Biblical or historical help to get around the music-sexual persona. If I could find any exception I might confess that all of us are wrong. You may not know why "musical worship" guys and gals often cause half of the "owners" to flee for their lives but while you guys may think you are cute and talented, much of the world sees it as effeminate screeching and screaming.

I can go on and on and on and on. The only worship word in the New Testament is to give heed to the Word of God. That is because the ekklesia or synagogue is a "school of the Bible." Jesus patterned it specificially to outlaw the laded burden of "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The literature proves that this laded burden is facilitated most powerfully by arousal singing with or without instruments. Because the intent is to do an end-run around the Words of Christ (commanded) to create a mental or emotional experience which frazzles the nerves, John in Revelation 18 and all evidence marks it as sorcery. You cannot suck in enough seekers to convert sorcery into the school of the Bible.

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bye bye

November 16 2007, 8:29 PM 

Ken, I think, by hearing your response to my questions I know more of the point of view by which you assert yourself. It would seem to me, and of course, this is only my opinion and sense I really do not know you, if you honestly say that my opinion of you is wrong I hope you will easily forget it and hold nothing personal against me, that you are very intelligent and well read. However, I find by my reading that you seem to suffer from a deficiency in understanding the true mystery and freedom that Christ brought to you and I and the whole world. You speak of the Law as if you are under it. I am not under the law, but Grace, and I would not want to be under the Law. Jesus died so that we would not be judged by the Law. Because you are correct the Law brings death and if you want death then who am I to stop you. You say that singing in the church was a late innovation not coming about until circa 373. Here I must dispute you. There are many earlier instances of singing by the Christian community. In fact it was not uncommon for Christians to include in their gatherings the singing of the psalms and hymns. With this we can see many examples, but if you desire to I think you might like the challenge to look them up yourself so I give you only one. It is from Justin Martyr, an early Christian apologist who lived from 110 to 165 in the Roman Empire. He was not Jewish, but was converted to the Christian faith. In his First Apology Chapter XIII, which was written to the Roman Emperor, he writes, “and with gratitude to Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns for our creation, and for all the means of health, and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons; and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him.” The url to the page the quote was taken from is here

Now about what you write about the Seattle church judging cannot respond because I am completely ignorant of what is happening in Seattle, but I would like to read your attempt at explaining how singing, which often is little more than praising God and glorifying His name while playing musical instruments, is “telling God to ‘shut your face.’” I think God is happy to hear our worship. Yes, the episode at the well was talking about a place, but can you say that the principle does not apply to other situations as well situations such as the state of the worshippers hear. For what does it matter if someone knows that he or she can worship God wherever the person wants if there is no truth in his worship?

Now of your next assertion I am ignorant. You bring up a theology that I have never heard of and cannot call Christian. In my point of view, if I understand you correctly, this is not, at the least, a traditional understanding and at the most completely un-Biblical. Am I right to assume that you are saying that the state religion of Israel was pagan and not the religion of Moses and the priests? I understand that in Jesus’ day the priesthood and religious establishment were corrupt, but they were still in the service of Jehovah and the temple was not inhabited by pagan or heretical priests. Is this what you are saying? Before I respond to this part, I would like a better explanation. Perhaps I am mistaken in my understanding.

Here we agree. The Bible does not say that you have to sell your possession or that there is a specific ritual or common worship. Jesus did not come to set up a religion but a relationship. I applaud you and find joy in having something we can agree on. Yet you contradict yourself by insisting that everyone follow your idea of (excuse my frankness) unemotional and dead ritual. There is nothing wrong with composing songs for worship. Moreover, as I have said earlier even Jesus broke the Sabbath. Yes, you are right people may use this for their own glory and gain but guess what, sorry for smashing your perfect Christian ideal, but men always have music or no music. Nevertheless, did not Paul say that whether men preach the Gospel for the glory of God or for their own glory at least the Gospel is preached? Oh and do not call what you do not understand frenzy and panic. Wow. After reading your last post I seriously doubt there is any chance of making you understand. I am at a loss for words. To be sure you have not changed my mind at all, its just that all this nonsense you use sometimes just confuses the brain( and you talk about frenzy). Word of advice all this mess you talk about--- know one understands it. Any way whatever I say you’ll change the Bible to suite you anyway its never been boring debating you but I think this will probably be my last response for a while. I just hope that everything goes according to the will of God for your church.

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Ken Sublett

Justin Martyr on music and the Law of Moses.

November 17 2007, 8:50 PM 

First, it is important to note that the Bible is not metrical in a tuneful sense. When the Jews (Greeks etc) use the word "sing" we understand a form of speech marked by accent and not tunful. After the Reformation when they obeyed the command to SPEAK the Psalms and other Biblical text it was this same form "using the normal inflections of the language." The Jews called it cantillation which fits Paul's word SPEAK or Ode. The word SPEAK is defined as "the opposite to poetry or music."

"Melody as tunfulness belongs to the 19th century" says the Britannica. In its modern meaning melody is still "a series of single notes." There can be no harmony or "parts."

Harmony was not discovered until beginning after the year 1200 by composers and idle monks "fiddling" with the pipe organs which were NEVER used to accompany congregational singing. Nor, did they ever accompany the chanter who cantillated the Psalms originally.

Calvin grudgingly allowed putting the Psalms to meter so that they could be sung in a very simple form. These paraphrased Psalms do not intend to be faithful to the text but carry the sentiment--as interpreted by the Bible REWRITER.

We have all been spiritually and emotionally abused because we have replaced sermonizing for the commanded "teaching that which has been taught" which was commanded and obeyed in the synagogue as "chapter by chapter, verse by verse" with a through the Bible plan.

To make us further devoid, the SINGING of modern sentimental composers violates the direct command to "sing" that which is written with one Mind and one Mouth. It needs NO proving that while you are speaking YOUR words you are telling God to SHUT UP. There are several Old Testament examples which prove that they were teling God through His prophets "we will not hear any more.

The quotes link proves that this was always the understanding.

It is a fact: sad that those who deliberately sow discord by using the Monarchy and Court Records as proof texts are totally devoid of any understanding of the context or story line. Yes, it is true: just read Acts 7 and look where Stephen POINTED without letting the theologian or song leader TWIST the passage and you will discover that it was BECAUSE of musical idolatry that God turned them over to worship the starry host: that is defined as Sabazianism or the worship of the astrial deities where the major 'god' in Egypt and the abandonment was Dionysus who showed up fully as The Abomination of Desolation.

I assure you that it is the absolute truth and you need to send the preacher back to the Bible and silence the musicians and take some time to obey the ONLY meaning of worship in Paul's writing which is to GIVE HEED to the Word of God: that which one should automatically grasp knowing that the "synagogue had no praise service" and the ekklesia Jesus used to define His assemby has about the same meaning as the synagogue. Here are some collected notes on music by Justin Martyr which will link you to the actual documents composed by Him.

I have never heard or read a modern theologian who grasps the FALL FROM GRACE at Mount Sinai and culminated when the elders (always the elders) fired God and demanded a king LIKE THE NATIONS. God understood them to mean "so we can WORSHIP like the nations" or Goyim: yes, like all pagans. God said that "I gave them kings in my anger and took them away in my anger." The kings--after God solemnly warned that the would ENSLAVE them--would carry out the captivity and death sentence conditionally passed because of musical idolatry at mount Sinai.

More later

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"Bible study LITE"

November 25 2007, 12:31 PM 

It is nearly impossible to get anyone in the church today to listen to the negative testimony about music that is in the bible. Those who love music and the feelings it produces will not sit down with a bible and a concordance/lexicon to discover the implications that the original Hebrew/Greek words carry. None of the teaching ministries that pride themselves on their verse-by-verse "expositional" teaching style have any right to be proud of their record when it comes to teaching on the topic of music. There is a lot of information which is plain as day in the original languages, but this information is not evident in a translation. The "expositional" teachers will take every verse and word in a passage and explain it's original meaning, usage, associations, and the resulting implications that arise from this information, but they always seem to switch to bible study "lite" mode when they come across a passage that deals with a negative association to music. All of a sudden they don't "expose" so much in their "expository" teaching.

Those who demand from scripture a clear, explicit command forbidding the use of music - have you ever stopped to think that maybe God has purposely NOT given explicit commands in this regard? That He has put PLENTY of information in His word which is readily available IF you are willing to see it? One way that people who know each other well can communicate implicitly (without explicit statements or commands) is by spending a lot of time together and noticing what kinds of words and associations the other person frames their thoughts with. You learn how they feel about a certain topic by noticing what types of associations they make when talking about it, and the nature of the words they use. There is a lot of "indirect" (parabolic) teaching done in this way by God in His word. In fact, once you begin looking at the meanings and associations behind the original Hebrew and Greek words, and see how they are used, and the people and situatuions involved, it becomes clear that God is trying to say something to those who are willing to hear. This is where churches are failing today. Most modern
churches keep their members so busy with programs, "serving", and now with entertainment, that there is no time for, and no encouragement of, serious bible study to see if all of the "serving" is being done the way God wants it. Two tools are basically all a Christian needs to get started - a bible and a Strong's concordance/dictionary of Hebrew & Greek. Without these basic tools, you will never see through the translation barrier which hides a lot of the negative testimony on music in the scriptures. It's not that the translators did a bad job. There is just no way a word-for-word translation can convey all of the information from the original laguage to another without suffering what is called "loss in translation". I will give you an example from an experience I had during my personal bible study. It is one example of many which show that there are passages of scripture you can study over and over in an English translation and still never realize the loud and clear testimony which is contained in the original language.

I was reading in the book of Numbers and had read about Balak's dread of the approaching Israelites. He hired Balaam to curse them, but Balaam was forced to bless them instead. Since Balaam wanted to get paid, he slipped hints into his prophecies that told Balak how to get Israel to become vulnerable. Get Israel to fall into iniquity and become weak (Numbers 23:21). They did this by tempting the Israelite men with young Moabite women and getting them to join in their idolatrous worship rites, which included illicit sex. 24,000 Israelites fell to this ploy. I read through chapter 25 and tried several times to read on to chapter 26, but my eyes kept going back up the page to the name Zimri in 25:14. After 3 or 4 attempts to read further, and still finding my eyes back up on the name Zimri, I decided that maybe the Lord was trying to tell me that I should stop and see what is going on with this Zimri guy. He was one of 24,000 to sin in this matter. Why was he singled out for mention? Why were his and the Midianite woman's family ties recorded? Was it because they were from prominent families? Because they were so brazen in their actions? I felt led to look at what Zimri's name means in Hebrew. After finding out it means "musical" I had a feeling I knew where this all was heading. Below is the list of the names in Numbers 25:14 along with their meanings.

Zimri = "musical"
Salu = "weighed" (in the sense that a scale is
"suspended" or "hung up". The word
'selah' found in many of the psalms
is a closely related word which means
to stop or suspend an activity)

Simeon = "hearing" (an additional association between
the concepts of scales,weighing, and
hearing is the fact that Hebrew word
for the two plates in a set of scales
is the same word used for ears)

Cozbi = "false"

Zur = "rock, strength"

Midian = "strife, contention"

This passage seems like a simple genealogy in an English translation. But to someone who knows Hebrew, and the meaning of the names, it spells out a clear message, especially when viewed in the context of the Moabites efforts to keep the children of Israel out of the promised land. Music suspends your hearing and gets you involved in an illicit union with a false rock (strength, refuge, foundation) ,and with strife, and contention. It is noteworthy that the plague among Israel was not checked until Phineas nailed "music" (Zimri)and the "falsehood" (Cozbi)to the ground with a spear and killed them. I could have read my english bible for the rest of my life and not known there was any reference to music in the baal-peor incident.

Another discovery I made is that there are two well known bible characters who are both associated with music and funerals. One is Cain, the other is Judas. Cain's name in Hebrew is kah-yin, which comes from the root word 'koon' meaning "to strike a MUSICAL note,i.e. CHANT OR WAIL AT A FUNERAL".The Greek word for Judas's moneybag is glos-sok-om-on, meaning "a case to keep mouthpieces of WIND INSTRUMENTS in; by extension, A CASKET; or a purse".

There is also a long running connection in the bible between music and the concept of "striking" which stretches all the way from Cain (his name is closely associated with both music and striking) to the garden of Gethsemane. (Look up the word Gath [#1660]along with it's root word [#5059]and then the word Shemane [8081]. It should shed some light on what kind of pressure was causing Jesus to sweat as He did. Jesus quoted Zechariah 13:7 just before entering the garden - "STRIKE the Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered". It is interesting that the word for strike here is naw-kaw, and one of the synonyms for Cain's name is kaw-naw. The Hebrew letters used are not the same in both words, but Hebrew often uses similar sounding words in word play to draw attention to something)

Music is also associated with stealing from nearly cover to cover. The musical being described in Ezekiel 28 who most people agree is Lucifer (or Hey-lel in Hebrew), is also the first being to steal something. He stole glory that was due God to himself. The serpent, or nachash, in Genesis 3 is strikingly similar to the description of Lucifer in Ez.28. He used his the sound of his "hissing" timbrels and the sight of his "shining" pipes (the pipes mentioned in Ez.28:14 are gemstone mountings or sockets) to "enchant" Eve and steal her life. (as a verb, nachash means "to hiss", as a noun it means "shining one", and the primitive root word means "enhanter or sorcerer". When you look at the fact that a timbrel makes a "hissing" sound, and the gemstone mounting "pipes" would obviously be made of "shining" metal, there is a pretty strong thematic connection between Ez. 28 and Genesis 3) The connection of music to thievery is also found in the new testament with Judas stealing from the glossokomon, and also the Greek word for flute - aulos, which is in turn derived from the root word ah-ayr. Ah-ayr (air) has as it's primary concept the ability of air to lift things and take them elsewhere. Stealing is closely connected to this word and many of it's derivatives.
Both the old and new testaments are full of many more of these kinds of derogatory associations that link music to all kinds of evil characters and occurances, but it is like pulling teeth to get people to even look into it. Most will accuse anyone who tries to bring this large amount of information to them of being legalistic, mean-spirited, blow hards who have nothing better to do than write long posts. And to defend their love of music they hold up David and the references to music being commanded in the psalms, but refuse to look at the fact that:
#1. If you read the bible accounts dealing with the institution of the monarchy it is plain as day that it was NEVER God's desire for Israel to have a king other than the Messiah. Nonetheless, there are many places where God COMMANDS that a certain person be annointed king. How do you reconcile these two facts? Many times you need to look at when,how, and why God commands a certain thing, and also when and how that command is to be carried out. If you look at the psalms that command instrumental music, in all of them there are unmistakable referrences to things that will only occur during and after the millenium. Just as God has always planned that the LORD Jesus would be King over His people and yet nonetheless COMMANDED that kings be annointed in the old testament, He also has commanded musical praise for Himself, but this praise music spoken of in the psalms is not what "worship leaders" and "praise services" are offering to Him today. God does not have eardrums that vibrate when the "worship team" starts making the air vibrate with their instruments. That is how human ears hear things, but not God. He hears in spirit. "The LORD IS my strength and MY SONG and He has become my salvation" is a part of scripture everybody knows. How many think about what that is really saying? The word "song" used in the occurances of this phrase is Strong's 2176 zim-rawth - "from 2167, instrumental music; by implication - a praise song". The LORD does not need my musical songs, HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE MY MUSICAL SONG. It doesn't say "The LORD is the focus, or the subject, of my songs. It says the LORD IS my song. He is the only music we need.
#2.If the musical references in the psalms are referring to literal music being a command/ or allowance for the church, then those same psalms are commanding/allowing us to bring animal sacrifices and to keep new moons and feast days, which is clearly not in keeping with the teaching of the new testament. How can one claim that the references to music are literal but those for sacrifices and feast days are fulfilled in Jesus Christ and no longer literal and necessary? By that line of reasoning, the commands for music in the psalms have also been fulfilled in Jesus since "The LORD IS my strength AND my SONG".
#3. One thing I have never heard anyone bring up is the fact that altough the WORDS of the psalms that were used in the temple worship were preserved while Israel went into captivity in Babylon, the music was not. If music is such an important a part of worship, why did God not preserve the accompanying music, or the design and construction of the instruments? Today if you want to fulfill a command for playing literal musical instruments as outlined in the old testament, you are in quite a quandry, because no body even knows what the instruments listed in those commands looked or sounded like. I suppose most people think it would be okay to just substitute whatever kind of instruments tickle their fancy. You don't want to get TOO literal you know, just pick and choose the parts you like.
I'm sorry if this what I am writing sounds harsh, but God has given us His word for a reason, and before we can claim to be obeying it we should study it closely for ourselves. And no, I do not think I am obeying God perfectly, but I do know that music has no edifying effect in the SPIRITUAL life of a believer.

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Ken Sublett

Why you MISSED Jesus and worship today!

November 25 2007, 11:37 AM 

Isaiah 30 druming God's Enemies into Hell

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Ken Sublett

Why Praising will hide the truth

November 26 2007, 8:50 PM 

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Ken Sublett

Response ECKlessens

November 29 2007, 1:12 PM 

Click for Josephus 20

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this entire argument

December 5 2007, 3:30 PM 

is about the most irrelevant things. it's disgusting.

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Ken Sublett

Church is Synagogue or Ekklesia: verbal instruction ONLY.

December 20 2007, 6:40 PM 

Jesus gave power and headship to the synagogue which existed as the church in the wilderness. This is for those saved FROM the crooked generation: as the synagogue quaranteed the spiritual people FROM the worship of the starry host in the temple, the church or ekklesia quarantines believers from the Agora or Marketplace to which Jesus consigned all of the pipers, singers and dancers.

You can look at a collection of notes about the synagogue or ekklesia at this click site:

If you want to understand how the EXTERNAL PSALLO or making music explains why Jesus consigned the pipers, singers and dancers to the Agora or Marketplace you have to understand the NAMES of the different assemblies. Jesus cast out the musical minstrels trying to do their enchantment on the "dead girl." The word CAST OUT means "more or less violently like one casts out dung. He also consigned the pipers, singers and dancers" to the Agora or Marketplace. The similar Hebrew word has the meaning of "playing the flute, pollute and prostitute. As when Lucifer was cast as profane out of heaven." This paragraph has a clickable link to the AGORA which defines the EKKLESIA which absolutely outlaws acting, music or "making up your own sermon texs."

Because of formatting limits the following is a slow-loading image:

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Mike Clement

The Disciples

August 28 2010, 10:50 PM 

Christ Jesus did not call the disciples and then provide them with linguistic training. He told them to follow him. He gave his followers the great commission to go and make followers of him from all corners of the world. Get off your word kick, ask God what He wants you to do to bring Him glory, and I bet you it will be to let the light of Christ shine in you. Let God be angry with those you think do Him wrong. Be Christ like; turn the other cheek. One more thing: from my chair, the absolute best thing to bring anyone in line with truth is just to show them the Bible. Refute with the Bibile and the Bible only.

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Donnie Cruz

When they no longer want to be the disciples of Christ

August 29 2010, 10:18 PM 

When more leaders ["shepherds" of the flock?] outnumber the others in making decisions just to accommodate and conform to the teachings of other religions rather to teach that which they've been taught (I Tim. 3:2; II Tim. 2:2,24), then, that's when they invite troubles and problems for the congregation they serve.

Oh, wasn't it Richland Hills "Christian Church" [oops! originally "Church of Christ"] that has been removed from the "Directory of Churches of Christ"? I thought so.

What have they done besides having deaconesses along with deacons in the church? I thought so.

I know ... I know. It's not the fault of the members of the congregation. So, it must have been the leadership's fault? I thought so.

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Re: When they no longer want to be the disciples of Christ

August 31 2010, 2:04 PM 

Christ Jesus did not call the disciples and then provide them with linguistic training. He told them to follow him. He gave his followers the great commission to go and make followers of him from all corners of the world. Get off your word kick, ask God what He wants you to do to bring Him glory, and I bet you it will be to let the light of Christ shine in you. Let God be angry with those you think do Him wrong. Be Christ like; turn the other cheek. One more thing: from my chair, the absolute best thing to bring anyone in line with truth is just to show them the Bible. Refute with the Bibile and the Bible only.

Of course not: they had spent a life-time attending synagogue where the PREACHED Moses and the prophets by READING each REST DAY. Since the preacher is NOT the Lord, and He commanded us to teach what He taught, we need linguistic research to SMOKE OUT the false preachers and the false Greek professors either terminally ignorant or terminally evil.

Jesus cast out the musical minstrels (a female religious team) using a word "like dung."

He consigned the pipers, singers (lamenters) and dancers to the marketplace with of the other consumables: preaching, singing, dancing, acting, selling radishes and the "children" mpst often the leaders of the chorus.

In Revelation17 he warned about the Babylonian mother of harlots who used the "lusted after fruits" (same as in Amos) as speakers, singers, instrument players, craftsmen, grinders etc and called them sorcerers. The Brides and Bridegrooms were the holy harlot in all pagan worship.

And on and on: If people think the Word is silent that may be because they are delusional: the MARK is the spectacles of religious rituals claiming that the theatrical and musical performances are FROM God or worship God.

In no case is lying about all of the curse of animal sacrifices and burning (which Christ in the prophets say were not commanded) and saying that a "spirit" told them that "God commanded instrumental praise" and we had better not be disobedient KNOWING that they were sowing discord and "stealing the church house of widows" and breaking up families can ever be redeemable as all of the musical falls prove.

As long as the members are ENABLERS keeping up the budget with a reduced congregation, they are indictable co-conspirators in a sin which cannot be redeemed. Jesus Christ died to silence the Scribes and Pharisees which He called hypocrites by naming, in the Ezekiel 33 version written by the Spirit of Christ, slick preachers, singers and instrument players. The other hypocrites were those who WENT OUT pretending to hear from the Lord when they just wanted to watch the show. God has no pity for the blind who follow the blind.

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Judge Knott

Making Changes???

September 1 2010, 11:58 AM 


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Ken Sublett

Yes, one of the SEVEN CITIES set on a hill

September 1 2010, 7:25 PM 

Glad you are still alive 2Preach

Rev. 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication,
....and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev. 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness:
....and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,
....full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (can mean musical horns)


Therion Satyric drama. Hunting in an erotic sense. III. as a term of reproach, beast, creature,
h mousik aei ti kainon thrion tiktei
....Meaning A new Style of song or drama!

....A. mousikos
....B. aei always
....C. kainos , esp. of new dramas, the representation of the new tragedies,
.... (Aphrodisias dedicated to Aphrodite (ZOE); comedy, sexual love, pleasure,
....a woman's form of oath, Aster or Venus or ZOE.
....D. Tikto mostly of the mother
....E. of Rhea one of the zoogonic or vivific principles

Rev. 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour,
....and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,
....having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev. 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written,


>THUS hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. Amos 8:1
And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord unto me,
....The end is come upon my people of Israel;
....I will not again pass by them any more. Amos 8:2

Keluwb (h3619) kel-oob'; from the same as 3611; a bird-trap (as furnished with a clap-stick or treadle to spring it); hence a basket (as resembling a wicker cage): - basket, cage.

As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit:
therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. Je.5:27

Keleb (h3611) keh'leb; from an unused root mean. to yelp, or else to attack; a dog; hence (by euphemism) a male prostitute: - dog.

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly [multitude, swarm] of the wicked have inclosed me:
....they pierced my hands and my feet. Ps.22:16

His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs,
....they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Is. 56:10

Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
....and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
....they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. Is.56:11

And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay,
....and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven,
....and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. Je.15:3

Rev. 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

Bacchus or Dionysus was one of the diet sects silenced in Romans 14. Bacchus is Dionysus or the old wineskin god of wine, perversion and music. They "piped" hoping that the could initiate Jesus and others: when they bowed to Baal the initiation made them sing or weep and DANCE.

Opôr-a belonging to bakcheios III. metaph., life's summer, the time of youthful ripeness, Pi.I.2.5

Bakch-eios or Bakcheios, A. of or belonging to Bacchus and his rites, botrus S.Fr.255.2 ; nomos, rhuthmos X.Smp.9.3 , etc.: hence, frenzied, rapt

Pindar, Ishmian 2.[1] The men of old, Thrasybulus, who mounted the chariot of the Muses with their golden headbands, joining the glorious lyre, lightly shot forth their honey-voiced songs for young men, if one was handsome and had [5] the sweetest ripeness that brings to mind Aphrodite on her lovely throne. [6] For in those days the Muse was not yet a lover of gain, nor did she work for hire. And sweet gentle-voiced odes did not go for sale, with silvered faces, from honey-voiced Terpsichore. But as things are now, she bids us heed [10] the saying of the Argive man, which comes closest to actual truth: [11]

Money, money makes the man, he said, when he lost his wealth and his friends at the same time.

When you lie about the Word of God He sends you STRONG DELUDERS so that you believe a lie and and are damned: people are CONSUMED by the breath of their own lips. Lying Wonders are all of the rhetorical, performing an musical arts andcrafts which they CLAIM are from God or worship God as they engage in a totally effeminate and embarssing spectacle.

Once you make the connection that the ekklesia / synagogue is a "worship center" you have fallen into IMPURE worship. And once you make the connection between the arousal in your flesh and spiritual worship you are HARD WIRED and can never recover. If you are a financial enabler you too will fall into the ditch which is the PIT reserved for Lucifer (Zoe) and all he / she / it can seduce with the wind, string and percussion instruments.

Christ's Spirit to Isaiah said that the MARK in sight and sound of God driving His enemies into "hell" will be the wind, string and percussion instruments Lucifer--the singing and harp-playing prostitute--brought into the garden of Eden.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Sep 1, 2010 7:31 PM

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Judge Knott

What Hills?

September 2 2010, 11:40 AM 

Oddly enough there are no 'hills' in Richland Hills unless you consider the man made overpass on the highway!

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Ken Sublett

Re: RHCC Alive and Praising

September 2 2010, 1:08 PM 

I intended to quip that Armageddon speaks more of a polemic "war of words" instead of the war of the world. I see a small batch of PIMPLES on the plains trying to gain their mountain kingdom and become MOUNTAINS. One definition of the BEAST is Pan and the horns can be musical horns helping the little pimples look to the hills.

I try not to stretch things too far, but there is nothing in the Bible or realm of minimal common decenct which would allow humanoid species to lie, cheat and steal with seemingly miraculous powers. I got led into the following where the words CAN and HAVE meant:

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Daimonios , a, on: also os, on A.Th.892, Lys.6.32, OGI383.175 (Commagene):
2. of persons, t d. hs alths kai thaumast Id.Smp.219b; ho peri toiauta sophos d. anr ib.203a; daimonios tn sophian Luc.Philops.32: Comp. -teros D.C.53.8.

Thaumasto has the same meaning as the word for Lying Wonders including all of the hypocritic arts and crafts which work to fool the foolish."

An Example.

Plat. Sym. 203a and incantations, and all soothsaying and sorcery.
....God with man does not mingle:
....but the spiritual is the means of all society and converse of men with gods
....and of gods with men, whether waking or asleep.
Whosoever has skill in these affairs is a spiritual man to have it in other matters, in common arts and crafts, is for the mechanical.
....Many and multifarious are these spirits, and one of them is Love.

Thaumasto (wonder working) which is defined by the sophist words:
Sophos , , on, A. skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, harmatlatas s. Pi.P.5.115, cf. N.7.17; kubernts A.Supp.770; mantis Id.Th.382; oinothetas S.OT484 (lyr.); of a sculptor, E.Fr.372; even of hedgers and ditchers, Margites Fr.2; but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113; en kithara s.

Sophon: sophia , Ion. -i, h(, prop. A. cleverness or skill in handicraft and art, as in carpentry, tektonos, hos rha te pass eu eid s. Il.15.412; of the Telchines, Pi.O.7.53; h entekhnos s., of Hephaestus and Athena, Pl.Prt.32 1d; of Daedalus and Palamedes, X.Mem.4.2.33, cf. 1.4.2; in music and singing, tekhn kai s. h.Merc.483, cf. 511; in poetry, Sol.13.52, Pi.O.1.117, Ar.Ra.882, X.An.1.2.8, etc.; in driving, Pl. Thg.123c; in medicine or surgery, Pi.P.3.54; in divination, S.OT 502

Working Poieo to make or produce. Bring something new in existence 4. after Hom., of Poets, compose, write, p. dithurambon, epea, Hdt.1.23, 4.14; p. theogonin Hellsi Id.2.53; p. Phaidran, Saturous, Ar.Th.153, 157; p. kmdian, tragdian, etc., Pl.Smp.223d; palindian Isoc.10.64, Pl.Phdr.243b, etc.; poimata Id.Phd.60d: abs., write poetry, write as a poet

Miracles are signs:

Semeion signal for battle, ta s. rth, katespasth, Th.1.49,63, etc.; kathairein to s. to take it down, strike the flag, as a sign of dissolving an assembly, And.1.36 to ts ekklsias s. Ar.Th.278

The TECHNICAL or performing arts of rhetoric, singing, playing instruments and all of the crafts used in a pseudo church are defined as sorcery in Revelation 18:22-23

The SIGN is to "begin the battle" of Armageddon. It is also the MARK of "Striking the flag to dissolve the ekklesia" or Church. In Revelation 18 it is Jesus Christ Who has visited and removed the LAMPS and as God says in Amos "I will never pass by here again."

Those who DELIBERATELY START THE WAR to wrestle the "Richland" away from its founders so they can "make a place in the mainstream for musicians which both amaze and repel" have the burden to prove that any part of this is false reading.

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James Kisner

Just Checking In

October 8 2010, 12:17 PM 

Well, I see that is alive and well, and still spewing venom. It has been years since I visited this sight, but the vitriole is the same. Curse those who don't agree with the old line Church of Christ doctrines. Why am I not surprised? Phariseeism is as phariseeism does. You know, even when a C of C adds the instruments, it's still a C of C! I know people in those churches that now use instruments in worship, and while they enjoy their new found freedom, many of them still refuse to fellowship with christians in other denominations. They still believe as long as they're in a building that has "Church of Christ" over the door, they're just fine. Furthermore, they still have a form of godliness and deny the power. Instrumental music or a lack thereof is not going to bolster anyone's faith or cause the church to grow (unless you consider gaining members from other churches to be growth).

Life sustaining faith and real church growth only come from an "Acts 2" experience. I'm not just speaking of Acts 2:38. Rather, I am speaking of the WHOLE chapter. When God's Spirit falls on a church and signs and wonders occur (and yes, I mean prophecies, words of knowledge, healings, and SPEAKING IN TONGUES), then Christians' faith will be bolstered and the church will grow.

No, instrumental music, has little to do with being the church in the grander schem of things. It's being empowered by the Holy Spirit that makes the difference.

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James, you forgot to...

October 8 2010, 9:09 PM 

... tell us which brand of Pentecostalism is your favorite. I notice that the "venom" spewed all over you just does not have any effect on you.

You remind me of an ex-church member with the spirit-endowed capacity to SPEAK IN TONGUES:

"Could you just close your eyes just for a second and help me out. O-uh-God-those who have spiritual tongues go ahead and speak forth in them. Let's worship the Lord. Go to his throne because his perfect word comes down from his throne. It flows over the edge of the rivers of living water. Flows down ... down into our lives and into our spirits. Many times we have to ascend into heaven to receive the very word of the Lord. And it's hard for us to open up with our eyes around us, and see the things going on around us, to receive the word of the Lord. Let's just worship. Confess out loud. Let's just pray in the spirit right now."
Kalla ma sone, da fa kooka shores. It kin da la key la shone da la kene (his voice becomes hoarse and is reduced to an indistinguishable whisper). Bear fose sone ta wentta lone (voice trails off into a whisper again). Da lotta tongue de cush¬a¬wong do so coo toe. Ah shon da ba she dees ... O. Lord, your good ... Gash a la mon sewer. El ah ma she sa (more whispering). Fa kon a la ma dorman begetta see de so lawsuit...

"O, Lord, O. Lord ... Lord ... come ... into ... and reside, right now. You withhold nothing. You tell us that you withhold nothing. Freely receive this morning. We freely receive. We need your word, Father. We are as dry and thirsty as the land around us (voice, Right). We need to feel your hand upon us. We need to feel the finger that you carved the ten commandments out of in stone -burning down inside of us. Ahhh ... following your comforting word ... we needa a gentle word ... We need the word we can crawl up into your lap and say, 'Ah it is good. It's good to be with you. It's good to be with ye. It's good to be with ye.' (Long pause.) Thank you, Father. Thank ya fer turnip' the air conditioner on. Thank ya for answerin' our prayers and cooling down. Now, we can readily receive your word, Father. Father forgive us of any murmuring (Voice, that's right), and grumblin', which you hate (voice, Amen). Kept the Israelites in the wilderness forty years 'cause they did that. And we will not murmur this morning. We will not grumble at the things ... things ... that are happening around us. The heat (voice, That's right). The repositioning of men. Father, it is your will. It is your hand....

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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