Ken SublettMarch 21 2007 at 6:20 PM
from IP address 188.8.131.52
Everyone is titled to their opinion, so here is mine....
I am really concerned about Ken Sublett. It seems he has a lot of good info and yet a lot of time on his hands. Ken Sublett has become a celebrity on this forum. Everyone knows his name. Everytime I see a comment -I scroll through it because I think he must spend 24/7 on this site. There are plenty of self promotional websites out there like My Space.com. I urge christians everywhere, whether you agree or disagree with him, to lift him up in prayer.
A lot of interested non-christians read these forums and it's sad and unfortunate that it seems more important to make a point based on opinion rather than reaching out to spread the love of Jesus. I'm sure there will be a long winded response about this. I'm not judging.
We are called to love one another - God did not give us a list of do's and dont's when it comes to worshipping and praising him.
What truly is the goal of this forum?
If I didn't know the truth and love of Jesus and I had never been to church ---- I can't say that after reading all this bickering that I would ever go. I grew up in Church of Christ and one thing I remember vividly is "How will it look to others?"
How does this forum look to others? People are watching. It's shameful and we will all answer for it. Just because you aren't seen doesn't mean you are not heard. We will answer on the day of judgement for being a stumbling block to others.
Ken is ALIVE and well and PREACHES without Pay: doesn't bicker.
|March 22 2007, 9:32 PM |
I am a founding suggester of this forum and MY OCCUPATION (at 76+) is to TEACH and not squabble.
You will notice that no one sees fit to refute what I am teaching and therefore I don't bicker. Contrary to some senior pastors, you can speak the "good, bad and ugly" and being a CHRISTIAN I won't send someone to hurt you. I suggest that YOU cannot get a word in edgewise EVEN when the direct command is to SPEAK one to another using "that which is written."
Therefore, just like the preacher, I don't need an excuse to present bits and pieces from the Bible and ALL known history which hisses at the false teaching people actually SEEK OUT because they don't love the Lord. Paul used the word ANATHEMA and that means in the literature and in the Biblical examples that God DEDICATES you to the "temple" AS the sacrificial victim which BY DEFINITION is the only places on record where you will hear the sacrificial--meaning exorcism--music trying to CALL DOWN the good spirits and DISPELLING the demons. Why would anyone USE that as a DIRECT COMMAND to deliberately sow discord and SCATTER the remaining Disciples of CHRIST.
I have an 'encyclopedic' collection of MUSIC AS WORSHIP evidence and I can only post tidbits on a regular basis to tell those not ALREADY blinded and made deaf that they have joined a PAGAN WORSHIP CENTER for which God established the Qahal or church in the wilderness to QUARANTINE the people to their home area Until the Blast of Babylonian Sabbath worship where they take tithes from widows has BLOWN OVER.
How about letting me fulfill MY commission which I assure you gets no glory and I really had no choice. You will find me as often as I have time posting a TEACHING article. I don't BICKER: I quote the Biblical and Historical facts. I have given BIBLICAL teaching to REFUTE false teaching: Bickerers want about a thousand bucks a sermon for which you will learn nothing but MISinformation.
NOW SOME FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH WHICH NO ONE AT A ONCE-CHRISTIAN COLLEGE HAS A CLUE ABOUT EXCEPT TO USE IT TO DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD. Let me introduce a new book you might read with fear in trembling while the Rock and Roll to Curse your soul is BLOWING like a whirlwind and SHAKING like an earthquate BUT God "speaks in the silence of a whispered breeze."
The Book of Ecclesiasticus was in the BOUND VOLUME from which scholars know Jesus quoted. This book tells the same story as the rest of the Bible. Therefore, for those defending TWISTING all of the Bible and all know scholarship, it is important to understand that when the nation of Israel ROSE UP TO PLAY they engaged in the musical idolatry of the Egyptian etal "trinity" of gods under the golden calf.
God TURNED THEM OVER to the worship of the Heavenly Hosts (acts 7 etal) including Saturn (Sabbath) or 666: this was the common Egyptian and later Greek NEW WINESKINS religion of Dionysus. This abandonment is called ANATHEMA and Paul used it in the Greek sense which can be seen in Texas. WHY don't you question the use of a DEATH SENTENCE as a PROOF TEXT for your new "theater for unholy entertainment?"
"'You say, "We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone." But what you have in mind will never happen. Ezek 20:32
"It is said, in Tosaphoth, that the sin lay 'not in demanding a king, but in the mode of so doing, 'like all the nations' virtually equivalent to a wish to become like surrounding idolaters." Professor Keil finds the wrong "In... nothing more than forsaking him to serve other gods." (Haley, p. 229-230).
YOU are being commanded to repeat Israel's FATAL SIN: turned over to Sabazian worship which is the same DIONYSUS or New Wineskin practiced as the FIRST Abomination of Desolation and the perververted PIPING forcing others to SING and DANCE. The song was a LAMENT was a cry of PAIN because being initiated into the MARKETPLACE religion was bowing to BAAL to the beat of music to HIDE the cries of pain.
God prepared me to tell the YOUTUBE RELIGIONISTS that "church" named after KIRKE or the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) uses the celebrity speakers, singers and musicians as SORCERERS to "blow out the candles" (Rev 18).
I truly believe that GOD HAS COMMANDED them to do INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE and they have NO OPTION because it is their ANATHEMA meaning God has DEDICATED them and they are TRAPPED and can never get out.
THE PRIESTLY CLASS were like all pagan instutions AFTER God abandoned them FINALLY when they demanded that the elders hire them a DOMINANT PASTOR. The Prophets radically condemn musical practices and declare those who practice it as ANATHEMA-beyond redemption of which the MUSIC was the MARK as much as the CAUSE.
HERE IS THE LEGALISTIC PATTERNISM BEING PROMOTED.
Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire, and his word burned like a torch. Ecclesiasticus 48:1.
He brought a famine upon them, and by his zeal he made them few in number. Ecclesiasticus 48: 2.
By the WORD of the Lord he shut up the heavens, and also three times brought down fire. Ecclesiasticus 48: 3.
How glorious you were, O Elijah, in your wondrous deeds! And who has the right to boast which you have? Ecclesiasticus 48: 4.
You who raised a corpse from death and from Hades, by the word of the Most High; Ecclesiasticus 48: 5.
who brought kings down to destruction, and famous men from their beds; Ecclesiasticus 48: 6.
who heard REBUKE at Sinai and judgments of vengeance at Horeb; Ecclesiasticus 48: 7.
who anointed kings to inflict retribution,
and prophets to succeed you. Ecclesiasticus 48: 8.
And Hosea and all Old Testament history agrees about Israel and then Judah. Israel according to Amos practiced the same MUSICAL IDOALTRY as sentenced to at Mount Sinai.
O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. Hosea 13:9
I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities?
and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a KING and PRINCES Hosea 13:10
I gave thee a king in mine anger,
and took him away in my wrath. Hosea 13:11
So, when you grow GREAT and are LIFTED UP WITH PRIDE, you are made ANATHEMA: the Lucifer principle who was/is the 'singing and harp playing prostitute" in the Garden of Eden. So, MUSIC is the MARK of all Biblical FALLS FROM GRACE. God SENT you strong deluders to MAKE YOU believe a lie and be DAMNED: Anathema means "dedicate you to the Lord for holding for sacrifice" and always means MUSIC to take you captive.
ALL of the Bible is focused on the TERMINAL SIN of musical idolatry: that is why being told that 'God commanded Instrumental Praise" and we must not be DISOBEDIENT is probably a fact. But the dedication is NOT for salvation but damnation.
Your preacher cannot find ONE JOT or tittle to show approval for music EXCEPT as the terminal mark.
Ezek 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness,
that I would scatter them among the heathen,Ezek 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments,
and disperse them through the countries;
but had despised my statutes,
and had polluted my sabbaths,
and their eyes were after their fathers idols.
SABBATH means REST: The church in the wilderness was for REST, reading and rehearsing the Word of god which was what Paul commanded Timothy and practiced. Numbers 10 OUTLAWS instruments and loud rejoicing for this Holy Convocation as "a school of the Word of God." The REST Jesus brought was widely used meaning STOP the speaking, singing and music. POLLUTING the seventh-of-the-Seven or the first-of-the-seven had the same meaning for the Lord's Day.
Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'... fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), ... denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute):.. defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
Isn't THAT why John identified the singers and musicians as SORCERERS who STEAL from the poor and why they are OPERATIVES of the Mother of Harlots? This is the same word meaning LUCIFER was Cast as PROFANE out of heaven
and why he / she / it is called the SINGING AND HARP PLAYING PROSTITUTE who wholly seduced EVE in a sexual sense according to Paul.
"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).
"In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the musical form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).
Now, I cannot see why an outsider would consider this BICKERING such that the "brotherhood" is tainted. These SAME people love to say that the ANTI
-instrumental church is TAINTED like "fire bombers of restaurants" and "muggers of ladies wearing furs" (re Shelly) BECAUSE we do not USE and continue to CONDEMN the use of instrumental music.
So, if you are one of the large numbers of readers of this forum please be advised that freedom in Christ gives every member the right to "read, interpret and speak" the Word of God because He only promised to be with the TWOS AND THREES and promised NOT to be with the masses. This is contrary to a few revolters in the church of Christ who seek to build COMMUNITY CHURCHES which are clearly DEFINED as COMMUNES which seek to use up all of your time and money: even hiring someone to aid you in FAMILY LIFE. Read Shelly who speaks for a tiny few withing churches of Christ who DENY you this freedom because it lets bickerers like me to quote THE TRUE BIBLE.
I will continue to post TRUTH and invite anyone to correct me (it happens often). If I am correct then my job is to be a WITNESS on the watchtower and I would share in the TERMINAL LOSTNESS if I didn't tell the reading world that preachers have always LIED about God and TO God by pretending to be TEACHERS but having no love for the Word and therefore NO love for the Living Word. By the very PROOF that we have to GO OUTSIDE of the masses to FIND and SUFFER reproaches with Jesus being PERFORMED in the Agora Worship Centers where Dionysus is the god of the Agora, you CANNOT be an EKKLESIA and a TEMPLE BUILDER at the same time.
For those who have ENDORSED the musical paganism because they believed a lie then they WILL be damned and have lost any choice once they are DEDICATED to be offered as MARKED by the music of Abaddon or Apollyon.
NOT TO WORRY ABOUT KEN: He has been alive to watch apostasy of BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS.
He has been where we ALWAYS say we would LIKE to be and confess and walk with Jesus to the Cross. WWJD? We know what He did; He CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG and used the same PSALLO "rope" to make a scourge to drive the THIEVES out of the "house of prayer" and to the AGORA along with the pagan temples, sellers of sick speeches, poems, songs, bodies and radishes.
According to prophecy -- well defined in the DSS version of Psalm 41 -- the Musical Mockers derided Jesus right up to "the foot of the old rugged cross." Being FREE IN CHRIST isn't it wonderful that Ken has escaped and can decide how KEN spends his time and money? Besides, I am a LEARNER or DISCIPLE and I love to share free of charge.
Why not join the DIALOG (never meant preach) and read Hezekiah's Plague Stopping Proposal and tell me why both instrumental and non-instrumental preachers LIE by saying that god EVER commanded the use of instruments in the worship of God by the people.
The preacher and enablers needs to REPENT quickly if repentance is possible which Hebrews 6 and all of the MUSICAL falls from Grace seem to prove. If you cannot leap the HURDLE missed by ALMOST ALL RM preachers then God does not INTEND for you to understand just as the Jewish Clergy were NOT taught the truth. My hill village is SO BACKWARD that it doesn't even have a place for old men to sit, whittle, spit and watch the girls: what would YOU have me do with my time?
Spread the Word
|March 23 2007, 10:48 AM |
I agree that the main thing we should be concerned about are the lost. I too, feel that some of the things posted by Mr. Sublett could be sending the wrong message. We need to sow love for our fellow man and reach out to them through the name of Jesus Christ. We just all need to keep that in mind.
I find Mr. Sublett's postings hard to read and follow. I think most people probably do and I for one, see his name and sometimes pass his postings altogether because I know they are going to be too long, wordy, and hard to follow.
I hardly understand myself.
|March 23 2007, 5:06 PM |
Did you listen to the three-sermon thesis which twisted each and every Biblical and historical quote about "music in worship?" If so, did you believe all of it, any of it or none of it. If you did not listen to the tapes then my point by point rebuttal will make no sense. The PhDuh's mostly streaming out of Texas believe or PRETEND to believe this false teaching which SAYS that the "paying audience" can be fooled ALL of the time.
THE GENERAL THEOLOGY in almost all churches of Christ is that God COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL worship BUT the LAW has changed and God doesn't love to be fed, clothed, housed, entertained and even sexually stimulated any more. That ignores the context of the PROOF PASSAGES and shows terminal ignorance of the TIME and EVENT flow leading to the demise of the Israelite state. I assure you that you have to stop listening to sermons and songs INTENDED to bleed off worship from God and put in HARD LABOR to wake up to the LOST BIBLE caused by chaining ill-prepared preachers to the PULPIT. God is not spoon fed by sermonizing and versifying but is found only by those DILIGENTLY SEEKING HIM (that unique worship word used by Paul.)
Rick's thesis says that God COMMANDED instrumental praise (whatever that be) and WE must not be disobedient. This, too, is the "doctors of the law who take away the key to knowledge" using the SAME misinformation to insist that WE ARE STILL UNDER THAT LAW.
Did you read enough of the Scriptural stuff in color to grasp that God ABANDONED Israel to worship the starry host (Acts 7 etal) when they rose up in musical PLAY at Mount Sinai? Therefore, these events are not LEGALISTIC PATTERNISM for the School of the Bible which as synagogue began in the wilderness.
I can post lots of parallel passages to prove that the Monarchy, king, kingdom and temple was the final curse when the elders demanded a "senior pastor" so they could worship like the pagans. One of the curses was forcing the young boys to make instruments to run before the warrior's chariots: in fact ALL of the Levitical Noise Makers were warriors under the KING and COMMANDERS of the army. The other was taking a TITHE of income which was and is robbery.
Is it not worth some hard work to stand on the watchtower and tell people that the WORSHIP OF THE STARS has been restored and an ACU writer DEMANDS that we use the Old Testament in our theology and calls for the FIRES to fall on us? I am certain that his prayers will be answered.
It is a fact that most of us have been musically and sound-byte brain damaged and that is THE reason that we have turned "the school of the Bible" or ekklesia into a "worship center." Men like Lynn Anderson and Rubel Shelly say that YOU cannot read language in linear sequential words and THAT is why they are propping you up with IMAGES and SYMBOLS.
That is because ALL definitions of singing and instruments points to ENCHANTMENT and why John called the singers and musicians SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world (Rev 18) and defined the MOTHER OF HARLOTS in Revelation 17.
I post raw data: I don't have time to digest it but no one can refute it. If that is true then the churches in Texas are in a heap of doodoo and loving it.
However, the Texas THEOLOGY tends toward restoring the Levitical System which was a CURSE added because of musical transgression. That will prevail if the REMNANT theory means anything and the question is true: "Shall He find faith when He returns?" No, almost none.
My job is to YELL the Biblical and historical evidence which REFUTES most of what we not call CHURCH and then the blood will be off my hands: those who WANT to find out the truth WILL find out. Just make sure that you are not one of those Jesus defined as not OF TRUTH or OF FAITH because I cannot be your excuse.
Re: I hardly understand myself.
|April 11 2007, 12:08 PM |
I don't even know where to begin.
I appreciate your years of dedication to God's work and you obvious studying of His word. Unfortunately, what you're saying is a clanging cymbal. What you're saying no one understands. What good is it to "teach" when your students don't understand what you're saying.
I was doing research on worship and came across your dribble. I'm sorry I have. Your attempts to intimidate are counterproductive. "Teach and admonish one another," does not include belittling. You may defend yourself and say you're not belittling others but with pages of response with references NO ONE understands, but you are. Maybe you should take a lesson on teaching from Jesus. He would use items around Him or events of the time to illustrate His message. I'm one of the stupid ones. So speak on my level and MAYBE I will listen.
You may be wondering (but probably not) - I'm not defending, supporting or otherwise promoting musical instruments or any other forms of "pagan" worship in my concern above. I'm simply concerned for those who may not understand the churches of Christ and happen to read your arrogant rant and believe we ALL think this way. Maybe you're right, but, until you learn to teach on a level the rest of us can comprehend you're words are a noisy gong.
Arrogant Ranting you can Refute.
|April 12 2007, 8:29 AM |
You should understand that the NACC has their own stable of teachers actively trying to seduce peaceable churches of Christ into confirming their false teachings about music.
They have enlisted a few men to engage in a mock battle: A PRO instrumental "church of Christer" dialogs a PRO instrumental "Christian churcher."
These "dialogs" have been trafficed as UNITY MEETINGS in an attempt to RETURN the non-instrumental "erring brethren"--called a SECT--back into the fold of those identified as a CHURCH. The Church of Christ scholars do NOT understand that the Church of Christ was never part of the Disciples Denomination -- including the later secting of the Christian Church -- when they refused to be COUNTED in the 1906 census.
While the colleges invite men like David Faust in to discuss UNIFYING that which was never united, David Faust unloads the whole litany of FALSE TEACHING about the Bible and historical theologians. That is the same script read by Rick Atchley. The NACC and fellow "unifiers" then jump to spread their SIDE of the debate far and wide and church of Christ debaters sit in stunned silence. It is not arrogant to state that based on all of the papers and books, the Church of Christ rests its practice on older scholars. Therefore, they lie and call it "traditionalism" meaning that they CAUGHT the non-machine position like a disease. However, because MACHINE ritualists have infiltrated our universities, preachers accept false teaching and lack grounding in the Old Testament or scholarship. Nor, have the Greek gurus ever read "beyond the sacred page" of scholars who quote scholars who quote scholars.
Rick Atchley and others taunt: "No church of Christ college or university even defends the ANTI-instrumental position."
I remember a young preacher in middle Tennessee tauntingly reporting that he had been discussing the issue with a "brother" preacher and he was convinced to NO LONGER preach against instruments."
This becomes psychological violence making the LAITY too fearful of the NIKE to ever seem ignorant, legalistic or sectarian by ever opposing "God's annointeds."
As "proof 4" David Faust "arrogantly" asserts that Jesus had nothing to say about the instrumental / non-instrumental issue. I arrogantly assert that as the Spirit OF Christ in the PROPHETS He refuted the PRIESTLY RELIGION which was "the worship of the starry hosts." (Read Acts 7 and then I can point out a half dozen "prophetic" parallels.) Even IF Jesus DID NOT discuss instruments it might have been because both singing and instruments were OUTLAWED for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. As a "people" -- as opposed to a NATIONAL teknokrat -- Jesus exampled the synagogue which "had no praise service." This is based on a direct command, all historic examples and minimal common sense: you don't MUSICATE in a school of the Bible.
Having DIVERTED the scholars, David Faust goes on to discuss HYPOCRITES. And there we have all of the "unifiers" with their rants down:
Jesus DID discuss rhetoricians, singers and musicians and called them HYPOCRITES. How was that? Look at my more complicated (includes Scripture) diatribe under David Faust. Jesus also identified the trumpet IN the synagogue as the mark of a Hypocrite. He did many more ACTED PARABLES which He said, HID the truth from the Religious operatives.
Note the fairly STRAIGHT FORWARD flow (I confess to confusing by quoting Scripture and history they twist). HERE IS THE STRAIGHT SCOOP:
David Faust asserts: "Jesus did not address the instrumental issue."
I QUOTE Jesus who Quotes Isaiah and Ezekiel to IDENTIFY and define HYPOCRITES. These were slick speakers (for hire), singers and instrument players.
First, I quote Isaiah who was understood by Jesus, Paul and many of the historic scholars of note but probably no preacher has ever read it (I dogmatize: you can refute me)
ALL mouth religion is HYPOCRITICAL because SPIRITUAL worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit. That leaves church (Paul called it SYNAGOGUE) as A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE as clearly defined in the NOT music passages.
If these false teachers SELL TICKETS to twist all known evidence with the MOTIVE of introducing instruments KNOWING that they will deliberately sow discord; and IF they tell you that the Holy Spirit told them to contradict all who went before them; and If I (not corrupting the Word by selling at retail) post BIBLICAL TEXTS and THOSE scholars they TWIST; and others call that RANTING then it proves Jesus warning that "doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge."
I rantingly assert that they TWIST all known evidence.
I arrogantly quote THEM and then quote the Bible and the scholars they twist.
YOU, need to take the INITIATIVE to sort out the TRUTH from the LIES.
I don't get paid so you cannot intimidate me.
Get off the computer
|April 16 2007, 2:05 PM |
Here's the deal;
This whole thing is completely unChristian. And I am positive the Jesus is shaking his head at us all for being involved in it as I type. So let's get off of this useless site, where we waste all of our time arguing with our own BROTHERS and SISTERS IN CHRIST, and start spreading the love of Jesus to the world.
When judgement day comes, and Jesus asks what we accomplished during our lives...what are we to say? "I spent hours upon hours arguing online with my fellow Christians to prove..." absolutely nothing.
Get off the computer and start living for Christ, and I'll do the same. This is the last time I will post on here, or ever visit this site. This is highly divisive and is a complete SIN. God, forgive me for ever stumbling upon this website.
Please listen to this desperate cry, it is not from me, but from the Holy Spirit of God.
Why shoot the messenger?
|April 17 2007, 10:58 AM |
We have made it absolutely clear and no one can dispute it:
Those who had a long-term agenda to slowly "boil the frog" and add musical instruments and sow discord and break up families:
Have worked in consert (we might call that conspiracy) with the Christian Church and have used their PRIESTLY religion books and sermons.
I have told the world that ALL of the proof texts used to prove that PSALLO commands instrumental music (for the first time in ANY history in the year 1878) quote the PLUCKING part but do not say that PSALLO never means to play an instrument. If you PLUCK a harp string then you pluck: it means nothing unless you define WHAT is to be plucked.
While it is not nice to shoot the messenger, I suspect that I would also be embarassed if my "fleecees" discovered that the CONTEXT of their prooftexts ALSO point to males plucking the harp string (and being labeled as vile) in order to PLUCK a young boy whos hairS had been PLUCKED.
Sure, THAT is what Jesus pointed out as the Spirit OF CHRIST in the Prophets and in MANY spoken and acted parables used to HIDE the truth from the Jewish religionists.
If it is not CHRIST LIKE to tell people that the universal PERSONAE of religious performers is that of gender-challenged and most performed "religion" and THAT has not changed in OUR culture,
Then WHY is it so CHRIST LIKE to sow discord just to MAKE A PLACE IN THE MAINSTREAM and actully USE them in the "Holy Places" claimg to LEAD the "audience" into God's presence when EKKLESIA is a ONE-ANOTHER speaking that which is written school of the Bible?
Rather than being threatened by this, perhaps there is time in Germany to REPENT of using a Navigating the Winds of Change which was articulated perfecty in Mein Kampf.
I suggest that someone should make sure that the modern Germans understand how para-church groups use the methods which destroyed their nation by a man who CLAIMED to be FOLLOWING IN THE STEPS OF JESUS
who had--as he MISread the Bible-- "murdered" a million Jews as the APPROVED EXAMPLE. He, too, heard the SPIRITS murmur instructions to him
. Jesus speaks through the Word as His SPIRIT and source of LIFE.
You should also make sure that ALL German churches read the following which shows that Richard Wagner was Hitler's Musical Worship Minister used to COLLECTIVIZE the HUMAN MATERIAL.
There is no exception to the fact that MUSICAL PERFORMANCE and all PERFORMANCE ARTS is DEFINED under the heading of DEMAGOGUE. There is no exception that musical performance has always been used to COLLECTIVIZE the tribes to walking in the STEPS OF THE TYRANT connected to DEMAGOGUE connected to KLEPTOMA.
These PATHETIC BOOKS and sermons 100% of the time lie about God and to God by quoting or even alluding to isolated parts of verses of the priestly, civil state religion to which God abandoned Israel because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
They have never read the context nor understood the story line of the curse of the Monarchy (senior pastor).
Not even in the VILEST of pagan temples--of which Jerusalem was one of the worst--could slick speakers, singers or musicians enter into the Holy Place as a SHADOW type of the body or church of Christ, EVEN to clean out the garbage left over from musical idolatyr.
Therefore, false teachers not only try to mislead using a Goyim or Gentile-like "Stopping the purge" animal sacrifice as GOD COMMANDING INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE and then WE MUST NOT BE DISOBEDIENT, they go beyond what would be permitted in the Mother Goddess temples where all of the priests and singers were emasculated or even sex-changed but NEVER allowed in the CELLA or "presence of the god."
Therefore, for Bible-literate readers, any attempt to IMPOSE the curse of the WORSHIP OF THE STARRY HOST including Saturn numbered 666, from the PRIESTLY-CIVIL-MILITARY sacrificial system would border on mental confusion.
On the other hand
the Spirit OF Christ spoke through the PROPHETS
and not through Kings (dominant pastors) HAND PICKED to carry out the captivity and death penalty imposed BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
Read Acts 7 where Stephen ALSO was silenced
because HE told the "generation of vipers" or "crooked generation" (meaning perverted skolion singers) EXACTLY what I have said
and MOST IF NOT ALL preachers have been BLINDED about.
Now, killer of the messenger, You have never read anything on this or other threads by this writer which did NOT;
Attempt to impose some Bible literacy 101aaa.
Post the CONTEXT of their PROOF text for which they have granted themselves "liberty" to rewrite the narrative.
Post some of the Story Line so that baptized believers with A holy spirit will not be fleeced by someone wanting to build an ark in the parking lot: Especially if they CLAIM that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them. All of the Bible DISPUTES that false claim to the GODHOOD.
You, TOO-NERVOUS friend, seem to be laboring under the illusion created by NOT ever beginning with Genesis 1 and then seeing that the Serpent in the garden was a Musical Enchanter. Typified as Lucifer "the singing and harp playing prostitute."
If you have been "fabricated" in any of the ONCE-Christian Bible Schools
Firsly, been STARVED for lack of understanding the Old Testament because none of the PhDuhs have a clue based on their books, sermons and PRODUCT.
You probably have been INDOCTRINATED by men who were ALREADY duped into the UNITY MOVEMENT meaning YOU CAPITULATE, and CANNOT tell the truth about the MUSIC-MEANS-IDOLATRY construct.
They have written and confessed that the colleges should exercise a PROPHETIC ROLE to be Chanellers and Facilitatorsy of "advanced degrees" (about 212 degrees F) to GO OUT into "conservative churches" and RESTRUCTURE THEM. I have reviewed a bunch of books and articles and I make the RAW ASSERTION that they CANNOT ethicallly quote men like Chrystom or Luther without EITHER deliberately lying or by simply QUOTING what some other PhDuh wrote in order to get that new still-bleeding sheep skin.
Now, I know fully well that the INSTRUMENAL
ONCE Church of Christ diverters have TEAMED with INSTRUMENTAL
Christian churches to go on MISSION and WORK LIKE LITTLE JESUS WALKERS to CONVERT people to the Christian Church meaning INSTRUMENTAL.
One of our "conservative" universities sent out their THEATRICAL DEPARTMENT dressed as GARGOYLES (demons) to LEAD more people to Christ.
Now, you may need to CONFESS that you REALLY have one of those hidden agendas to TAKE CAPTIVE the German churches using the same SCHEME which worked on the HUMAN MATERIAL FOR HITLER into being a COMMUNITY which means COMMUNE. One of the leading changelings even quoted MACHIAVELLI to explain why it takes a DECADES HIDDEN AGENDA unless you intend to use more VIOLENT MEANS. OTHERWISE, I am not sure why you are so opposed by FREE SPEECH. The torch has passed from neo-pagan churches to individuals INTO WHOSE HANDS Jesus put the GO button in the first place.
Because you cannot find a SINGLE case where I have not posted the FULL CONTEXT
which the preacher-hirelings CHRUNCH into little pieces to DIVERT and SOW DISCORD (sure some boast about infiltrating and diverting), I think that the READERS and "sponsoring churches" and members whose funds are being DIVERTED to the enemy should WAKE UP
I accept that as DEFACTO PROVEN because you WILL NOT defend a single one of the PROOF ASSERTIONS used to sow discord, nor will you EXPLAIN to people why my IN CONTEXT quoation is NOT following in the Steps of Jesus Christ who as the spirit OF Christ told all of the PROPHETS to radically condemn the PRIESTLY religionism which STARVED the people for LACK of the Word of God. The MARK is always MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.
If you are not nice I am going to begin posting the ABSOLUTE PROOF that "preacher" is not on the approved list in Ephesians 4; that Paul called the "manny" robbers, that Peter called the "manny" corrupters of the word meaning '"selling at retail" and that PREACHING as an act was IMPOSED at about the same time that SINGING and the use of NON-Scripture songs SLITHERED IN--about the year 373: too late to be New Testament Church. Catholic added music because, they confessed, it was COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. Alexander Campbell called "trained and placed" preachers the CRAFTIEST CRAFT OF ALL.
I might begin my rant that there is NO LAW OF TITHING and there is NO LAW OF GIVING because Paul told me so and the historical church was LITERATE enough not to have "passing the plate" as an ACT of worship. "Conservative" scholars of the Restoration Movement deny that BUDGET is part of School of the Bible. Thomas Campbell DENIED that any elder or deacon has any authority to add the ANXIETY of imposing DEPT: Paul denied that you have the right to impose PLEASING or "creating mental excitement" which is connected to rhetoric, singing and instruments.
Those are the TWIN TOWERS upon which modern COMMUNE builders build with all of the earmarks of a CULT. The Cockatrice's eggs are finally HATCHING OUT.
Re: Why shoot the messenger?
|June 5 2007, 10:51 AM |
Music has been around much longer than your religion.
Man writes the "word of God", not God.
Man translates, interprets, and reinterprets the "word of God", so how do we know what truly is the "word of God"?
For such a well read and learned man, you reek of ignorance and intolerance.
Yes! Music is a long time among us.
|June 12 2007, 5:53 PM |
Glad that you recognize what none of what Chrsytom and Paul called demon worshipers know.
It is a Biblical fact that Cain is said to be OF that wicked one because Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense according to Paul. The word Cain is derived from a "musical note or" MARK.
The Bible also says that when Lucifer called "the singing and harp playing prostitue" invaded the garden he/she/it brought wind, string and percussion instruments. That is why the serpent is NOT: the word identifies a Musical Enchanter. Of course Jesus said that parables had HIDDEN the truth from the mercinaries "from the foundation of the world." That is why Paul and ancient scholars knew more about the word EVE than almost anyone today.
Perhaps that is why Isaiah30 says that the Syrians representing all of the NATIONAL systems of which Israel had been cursed into will be beaten into the type of HELL with wind, string and percussion instruments.
That fits with now where the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) USES the FRUITS people lust after and slick deceptive speakers, singers and instrument players as SORCERERS (Rev 18).
So, it comes as no surprise to the few who obey Jesus and Paul and worship in the PLACE of the spirit because the DOGS are outside, to discover that Biblical history is like that serpent or ourobus which is a serpent with its TAIL in its MOUTH and we find the beginning time prostitute religion just like the end-time prostitute religion. So, if you always wanted to see how Lucifer turned the TRICK on Eve (zoe) just attend a MUSICAL CHRISTIANISM next Sunday.
So, glad you are agreeing with me. Ken
Re: Why shoot the messenger?
|February 8 2012, 12:54 PM |
Why shoot the messenger? Because the meesenger is a raving lunatic.
|February 8 2012, 2:44 PM |
"Of particular interest is the way that early modern playwrights, music theorists, and theater apologists addressed this conflated language of the "enemy," by echoing the same connections between sexuality and playing found in the most virulent antitheatrical tracts.
"As this paper will demonstrate, by "playing" with the conflated language, these writers defended their art,
justifying their existence in a society that was both seduced and repulsed by them. By claiming the polemical antitheatrical language, these players escaped from the ideological margins to which their opponents had tried to relegate them.
Using the artifices of mimesis (imitation) and comedy
they pointed out and defused their opponents' anxieties about music, theater, and sexuality,
creating a space for players in the cultural mainstream.
"Among more sophisticated persons it was recognized that many of the prophets were merely lunatics and that their utterances were misleading; but the popular assumption of divine guidance was not readily abandoned." (Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 106, Knopf)
(Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 106, Knopf
"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit (See 1 Cor 14) no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence any abnormal emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance
in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods,
and many tribes supposed lunatics and sexual deviants to be divinely possessed.
"In most early societies, moreover, men evolved techniques
for deliberately inducing the abnormal forms of consciousness
in which they supposed themselves to achieve union with divine power,
sometimes by the use of drugs and other physiological stimuli,
sometimes by hypnotic dances and music.
The wild utterances (praise singing) to which they gave vent on such occasions were regarded as the words of a god and were interpreted as divine commands or predictions of future events." (Parkes, H.B., Gods and Men, p. 32-33).
"In this fashion every common tribal interest--the recurrence of the seasons, the increase of the food supply, successful hunting--was likely to become embodied
in some regularly repeated ceremony, which usually included group dancing, singing, and feasting.
Besides enabling men to express, and thereby to allay, anger and anxiety, such ceremonies also promoted tribal unity and strengthened the loyalty of the individual to tribal traditions,
for the emotional excitement they aroused had the effect of breaking down the barriers between individuals
and thus fusing all tribesmen into a collective whole. Meanwhile, whole systems of magical devices were gradually elaborated." (Parkes, p. 29)
"The development both of religion and of the arts can be traced back in a continuous line to the hunting era. The group ritual of the primeval tribesmen were the origin not only of all religious ceremonial, but also of the drama and of poetry and music, while magic gave birth to the visual arts." (Parkes, p. 30).
"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence any abnormal emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods, and many tribes supposed lunatics and sexual deviants to be divinely possessed.
All Sabazianism or Stary Worship (and serpents) to which God abandoned the PATTERNISTS Levites and those who claim that a spirit told them to "follow their patternism." had to be MALES but they had to perform the roles of women. The Levites "praise" originated in Egypt was to to threaten sexual abuse to threaten the enemy. The clothes worn by not-commanded priests were the Stola or the garb of bad women. The clothes, the songs and the style of presentation was effeminate. That also defined rhetoric in the preachery style. That is why God left us a MARK to sort out the Crooked Generation: the command was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word. That is the ONE PIECE PATTERNISM because the Lord's Supper is a teaching aid.
|February 9 2012, 11:56 AM |
More equivocation. You cannot define a word in one sense and then use it in a different sense as support. Your argument is invalid.
Your task: find a ethical-moral connection to words like "psallo"
|February 9 2012, 2:10 PM |
When up to 1/2 of the congregations leaves rapidly they may not know about the persona of ALL religious music and musicians. The Greeks taught that "if a man plays and sings he is either drunk, perverted or just having fun." Plato expressed the view that if a performer came into a civil district and wanted to get paid they would cover him with Honey and dab him with cotton (tar and feather) because no such person was allowed in their community. Religious musicians were always mocked as PARASITES.
"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.
He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.
Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.
Similar opinions may be found in the writings of Philo. On one occasion he spoke of the Jewish "Feast of Fasting," used by the Greeks for the Day of Atonement:
"Now, many a man from the false religions, which are not ashamed of criticising what is noble, will ask: how can there be a feast without carousing and overeating, without the pleasant company of hosts and guests, without quantities of unmixed wine, without richly set tables and highly stacked provisions of everything that pertains to a banquet, without pageantry and jokes,
bantering and merry-making to the accompaniment of flutes and citharas, the sound of drums and cymbals and other effeminate and frivolous music of every king,
enkindling unbridled lusts with the help of the sense of hearing. For in and through the same [pleasures] those persons openly seek their joy, for what true joy is their they do not know.
Women's singing was a vital part of all pagan worship. In very early times women became priestly singers of the gods in the temple.
"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal: these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (End of Quasten)
"Before the establishment of the kingdom under Saul, it was the women who, as in every young civilization, played a major part in the performance of music. Such figures as Miriam, Deborah, Jephthah's daughter, and the women hailing the young hero David have become almost archetypes of female musicians.
"Characteristic of all these cases is the familiar picture of a female chorus, dancing and singing, accompanied by frenzied drum-beating.
This is the scene known to the entire Near East, and not
"even the severe rule of Islam could wholly suppress this age-old practice." (Int Dict of the Bible, Music, p. 457).
"There is incontrovertible archaeological evidence for the antiquity of the musical guilds themselves. The Phoenicians (Canaanites) outshone their contemporaries in music, and the Israelites were early influenced by them.
Musical guilds of the Hebrews may be traced back in some instances,
to old Canaanite families whose designations, such as Hemen the Ezrahite (I Chron. 2:6),
became a part of later Hebrew family names." (Unger, Merril, Archaeology and the Old Testament, Zondervan, P. 216-7)
THE A CAPPELLA WORSHIP LEADER: THE GOAT SINGERS OR CASTRATOS.
A deeper-reaching attempt to explain the significance of the castrato age has been made by Moses (1960) in an interesting paper on the psychology of the castrato voice. He interprets the emergence of this vocal fashion as the fulfillment of an age-old dream wish of bisexual hermaphroditism. Even if one does not follow Moses in some of his somewhat overdrawn conclusions, there is left enough of a solid basis for his theory. Hermaphroditic mythology plays an important part in cultural history. In collections of primitive art one sometimes see sculptures of idols each with female breasts and a penis
Voices mirror not only individual characters but the spirit of a period as well. In this sense the voice of the castrato personifies the bisexual ideal with its unity of a female voice in a man's body. In the mythological atmosphere of the baroque opera the castrato portrayed gods and mythological persons who presented male and female characteristics in a vocal hermaphroditic combination.
In an unfinished book that Paul Moses left at his death he predicted, over ten years ago, quite correctly the approach of another age of crossover of the sexes. The young generation of today favors fashions that obliterate the differences between the sexes. Girls wear pants, and young men sport girlish long hair and wear necklaces and bracelets. The classical love song of the nineteenth century, the love-centered operettas, and the popular songs of the "June-moon" variety of the first half of this century have given way to the harsh rhythms of rock and roll of the unisex generation. And the phoniatrist sees among his patients an increasing number of young adult males who do not use the deep masculine voice that the pubertal growth of the larynx offers but continue to speak in an artificial high pitch of almost female sound. Friedrich S. Brodnitz, M.D.
Re: Your task: find a ethical-moral connection to words like "psallo"
|February 20 2012, 3:49 PM |
I've been wading through this joker's material for months. This guy is a blooming idiot.
Only a TINY remnant.
|February 20 2012, 8:01 PM |
"We know that Canaanite prophets were organized in guilds centered on the larger sanctuaries, as, for example, 'the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the Asherah four hundred,' with whom Elijah had memorable dealings on Mount Carmel (1 Kings 18). Similarly, Israelite cultic prophets were to be found in and around the sanctuaries, roving about in rowdy troops, working themselves up into frenzies by dancing and music, and uttering semi-coherent oracles which the credulous accepted as divinely inspired." (Heaton, E. W., Everyday Life in the Old Testament, p. 221, Scribners) (Also see de Vaux, p. 242)
"Among these pupils is found to much greater extent than among the teachers a certain ecstatic feature. They arouse their feelings through music and induce a frantic condition which also affects others in the same way, in which state they 'prophesy' and, throwing off their garments, fall to the ground. In later times too we find traces of such ecstatic phenomena. Thus e.g. in Zech 13:6; 1 Ki. 20:37-38, the 'wounds' on the breast or on the forehead recall the self-mutilation of the priests of Baal (1 Ki. 18:28). The deeds, suggestive of what the dervishes of our own day do, probably were phenomena quite similar to the action of the prophets of the surrounding tribes" (Int Std Bible Ency., Prophecy, p. 2462)
"'Now they leap spiritedly into the air, now they bend their knees to the ground and revolve on them like persons possessed." Now compare with the passage in 1 K 19:18 where God promises Elijah that he will spare 'those who have not bent the knew before Baal.'... This also explains Elijah's reproach in 1 K 18:21 where he accuses those who would serve both Baal and Yahweh at the same time of 'hobbling first on one leg, then on the other." (de Vaux, p. 241).
"We have evidence of ritual dances in the context of other Syrian cults. One of the Ras Shamra poems, in a passage which is unfortunately full of gaps, mention mrqdm 'dancers' apparently in connection with a sacrifice. Herodian depicts Heliogabalus at a sacrifice to his god of Emesa, 'dancing round the altars to the sound of every kind of musical instruments; with him certain women of his country performed a sprightly round, with cymbals and tambourines in their hands." (de Vaux, p. 241).
"This is how Apuleius describes the cortege of the Syrian goddess '...they began to howl all out of tune and hurl themselves hither and thither, as though they were mad. They made a thousand gestures with their feet and their heads; they would bend down their necks and spin round so that their hair flew out in a circle; they would bite their own flesh; finally, every one took his two-edged weapon and wounded his arms in divers places." (de Vaux, p. 242)
The prophets of Baal performed a noisy form of "prophesying" but they could not "bring their gods into their presence." This "prophesying" was not pretty; it involved singing, music, naked dancing and even cutting themselves. The emotional "high" proved that the god was in them.
"All these texts point, explicitly or implicitly, to the fact that the dance had a musical accompaniment. Even though the Bible makes no mention of it we must assume that the movements of the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel were made with an accompaniment on certain musical instruments... There is an obvious satirical intent in the biblical story and we could find no better illustration of a similar attitude than a rather curious bas-relief in the Museo delle Terme in Rome whichderides a ceremony of Isis. In front of a row of images of the gods, men and women are dancing with grotesque contortions; their knees are all bent their heads thrown back and their arms upraised; they are holding castanets or the double flute. An aged choirmaster and a group of spectators mark time by clapping their hands." ( de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 242).
Re: Only a TINY remnant.
|February 20 2012, 8:56 PM |
...which has nothing to do with Mt Sinai. You don't get to add in commentary at will, especially when you are attempting to twist scripture to fit your wild assertions. Exodus 32 is silent about music at Mt Sinai. You've read something into the text that isn't there; worse, you've built doctrine on it, compounding your error. Your wasting your time.
Not entirely true
|April 5 2012, 6:09 PM |
Ken, you stated above "The Church of Christ scholars do NOT understand that the Church of Christ was never part of the Disciples Denomination -- including the later secting of the Christian Church -- when they refused to be COUNTED in the 1906 census."
Truth of the matter is the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ and Independent Christian Churches were all originally part of the Stone-Campbell movement that began in 1832. While you are close to being correct some of the Church of Christ did not want to be counted in the census after 1907. The actual event that began the split was not music. It was in 1895 at the Texas State Convention in Gainesville, Tx where the Missionary Society threw a black tie party and the some of the southern churches were upset at the lack of support and funds to their churches and how the missionary society could throw extravagant parties.
There are many history books out on this subject and you are completely misinformed. I am not here to argue theology or ideologies with you, but it would help if you knew actual history if you are going to use it in your arguments.
I am not writing this to make you upset or look bad, I just want to help inform you.
Remember: in Essentials unity, in non-essentials, liberty and in all things charity!
Church HIstorian in Training
The 1832 hand shake was never "union"
|April 5 2012, 6:52 PM |
Unity existed among many groups on the wild frontier but there was never "fellowship" which means I endorse you, I assemble with you and I support you. The 1832 handshake was a few handshakes where John Smith recorded the "agreement" which would permit agreement on an intellectual level. The "contract" the few preachers with no denominational authority signed was a statement perfectly in agreement with what became Churches of Christ. The ink was not dry before the Disciples began violating it.
This arrogance by a few preachers was divisive for the masses of preachers who resented the claim--as Campbell resented-- of Stone's boasting that "the Reformers have come over to us."
Those who became The Church of Christ repudiated the agreement and by 1837 Alexander Campbell ridiculed any kind of unity based on a handshake when the Stoneites had absolutely nothing in common with the Campbellites: Stone repudiated the Atonement, and did not believe that baptism was necessary at that time. Since what was "witchcraft" at Cane Ridge gave birth to the Christian movement which bonded more with the Methodist including the denominational structure of ordaining preachers and the "shouting methodist" exercise as an ACT of worship.
It is reasonable to say that all of the so-called Stone-Campbell Movement are liars about this issue: especially the Lunenburg letters.
the lady from Lunenburg to write the editor of the Harbinger is in an article entitled "Letters to England-No. 1," which was published in the June, 1837,
You have never read the Lunenburg correspondence. To Campbell a "c"hristian was one who lived according to Christian principles. We speak of a "c"hristian nation. However, a "C"hristian is ONLY one who has obeyed the gospel.
I. With all despatch, then, I hasten to show that I have neither conceded nor surrendered any thing for which I ever contended; but that on the contrary, the opinion now expressed, whether true or false, is one that I have always avowed.
(Footnote in original reads: It is with us as old as baptism for the remission of sins,
and this is at least as old as the "Christian Baptist." Read the first two numbers of that work.)
1. Let me ask, in the first place, what could mean all that we have written upon the union of Christians on apostolic grounds,
had we taught that all Christians in the world
were already united in our own community?
2. And in the second place, why should we so often have quoted and applied to apostate Christendom what the Spirit saith to saints in
Babylon--"Come out of her, my people, that you partake not of her sins,
and that you receive not of her plagues"--
had we imagined that the Lord had no people beyond the pale of our communion!
3. But let him that yet doubts, read the following passages from the Christian Baptist, April, 1825:--
"I have no idea of seeing, nor wish to see, the sects unite in one grand army.
This would be dangerous to our liberties and laws. For this the Saviour did not pray.
It is only the disciples dispersed among them
that reason and benevolence would call out of them,
"&c. &c. This looks very like our present opinion of Christians among the sects!!!
2d ed. Bethany, p. 85.
4. Again, speaking of purity of speech in order to the union of Christians, we say,
"None of you [Christians] have ever yet attempted to show
how Christians can be united on your principles.
You have often showed how they may be divided, and how each party may hold its own,
but while you pray for the visible unity of the Disciples,
and advocate their visible disunity, we cannot understand you."
March, 1837, vol. 4.
The 1960 Census which was, I believe, the first, saw the Disciples / Christian Churches attempting to do a body count including the Churches of Christ in Nashville. The Census taker knew this was utterly false and consulted Lipscomb who just said NO to the body snatchers.
The Disciples-Christian churches already had a Denominational Movement underway and needed the body count to send them vast sums of money.
As far as the PRESENT CLAIM by the Christian Churches you have to grasp that they did not begin to hold separate denominational meetings until 1927 and were still counted as Disciples unto THEY were removed from the census as late as 1971. That was the time when Garrett etal began to "cut out" Churches of Christ where "unity" meant you AFFIRM instruments or you CONFORM and then we can have unity.
Now why would people fall for the NACC effort at "unity" and claiming that Churches of Christ were legalistic sectarians when the Christian Church did not BEGIN to SECT out of the Disciples until 1927?
When Churches of Christ denied that they had ever been "joined" even fraternally since the introduction of instruments among the Disciples which split that group. At that time the Disciples/Christian Churches issued a Centennial edition of the Declaration and Address which should prove to anyone that Churches of Christ could not be counted on.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Apr 5, 2012 7:25 PM|
Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell on UNION.
|April 6 2012, 9:14 AM |
This is the "pre fabled union" in 1831: the denial of any kind of "union" in the above Lunenburg quote was in 1837. Without passing judgment one way or another, the Reformers saw the Disciples as just another denomination, and saw Barton W. Stone bent on forming a NEW INCLUSIVE denomination. Garrison proposed to include ALL OF CHRISTENDOM. That is why the Disciples have reached a dead end.
Historians should understand the difference between Mythological History and True History.
Among the Greeks it was widely taught that rhetoricians, poets and music must not be permitted to write about true history. It was ok to lie about history when entertaining (only) but never in the schools or called assemblies (ekklesia).
And I believe that is especially true about those tasked to REwrite the history of groups always known as The Church of Christ in every period. The Catholics thought of them as universal (the one true church) but they called themselves The Church of Christ because Jesus of Nazareth "whom God made to be both Lord and Christ" purchased it and is the head of His own kingdom. That kingdom has no other task but to "use one mind and one mouth" to teach "that which is written for our learning." The Laded Burden outlaws all "spiritual anxiety created by religious ceremonialism." Paul used the Greek ARESKOS or Self-pleasure or Latin Placeo which outlaws the same thing clearly defined in the literature as "rhetoric, singing, instruments or drama." Jesus would call them hypocritic arts by pointing to Isaial 6 and Ezekiel 33.
The modern writers of Encyclopedias (smile) and text books have never read the original resources but as in ALL scholarly settings rest on the textbooks YOU must follow if YOU intend to get a passing grade. We will show yoou that Richard Hughes has led many simpletons down the path by false teaching about Alexander Campbell and the "apocalyptic tradition." The name MH in fact was to repudiate ALL millennial speculations and to refute the Disciples organization to "save all of the Jews to make it possible for Jesus to return." They fell for the Millerite (SDA) predictions: the Jews didn't want to get saved--thank you very much--and Jesus didn't return. However, it proved the radical separation of the Disciples and Reformers whose churches called themselves churches of Christ. At one time the Stone people called themselves CHRISTIANS and the Campbell disciples called themselves DISCIPLES. Of course a baptized believer is a DISCIPLE and is called a CHRISTIAN but the body bears the name of Christ. Disciples don't DO worship services: they go to BIBLE CLASS.
I have made it my way-past-retirement task to make these ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS from Clay Tablets onward available for anyone wanting to get TRUE HISTORY from the writers mouth--and not get fleeced so you can get a still-bleeding sheep skin. I don't DO dogma and don't join the ANTICHRISTS in their trinitarian worship.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Apr 6, 2012 9:16 AM|