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Dave

64.234.85.24

Dance Dance Dance

February 2 2012, 5:31 AM 

Same ole Donnie....can't stand it unless you push the negative in anything.
You mentioned the dancing and music being associated with idolatry.

Try this one on for size.
Exodus 15
19 When Pharaohs horses, chariots and horsemen[e] went into the sea, the LORD brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. 20 Then Miriam the prophet, Aarons sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing. 21 Miriam sang to them:

Sing to the LORD,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.

You are RIGHT again Donnie....God didn't command Miriam to play and dance.....did He?
happy.gif

Exodus 15
1Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the LORD:

Notice, Donnie, that verse 19 was after verse 1 (keeping it simple for you) and when Miriam began to play the instrument and dance and sing.....Moses nor God called her down, or called these actions sinful. Like they say, silence is golden.
happy.gif
Donnie, you know for sure that I am not particularly interested in dancing or singing or the playing, but just showing how you or anyone else can abuse God's Word to fit your traditions and what you want....and abusing the Word to put down others.

Notice too, Donnie, when Miriam did do wrong she was disciplined when she spoke to Aaron in a negative manner about Moses.
Numbers 12
1 Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite. 2 Has the LORD spoken only through Moses? they asked. Hasnt he also spoken through us? And the LORD heard this.

Later in the chapter Miriam was scolded by God and then stricken for seven days with leprosy.

Did God do such with Miriam in Exodus 15 when she played and sang and dance?
No.
happy.gif

 
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Brian Cade

66.230.112.44

Re: Saying that God commanded instruments is blasphemy.

February 8 2012, 12:48 PM 

Judas carried the common purse, not musical instruments (John 13:29). You need to read the Bible rather than letting your imagination run away with you, otherwise, you teach falsely.

 
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Ken Sublett

166.248.141.53

The Judas Bag

February 8 2012, 3:56 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

[linked image]


People who take a hatched to the word and talk about themselves or try to manipulate you to violate the Law Against Giving so they can build their own Babylonian Temple State (Rick used to use a pyramid) violate the masses of fact that the Word of God is to be SPOKEN and DISCUSSED: not twisted are called "hypocrites" by Jesus : Scribes and Pharisees defined as "rhetoricians, singers and instrument playrs) in Ezekiel 33.

Clergy singers and instrument players are also called Soothsayers (Rick's foundation), Sorcerers (John 18 defining the end time NOW but ANCIENT Babylon mother of harlots usibng "lusted after fruits": as speakers, singers and instrument players. They have their place in the Lake of Fire.

Thes CUNNING CRAFTSMENT are defined as witches but and demons because they MANIPULATE people's minds to abuse them into the Laded Burden.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.141.53 on Feb 8, 2012 4:08 PM


 
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Brian Cade

66.230.81.86

Re: The Judas Bag

February 9 2012, 12:20 AM 

Congratulations, you have just committed the logical fallacy of equivocation by using the same word in two different senses. Nothing in the context of the gospels indicates that the common purse held anything but money. Remember, that text without context is pretext. Your argument is invalid.

 
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Ken Sublett

166.248.128.247

Words are never defined.

February 9 2012, 3:36 PM 

There is no scholar who can DEFINE words: all words have different words. One Hebrew word is translated by 71 english words.

What the sowers of discord do not know that previous scholars who have searched the ancient texts can tell you HOW a word is used in the text.

The foundational word PSALLO invented by the Disciples/ Christian churches in about 1878 has NO musical content: none at all

It just means Pluck a string (hair) with your FINGERS but never with a PLECTRUM. That is because Psallo is connected to Apollo (Abadon) who twanged his bow string to send forth a singing arrow. Or he plucked his lyre string to send forth a LOVE ARROW. He is the SUN god honored on the 7th day, the father of musical harmony and the father of homosexuality in worship.

PLUCK has lots of things in mind but NEVER WITH A PLECTRUM means that you cannot psallo a flute, drums or piano. All of the Christian Church proof texts have older males PLUCKING + A harp to seduce a younger boy whose body hairs had been PLUCKED.

Since there is not a jot or tittle of congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment scholars note that THERE IS NO EXCEPTION to religious instruments being sourced by Lucifer (the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden) or Demigods. A Daimon is such an agent. Jubal HANDLED musical instruments but HANDLED means WITHOUT AUTHORITY or handled in a sexual sense.

YOUR TASK IS TO FIND ANY EXAMPLE OF GODLY PEOPLE DOING WHAT THE INFILTRATED AND DIVERTED CHURCHES WERE WILLING TO DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD PLANNING TO MAKE UP THE $ WITH A NEW SET OF "OWNERS."

 
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Brian Cade

66.230.112.44

Re: Words are never defined.

February 9 2012, 4:49 PM 

Again with equivocation. What's the connection between plucking a string and plucking hair? Nonsense.

 
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Brian Cade

132.79.9.16

Re: Words are never defined.

February 10 2012, 6:14 PM 

I might also point out that nowhere does the Bible say anything about Israel being out of God's favor forever because of "musical idolatry" (whatever that may be). You're making this stuff up.

 
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Ken Sublett

166.248.138.253

Psallo can mean pluck a string or pluck a hair

February 10 2012, 7:10 PM 

Preachers and scholars lie and say that the word PSALLO commands them to use music and musicians KNOWING that they plan to sow massive discord just to please their "handlers."

Psallo can means pluck a string with your FINGERS and never with a PLECTRUM. You violate the definition if you try to psallo a trumpet, drum or piano.

http://www.piney.com/Psalmos.Psallo.Melody.html

It really doesn't matter because they are NOT Disciples of Christ who commanded us to teach to observe what HE commanded to be taught. We know that is the Prophets by the Spirit OF Christ and the prophecies made more certain by Jesus who fulfilled them and inspired the Apostles: They left us their face to face MEMORY and declared that a FALSE TEACHER is one who does not "teach that which has been taught."

Believe me, there may not be a single Church of Christ left leaving us to be Disciples for ourselves.


 
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Brian Cade

216.67.46.253

Re: Psallo can mean pluck a string or pluck a hair

February 10 2012, 10:13 PM 

It does matter, especially when you dishonestly redefine words with impunity in an attempt to bolster your argument. By the way, what the word or words you attempt to redefine doesn't mean doesn't matter. All that does is obscure the issue. Stick to the point.

 
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Shane Longtin

76.113.190.69

I can scarcely believe what I'm reading.

February 12 2013, 3:03 PM 

I knew that world views such as this existed, but I would never have believed that I would find folks positing that "musical idolatry" (whatever that means) was the impetus for all of God's actions, commandments, and grace from that point on.

Isn't it obvious how ridiculous it is to say that, because music was associated with worship of an idol, it should be abstained from altogether? Does Exodus 32:7-9 say God was angry because of the music, or because of the false god they had made and worshipped?

Yes, they got out of control, and "revelry" was "indulged". Does that say that music was vilified? Or was it the lack of self-discipline, as evidenced that Moses said they were unprepared to meet their enemies? When God later instructed them to celebrate a couple of different occasions, did he say, "except don't use music, because that will be your downfall"?

Come on. I suppose we should never benefit from a fire, as that was used in both making the idol and in cooking the food -- "pyroidolatry". Or perhaps we should never again eat and drink at celebrations, lest we be guilty of "culinary idolatry". Or perhaps we shouldn't have gold jewelry, because they used that stuff to build the calf. Really?? Why is the point NOT that they had created a god of their own because they were impatient for Moses to come back? I've spent about 3 hours now scouring the piney site looking for something I was convinced I must be missing as a musician. I'm now even more convinced I wasn't missing anything.

People did bad stuff in the Bible. And the it's not even necessarily always characterized as bad at the time it happens (such as all the murdering of potential rivals that happened at kings' orders -- never characterized as sinful or righteous at the time, just stated as fact). However, there are lots of very clear references to music being used in honor of God, as well as other forms of artistic expression being valued and the best sought for things like the craftmanship of Solomon's temple.

Did God COMMAND us to use music? Probably not, though someone might make an argument for Ephesians 5:15-20 and 1 Corinthians 14:26 as pretty close to an endorsement, at least. On the other hand, if it were explicitly sinful, wouldn't it have been mentioned somewhere explicitly, rather than having to weave these huge webs of association and 50 definitions of a Hebrew term to get from the calf to the music? I can't think of another sin that can't be very easily, if not explicitly, connected to explicit scriptural instructions or warnings.

I suspect that's why there were no direct answers to calls for scripture to support the claim. There aren't any.

As a musician, I see music as a language provided to us by God for the purpose of emotional expression. A chord progression played on an instrument a certain way can express things that can't be put into words, yet everyone understands it. Why should that medium of communication not be used to express things directly to God, corporately as a body of believers coming together in unity?

 
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Ken Sublett

70.197.169.213

Re: I can scarcely believe what I'm reading.

February 12 2013, 4:08 PM 

The Church of Christ (the Rock) is defined in the wilderness as:

INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word of God.
EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" and that includes high sounding rhetoric.

The synagogue was endorsed by Jesus and the simple pattern never changed.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE commanded by Jesus was A School of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles: that is the only foundation (education) that the DISCIPLES of Christ are commanded to teach and observe.

There is no role for music to play in that SCHOOL.

The prophets and some psalms define the fall from Grace at Mount Sinai and the MUSIC was the PROOF of idolatry: giving attention to the music meaning "making the lambs dumb before the slaughter."

Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Euphrain , Ep. euphr-, fut. Att.155.12, Pi.I.7(6).3 II. Pass., make merry, enjoy oneself,
i. mkhann, [sound, lights ]in the theatre,
4. take up and bear, as a burden, moron A.Pers.547; athlon S.Tr.80; algos A.R.4.65.
2. raise by words, hence, praise, extol, E.Heracl.322, etc.; ai. log to exaggerate, D.21.71.
mkha^n-


A musical instrument is "a machine for doing hard work mostly in making war or arousing people in a religious spectacle. When

Pind. I. 6 Just as we mix the second bowl of wine when the men's symposium is flourishing, here is the second song of the Muses for Lampon's children and their athletic victories: first in Nemea, Zeus, in your honor they received the choicest of garlands,

Pind. I. 7 In which of the local glories of the past, divinely blessed Thebe, did you most delight your spirit? Was it when you raised to eminence the one seated beside Demeter of the clashing bronze cymbals, flowing-haired [5] Dionysus? Or when you received, as a snow-shower of gold in the middle of the night, the greatest of the gods, when he stood in the doorway of Amphitryon, and then went in to the wife to beget Heracles?

But since ancient grace sleeps, and mortals are forgetful of whatever does not reach the highest bloom of skillful song, joined to glorious streams of words, [20] then begin the victory procession with a sweet-singing hymn for Strepsiades;


Moses knew of three meanings of musical sounds: making war, celebrating victory or Idolatry:"It is singing that I hear."

Besides that no one has ever introduced instruments without knowing that they are going to sow discord and offend most of the people about half of whom flee from their own property





    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.169.213 on Feb 12, 2013 4:32 PM


 
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Ken Sublett

70.197.169.213

Re: Saying that God commanded instruments is blasphemy.

February 12 2013, 5:58 PM 

Rick Atchley and those who have bonded with the NACC claim that "a" spirit told them that God commanded instrumental praise and we should not be disobedient.

It is clear that tampering with the Word brings on strong delusions so that people believe a lie and be damned. What happened at Mount Sinai is defined by Christ in the prophets and Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 10

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Adding INSTRUMENTS is at the same time Jesus visiting to remove His Candlestick (7 spirits of divine knowledge) Rev 18. The next thing you hear is the SOUNDS of wind, string and percussion instruments of God driving His enemies into "hell."Isaiah 30.

Not even the simplest Disciple commanded to teach and observe what Jesus commanded to be taught could have missed Acts 7 unless God had made them blind and deaf: those who follow the blind fall into the PIT as a name for Hell.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett

70.197.161.187

J.W.McGarvey and the Restoration View of the Spirit

February 19 2013, 9:42 AM 

J. W. McGarvey, Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott and others able to read the languages and who did NOT attempt to teach a whole sermon out of one isolated passage, and who were not delusional in being lifted up with pride understood that SPIRIT is MIND and they credited God in Christ to reveal WHAT they intended as TEACHING RESOURCE for anyone who can claim to be a Christian or a DISCIPLE. Disciples of Christ do not turn tricks on route 666 trying to seduce people into their butterfly trap.

http://www.piney.com/HsMcGarvey.html

FIRST: The apostles had heard Jesus testify; but he had not told them all the truth; nor could they, with certainty, remember all that he had said.

It was left for the Spirit to bring to memory all that Jesus had spoken, and to lead them into all the truth.

Upon the Spirit, then, they depended for all their knowledge of the will of God. If they wished to know what constitutes one a child of God, they learned it from the testimony of the Spirit. They had no other way to learn it, and no other way was needed, for this was infallible.

SECOND: What they learned thus, they spoke with equal infallibility to the world. "God has revealed these things to us through HIS Spirit," says Paul; "which things we also speak; not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but in words which the Holy Spirit teaches."

THIRD: Others, then, heard the testimony of the Spirit through the lips of those inspired men, and in this they heard the very words of the Spirit.

FOURTH: These words, again, were written down, so that those who had not the opportunity of hearing the living voice of the apostles might have the same words in writing, and suffer no disadvantage, as compared with those who first heard them.

.....We stand in the position of this last class.

.....We have NO testimony of the Spirit by inspiration of our own minds,
.....neither have we the living voice of inspired men to inform us;

.....but we have, what is just equal to this in value,
.....the written depositions of the Spirit of God;
.....and these testify, in unmistakable terms, what a man must do to be a child of God.


Note: Jesus wrote HIS Last Will and Testament BEFORE He Died. After His Glorification HE did not need "another" mediator but spoke to the Apostles: He had to let Paul SEE Him and HEAR His voice to qualify Him as being guided by the Spirit as an Apostle. His testators were the Apostles and NO Disciple has the authority or audacity to CHANGE a will after it has been probated. This speaks in human terms so that we can repudiate anyone who would go beyond changing their mother's will and change God's Will. That will is in effect for ever and ever. A Christian or Disciple will not CAN NOT even want to be "guided beyond the sacred pages." Peter left that as the MARK for booting out false teachers.

The universal view is that if even a mortal wants to express their will to be delivered to another place they WILL put it on paper and SEAL IT. A herald (kerusso or presbyter) who opened the SEAL or changed or charged for his services on the RECEIVING end would be charged, convicted and punished. Ancient Law REFUSED to let a poet or philosopher be a HERALD because they--by definition--was considered a liar and wanted to change the message to what it SHOULD be if he was in charge.

Lest some one should doubt whether it is scriptural to represent the statements of the Scripturesas the testimony of the Spirit , listen to a few examples of Scripture usage.

Nehemiah, in the prayer of the Levites, uses this language in reference to God's dealings with the children of Israel: "Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifedst against them by thy Spirit in thy prophets."

Peter says the old prophets searched "what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands. Neh 9:30


1Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time
.....the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
.....when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant,
.....and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:
.....worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Re 19:10

If this is not the case then the sacrifice of Jesus was USELESS and it says that God in Christ was INCOMPETENT to reveal His MIND in documents written by a FEW GOOD MEN who spoke by the same Spirit OF Christ. He was the ROCK in the wilderness and in every case God communicated to humans through the INSTRUMENTAL MEANS of another person who could PROVE their direct commission. A written testimony or probated WILL is the only way to weed out people who "stand in the holy place and claim to be God" by speaking THEIR own silly praise songs


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.161.187 on Feb 19, 2013 10:10 AM


 
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Ken Sublett

70.210.19.141

Re: The Mark of the Beast

June 25 2013, 8:50 AM 

You remember that Jesus said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the world. The Scribes and Pharisees Jesus called hypocrites meaning self-speakers, singers and instrument players (Ezekiel 33) are called a generation of VIPERS who will be baptized with WIND (spirit) and fire to SEPARATE the trash from the wheat.

The MUSES or musical worship teams which were suddenly unleased among churches of Christ are John's CODE word LOCUSTS. Even common people who had been educated in the theaters by plays would have understood the story of how the Muses had turned the sleepy-minded males into Locusts. In other accounts the Muses offended the mother goddess and were locked up in the smoky pit to be unleashed. Whether true or not John wants us to know that when you hear the SOUNDS-LIKE noises it is time for JUDGMENT and a sign for the godly people to go PREACH the gospel to all nations.

Here is just a few MARKS of the Muses in any church with a performance worship leader (hired song-leader), worship team or instruments from a huge body of researched data about the CODE word LOCUSTS.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett

70.210.20.143

More SPEAKING the WORD for REMEMBRANCE

July 8 2013, 3:41 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett

70.210.5.63

Re: The Mark of the Beast

July 9 2013, 1:54 PM 

The liberty to BESTOW authority on women always flows from men who ASSUME or PRESUME authority that Jesus died to remove from both; THAT is how Paul taught how we can be Gender Inclusive (even the non-clergy men). Preachers don't get to purchase the fact that the Spirit OF Christ defined the assembly both INCLUSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY. That was practiced by the Church OF Christ (the Rock) from the wilderness onward.

We have noted in our GENDER research that the Greeks and Scripture says that those who SELL their own words (outlawed in Isaiah 58) or seek their own pleasure are called PROSTITUTES. You can prostitute all of your body talents.

[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett

70.210.5.63

Re: The Mark of the Beast

July 10 2013, 11:58 AM 

My preacher says that HE is an AUTHORITATIVE TEACHER (replacing Jesus) and that a holy spirit person is leading him to be the authority for his changed culture.

Adjective
Able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable: "clear, authoritative information".
(of a text) Considered to be the best of its kind and unlikely to be improved upon.

Synonyms
imperious - magisterial - peremptory - imperative


Jesus said that to some it is not given to understand parables hidden in plain view. If you cannot get over the fact that the Spirit OF God is not another people that would accuse Him of being OUT of His Mind and that would be blasphemy.

The THOUGH of God the Father is sent forth by His BREATH (never another person) and that BREATH is articulated by the SON. That is why classical trinitarians comprehended that the SON of God is the WORD of God which went forth from God. While my though and my breath have a separate existence, they are NOT TWINS.

Spirit is God's BREATH or the MIND or Mental Disposition of God being sent forth to be His power or authority. Spirit is invisible LIKE the wind until it is ARTICULATED by lips meaning "double-edged swords."

God is God is God is God
Spirit is God's BREATH expelled
The SON of God is His WORD in human form. The Son is NOT the FATHER nor the BREATH. However, God ALWAYS has his MIND and BREATH and articulated WORDS and they were therefore God.

Jesus of Nazareth was of the SEED of Abrhaham after the flesh but He was MADE TO BE both LORD and CHRIST by the Power of God. Trinity is God's conceiving, God breathing and God articulating. If he wants an ASS to speak then the ASS is not part of a FAMILY OF GODS.

There is ONE GOD ONLY and "there is no one else beside Him." That is why the radical NEO-trinity of LU saying that God, His Breath and His Word are THREE CENTERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS each with their own abilities and talents but they are UNITED in thought is the worst kind of blasphemy: if blasphemy doesn't get you then CORRUPTING the Word or SELLING your own additions or replacements is defined as PROSTITUTION: that will surely get you hurt.

[linked image]

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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