The following is offered for consideration. :

The word man is derived from the ancient Sanskrit word for mind. This word is "Manas." As with so many words, 'Manas' become changed over time. The 'as' was dropped, leaving 'man.'

Sincere people, still operating from lower mind, came to identify "man...manas...mind" with the animal form mind uses to express itself. The brain being part of the objective form. Reptiles have brians, but do not have mind.

"Man," in its original meaning, referred to Mind, the human soul, our Christ within, our hope of glory (Col. 1:27).

It is mind then, which Genesis 3:22 tells us is going to become as one of them, a God to know both good AND evil Gods, as Genesis 3;22 and Philippians 2:6 says. This scripture marks the beginning of an evolutionary process that will culminate in animal instinct having become God mind, as Philippians 2:6 confirms.

Mind is subjective, not objective.

Surgeons can operate on the Brain, but not the mind.

Sincere people of Old, running these scriptures through the filter of lower mind and, being in their worship stage of evolution, quite naturally made the subjective, objective, created an object of worship, believing, quite to the contrary of their Bibles, that this object of veneration is "out there."

The problem these very sincere people are encountering (and with whom they are today clashing...mentally of course) is that, en masse, people are passing out of their worship stage and into their Participation stage of realization . In Bible terminology, they are exiting their River Jordan Baptism and entering their Baptism by Fire.

An old Eastern teaching, using symbol and allegory, says, speaking of that period of exiting the water and entering the fire is (paraphrasing) "When Fie and Water meet, steam results." This steam is touched upon in l Corinthians by the words, "For now, we see through a glass darkly, etc." The steam, the confusion, is graduall dispersed by the Fire analogous to fog being "burned away" by the sun.

Those still in their watery, emotional baptism (or even previous to that) see this "exiting the water and entering the Fire as a "falling away from God. It indicates, in reality, the opposite.

Religion, stuck in its smug, arrogant belief that it is special and that contains everything necessary for, as they call it, "salvation," has not kept abreast of the evolving quality of intellect.

Once again. Motion is a relative conceot. By standing stiil, they move away from us.

where your coming from Striver. Here's how I see this passage of scripture:

Phillipians 2

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Verses 1&2 Speaking of the love and fellowship we have being united in one spirit, the Spirit of God..we should all be united in purpose
Verse 3&4 There is no place for pride (which comes from the fleshly or 'animal' mind) if we are united with the mind of God, and again he speaks of the great love we should have for each other and care for the concerns of others
Verses 5&6 Allow (Let) the mind of God dominion over your fleshly mind because if you do, you share and are part of God..one with God..of the same purpose
Verses 7&8 Let this complete humility of mind extend to your body and all you do in submission to God's will
Verses 9-11 God exalts those who humble themselves as did Jesus. He is the example for how we should be...the perfect way.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'..................my faith is not in man but him who called me up out of darkness.'

lee

heart or soul, the two being referred to as the same thing, residing within the inward man. Which is not the same as the fleshly or conscious mind. But the Lord desires to be able to purify even the fleshly mind once he does enter into our spirits. And once the veil is rent within making both one In Him once again, as it most likely was in the beginning before man came into bondage to sin within, will then begin to change the fleshly mind as well, by beginning to destroy the old once the New does rule and reign from within. Rm. 6:6 at the end of that verse telling us this be the plan. Right?

This also means that one hs prepared for tis to begin too as a result of having happen by the Lord what Mt. 23:26 clues us into what must be done first before that fleshly mind can begin to be changed.

Whereas before this cleansing happens, it will not happen until those scriptures in Romans 6 have been established in that ones life. Why? Because God said so in Mt 23:26 that is why.

But what happens once this has taken place, that one filled with the Spirit, then God begins to rule and reign then as long as flesh is submitted to the spirit that is.

He being the one responsible for our being considered blameless mainly written in 1st Thess. 5:23. Their not sleeping but instead being of the day then according to 1st Thess. 5:6-9.



And behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. (Rev. 22:12-13)
Luv Sandy

There is nothing in your post which disagrees with, or refutes, esoteric teaching. It's all a matter of one being an Esotericist and interpreting scripture subjectively, therefore grasping what 'servant means; or if one is an Exotericist and interprets scripture Objectively.

The stated goal of Exotericiasm is to live a good life, die sinless, or forgiven, go to heaven and stare for eternity. at whatever God turns out to be.

The stated goal of Esotericism is for humanity to become of one mind...Christ mind. Why? So we can serve the planet, be stewards of it.

As more and more of humanity attains Christ mind, we create a magnetic Cemter which Magnetises both the top and bottom, the higher and lower triads together sreating the John 12:20 scripture. But first, we have to achieve John 12:20 withing the solar system called a human being. This is what the not at all new, New Teastament is an allegory for.

Humanity's function is, according to esoteric belief, to become the woman in Matthew 13:33.BTW, the higher triand consists of Spiritual Will, Love and Mind. The lower triad of human will, mind and body. The woman in Matthew 13:33 and Christ mind are symonymous.

Just pointing out differences in Exoteric and Esoteric interpretation. Exotericism...worship

Esotericism...no worship at all...serving throught participation.

Exotericism...God is a Being in space.

Esotericism... Space is God. We are condensations of space, therefore of God...conclusion? We are gods, just like your Bible says. Just a few differences in the two approaaches.

You may seperate into exoterism and esoterism but I actually include both in my belief, for instance I believe humanity should become of one mind and that we should be good stewards of our planet. We should be good stewards in everything we think, feel touch and believe. Also yes..space is God..all creation including us is part of God as all that exists came from God and keeps coming from God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'..................my faith is not in man but him who called me up out of darkness.'

lee

This one mind we all have to become is Christ mind, Earth's catalyst that brings about the at-one-ment of the higher trinity of Spiritual Will, Love and mind (the leaven in Matthew 13:33) and the lower, human trinity of human will, love and mind.

I'm sure I'm not getting this precisely correct, but the Bible has Christ saying, "I, if I be lifted-up, will draw all men to me." Am I correct in thinking that orthodox Christians believe this makes reference to the man, the individual, Christ? If I am correct, this is another instance pointing out the difference between Exotericism and Esotericism.

We believe this scripture refers NOT to the person called Christ, but to a quality of mind (Christ mind) that sees in wholes, is incapable to think in terms of separation, of you and I, of us and them.

Christ mind sees only endless Space at differing frequencies, Words, Gods, (the Logoi of the Orient). Christ mind sees only Frequencies of Space which magnetize to themselves the frequency of matter, the material with which they build a body of manifestation; matter being "lifted-up" gradually to conform to the frequency ot its Primary, the Word, the Logos, the God Frequency. Never forget, we are made of these two Frequencies...God and Satan. We are these two Frequencies that got up and walked. We, therefore are micro-universes with a guiding mind.

We are, just as Psalms 82.6 and John 10:34 says...gods.

We are what creates evil in the Isaiah 45:7 scripture.

We created evil, now it is up to us, not some convenient safety valve in a far-away Heaven that will do it for us, but only if we are obedient little children and suck-up to a vain Caligula/Nero sufficiently.

The Divine Child of this Positive-Negative (receptive), Father-Mother marriage is Mind. In the Orient, it is called "Fire by Friction. "Fire" is a symbol for Mind. (See Hebrews 12:29), At one point in history it was called the "Marriage in the Heavens." In the Bible, in Genesis, it is called the "Spirit of God moving upon the face of the deep. Modern translations use "the waters."

The goal of this mind is to become, using Christian parlance, "Christed." All of the world scriptures (and I know orthodox Christians become incensed at hearing or reading this but truth is truth if it comes from a grub worm) have identical meaning. The Bible is anything but special! This is important only because it has led orthodox Christianity to believe it is unique as opposed to what it really is, an exoteric step leading to the next step, the Esoteric. By feeling unique, special, superior, thay have isolated themselves from the continuity of divine revelation and separated themselves from the evolutionary flow. Separation is the polar opposite of Christ mind. They are, therefore, without realizing it, anti-Christs.

The Bible is a melange of scriptures of other religions put together in such a manner as to construct a history for the Hebrews (the Old Testament) and a gruesome tale of a psychotic Caligula-God who needed the gory death of his son to placate his wounded vanity (the New Testament).By interpreting the Bible as they do, they have eliminated the catalyst between the first (the old) testament and the third testament. (if that is what it will be called).

What is this identical message all world scriptures? Using different words, symbols, allegories (parables), all world scriptures depict, as I have repeated several times (by now I'm sure ad nauseum), the appearence of Mind in animal man and the evolution of the quality of this mind, the goal of which is to become at-one with the Purpose of this planet becoming Christed. "Christ" is the word used in the Occident. In the Orient, for thousands of years B.C. this mind quality we are told in Phil. 2:5-6 to attain is called the "Clear, Cold Light Of Right Reason."

The oldest, and by far the most accurate, of all methods is the "Labors of Hercules... originally called Heracles.

The problem is one cannot become a true esoterist without also being first a true exoterist.

And many that believe they are the esoterist are attempting to be just that first, without becoming the true exoterist first. This happening very often early on just after beginning to become the exoterist, Their being taken in by the strange woman instead, written about in Provrbs chapter 7 that lies in wait for them revealed in that chapter. Rather than going the way of godly wisdom and understanding they should have to begin with.

And behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. (Rev. 22:12-13)
Luv Sandy

We agree. That which comes quickly is us...one we have Christ mind.

An Exotericist is a unit of mind what has not undergone its Transfiguration.

An Esotericist is one who has.

All of us, without exception, even the Christ himself, had to pass through their exoteric period which prepares them to become Esotericists. All stages in minds evolution prepares it for it's next. The time will arrive when it will be time for Esotericists to climb to their next highest rung on Jacob's Ladder.

At that time we will begin to see there's more than our present spiritual frame of reference. We will, like the twelve year old Jesus symbology, be moved in our temple (our mind), to say goodbye to our status-quo system of belief and take the next step up in quality of understanding.

I can assure you that no Esotericist believes he or she has completed their journey, or is even close to it. There is no end. It's like you are climbing a mountain believing that when we reach the summit will will have succeeded. What we find at the mountain's peak is that it reveal countless other, even higher and more difficult mountains we will have to ascend.. And just when we have climbed them all, Super Nova happens and we are back to being space...our Source.

We live and move and have our being in an infinity of Astro-Chemical combinations. Modern science calls it the intrinsically dynamic universe. The Old Hindu's called it the cosmic dance of Shiva. How they knew this without the giant telescopes of today, and the Hubble, no one knows. But know it they did.

It is a foolish waste of time for the puny mind of man to devote any time as to the origin of it all. Interesting? Oh yes! Solve able...No! Once again. There is no end. We are space condensed. Space is electricity. How does one kill electricity? One doesn't.

I've been called much 'worse'.

S:This one mind we all have to become is Christ mind, Earth's catalyst that brings about the at-one-ment of the higher trinity of Spiritual Will, Love and mind (the leaven in Matthew 13:33) and the lower, human trinity of human will, love and mind.

M:Ephesians 4
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

O.K. I quoted a long stretch of scripture. We are both reading the same scriptures, Striver. There is a unity in the Spirit or the mind of Christ that all Bible believing Christians (to my knowldege) and apparently Esoterists believe exists..not just believe but we also experience it. I've noticed in the past that some of the things you say do not exist in Christianity do in fact exist in my experience. I don't think you can so neatly seperate what you call 'exoterists' and 'esoterists'. Also there is so much variety of belief and experience in Christianity that I think the term 'orthodox Christianity' is not well defined at all. Many different groups think their own version is the orthodox one. I do not have affiliation with any one organized group myself because I think they have all gone astray in some way and add a lot of their own 'tradition' which Jesus warns us against to their faith. So I'm striving for a simple, living faith...yes a way of life that reflects Christ's teachings. For any serious Christian regardless of affiliation or not his/her goal is to emulate Christ..Jesus the annointed one


S:I'm sure I'm not getting this precisely correct, but the Bible has Christ saying, "I, if I be lifted-up, will draw all men to me." Am I correct in thinking that orthodox Christians believe this makes reference to the man, the individual, Christ? If I am correct, this is another instance pointing out the difference between Exotericism and Esotericism.

M:What is to be lifted up, in my view is not just his person but his life, his teachings. He is the way. In that sense, his teachings are also the way. Also Christ is not only an individual as in Jesus but also those who follow after him for 'we are all one in Christ'. This is the 'unity of the spirit' mentioned before. Christ is 'the annointing' which is spirit and which I also see as synonomous with the Holy Spirit.

S:We believe this scripture refers NOT to the person called Christ, but to a quality of mind (Christ mind) that sees in wholes, is incapable to think in terms of separation, of you and I, of us and them.

M:So you see, Striver, I see it both ways, as the person Jesus Christ, son of God who embodied the fullness of God or as you would say 'Christ mind' on earth. He said he only spoke what the Father gave him to speak..so he truly did empty himself and reflect God's thoughts on earth. My words are also inadequate. I think I'm out of words for right now, friend.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'..................my faith is not in man but him who called me up out of darkness.'

lee

There are two kinds of people in this world.
-- Those who divide the world into two kinds of people
And...
-- Those who don't.

Labels are sometimes useful in the definition of differences.
However, those differences must be clearly defined...
And, the definitions must then be agreed upon.

In this case...
Labeling Christianity as an "Exoteric" philosophy...
Is about as informative and accurate as...
-- Labeling a can of Beef Stew... "Peas".

Still...
I would have to agree with Striver on one point, Jackie...
-- If you can find "God" in a rock...?
Then...
-- You ARE an "Esotericist".

-PRev1-

---

Congratulations
President Barrack Hussein Obama
-- God's Will Has Been Done --

I have to disagree that Christianity is the same as all of the other old religions. Sure, there are many similarities but to conclude same-ness from the similarities themselves, alone ........ is over-simplification.

I think it's helpful to look at religion today for comparison, and assume that it would probably have been very similar 2000 years ago ....

Is Christian Science basically the same as Pentecostalism?

Are Mormon and Catholic the same?

No, these religions have entirely different philosophies and focus ....... and yet, they hold to the same essential core of belief that there is a God ..... that Jesus Christ existed ....... that there is a heaven or heavens ..... that God is good and cares about people ........ that prayers are heard and answered ....... that God expects certain things from people .....and so on.

Refusing to note the distinct differences between different versions of God belief is kind of like spreading a mix of peanut butter, jelly, butter, salmon, tuna -and anything else spreadable- with a knife, onto some pieces of bread and then clamping them together and declaring that ALL sandwiches are pretty much the same because they involve two clamped pieces of bread with something spread between them with a table knife!~ It renders the definition of "sandwich" into something that virtually means nothing.

That's how I view your explanation of Eastern Himalayan philosophy too .... Striver. While you are right, your emphasis or "point" seems to go nowhere in particular.

Obviously YOU see something of significance in what you "preach" but I don't think you're getting your particular vision or understanding across effectively to anyone else. It's like, 'okay, fine, I agree with the gist of your claims but .... ahem ..... so what? Which PART is it that you're talking about which needs attention from MY end?

Jesus quoted a passage from the Psalms which indicates that people are gods. Did he really believe that himself? Yes, I reckon he did. Ironically, so did the Roman masters of his day! Can we conclude from that then, that Christianity was simply a different version of Roman philosophy, religion and superstition? Well, if it WAS ...... then what was the point of starting Christianity?

To me, it seems important to deal with people on the basis of where they are in their own belief and philosophical disposition and use what THEY believe ...... to further a greater and more tolerant attitude toward others.

Attitude is the underlying foundation which determines behavior: not belief .... but attitude.

I think that IF we can somehow persuade Christians to examine their own attitude, based on what is written in their OWN scriptures, they might come to see that a good attitude is really what's important.

Does Himalayan Philosophy focus on BELIEF ........ or does it focus on attitude? Does Christianity focus on BELIEF ....... or does it focus on attitude? Which is most important in either one? From that point on, it might be possible to see the similarities between the two.

-Vince

I agree that a good attitude is important. Yes and I'd go a little further than that (and maybe you meant this, I don't know); What's important is that we love one another. That does involve having a good or positive attitude and being tolerant of differences. This is the heart of Jesus' commandments.
Love God.
Love each other.
Later in the scriptures we learn the two depend on each other. We can't truly love God if we do not love our brother..we all being part of God, coming from God in the beginning and also uniting with God again. We're all one really. We just need to see it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'..................my faith is not in man but him who called me up out of darkness.'

lee

I don't buy the concept of loving everyone. That word "agape" has been seriously misrepresented by modern Christians as "love the sinner; hate the sin" ....... to present a totally contradictory and conflicting conundrum for believers to practice. How do you possibly "love" someone who is -say- a sexual predator who captures and keeps sex slaves? In honesty, no one LOVES such a person. My goodness, I hear Christians talk about KILLING such people! So that idea is simply nonsensical.

What that word "agape" REALLY meant was to abide to or adhere to a common, collective, understood protocol of service. Ie ... if one of these dogs is taken to emergency with bullet holes in him .... he is to be treated without prejudice or consideration of his person. The first priority is to get him recovered ....... so that he CAN stand trial .......... and then be executed if found guilty of murder. Everything decent and in order; each duty in its own place without allowing prejudice to interfere.

I believe the word "agape" was mistranslated into the English word "love". The true translation of love would be for the word "phileo" ...... since this DID represent brotherly love.

Agape was a dedication to service. So like ...... in the job I held, I had to clean a lot of toilets. I had to take off a lot of toilets and deal with the mess underneath. I had to -sometimes- pull out subfloors that were literally steeped with sewage and get rid of it all and then clean up and build a new floor and restore it back to pristine condition. I could say that I "loved my job" in the sense of agape ........ but NOT in the sense of phileo!~

It's the attitude one takes which determines the joy and peace one is able to experience.

When Jesus said "love your enemies" he was talking agape. He was NOT saying that his followers had to FEEL any sort of affection for their troublesome brethren but rather, to adopt an attitude of tolerance, respect and wisdom. (Same with Paul's teaching).

Now ......... AGAPE is good common sense. It helps to preserve and protect people. By NOT letting emotions rule one's behavior, a LOT of conflict and revenge is avoided. Look carefully in the teachings of the New Testament and I think you'll see this undercurrent of teaching. "As much as lies in you, live peaceably with ALL men." 'Treat your enemies with respect.' "Let every man be swift to hear ........... slow to speak ........ slow to wrath."

Notice, there are no commands to AVOID wrath completely but there ARE instructions on how to deal with it. Deal with it according to agape.

-Vince

disagree with you on this Vince. When I love my enemies, often that means I will refrain from doing harm to them after they have harmed me, not that I will embrace and kiss them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'..................my faith is not in man but him who called me up out of darkness.'

lee

We're all one really. We just need to see it.

No, we are not all one. Not do all men belong to the same god either according to scripture.

Only those that walk in what Jesus said in John 17:21-26. Meaning those that are one with Jesus Father Marge.

The rest have another father according to what Jesus said in John 8:42-47.

Man was made in the likeness and image of God in the beginning, their being one with Father. Until they rebelled against God and partook of the Tree they were specifically told not to partake of. Yet doing it anyway, simply because of it looking good to them. Some continuing to do the same thing today. That determining who their spiritual father is according to what is written in John 8:42-51. Concerning the death written about there in verse 51 has to be the second death also told about in Rev. 20:14-15. As our bodies will return to the dust, which is why it also says we will receive a new one according to the word spoken from the Lord in Gen. 3:19. Not only the first Adam either, but all of us that are reproduced after Him thereafter as a result of being born in sin too, this will apply to. And this be true as I see it anyway, because once God speaks something, it is law then. Until He says otherwise. Which is how we are also born again, entering into the kingdom Jesus Christ brought for us to enter into via the cross too. What that kingdom is, being revealed in Rm. 14:17.

So not all men serve the same God after all, according to those scriptures. Whether some would like to think so Marge or not. Nor is man born in the image of God anymore either according to what is written here in Rm. 8:29, according to that scripture. Do a study on the phrase image. We are to be changed to be in the likeness of Christ according to what it says in John 2:6. Meaning both was lost when sin began within man. Jesus Christ being the only way for this to be restored at all. And unless we are born again, and enter into the kingdom of God also, Jesus told Nicodemus about in John chapter 3 can this image and likeness even begin to be restored unto men Marge. Many following their own way believing this will happen, when no it will not. At least according to scripture it will not. We quote scripture so often, not having a clue as to very often understanding what it is saying after all. And very often the ones we do not like, we ignore as well, in order to do the same thing that Adam and Eve did in the beginning themselves. continuing to partake of the wrong tree rather than the right one to this day. Lieing to ourselves that surely we shall not die just as the first two did also. Thus doing despite, and spitting on the very blood soaked cross just as many did on that day that jesus did die on it. Often because of having listened to the teachings that have come forth from the false apostles, prophets and teachers that have brought forth lies instead of the truth. Which we were warned about over and over again not to do so in scripture. thus either being deceived such as Eve was apparently, or just plain doing the same thing that Adam did and blatantly doing what we knew not to do in the first place. Because of now following flesh in place of the Spirit. Thus few finding the way after all, just as jesus said in Mt. 7:14

And behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. (Rev. 22:12-13)
Luv Sandy

I agree we are all one.

I, along with Colossians 1:27 believe that our hope of glory is our Christ within...not Jesus.

We are not to become one with Jesus. We are to become at-one with our god within. The mistake Christianity makes in interpreting John 14:20 is assuming the scripture refers to Jesus. I does not. It refers to Christ mind. The Jeus of the Bible is a myth; a symbol for human mind at its highest quality, realizing the necessity for ots Transfiguration. Unless y'all come up with a new Bible in which references to our being gods have been deleted or changed to suit ecclesiastical purpose, you sooner of later are going to have to stop avoiding the "Ye are gods" scripture, and deal with it. It is this god with which animal man, including the brain, is in process of becoming one.

I agree we are all one.

I, along with Colossians 1:27 believe that our hope of glory is our Christ within...not Jesus.

We are not to become one with Jesus. We are to become at-one with our god within. The mistake Christianity makes in interpreting John 14:20 is assuming the scripture refers to Jesus. I does not. It refers to Christ mind. The Jeus of the Bible is a myth; a symbol for human mind at its highest quality, realizing the necessity for ots Transfiguration. Unless y'all come up with a new Bible in which references to our being gods have been deleted or changed to suit ecclesiastical purpose, you sooner of later are going to have to stop avoiding the "Ye are gods" scripture, and deal with it. It is this god with which animal man, including the brain, is in process of becoming one.

OOPS! Sorry about the repeat.

You err in what your "seeing" Re: Jesus Christ, according to what is written in Mt. 16:16.

Also proving what I am saying written in 1st John 4:1-4.


Again in 2 John 9.
which also seems to line up with what is written in Rm. 8:10-11.

As well as again in the account given in Rev. 1:10-18, which appears to agree entirely with what it also says in Is. 9:6 if you can see (understand) what that is saying concerning Jesus being God.

And if one has received the seed of Christ in them according to Mt. chapter 13, and it has remained to come forth fully or birthed as 1st Tim. 2:15 states should take place within all the bride or elect Christ dwells within these. According to those scriptures I gave you in the above.

STriver, you are very sadly confused as to what is truth and what isn't.

Therefore IMHO your proclamation of believing you are esoteric, which I assume to mean someone that has much spiritual understanding given to them via the Lord according to 1st Cor. 2:14, you my friend are mistaken. Meaning you have missed the boat totally. By boat, I mean the spiritual one today that exists which is the Ark, the Ark of the Covenant that was cut by our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ for us thru the cross. But you have to believe in that first before you can even get on the boat to begin with. Seeing Him as such first. Which obviously so far you have not even had this revelation yet. Let alone being able to receive any additional revelation from the true God that is.

And I suspect your in this condition because of believing you really are God after all, and have lifted yourself up to be just that because of the desire in your heart. And therefore have to make accusation toward others they are ignoring those scriptures, when they are not. But have actually determined what they do mean after all instead. But doubtful that first revelation will take place because of that desire at this point anyway.

Because first things first! Meaning you need to find out just who Jesus Christ is and was, to even understand then what I might tell you concerning what I found when I did study your favorite scripture about man being a god after all. So keep dreaming and accusing, thinking I have not studied that issue at all as well. And actually believe I have ignored it because I do not agree with you concerning what your understanding of that is either. Which I do not agree. Which I believe I tried to tell you this before. But oh well. Men do what they have to do to convince themselves of what they want to believe. Your constantly telling me I deny the scriptures are there, when indeed I have not. Certainly they are. But I do deny that all men are Christ now, when even all men do not have Christ within them, let alone being Him. But yes, I do not deny God called all men god at all.

Those that do have Jesus Christ within just as John said in 1st John 4:1-4 as a result of His also coming and hanging on that cross, are able to become Christ like as He brings Himself forth within them certainly according to 1st John 2:6. But are still not Jesus Christ, who is the Christ either. Just as all men are gods, but not all are God either, your not rightly dividing concerning this issue. Along with many others like you, that now think they are God, rather than gods. Or Jesus "the Christ" rather than being like Christ. So you see I am not denying it says that. It just doesn't mean quite what you believe it does. Your seeing it in a totally unbalanced way to lift self up rather than Jesus Christ instead.

Meaning Striver, as far as I am concerned, you need to take your gospel you have come up with and get rid of it down some toilet, flushing it down once and for all, and start over right instead, just to put it bluntly. Which is why I generally do not discuss issues with you posting first usually, until you do me. And even then drop it eventually, knowing you have a very difficult time doing so, because of what drives you within. But if you ever do wake up, start with the scriptures that tell us the devil is a god too. OK? Then consider that God calls many things god. But that does not mean anyone is Father God either. Just as Christ within doesn't mean we are "the Christ" either. If you can see what I am saying. Actually doubtful you can. But whether you can or not, does not mean what I have concluded is not true. In fact, scripture says otherwise once you do study the subject of gods. Realizing certainly the devil is a god too, yet not God, because of being called a god as well. Just as we are called gods too.
In fact I believe Sarah referred to Abraham as god also. Did that mean she saw Abraham as God???? No way. Nor do I see my husband as such either. But I do see him as a god, just as I see myself as one too. I just am not "seeing" the same thing you are is all.

And there you have what I have concluded about your favorite scripture. If you can see my conclusion that is. Meaning are you as much of a seer as you think you are after all???? My opinion is no. But that is just my opinion of course being a god just as you are. Just as your opinion of me and what I see is just an opinion made by a god too. Which means we differ in our conclusion of what being a god means after all.

And behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. (Rev. 22:12-13)
Luv Sandy

but we fell. We were pure electricity which "fell" into the frequency called matter; the Prodigal Son going into the far country. From its densest, most gross vibration matter, the Cosmic Prodigal Son, headed back through its involutionary, followed by its evolutionary path back to the Father's Home...Pure, unblemished (to use an Einstein word) positive Electricity.

Lucifer, to make room for Jehovah, was originally known as "the dawn of creation." Lucifer was called Satan by ignorant theologians who objectified every thing (still do) didn't know that since the "Dawn of Creation" involved the appearence of suns...light...the polar opposite of pure darkness, it was looked upon as the opposite pole of darkness. These theologians turned Lucifer into a Being...the fall guy.

The word Jehovah, each letter originally a symbol for the seven frequencies that make up our solar system, was also turned by these dumb theologians into a God.

Why do I make so much reference to Eastern teaching? Mainly to show that The scriptures of East and West, while going about it differently, say the same thing and is so doing hopefully eliminate the barriers that prevent East and West being on the same page; a step closer to humanity doing its job of becoming the woman in Matthew 13:33.

If sufficiently interested in why I turned East, read the Tao of Physics. You will see, just as modern science has come to see, and I came to see, that the Esoteric...NOT THE EXOTERIC... East has been correct all along.

Einstein said words to the effect that a future world religion will be a cosmic religion and will greatly resemble Buddhism. If it is true that the truth will make you free, read the book. It is not a Satanic Eastern tool of the Devil. It does make you think, even God forbid, brand new (to us) thoughts. It's put together by a WASP...those Archie Bunker referred-to as "Regular Americans." It6 is hard, demonstrable science.

all men serve the same God. I do believe that only very few do serve God at this present time (including those who claim the loudest to be serving Him). However, this does not mean that all will not be gathered back together at some point.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'..................my faith is not in man but him who called me up out of darkness.'

lee

Studying electronics, I had to take a couple of courses that I pretty much hated. One was nuclear physics and the other was Calculus. I never got much better at understanding either of them but I HAVE gotten to a place where I understand the importance of them .... despite my limited grasp.

What I remember most about Calculus was this duality concept of differentiation and integration. Over time I came to see that -for sure- these are two vital operations -even though, seemingly opposite- that are necessary for accurate prediction of a trend ....... and also for altering the course of a trend.

In differentiation, one takes a small chunk of a trend curve and performs calculation and analysis on the very small chunk ....... to see what it's doing.

By performing a change in that small chunk and reinserting it back into the curve, (integration) .... the small chunk changes the "destiny" of the large curve from the point at which the small chunk was inserted. The change is only small and nearly imperceptible but over a course of time, a NEW result is realized in that curve that was "predicted" in the small change made in the small chunk that was inserted.

An example of applied Calculus would be where a space vehicle is sent to the moon. The simple logic would seem to be ......... aim at the moon like putting gun sites on it and then shoot ....... but that doesn't work at all. A space vehicle firstly, needs to overcome gravity and in order to do that, it must be slung around the earth at a velocity where the centrifugal force exceeds gravity ..... and then the vehicle "lifts away" from the earth and into space. Even there, a complex calculation of gravitational forces between the earth and moon is necessary in order to project the right and accurate trajectory ....... or the moon will be missed completely. This is where applied Calculus comes into place ...... and actually works. Very tiny correctional thrusts are applied to the vehicle which will result in very large changes of flight path, thousands of miles later.

Ok so ........ how does Calculus play into religion ...... say, specifically the Christian religion?

Well, we see a big emphasis in the NTestament -both in Jesus teachings and in Paul's teachings- about "coming apart" and "being separate". THAT is the differentiation state. For most fundamentalist Christians, this is where everything STOPS! This is the whole point and reason of Christianity to them ...... coming apart and being separate from the world. They don't understand WHY God made ALL of humanity and then decided to choose only a small segment of it to call his "chosen" (and then have the entire world broken into two camps: those for him -the tiny part- and those against him -the rest of humanity which he will eventually burn in hell for eternity) ........ but ......... that's what their "word" says and so that's how it's gotta be (and don't second-guess God or you'll go to hell too, most likely) ...

If you keep a watchful eye open when reading the NTestament, you'll find that the idea of sending MOST of humanity to hell for NOT believing ........ is really ........ hmmm ........... NOT ........ quite there. It's vaguely alluded to in some ways but there is actually nothing overtly said about it anywhere except in Revelation. Evidently and obviously then, this idea of Jesus Christ coming to save individuals from hell and destining them to heaven was NOT what those early believers had in mind with their new "WAY" philosophy and strategy. They were onto something else. What was that?

To the fundamentalist Christian of today, the very idea of hell NOT being the focus for escape (through belief in Jesus Christ) .... is ludicrous. If there's no hell, there's no POINT to believing in ANYTHING .... is there? Might as well do whatever the heck one wants if there are no consequences after death ......... eh?

Ah but ...... early Christianity went much DEEPER than focusing on the rights and benefits of the individual. It went deeper than focusing on a good life for all believers. It was, "ye are IN the world but not OF the world." It was, "that the world may know." It was -effectively- differentiation, change ...... and RE-integration. It was to make a DIFFERENCE in and to the world. It was, "that the WORLD might be saved."

What did that ubiquitous word "saved" mean? Was it to be saved from hell and to heaven? Well ..... if so, they somehow forgot to put that into their writing!~

It was to be saved from wrath and to be saved from enemies .

The large curve in those days pointed to destruction of humanity via wrath, retributions, fighting, revenge and general care-less-ness of fellow man. Paul's belief and faith was that this could be brought to an end through his new gospel of Jesus Christ. To that end, he sacrificed his life in order to start a new trend into existence.

If you look carefully at the NTestament, the "world" was NEVER an 'enemy'. Religious leaders who attempted to destroy or to neutralize the efforts of Paul ............ WERE his enemies but ......... the world at large was not. Paul never even condemned other religions or faiths and neither did Jesus. They expressed no interest in that sort of thing. They put no emphasis on "I'm starting a new religion here and mine is better than any others." (Why are Christians TODAY so focused on it then?)

If Christians today could get a grip on the idea that THEY are different in order to MAKE a positive difference in the world at large ... and to ACCEPT the fact that there are other religions which are equally and validly attempting to make their own contributions and are in every way, just as valid as Christianity ......... Christianity might become a good thing.

So universalist Christians are more tolerant, more advanced, less trouble and all that but they STILL believe that at some point in time -in God's own magical way- EVERYONE will eventually become a Christian believer!~ "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"!!

No, that won't happen. Perhaps every person will give assent that a new system is good and works and that God is good ...... but not every person will confess on bended knee that Christianity is Lord!

-Vince

Where does it say ALL will be at the same time Marge???? I cannot see that it says this even at either judgements, anything indicating all will be their either.

Seems some will be at one and then some at the other.

I was on a forum where many tried to tell me the same thing I gather your trying to say here too, if your saying all will be saved ultimately that is. There is simply nothing within the scriptures that IMHO does say what some believe concerning this issue at all. Let alone three places that verify this type of doctrine beyond a shadow of a doubt,

And particularly when one considers the two judgments that take place this doctrine simply just does not hold water at all. If that is what your saying. Am not sure.

And behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. (Rev. 22:12-13)
Luv Sandy

Do any of the ingredients in the sandwich disagree on the basics? If the ingredients in the sandwich were separated, questioned, would we not find agreement among the ingredients that God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son, etc.

Are there orthodox Christian religions in which the foll wing aren't found...AND INTERPRETED LITERALLY? Would there be an ingredient which does not take the characters in scripture as flesh and blood people, and not, as do Esotericists, qualities of mind?

Would there be any mainstream orthodox Christian religion which does not take the following literally?

!) the belief of an infant savior born to a virgin
2) his previous existence in heaven
3) celestial signs at the time of his birth
4) adoration by magi and shepherds
5) the offering of precious substances to the divine child
6) the slaughter of the innocents
7) the twelve year old Jesus (by whatever name) in the temple
8) the performing of miracles
9) the temptation by the Devil
10) the crucifixion
1i) the death, resurection and ascension into heaven of this Deity
12) that this resurrected God will be the judge of the dead at the last day?

The purpose of my posts is to show the differences between Exoteric and Esoteric interpretation of the above. I believe everyone should be made aware that there even exists an Esoteric interpretation and what that interpretation is, providing a choice. Exotericism creates separation...Esotericism, unity, oneness, contraction.

The Exotericists have not been hesitant in proclaiming (rather lonely at times) their interpretation. Why not mine?

Do all the different orthodox Christian religions (ingredients) worship God and Christ as Beings" Sure they do. The froth on all the relogions may differ in color, but blow the froth away, no matter what color, from each glass and you'll find the same brand of beer. Of course there are differences in doctrine and dogma. But at its base, is there disagreement? I think not.

I was reared in the old Catholic religion and also among non-Catholics. If the rust of my resentment (for yeas hatred, but no longer) over being hammered daily by these types works its way through and into the tone of my posts, I apologize. Had you lived in the Ms of the 40's and 50's, you'd understand how a non-conformist to the "Old Tyme Religion" was treated by loving orthodox Christians. You've no idea of how tight the Bible Belt and be drawn. But back then, it was't only the Fundies. It was Catholicism also.

Striver. I understand pretty well where you're going and what you're getting at. However, you might call me an already "converted" specimen who has progressed down this path a fair ways.

If you're attempting to influence die-hard Christians with what you're saying ........ in my opinion, you're going to get nothing from them but derision ..... because they can't connect the dots between "here" and "there". To them, it appears as though you're attempting to destroy their faith (or more importantly, to INFLUENCE their young and the unconverted to ..... believe in YOU ...... and a "bunch of gobbledegook".

So my point is that you need to untangle the gobbledegook and work on creating shorter paths with connecting dots which may result in an outsider being able to SEE some sort of connection pattern.

As I tried to illustrate with my sandwich example, there is NO sandwich spread that's actually bad or wrong. We eat them all at one time or another. They all go down the same hatch. Logically then .......... why NOT gob them all together and eat them at once? Why not make a "universal sandwich" and then pass a law which states that this sandwich spread is thenceforth going to be the ONLY way for people to create their sandwiches?

Nothing wrong with a gob sandwich spread but ......... there's nothing inherently right or proper about it either!~

-Vince

One of my favorite analogies reference "converting" is that of when we were young children and believed in Santa. Some of the older, more experienced children, a relative usually, would tell me/us there was no Santa. But the Santa fantasy was so entreanched in our minds, nothing anyone said to the contrary could even begin to penetrate our fantasy. It is the same with the Jesus symbol for Consciousness having been made objective and worshipped by O. Christianity.

Then the time came when the thought appeared in our minds of , "hey wait a minute, how can Santa get to all those houses in one night. This, "hey, wait a minute" revelation marked the beginning of the end of our Santa fantasy.

Until this happens to O. Christians reference the Jesus fantasy, nothing anyone can say is going to make a dent in their belief system.

Having taught or directed beginner classes in Esotericism (and doing so in Ms, the buckle on the Bible Belt) beginning in 1965, I am fully aware that until mind has evolved to its "hey, wait a minute," Saul to Paul experience regarding orthodox religion's interpretation of scripture, until holes begin to appear in their minds and they experience a series of "Hey, wait a minute" moments including the "hey, wait a minute, how could Jesus' death made up for every wrong thing ever done, what I'm doing is practically useless...like planting a seed which will lay dormant until its season arrives. But they are learning their's is not the only dog in the fight.

Without question, I will one day reach the point where I begin to shoot holes in my current spiritual frame of reference. The difference in this area between Exotericism and Esotericism is that we expect it, know it's going to happen, we welcome it...strive for it. Why? Because these revelations are opportunities; that there is always more to know and our tackling and becoming inclusive of this "new stuff" is how we grow spiritually...acquire (eventually) Christ mind.

As one student commented, "Oh, you mean that we go from Nerdship to Nerdship?"

So why do I post these esoteric interpretations? I mentioned two in my earlier post. The other reasons are, I remember that period between my leaving orthodox Christianity and discovering Esoteric Buddhism.

Having experienced my "hey, wait a minute" revelation regarding the absurdity of orthodox Christianity, I was in what I call my "Homing Pigeon" stage...going in circles, looking for a direction.

At that time in my life, I would have loved to have had someone introduce me to a possible path called Esotericism. Who can say there's not another me (during that interim) ready for their next step.

As Matthew 13:4-9 says, "And some fell among thorns, etc. But other seed fell into good ground and brought forth fruit, etc." I have no way of knowing whether or not there is fertile mental ground ready for new seed thoughts. So at the suggestion of the woman who introduced my wife and I to the esoteric, I am broadcasting seed.

And that is all I'm doing.

I suppose that could happen.

Who's to say which method is really, truly the best?

I'm an analytical type. I always want to know how stuff works and why this that and the other thing. I have a NEED to know before I can accept what is being said. So my approach is to EXPLAIN, EXPLAIN, EXPLAIN!~

Seems like a lot of people don't WANT to understand; they just want to be TOLD and be told by some authority whom they can "trust" ...... and then everything is just hunky-dory. Don't confuse them with anything else; once they trust a source, they just want to suck on that same tit and regurgitate what they've been told. For these people, I may be totally wasting my time I suppose.

Anyway, one of the things that I like to understand is WHY.

The Christian dogma and rationale is very dumb. It makes no sense at all. God gave people free will so they wouldn't be robots (because robots can't LOVE anything eh?) So free will people IMMEDIATELY chose what God detests. He couldn't even look at them after that. So he had to send his son to die for these sinners and then -if they BELIEVED that this had happened and BELIEVE in JC as their personal Lord and Savior ... all of their rotten sin is washed away (so to speak) .... or covered over with a blanket of blood so that ....... God can again LOOK at these vile "things" he made. He has no problem looking at his son's blood; that's much prettier than looking at the unblooded people he made.

Ok so ........ that sound kinda iffy but ........ maybe plausible. He's a weird guy but no point in questioning him because he's a lot stronger than us and we don't want to bug him.

But now comes the craziest part ........

Everyone who believes in Jesus and accepts him as their L+S is "saved" ...... from an eternal burning hell! Everyone who DOESN'T believe in Jesus is condemned to eternal hell for NOT believing.

What's more, once a person is saved, they are to abandon ALL of their own reasoning and just OBEY the instructions of God -(which come through extremely uncertain and unclear channels consisting of a mixture of Bible instructions "interpreted" correctly ....... the holy ghost -also recognized correctly- and ...... a consensus from other believers!!~

So now it's gone full circle. If God really demands all of this, then ....... why did he create man with a free will in the first place? He might just as WELL have done the robot trip! At least ALL robots would avoid hell and go to heaven automatically and then God WOULDN'T need to send anyone to hell. There's also no excuse for this very unclear communication between God and man. If God actually demands something from his kids, he has no business playing games with them using unclear communication.

So that all sounds pretty corny. What's more, it isn't even WRITTEN in the Bible. It "interpreted" out by using scraps and pieces and gluing them together into a decoupage.

Really .......... its a bunch of man-made garbage.

But if it's garbage, then WHAT DID those early Christians actually believe?

When we objectively research that from what's written in the NTestament alone (and ignore applied doctrines) ....... we come up with something that agrees pretty much with yours and mine understanding: it was a philosophy to enhance relations between human beings. To be saved from constant fighting, retributions, killings, stealings, thoughtlessness and carelessness.

-Vince

No one knows why. To know why would require our being able to go to the beginning and discover Cause. This of course is impossible. What beginning...when did this beginning begin? What was there before the beginning? If there was that, that was the beginning and we're back to the question, "Where did this Creator come from? Who or What created the Creator? The Hindu's refer to this originating Cause as the "Causeless Cause." which is like saying "God did it." So WHY is unknowable.

Forms in Cosmos appear, exist for a period of time, die (Super Nova's), become reabsorbed by space, become space, only to be formed by another cosmic wavicle (sp?) into another phenomenal form. What creates the wavicle; a wavicle which is huge to us, but compared to infinity is minuscule? Is the Big Bang an explosion of wavicles? Is space the Cow symbol of Hinduism that keeps giving Big Bangs? I can answer that one. "Yes," it is. But as to why, wHO can say?

It is certainly not news to you , Vince, and others on these boards that mankind has created a Being-God and has attributed the creation of phenomenal appearances in cosmos to this God. This is understandable of primitive man, but not of modern man. As the Bible says, there comes a time when childish, primitive reasoning has to be left behind.

In light of the latest Western science finally having discovered what the East (those at the top of their mental scale, that is) seemingly always knew, is that cosmos is "intrinsically dynamic."

The Hindu's, for at least a couple of thousand years B.C., called this ever-changing universe "The Cosmic Dance of Shiva,"

So, which Cosmos did the God of theology create...a cosmos that is changing as I'm typing this?

I think we humans are apt analogies. We have last names and can trace (insofar as my own ancestry is concerned) ancestry on my father's side to Ireland, my mother's to France, So the two systems (my parents) combined...had sex.

Am I now French , Irish, or both? Were my parent pure Irish or French? Of what ancestry were their parents, grandparents, great grand parents. Can I say for sure I'm French and Irish and no other?

Somewhere along the line my great-great grandfather copulated with a Cherokee Indian. So, other than in name only, am I what my original"originators" were; am I really a reproduction of the original parents who began my bloodline? Of course not.

How many marriages have their been? How many "Marriages in the Heavens have there been; how many changes resulted, as with the comparison of we today to those ancients who began our bloodline?

Also, with we promiscuous primates, did a little hanky-panky took place. Could great great-great (or whichever) grand father, have been the milk man... a Minute-Man perhaps?

We today are not even close to being the originals. I believe the same reasoning can be applied to the phenomenal forms into which space condenses. Even the planet out of which we are created could very well be made of limitless Big Bang material.

How many Big Bangs have their been? Or do we believe, very possibly correctly, like the flea which believes his is the only dog, that our Big Bang is the only Big Bang?

Do Big Bangs have, even on their tremendous scale, Super Novas, become space, homogeneous with the matter of other contracted Big Bangs? So of what are we made? I damn sure don't know.

It is laughable for anyone to think, "my religion, my path, knows!!"

Well, I'm rambling again. But in light of the above, do not Popes, Preachers, and clergy in general sound downright stupid?

What about these Masters I quote. They admit not knowing WHY!

We are becoming aware of the dynamics of the temporary system of which we are a part and are coming to grasp our purpose-function withing our system. We now know that our planet, therefore we, are connected to cosmos; that as far as we know, infinity is an interlocked web of relationships. We are coming to know that our quality of consciousness determines the quality of the matter of the planet; that yes, we are out brother's keeper. But as to WHY, no one knows.

that you7 would say;
'we come up with something that agrees pretty much with yours and mine understanding'


lol


a-r-r-o-g-a-n-t....

...m-o-u-s-e!

sheesh.


Funny how cognitive dissonace only applies to us.

hahahahaha

very entertaining thread....thanks.