Men or women as priests or pastors? Many think it makes no difference, and in Churches which don't emphasize Communion as a sacrament, maybe not. But what about Churches that DO emphasize Communion as a sacrament?

This article gives a perspective to the sacramental function of priest/pastor, and argues that use of women in that function destroys the function.

I have wondered why the Catholic Church, for instance, has insisted so firmly on a male priesthood. The Bible seems to favor males in that role, but nowhere in Scripture is it definitively stated. The article's perspective, although expressed from the Anglican Church, provides some strong Scriptural arguments for male priest/pastor-hood. The Anglican and Episcopal Churches, by the way, generally DO accept women as priests.

Biblical thoughts or comments?????

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
[email protected], [email protected]

Wise men still seek him.

Galatians 3:18 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

God is not a man or a woman -- God is spirit. Assigning a sex to God is like trying to determine how old God is. God is so much bigger than that. Gender, the concept of male and female, is a human quality. Humans were created in the image of God, but both male and female were created in the image of God. We call God Father because we try to put God into terms that our limited human minds can comprehend. We can understand the idea of God as our Creator, our Protector, our Provider, and a human example of that we can relate to is a father. But God also demonstrates qualities that we would associate with a mother as well -- "feminine" qualities of tenderness, gentleness, mercy, patience.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Isaiah 66:13 "As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem."

Isaiah 42:14 For a long time I have kept silent, I have been quiet and held myself back. But now, like a woman in childbirth, I cry out, I gasp and pant. I will lay waste the mountains and hills and dry up all their vegetation; I will turn rivers into islands and dry up the pools."

Deuteronomy 32:18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

Two questions:

1) Is Jesus male?

2) Is Jesus God?

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
[email protected], [email protected]

Wise men still seek him.

1) Is Jesus male?

Yes.

2) Is Jesus God?

Yes.

3) Was Jesus also human?

Yes.

Human beings have to have a gender, therefore, Jesus as a human being here on earth had a gender. God is a whole lot bigger than that.

Was Jesus there (with the Father etc) before coming to earth?

How big was He then?

Did He loose any of His Deity then or now?

Or did He just sorta set it aside?

Just wondering what you think.

J: Was Jesus there (with the Father etc) before coming to earth?

Yes. Before he was born as the man, Jesus of Nazareth, he was pre-existent as the Logos, the Word of God.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

J: How big was He then?

Asking how big God is, is like asking how old God is. Or where, exactly God is located. God is eternal, and much, much bigger than our limited human minds can possibly imagine.

Jeremiah 23:23-24 "Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away? Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.

Isaiah 40:12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?

Isaiah 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?"

J: Did He loose any of His Deity then or now?

No.

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

Hebrews 1:10-12 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

J: Or did He just sorta set it aside?

In order for the Word to become flesh and dwell among us, to walk here on earth as a human being, he willingly chose to set aside his deity for that time, to make himself nothing.

Philippians 2:5-8 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death even death on a cross!

I agree with that but that is not what I thought I read before in your reply to Dave.

Jesus is and always was imv God but He chose to live as man if you will but at anytime He could have called all the power down as it were.

Thanks Kate.

Sorry for the delay. My DSL modem failed strangely, so that it looked like it was still working, and caused problems on the line so that the telco changed my password, and it snowballed from there . But Computer Doc finally got everything figured out and I'm back on the air.

My point, Kate, was:

If Jesus is fully God (as well as being fully human with no division between his Divinity and his Humanity, as is required by the Trinity Doctrine), and if Jesus is male, then God (Father Son, and Holy Spirit) has male gender even though the Father and Spirit have spiritual natures.

That doesn't detract from God's Omnipotence or Sovereignty, or from his dignity. That's just the way he is, and failing to recognize his maleness IMHO detracts from what God himself has chosen to be.

?????

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
[email protected], [email protected]

Wise men still seek him.

Whether we are male or female is an earthly, physical quality. Our gender is determined by our chromosomes, hormones, and our actual physical bodies - if you have a uterus, that indicates you are female and your chromosomes are XX, not XY.

Jesus lived here on earth as a human being. He could not be genderless. For the time and place he came to, it made much more sense to incarnate as a man than as a woman - if the Word had come to earth as a female, few would have listened to her or taken her seriously. She wouldn't have even been allowed to set foot in the inner courts of the temple. Jesus had a beard (there is a verse that says it was plucked out); there is a verse that says he was circumcised as an infant; those things indicate he was humanly male. But God doesn't have a beard and was not circumcised - God is not a man, God is spirit. I have not seen anything to indicate that a Spirit has a gender.

God is referred to as "Father" and as "he", for OUR sake, to try to help us better imagine and relate to God. God is certainly not an "it", and if I have to use a pronoun for God, I will use "he", but I know that is from traditions and customs of men. It's easier, and not awkward like "Father/Mother God", which IMO, is not really accurate either. But when I pray the Lord's Prayer, I pray, "Our Creator, who art in Heaven..."

The Holy Spirit is referred to in some passages with male pronouns - again, I believe, to illustrate that the Spirit is not an impersonal "it", or just an active force, as some teach, but truly God. But interestingly, the Wisdom of God is clearly identified as female, and many of the early churches equated Wisdom, Sophia, as the Holy Spirit. Also, the Shekinah Glory, the presence of God, is described in feminine terms. It's a divine mystery to be sure, but since both the Father and the Holy Spirit are fully God, and both men AND women are created in the image of God - not just men - I believe that the Father represents what we humans perceive as the "masculine" qualities of God, the "Father" qualities (provider, protector, strength, etc), and the Holy Spirit represents the "feminine" "Mother" qualities (mercy, compassion, comfort, etc). That's just my take on it, my best way of understanding.

Lots of good human-logic stuff there in your post, Kate. And human logic goes right along with what you said. But we are dealing with God-logic, which is entirely different. God-logic says things like "The entirely innocent One will suffer and die for the sins of all the guilty". That ain't logical in human terms - but it apparently is in God-logic.

So, question:

If Jesus is entirely God, as well as entirely a male human, how can God NOT have male nature?

That question comes from Trinity theology, which recognises no quality one Person of the Trinity has that is not held by the others. In other words, that all the Persons are of ONE Substance, or nature. That's more God-logic, and hard for us to grasp in our human logics; we can only accept in faith.

God also has female nature (see Genesis 1:27). Since he created both men and women in his own image, his image must be both male and female. This might not make human-logic sense, but that is what he says about himself. Again, something hard for us to grasp; it too can only be accepted in faith.

As to that Jesus appeared as a man instead of as a woman because a woman woudn't have been accepted, the last time I heard that argument was from an Episcopal priest. She also tried to convince us that the Bible was NOT God's inspired word, but just the ramblings of biased men. That turned out to be the official doctrine of the Episcopal Church, which they had changed on me while I wasn't looking. I was Episcopal 53 years before I discovered their apostasies and left to join with the Catholic Church.

It's amazing sometimes how blind we can be to what is happening around us!

So it is that your argument is used by deviant theologians - which leads me to suspect and fear it. The argument also appears to contradict the scriptures which I've cited. The second reason is much more important than the first.

But I'm listening. Really. If what you say doesn't contradict Scripture and the ancient teachings of the Church, then you could be right.

????????

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
[email protected], [email protected]

Wise men still seek him.

Gender is determined by the physical body....the, um, standard equipment you were born with...hormones, and chromosomes. These are all part of our physical bodies. God does not have a physical body, God is not a human being, God is spirit.

Jesus was fully God, but also fully human. He had many qualities and experiences as a human being that Father and the Holy Spirit, as spiritual beings do not posess. Jesus was born an infant, matured and grew. Jesus went through puberty. Jesus felt hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and pain. Jesus died. These things are all part of the human experience. Since Jesus was God, we can say that God experienced all those things - birth, growth, hunger, thirst, weariness, and even death. But God, as a spiritual being, the part of God revealed to us as Father and Holy Spirit, has not experienced any of that. God doesn't get tired or hungry, God cannot die. Even though Jesus did.

I don't think that's human logic, because it doesn't make sense in the natural world. Try to explain that to an atheist or agnostic and they will scratch their head.

Again, I think God revealed himself as Father for our sake, to try to make it easier for mere humans to comprehend. But both male and female reflect God's image, and God has characteristics that we think of as both masculine and feminine.

But we do disagree on the absolute authority of scripture. I believe there are many things in the Bible that contradict known science, contradict other scriptures, and contradict what we know to be true about the nature of God. If I read in the Bible that God condoned or commanded an act of evil, that contradicts what I know and believe to be true about the nature of God. In those instances, I believe the scripture was a record of what men did, and they used God to excuse their evil actions. Since I don't accept all scripture we have today as being inspired, this unfortunately may not be the best place for me to post.

One thing I am curious about, however - as a Catholic, do you believe the Apochrypha is also inspired scripture? Does it cause an issue when discussing with a Protestant who does not?

"Jesus was fully God, but also fully human. He had many qualities and experiences as a human being that Father and the Holy Spirit, as spiritual beings do not possess."

What you said contradicts the scriptures I cited, especially the one from Genesis, which says God has both male and female natures. It also contradicts Trinity doctrine in that, if Jesus and the Father are One, then the Father and the Spirit experience what Jesus experiences.

?????

As you say, that doesn't make sense in the natural (human) world and logics. It is to be accepted in faith as a "thing unseen".

"I believe there are many things in the Bible that contradict known science, contradict other scriptures, and contradict what we know to be true about the nature of God."

And, if it doesn't make 'sense' in human terms, you won't believe it, even though that's what God said.

Do you understand that that makes you also an apostate along with the Episcopalians and others? The Bible is to be taken entire; humans are not in a position to either deny or explain away what God has caused to be written.

Re the Apocrypha, yes, I believe it's inspired writing. However, in deleting the Apocrypha from their C a n o n of Scripture, the Protestants didn't delete anything vital for Salvation. So I just quote from the Protestant Bible.

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
[email protected], [email protected]

Wise men still seek him.

[Edited to remove advertisement inserted at word C a n o n]

D: What you said contradicts the scriptures I cited, especially the one from Genesis, which says God has both male and female natures.

Not sure how I am contradicting that God has both male and female nature, as I've given examples of it. I would think we are in agreement on that, except I think it means that God, being spirit, has no specific gender, has qualities of both -- the Father represents the masculine qualities of God and the Holy Spirit shows us more of the feminine qualities of God; you, on the other hand, believe that God is male, and so therefore clergy who administer the sacraments should be male. At least, that was my understanding of your original post. If so, then what happened to the female nature of God? Where does that fit in?

D: It also contradicts Trinity doctrine in that, if Jesus and the Father are One, then the Father and the Spirit experience what Jesus experiences.

God was able to experience the things that Jesus experienced, through Jesus...but the Father has never died, and neither has the Holy Spirit.

D: And, if it doesn't make 'sense' in human terms, you won't believe it, even though that's what God said.

I don't believe it's what God said simply because it is written in a book about God, no. I worship God, not the book written about God.

D: Do you understand that that makes you also an apostate along with the Episcopalians and others?

No, I don't understand that. I don't think the Episcopalians are apostate, even though I don't believe all of their doctrine. And I don't think the Catholics are apostate, even though I don't believe in transubstantiation, the inspiration of the Apocrypha, or most of the Marian doctrines. Do you realize that a lot of fundamentalist Christians would say you are apostate for believing in the perpetual virginity, immaculate conception, and assumption of Mary? Those doctrines are nowhere in the Bible, but are solely the traditions of the Catholic Church. But I don't think that makes you apostate -- I think it just means we believe and understand some things differently.

An apostate is someone who has abandoned the Christian faith. I have not abandoned my faith in God or in Jesus Christ, I have rejected the Bible as inerrant and infallible and can't accept it as a magical perfect book. I think, technically, that makes me a heretic, not an apostate.

D: The Bible is to be taken entire; humans are not in a position to either deny or explain away what God has caused to be written.

And this was determined....by men. And those men were inspired and directed by God? Which was determined...by men. After a lot of argument. In the 4th century a series of synods produced canonical lists of 39, 46, 51. 54. or 57 Old Testament books, take your pick. And a group of men eventually determined that the Apocrypha was canonical, but then the Protestant Reformers later said, no it's not the word of God and threw it out -- a decision made...by men. But the Ethiopian Orthodox canon contains 81 books...as decided by...men. And then there are multiple versions of the Bible as we know it today...and some will tell you anything other than the KJV is corrupt -- which means anyone who is a non-English speaker is reading a corrupted Bible. Another determination...by men.

I could write a book and say, "this is inspired scripture". I could write on page 117, "everything in this book is God-breathed", including everything written after I write those words. And a few hundred years from now, a bunch of men could argue for a while and then decide that what I wrote was inspired by God. That doesn't make it so. Who were those men? How do we know we can trust them, or that they had valid motives -- not politics or personal power? Because we know they were inspired by God to decide for the world which scriptures were canon and should be included in the Bible? How do we know they were inspired and directed by God? Because those men told us so, of course.

Do you see how this is very circular reasoning?

D: Re the Apocrypha, yes, I believe it's inspired writing. However, in deleting the Apocrypha from their Canon of Scripture, the Protestants didn't delete anything vital for Salvation. So I just quote from the Protestant Bible.

Is believing that God is male a doctrine that is vital for Salvation? Is believing that the entire Bible is inerrant and infallible vital for Salvation?

Just some things to think about -- a slightly different point of view. But I'm not really here to rattle your cage, Dave. We had some good conversations in the past, years ago when I started reading things in the Bible that I could not accept and began to have a real crisis of faith, both you and Jack the Mennonite gave me a lot of reassurance =) I found your original question in this thread intriguing, but I'm really looking for an open dialogue about the Bible. If this board is only appropriate for folks who don't question scripture or the church, then I'll leave you to your discussions and I won't stir things up.

Peace,
Kate

1) Maybe I misunderstood. Seemed like you said God has no maleness since he is spirit. No?

2) No, neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit died. Jesus did die - Divinity and Humanity.

3) "I don't believe it's what God said simply because it is written in a book about God, no. I worship God, not the book written about God."

How do you worship God if you reject his Word in Scripture? Are you worshiping God as he is, or are you worshiping something you've made up in your own mind?

4) No, if you feel free to pick and choose which Bible passages you will believe, then you wouldn't understand about apostasy. An apostate is someone who has abandoned one or more teachings of the Christian faith, particularly essential teachings like the Bible's authority and validity. Something like that leaves you without any authority other than yourself - which is an exceedingly bad way to be.

5) And if you are free to pick and choose in Scripture, then you wouldn't understand about Scripture's inspiration either. Nor would you trust Scripture as your guide for life and Salvation. You would call it something like "circular reasoning", which makes sense in human logic. Again, you are without an authoritative rudder by which to steer your life and beliefs.

6) Being willing to reject what God has said about himself must certainly make Jesus' work of Salvation a lot more difficult. Rejecting God's Word in Scripture leaves you open to every faith-destroying spiritual innovation that comes along. The essence of Salvation is submission to the will of God rather than insistence on your own way. Insistence on one's own way, or rebellion, is what got the human race in trouble to start with.

According to Marge's note at the top of the page, the forum is intended for Bible discussions "from a believer's point of view". We can answer questions for you, but it isn't an appropriate place for expressing non-biblical arguments as I understand her instructions.

We begin from the point of view that the Bible IS God's inspired word. It's entirely possible that different people might have differences of understanding regarding Bible passages, which can be appropriately discussed. But it looks like you start from the point of view that the Bible is NOT God's inspired Word; that does make it difficult.

I wish you luck, although I do think you've got yourself pointed in exactly the wrong direction. My advice to you would be to seriously question why you have a hard time believing in Scripture (or in the Church, I suspect). And try wondering why your Creator, who died for you on a Cross, would mess with your mind and endanger what he bought for you when he hung on that Cross. That wouldn't be logical in human or Godly terms.

Meanwhile, you are well on the way to not believing in God at all, which is a terrible thing!

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
[email protected], [email protected]

Wise men (and women) still seek him.

Trying to believe the Bible was infallible and inerrant was leading me on a path of disbelief. Realizing that I could read it with my eyes open, and know that the truth of God is in there, but there are a lot of other things in there too, like allegory, literature, and history as recorded by the victors...restored my faith in God.

I keep feeling like this conversation isn't appropriate here, but then I keep feeling like it would be rude to not respond. So...

1) Maybe I misunderstood. Seemed like you said God has no maleness since he is spirit. No?

No. God does not have only one human gender, since God:
is not a man (Numbers 23:19)
is spirit (John 4:24)
is the image that both male and female are created in (Genesis 1:27)
exhibits qualities that we humans think of as both masculine AND feminine (too many verses to list, lots of them are listed here:http://www.womenutc.com/feminineimagesforgodinthebible1.htm)
So...I don't think of God as female, but not as exclusively male, either. God is beyond human gender (determined by chromosomes, hormones, and our physical bodies). I thought your original post indicated God is male, so clergy should be male. Am I misunderstanding you? If that is what you are saying, then what do you think happened to the female qualities of God?

2) No, neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit died. Jesus did die - Divinity and Humanity.

No argument, on this we agree =)

How do you worship God if you reject his Word in Scripture? Are you worshiping God as he is, or are you worshiping something you've made up in your own mind?

I worship the God I found in the scriptures, in Jesus Christ who is the exact image of the invisible God. The God I worship is our Creator (Gen 1;1, John 1:3), our Provider (Matt 6:11), who is Spirit (John 4:24), who is Love (1 John 4:8), who is holy and there is no evil in God at all (James 1:13). The God I worship tells us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, and that everyone is our neighbor. Am I worshiping the wrong God?

4) No, if you feel free to pick and choose which Bible passages you will believe, then you wouldn't understand about apostasy. An apostate is someone who has abandoned one or more teachings of the Christian faith, particularly essential teachings like the Bible's authority and validity. Something like that leaves you without any authority other than yourself - which is an exceedingly bad way to be.

I went with the Catholic Encyclopedia's definition of apostasy and heresy:

Apostasy a fide, or perfidiĉ

Perfidiĉ is the complete and voluntary abandonment of the Christian religion, whether the apostate embraces another religion such as Paganism, Judaism, Mohammedanism, etc., or merely makes profession of Naturalism, Rationalism, etc. The heretic differs from the apostate in that he only denies one or more of the doctrines of revealed religion, whereas the apostate denies the religion itself, a sin which has always been looked upon as one of the most grievous.

I have not abandoned my Christian faith, I have rejected belief that the Bible is inerrant and infallible. So...I still think that makes me a heretic.

5) And if you are free to pick and choose in Scripture, then you wouldn't understand about Scripture's inspiration either. Nor would you trust Scripture as your guide for life and Salvation. You would call it something like "circular reasoning", which makes sense in human logic. Again, you are without an authoritative rudder by which to steer your life and beliefs.

I don't trust the men and the Church (not necessarily the Catholic Church, just the Church as an institution in general) that have handled scripture throughout the centuries, and that are the ones who decided for themselves what was inspired and what was not. This is the same Church and the same men who are responsible for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunts during medieval times, the Salem Witch Trials, for countless wars and atrocities, greed, corruption and extravagance among the clergy, selling indulgences, etc. -- and none of THAT evil was inspired by God. The authoritative rudder by which to steer my life and beliefs is the character of God as he has been revealed through Jesus Christ. If we have seen Jesus, we have seen the Father, and he sent the Holy Spirit to be our counselor.

6) Being willing to reject what God has said about himself must certainly make Jesus' work of Salvation a lot more difficult. Rejecting God's Word in Scripture leaves you open to every faith-destroying spiritual innovation that comes along. The essence of Salvation is submission to the will of God rather than insistence on your own way. Insistence on one's own way, or rebellion, is what got the human race in trouble to start with.

Doesn't make it more difficult for me to believe. As I said...studying the Bible in depth and trying to force myself to accept and believe some of the things I read is what almost made me abandon my faith completely. Do you remember the passage it was that stopped me in my tracks, Dave?

This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" (I Sam 15:2-3)

I'm sorry, I don't believe that God told people to wipe out another race of people, no matter how awful they were, but especially I do not believe God told people to kill babies and children. Just don't believe it, period. If anything, I think the Jews slaughtered all those people, then when they wrote the account as history, they added the parts about God commanding them to do it so it wouldn't look like the horrible, evil, thing that it was.

I also don't believe God told the Israelites to steal land and goods from other tribes, and kill or enslave them. I don't believe that God told the Israelites that they should keep young virgin girls for themselves as spoils of war. I don't believe that women are unclean after having a baby, and unclean for a longer period of time if they have a girl than if they have a boy. I don't believe that God said women who were raped should be stoned to death if they didn't scream loud enough, or should be forced to marry their rapists. I don't believe a man could send his virgin daughters out to a crowd of men with rape on their minds and be considered righteous for doing so. I don't believe that mouthy teenagers should be stoned to death at the city gates. I don't believe that eating shellfish is an abomination, even though I don't personally care for it. Kinda fond of barbequed ribs, though.

I don't know that any of those things are essential to salvation, though, or to the message and mission of Jesus.

According to Marge's note at the top of the page, the forum is intended for Bible discussions "from a believer's point of view".

Ah, now...see...that's where I misunderstood. I thought that meant Bible discussions from the point of view of "believers in God", or "believers in Jesus", not "believers in the infallibility of the Bible". My mistake. =) Well, it was nice chatting with you for a little while, anyway.

Peace,
Kate

Well, Kate, we can answer questions about the Bible. I'm willing to stretch that a little bit if it seems beneficial. And, yes, there is allegory and history in Scripture. ALL of it is God's Word - every word.

1) Of course God has human gender! Jesus is fully a human male as well as being fully divine, so God is fully male also. Trinity doctrine. And from Genesis we know God is female also. And he is spirit. I don't pretend to know exactly how all that works - I don't need to know; I accept it because that's what God says about himself in his Scriptures and through the ancient Teachings of the Church. God is miraculous, and that is one of his miracles. Science nor human logic doesn't know the entire Truth; it stumbles on miracles and, because it doesn't understand, denies them. Don't make that same mistake!

Suggestion: If you like the Catholic Encyclopedia, read its articles on Trinity. But read to understand what is said, not to pick holes and find defects. It's tedious reading but worth-while; Jay or Jack might be able to suggest some safe and good Protestant sources for Trinity.

The more I study about Trinity, the more it leads me into glimpses of God's true nature, and reveals his extreme and merciful love for his creatures. Not that I understand it, but I get more glimpses. I think it would help you in your problem of accepting.

3-4) Maybe you are only borderline apostate? I say that because, although you haven't abandoned the whole of Christianity, you have abandoned two of the primary pillars of Christian faith: The entirety and authority of Scripture, and the ancient Teachings of the Church. By insisting on your right to pick and choose from Scripture and Teachings, you are in rebellion against God because he gave it to us entire. Your course is to accept what you don't understand and wait patiently for Jesus to explain it to you in his own good time. That would be submission rather than rebellion. Otherwise, you will continue drifting little by little away from faith.

5) I agree you have good reason to be wary of the men of the Church. Catholic or Protestant, there are many corrupt and false men and women running the Church (I'm ex-Episcopal -- I know!!).

You have to differentiate between the men and the Church itself. Think how Jesus first established the Church (Matthew 16:15-19): He established it on Peter's understanding of Jesus' true nature, and gave it awesome powers (keys to heaven, binding and loosing), even though he well knew that Peter was impetuous, sometimes venal, and a coward. With all his defects, the Church was established through Peter's understanding. That was sufficient.

Jesus has taken care of his Bride ever since, just as Hosea took care of Gomer, loving her in spite of her adulteries and keeping her safe. Not even the split between Catholics and Protestants has disturbed those ancient Scriptures and truths.

Trust Jesus and his Word given in Scripture and the ancient Teachings of the Church.

It's wise to not trust the men of the Church, or those who speak against the Church. Check what they say against Scripture and the ancient Teachings, and you will quickly know which men can be trusted.

6) I doubt you can FORCE yourself to believe; that isn't Jesus' way anyhow. You have two courses open to you: submission or rebellion. In rebellion you demand understanding right now and deny whatever isn't understood. In submission, you accept what you don't understand and practice it as well as you can, while waiting patiently for Jesus to give you understanding. He WILL do that, either in this world or when you see him face to face in the next. He will NOT force you.

Yes, God did tell the Israelites to conquer the lands of others, take spoils, and kill all those people. He also stiffened Pharaoh's neck so that he WOULD sin, and then punished Egypt because of it (and because of their treatment of Israel). There's a lot about all that I don't understand; I accept that it was right if God did it - that's as far as I can get now (I have my doubts also). But I WILL understand later on, and will discover WHY it was right for him to do that. Faith.

Otherwise, I will have rebelled against my Maker and Judge. Not a good thing, that even I can understand.

And, no, understanding of those things isn't essential for Salvation. But the difference between submission and rebellion IS essential to Salvation.

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
[email protected], [email protected]

Wise men still seek him.