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The Water of the New Birth???

January 29 2012 at 11:53 PM
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Jay  (Login BrotherJ)
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What the Water of the New Birth Means
The Word of God is the water referred to in John 3:5, as proven in Ephesians 5:26; Jn. 6:63; 15:3; 17:17; 1 Peter 1:23; and James 1:18. When one believes the Word of God . . . that he is a sinner, that Christ died to save him from all sin, that if he confesses his sins to God and turns from sin with a whole heart and believes the gospel . . . he is conforming to the Word, then the Holy Spirit will transform him by faith in the power of the Word of God and the blood of Christ and give him the evidences of salvation as listed below. One must get a Bible experience and live as God demands or be lost. He must begin reading the Bible and praying to God. He must begin to walk and live in the Spirit and conform to the Word of God as he receives the light (1 Jn. 1:7; Jn. 8:31-32).btu.

 
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Amen!

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January 30 2012, 6:55 AM 

Good post!

Pastor Jack Howell

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Dave
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Re: Amen!

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January 30 2012, 12:26 PM 


It's a very long process sometimes, and arduous. Paul tells us about it in a passage beginning at Romans 7:14. Victory comes through the Cross and our repentance, but it wasn't and isn't an EASY thing!! It always requires death for victory: Death of the Cross, and death of our rebellious wills.

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Sin fights hard to survive and keep on doing its work!

But hang in there! "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
dave@christos.cjb.net, dpeirce@christian.net

What a caterpillar calls death and the end of the world, God calls a butterfly!

 
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Sandy
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Re: The Water of the New Birth???

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January 31 2012, 12:24 PM 

Yes, that is absolutely true Jay. But what Jesus spoke at HIs baptism in water, written in Mt. 3:15, is also where God has ordained for this to happen within us as we follow after HIM, doing the same in faith.

Nobody is saying the physical water does anything without the spiritual water in action within us, for crying out loud. But neither am I saying that the spiritual water that begins what is promised there happens without the physical water either. Not because God could not have done it a different way either. He simply just chose not to do so to confound the wise of this world that do not believe apparently for what is promised at that time.

That is why my husband always prays over the one he baptizes, asking the Lord to do all thru that spiritual water that he did promise to do when one is baptized in the physical stuff you see.

Meaning you can try to climb up to God any way you want to. But without doing it HIS way which you have to find, will not work.
And that message be written in Genesis chapter 11.

Meaning what is written in Rm. 6:3-8, has to do with what God does when we are baptized into or in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission or stopping of the bondage we are born within us to sin. Even though true, Jesus still has to contend with destroying the body of sin once that bondage has been crucified and buried in HIM. Whether you or anyone else here understands and believes it or not. Your not going to change it no more than those guys could change what they wanted to change in Genesis chapter 11 at all.

Sorry charlie, but that just bees the way it is. MY not saying it either, but the Word states it pretty clearly

If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Some use scripture whenever it serves to prove what they have chosen to believe. But then reject or ignore others whenever it doesn't, but instead is contradictory to what they have chosen to believe. Instead of finding out why some do contradict others dealing with the same subjects.
Love in Christ,
Sandy


 
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Sandy
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And by the way Dave

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January 31 2012, 12:47 PM 

I am not saying what I wrote there for my benefit at all. But for others that might wake up and see finally what God does want to do within us at when we are baptized.

It is not for an outward show of an inward confession made when we repented at all. It is for the Spirit to do the work promised to us when we do go in faith, believing for Him to do so. And that is the part that is so important we do understand what HE desires to do then.

I could just as well skip saying anything at all. Because I did receive this happening over 25 years ago after I had repented finally, my seeing what the Word was saying despite what my peers had been teaching me all along. So for me to share it, is only because God has told me to do so. Because the purpose for baptism in water is not understood by many today. I believe at one time, the church you attend did understand it. I used to have an old old antique family Catholic Bible given to me by someone from Al's family some years ago. Until the Lord told us to give it to another family member that was Catholic. So we did. But I still had it after we were baptized again, this time for the right reason, instead of the wrong one. And after reading what was written in it about baptism, I began to understand why they did at one time begin to baptize babies. Not that I agree with it. as IMO repentance needs to come first. But I also saw the reason why that perhaps they eventually did do so. Because it is important. The problem is a baby cannot make a decision to follow Christ at all. And IMO the person doing the following must make that decision.

Meaning I share this for others, not for myself.

If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Some use scripture whenever it serves to prove what they have chosen to believe. But then reject or ignore others whenever it doesn't, but instead is contradictory to what they have chosen to believe. Instead of finding out why some do contradict others dealing with the same subjects.
Love in Christ,
Sandy


 
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Dave
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Your point?

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January 31 2012, 5:20 PM 


You seem to be preaching repentance and obedience to Scripture by proposing unscriptural multiple baptisms. As the Nicene Creed states, "We [Christians] acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" (and see Ephesians 4:5). Obviously water Baptism includes action by the Holy Spirit since, according to many different verses, we are saved and made into the image of Christ by that Baptism.

"Baptism in the Spirit" is a separate matter, to be respected but not essential for Salvation.

??????

 
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Jay
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Re: The Water of the New Birth???

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January 31 2012, 7:56 PM 

I have no idea what you said there...one thing is for sure there are several baptisms in Scripture about seven I believe. Paul talks about the 3 for believers.

Hebrews 6:2 (KJV)
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

========================================================
Seven Baptisms

1. John's baptism in water (Mt. 3; Mk. 1; Lk. 3; 7:29-30; Jn. 1:31-33; 3:23-26; 10:40; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 19:3)

2. Christ's baptism in water (Jn. 3:22; 4:1-2)

3. Baptism in suffering (Lk. 12:50)

4. Baptism in the cloud and in the sea (1Cor. 10:2)

5. Christian baptism in water (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38-41; 8:12-16, 36-38; 9:18; 10:47-48; 16:15,33; 18:8; 19:5; 22:16; 1Cor. 1:13-17; 1Pet. 3:21)

6. Baptism into Christ and into His body (Rom. 6:3-7; 1Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12)

7. Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11,14; 20:22-23; Mk. 1:8; 10:38-39; Lk. 3:16; Jn. 1:33; 7:37-39; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 19:2-3)

Three Baptisms for Believers:

1. Into Christ or into His body at repentance and the new birth (pt. 6, above). Called "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5), because it is the only baptism that saves the soul and brings into the body of Christ.

2. Water baptism after one is saved (pt. 5, above and note, Mt. 3:11).

3. Spirit baptism, the enduement of power for service. It can take place before water baptism (Acts 10:44-48) or after it (Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-11; 8:12-21; 19:1-7).

The Holy Spirit is the agent to baptize into Christ and into His body (1Cor. 12:13); Christ is the agent to baptize in the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11; Jn. 1:31-33); and the minister is the agent to baptize into water (Mt. 28:19).

Baptism is a much misunderstood topic and many teach it as a requirement for salvation. Is it?



    
This message has been edited by BrotherJ on Jan 31, 2012 8:06 PM


 
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Dave
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Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 3 2012, 7:04 PM 


"Baptism..... many teach it as a requirement for salvation. Is it?"

Many scriptures seem to imply this (Ro 6:3-4, Col 2:11-13 and, especially: John 3:3-5, for three quick examples). But are there exceptions where official water Baptism might not be necessary for Salvation??

Some raise the question of babies who die before they can be baptized; in earlier years many lay Catholics have consigned such children to a state of "limbo" while others have maintained that God in his mercy must have made provision for them even if we don't know what that provision is. The Catholic Church refuses to take a stand on this, but inclines toward the second thought (See Catechism #1261. Others raise the question of those who were martyred before they could be baptized; but the Church holds that they received the Baptism of Blood, having laid down their lives for Christ and the Gospel (See Catechism #1258. And people being instructed for Baptism, but who die before Baptism, receive the Baptism of Desire (See Catechism #1259.

I don't know that there are specific scriptural references for any of those three, but we do know that "God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the WHOLE WORLD might be saved through him" (slight alteration in literal text :^>, John 3:17). And we know that God will show mercy and pity on whomever he chooses (Romans 9:15). And we know from numerous scriptures that we are freed from the requirements of a strict Law. So we believe that God, who died on the Cross for all of us, has made provision for those who are helpless.

?????

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
dave@christos.cjb.net, dpeirce@christian.net

Do the best best you can, and leave the rest to God. That's what He's there for.

 
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Sandy
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Re: Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 4 2012, 4:45 PM 

Dave I don't know if it is a requirement to be saved. The thief on the cross was saved. But he was also not going to be continue life in that physical body either.

I know that some say he was saved under the OT law. But was he really?

You see, Dave, baptisms are for the living, not those that are dieing at the time they do repent, as I understand it anyway. And certainly the baptism into or in the name of Jesus Chrsit for the remission or deliverance from sins within us, is only beneficial to the one that is still living in these these bodies yet.

Same thing applies to the baptism of the Holy Ghost that was poured out to begin with upon all flesh to receive by faith also, on that day of Pentecost. As it is our believing for the promises of God that causes faith to rise up and move for us to receive what is being believed for that is promised that causes God to act upon what we are asking for.

What I am telling you is only for one to begin to walk in His righteousness after repenting more fully is all. Both of the baptisms that Peter as well as the writer of Hebrews told us about written in Acts 2:38 as well as Hebr. 6:1-2.

But for me to tell you one cannot be saved that has never been baptized, or for that matter has been baptized for the wrong reasons, not believing for anything at the time, that is not for me to say Dave. That is up to God entirely. I just know my life changed once I did begin to understand the purpose for both of the baptisms that Peter and the writer of Hebrews told them they need to receive first before continuing on. As I was not taught what I believe today. Nor did I learn it from any man either, as so many would like to think I did either. I found it written in the Word. Then obeyed, and rece3ived what was promised as I did obey it in faith. The person that baptized me last in water also seeing the purpose for it pretty much as we did, was not from any Oneness group at all. He and his wife both are actually died in the wool Trinitarians. They just found out what the Word says about what is to happen when we are baptized in water within us, as a result of what Jesus Christ does at that time. The water is only the place ordained by God for this to happen. Don't like it, then talk to God not me. He is the one that made the rules about this, not I.

And Jay can give me all the flack about other baptisms as if the one written in Rm. 6:3 does not represent the one that is to take place at the water, all he wants. But for me, no cigar anymore on that lie ever again at all.

Why. Because while it says into, into means the same as in the name of Jesus Christ. Even the Oneness has some of it wrong. Seeing that if this is not spoken over the one being baptized then, that they are not going to receive what God has for them to receive either. That is crap. Same as one has to speak over the one at the water being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost is also crap too. Say what you want to. But what makes the difference is not what that one necessarily speaks there at all, but what God does do as a result of someone asking HIM in faith, believing he will do all that He promised to do then. Which is to crucify and bury the old man at that time, that cause one to be in bondage to sin within to begin with. And replace it with the New Man, who is Jesus Christ within not only our spirits, but also our hearts, so he has then changed both as it says in Ez. chapter 36. Which was promised way back then by the God. Believe me or not. Not my problem.

Plus I also can testify what has happened in my life ever since I did go asking and believing for what is promised to happen also. It changed. Just as it changed when I repented. and received the baptism in the Holy Ghost later, after repenting too. And it is still changing yet to this day, because of his now putting to death the body of sinful flesh in me as I die daily also. Just like it says he will do, after the old man has been crucified in HIM finally.

Many do not see these things because they choose not to see them. I am not telling you anything that is not written in the Word.

We are not only to have the Spirit residing within us, but also we are to reside within Him as well. And it is these that will be the true overcomers of this world. Not because of what they do entirely either, other than obeying Gods Words. But because of what He will do for us from within.

That is what Jesus was trying to tell the Pharisees and Scribes about written in Mt. 23:24-31. But especially I like the one that says what it does in Mt. 23:25-26. Because that is speaking of what He wants to do in our lives once we do give that life over to follow after HIM. First to clean the cup and the platter from within, so that he then can begin to work on the outside becoming clean as well. So that when He does come for us we will be found walking in what it says written in 1 Thess. 5:
23: AND THE VERY GOD OF PEACE, SANCTIFY YOU WHOLLY; AND I PRAY GOD YOUR WHOLE SPIRIT AND OUL AND BODY BE PRESERVED BLAMELESS UNTO THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

But this cannot begin to take place fully, until we also obey what He tells us to do in faith, for the right purpose and not the wrong one either. Telling you this very clearly in what it says finally about continuing on as God permits written after what is listed we need to begin in before we do so. Even though true, those this writer was writing to had supposedly already obeyed in faith what they were told to do so way back then of course. Which is not true for most today. Which is why Jesus speaks of not only entering in thru the narrow gate, but also continuing on to find that narrow way also that HE said few find.

But to judge another salvation, no way do I do so anymore. Because I am not God.

But because the thief on the cross was saved, I would have to say yes, I believe one can be saved, yet never have been baptized at all. Pretty much just as he was.

Plus another problem is, you have to wonder just how many have actually really repented yet to begin with. Because of how most are told they must do to be saved to begin with. But that is another subject entirely from what we are talking aout here. Which mainly has something to do with water here. Just as most only just get wet when they are baptized in water without going in faith believing for God to do what He has promised to do as well. Meaning they did obey to be baptized but did not ask God for anything when they were baptized. Or asked amiss which James says neither receives anything then in James chapter 1 as well as James 4:3.



If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Pr. 10:11-12 "The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life, but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love,
Sandy


 
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Dave
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Re: Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 4 2012, 9:14 PM 


First, I really don't recall saying that an unbaptized person is unsaved. In fact, I offered three possible exceptions to that. However, what of a person who refuses baptism? It's hard for me to see how a person who COULD receive water Baptism, but does not, can be saved. That isn't a Judgement; that's a question that appears in my mind about something that seems contrary to Scriptures requiring Baptism.

The Thief was still living when he repented and believed. Why was he unbaptized either by Blood or by Desire?

Jay wasn't giving you flack at all. He quoted from Scripture and, by definition, that is NOT flack.

Two of the baptisms he referenced are not Christian: The Baptism of John, and the Baptism in the Cloud and Sea; both were Baptisms into Moses and the Law. The other Baptisms, as I understand it, all included both water (for the body) and the Holy Spirit (for the soul), which carries forgiveness of sins and Salvation. Why would additional Baptisms be needed?

As to whether an individual has "really and truly" repented or believed..... I cannot see their hearts to know; only Jesus sees completely and only he Judges.

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
dave@christos.cjb.net, dpeirce@christian.net

 
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Sandy
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Re: Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 5 2012, 8:27 PM 

Yes I know what Jay posted Dave.

John was sent to baptize Jesus Christ, so that in turn thereafter, as we are baptize into Jesus Christ, that we receive what is written in Rm. 6:3-8. Meaning the death of the old man so that our righteousness could begin. Which is why Jesus said what he did when He did lead the way for us to follow for what He did say there. Which was for our righteousness to begin then as a result of what He does at the time within us.

As for the baptism in the cloud and Sea that was simply an example of what was to come spiritually for us apparently as well. Not the same of course, but an example only. Just as many things that are written about within the OT can be seen by us as well.

We also have a wilderness experience too, just as Jesus did as well as those did also in the OT. But our experience is spiritual, whereas their was physical. But all those that follow after Jesus will experience the wilderness once they are baptized into or in His name. Both representing the same thing, but just using different wording to describe it. Which often happens in scripture all the time. these are the things that unbeliever try to use to prove that scripture is not saying the same thing at all quite often. Even the same writers can use different ways of describing an issue also. It does not man that scripture is not true, a so many would like to think. It simply means the other failed to put it exactly the same way as others that wrote about the same issue.
Surely you can agree with that, whether you like or agree with what I believe or not, can't you?

As for Jay giving me flack or not, is simply your opinion at best. Meaning maybe and maybe not.

I do agree if one does understand the purpose of baptism, then refuses to be baptized, that one most likely is going to be in heap big trouble at their judgement, that is for sure. And some that refuse to understand the purpose finally, could be in trouble also. But that is not for me or you or anyone else to say IMO. That is God business period as I see it. Unless you can show me that someone else is judging anothers salvation itself, at either one of them of course.

As for not being able to see anothers heart thru our own thoughts, we agree there totally. But I do believe God can reveal the heart of another when He does feel the need to do so just as He did when He had Samuel pick David over all the others finally. Just because Samuel was looking at the outward appearance to begin with, does not man he ended up seeing that only at the end.

Of course, Jesus also gave us a few clues as to how tell what might be within the heart of another too, written in Matthew chapter 15, as well as Mark chapter 7 for example.

But I would have to agree with you on the issue of baptism being of the utmost importance of course. As this is the place where we do begin in Christ according to what scipture says anyway.

I just heard a tape on how many so called christians will end up in hell. No doubt bout it IMO. It is just not my place to send them there. I am sure you would also agree it is not your place to do so either wouldn't you? And therefore I don't do so now either.

As for the baptism in the spirit. That is explained very nicely what happens at that baptism, which is why it says baptisms in the plural written in Hebr. 6:2, unless your going to argue there isn't this baptism needed after that ones does repent finally of course. which could also be described as being confirmed for us by the dove coming down on Jesus, just before God spoke about His being pleased with him. That one being described nicely in Acts 2:1-4, which was the first time this happened, then also in described again rather well in Acts 10:44-46, our knowing this did not happen when one is water baptized always at all because of what was written there in Acts 10:47-48, which tells us again what the baptism in the name of the Lord or in the name, or into Jesus Christ took place of course. Then again it speaks of the two baptisms pretty clearly being done again in Acts 19:5, which had to be about water baptism according to what it says in Acts 10:47-48, then verse 6, describing their receiving the baptism in the Spirit which lines up with Acts chapter 2, plus Acts 10:44-46.

I know that Catholicism teaches water baptism Dave. But mainly before one has repented. But do they teach about the baptism in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues also? I know they normally don't, even though some in that church has received. As we used to go to some of the Charismatic type meetings held in the basement of a Catholic Church that was across the street from the apartment Al and I lived in years ago in Amarillo, TX. they just didn't teach it in the church, nor do they today either I do not think. Which is why you no doubt question the s written there in Hebr. 6:2, regarding what is to happen in order for one to be on the foundational principles of Christ that is described there before continuing on as God allows.

Yet scripture clearly says you err as I see it in what you have chosen to believe.

Which confuses me as to why Jay did write what he did write about baptisms. As I know he believe in the baptism in the Holy Ghost, as does Jack also. It is their friend Nucc that does not apparently believe in this one. Of course, some do not believe that is essential to being saved. No doubt Jay and Jack both probably do not. Many if not most believe to be saved, all you have to do is repent pretty much. And not saying that isn't also requried either. But to be born again, you cannot enter into what Jesus is speaking of there until you have received of God what is to be receive by repenting, and being baptized into Jesus Christ at the water, then also recieving the baptism in the Holy Ghost. But does that mean one cannot be saved? I don't know. I just understand now that Jesus was talking about our entering into something He brought for us to enter into right here on earth, he telling us this in what he clearly tells Nicodemus finally in John 3:12, after Nicodemus asked him that second question. and what it is we are to enter into is what is written about this kingdom message that the first apostles preached about in Rm. 14:17. And that happens as a result of what Jesus told those guys as to when the kingdom would come written about in Lk. 17:21.

But of course, if you can take what I wrote, proving scripturally I am mistaken please do. Because so far nobody has been able to do so by showing those scriptures I gave you to mean something else other than the kingdom gospel that the first converts did preach about. That is why they called it what they did thruout the book of Acts especially. Which tells the story of how the church did begin after Jesus ascended. which is what I go by. Whether others do or not. And anything that does not line up with what is written in that Word, once one has studied and began to rightly divide from scripture to scripture regarding the same subject, needs to question it as far as I am concerned. whether it the ancient churches writing aside from the Word, or the writings of those today.



If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Pr. 10:11-12 "The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life, but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love,
Sandy



    
This message has been edited by AmConvinced on Feb 5, 2012 8:32 PM


 
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Dave
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Re: Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 6 2012, 11:36 AM 


You said that Catholicism teaches water Baptism, but before repentance. That isn't true. Unbaptized adults are given Christian teaching before they are baptized, and are led through repentance immediately before Baptism. Children aren't able to repent, so the community (their parents, godparents, family, and congregation) repents in their name and incurs the obligation to raise them up in the Christian faith.

Baptism scripturally is always of both water and the Holy Spirit, as I said before. No additional Baptism is necessary for Salvation; once Baptized, the Holy Spirit is received, period. Nothing wrong in a baptism of the spirit, in fact it helps a lot of people, but it's not necessary for Salvation. As Scripture says, "there is one Faith, one Baptism..."

I have received the baptism of the spirit as an adult, but I have been Baptized only once - into both water and the Spirit - when I was a child.

 
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Sandy
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Re: Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 9 2012, 10:52 AM 

I know all of that. Or perhaps you was not aware of the fact that my husband was raised in the Catholic Church. And that most of my family on my mothers side were at one time also Catholic, until my great grandfather left the church. My aunt was adopted out of a Catholic orphanage years ago of course.

Plus I also went to adult Catechism classes for a time also, because of considering becoming a Catholic when I was young.

So I am not completely ignorant of what they do believe. And also why they do believe what they do also Dave.

I just do not agree with them regarding baptizing babies before they do repent. But I even think I began to understand possibly why they did begin to do so too. Because they knew how important water baptism was according to the old Catholic Bible I used to have at one time. Not sure, but I thought I mentioned having one that explained a lot in it some years ago, until I did give it to some family members that were Catholic finally.

But am curious about something you did mention here. As I know you was not raised in the Catholic Church. So did they not baptize you in water again when you did finally join. As you was an adult was you not? That was my understanding of what you have shared here anyway.

I am not question what you believe today. But just know by what you have shared that you was not baptized in water by the Catholic church as a baby. And no doubt also attended the same type of adult Catechism classes that I attended at one time also.

Nor am I questioning your baptism or anyone elses either. I am hoping they do that themselves, to find out whether God has done what is promised He would do at ones baptism in water according to what is written in Rm. 6:3-8.

If you do not speak in tongues though, I might question you having received the baptism in the Spirit though. Why? Because it seems that doing so is the evidence of having received that baptism according to what is written in Acts chapter 10 as well as what it says about all receiving in Acts 2:1-4, when this was first received. As it seem doing so went along with receiving that one.

As for their being one baptism. That is true, there is only one. But happens three different ways. Meaning it includes repentance as receiving a type of baptism by father revealing His son to one personally, as He did in Mt. 16:16. Then we are to be baptized at the water into Jesus Christ. And then we are to receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost also Dave. Those three making up the one baptism that Ephesians is speaking of that you was attempting to interpret. Kind of like the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, makes up the One Spirit that God consists of also, one could say.

Often it seems what God does, comes in threes. Like faith hope and charity. Amazing isn't it, but true none the less. Or knowledge, understanding and wisdom. those three always together too, don't they?

But anyway, not trying to knock your religious affiliation either. Just asking if and when the Catholic Church did baptize you is all. Or if they did. As it has been many many years since I had much to do with the Catholic Church. And while I didn't finish the Catechism classes, as I recall, they were going to baptize me again even though I had already been baptized in water in the Lutheran church before. Also if you do speak in tongues. as the Spirit gives you utterance of course??? Or not.






If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Pr. 10:11-12 "The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life, but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love,
Sandy


 
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Dave
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Re: Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 9 2012, 12:44 PM 


As I said, I was baptized as a child - in a Southern Baptist Church no less. I don't know how my father got that arranged, but he did. I have not been re-baptized. That original Baptism was valid in the Episcopal Church, and then in the Catholic Church. I did attend catechism classes in the Catholic Church, and received the sacrament of Confirmation but not Baptism.

My original Baptism was both the Baptism of water and of the Spirit (Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, whichever). John's baptisms were into Moses and the Law, but not into the Son and the Holy Spirit, and so did not convey the Holy Spirit, and therefore some of them needed to be Baptized into the Spirit. A Lutheran Baptism, so far as I know, is done with water in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: Therefore, it is a valid Baptism.

Since The Spirit distributes his Gifts "to each as he wills" (1 Corinthians 12:11), why would you question my baptism in the spirit if I don't speak in tongues? Perhaps he intended for me a different gift? It's HIS call, you know! He gives whatever gift or gifts will serve the common good (v 7).

However, yes, I was given a prayer language.

 
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Sandy
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Re: Are there exceptions to a requirement for Baptism?

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February 10 2012, 1:43 AM 

Because of what it says in the first 4 verses of chapter 14 about speaking in tongues given when we receive the Spririt. Which proves they are not the same as the divers kinds of tongues, that always has an interpretation following. That is why Paul told them not to speak in the tongues that are for their own edification, but only the gifts that are for the edification of those in the congregation Dave. Plus it tells us that tongues are the evidence of having received this baptism, as I said written in Acts chapter 10. Which is how Peter knew they house of Cornelius had received the baptism also. Then he commanded them to be baptized in the in the name of the Lord. Which is the same baptism as being baptized into or in the name of Jesus Christ. True, Johns baptism is not more. But the one that begun after Jesus Christ was baptized for the purpose of leading us to what we are to do after repenting, is still in effect to this day. Which is why those that Paul baptized in the name of the Lord recorded in Acts 19:5, just before they received the baptism in the Spirit is still for today for the purpose for God to do what He has promised to do written in Rm. 6:3 & 6. Which is why that is called a baptism of death. Not our own literal death and burial of course, but the death of the old man that brought forth sin within all mankind in the first place. So that the New man who is Christ Jesus can take over entirely within us Dave.

It is all there written in the scriptures I have given you. Of course. I never tell anyone something that isn't written to begin with. Whether they agree with me or not.

And that is the reason the writer of Hebrews, whether it be Paul or someone else, writes what He did about the foundational principles of christ in Hebr. 6:1-2. Writing baptisms rather than baptism there. Meaning that is what is required of one to be on that foundation to begin with according to what it says there, as well as in other places too. It just seems to bring it out more clearly for one to see in the scripture in Hebrews than some of the others told about what the first apostles did do and preach to begin with.

IMO many confuse the divers kinds of tongues told about in Rm. 12:10. Which I understand. Because both consist of one speaking in tongues. Except the divers kinds of tongues are to be used for the edifying of others, along with an interpretation of course. Whereas the tongues received when we are filled of baptized in the Spirit, or Holy Ghost, whichever, no matter, is for our own edification instead. This clearly being revealed the difference, if one catches what Paul is saying in 1st Corinthians chapter 14.

Hope this answers your question though, as to why I did ask. The answer being written in Acts 2:4, because IMO when it says all spoke, that means all spoke. Plus Acts 10:46 was the evidence they knew they had received the same baptism they received when all spoke. Or course, that proving that one can receive even before they are baptized in water because of what did happen there. But can one receive either before repenting or making that commitment to follow Christ Jesus before? That I would have to say no because of what Phillip asked the Eunuch before he baptized him in water even. Of course, in order to see this, one does have to study what they first church did do I believe.

And yes, the Lutheran church does not allow anyone to partake of the sacraments unless they are confirmed first in their church. Which is what Catechism classes was for. I didn't know if the Catholic church rebaptized others in water when they did join, if one had been baptized before. As I never did ask before I did stop going to the classes finally, whether they did do so if one was baptized elsewhere. Some churches do rebaptize one when you join their church. But anyway, those scriptures are some of why I do believe what I do.




If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Pr. 10:11-12 "The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life, but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love,
Sandy


 
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Dave
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Did "all" speak in tongues?

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February 10 2012, 12:22 PM 


And how 1 Cor 14:5 says: "I would like it if all of you spoke in tongues...." So it must have been that some of them didn't. The Scriptural truth remains: that some received different gifts and not everyone received the same gifts.

You should have read just one verse farther.

 
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Sandy
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Re: Did "all" speak in tongues?

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February 10 2012, 8:50 PM 

I have David. There it is speaking of all not speaking in the gift of tongues, which is what Paul then goes into talking about.

Let me ask you a question Dave? Do you honestly believe that God would choose you and I to receive the tongues that edifies us, yet it not be available to all others? And I would like an answer to my question only. Because that is the tongues that the first part of that is speaking of. The tongues that they were causing disruption by all speaking in them often when meeting with one another. Yet the one speaking being the only one edified then. And Paul was giving them instruction to stop doing this because it was disrupting the service unduly when it was not the gift of tongues in operation then for all to be edified by once the interpretation came forth.

So I am going to ask you if you really believe your God is going to give us something that only edifies us, and yet not offer it to everybody to receive that edification also?

I don't. And so yes, they all spoke in tongues when they received this baptism. It being a part of the baptism itself, along with the baptism of love apparently too.

Yet all do not operate in the same gifts, because we are a part of a body having different gifts. the understanding of this needing for you to read and study what is written in 1st Corinthians chapter 12. And of course, the love chapter being chapter 13.

So yes, I did read far enough finally to get the understanding of what Paul was talking about in that entire chapter. Plus I read back to where he does talk about the gifts also. But understand also that what is the greatest is the love that God gives to us that far surpasses all other things period. The love that many are beginning to diss the utter importance we do receive today unfortunately.

And one thing I came back here to tell you Dave, so that all knows. I am no antichatholic or anti any other religion that preaches Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior at all. What I am, is if I believe something is being taught that is in error, I am anti that. But even Jesus told his disciples to leave some alone that was not with him, because they were gathering other to him, not running them off. So anyone that does that I cannot be anti anything at all. True some are, but I am not. One reason is, I believe we all can be wrong about some things. And could be as long as we do walk seeing thru that dark glass still. Which IMO will be until we do go to be with him in that final resurrection that some are also trying to o away with even to this day written about in 2 Tim. 2:18. Which is why it says we are to walk in faith hope and charity, but the greatest of these is charity, written in the last verse in 1 Cor. chapter 13.

But it also speaks of the many that will lose that first love also written in Mt. 24:12-13.

I also totally understand your reluctance to see what I am saying there that Paul does teach in chapter 14 by comparing the tongues received that does edify us, compared to the gift of tongues, which true not all does receive. I have never given a message in tongues to this day. But I have received the tongues that is for ones own edification. As have you apparently also. But have you ever given a message to the body thru first speaking in the gift of tongues, which does require someone to give the interpretation? Most that do so, are usually gifted with both the tongues and the interpretation both.

Meaning sorry, but you need to rightly didive this time between the purpose of the tongues that do edify the speaker only, compared to those that are for the purpose of edifying the body instead in the ways that he teaches in that chapter following your scripture.

Which is why I asked you what I have asked you about.

Otherwise I would have said your right. And did believe so for a while, until the Lord revealed to me the difference in the purpose. But HE did.





If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Pr. 10:11-12 "The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life, but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love,
Sandy


 
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Dave
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Re: Did "all" speak in tongues?

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February 10 2012, 10:27 PM 


Personally, I think God is going to do it his way, just as he said in the Scripture. All the Spiritual gifts are given for the common good, and we trust they are given in the manner that will promote the greatest common good. As to edification, God will edify you through his Scriptures, his Church - and the Holy Spirit who speaks sometimes privately and sometimes publicly.

 
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Jay
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This is an intertesting subject....

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February 10 2012, 11:05 PM 

Many have said one has to speak in tongues as evidence of the Holy Ghost this ran rapid in the pentecostal groups in bygone years.

Does one have to speak in tongues to be saved...that is like saying you don't know if you have accepted Christ isn't? One thing is for sure there are certainly saints at home with God now and none of the OT guys and gals
spoke in tongues but I would say they are more saved then the earth dwellers here.

As we know Jesus said it wasn't given because at that time He wasn't glorified.

I think one can know if they are saved and I would guess there are some in heaven who died after Jesus' death and taking His place beside the Father that never spoke in tongues.

Is it for us today I think it is....do all Christians speak in tongues or have spoken in tongues probably not.

 
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Dave
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Re: This is an intertesting subject....

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February 11 2012, 12:06 AM 


The way I understood her, Jay, she is saying that everybody who receives the pentecostal 'baptism in the spirit' will speak in tongues and that those who don't speak in tongues aren't baptized in the spirit.

Maybe I missed something?

I envy your certainty, Jay. I always have a scrupulous doubt that I have accepted him "well enough", or that I follow him well enough. He will tell me at the proper time, and meanwhile I will keep on truckin' happy.gif.

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
dave@christos.cjb.net, dpeirce@christian.net

Sign outside our Church: "Come early! Get a back seat!"

 
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Jay
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Re: This is an intertesting subject....

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February 11 2012, 12:23 PM 

Keep on truckin Dave use the word (Bible) and that voice that speaks to you...I believe one knows the right voice to follow.

Repent when you falter get up and continue towards the goal.

I think you have the right idea about what she is saying...imv Dave if it is a requirement God will supply it all the seeking some go through might be useless to a point.

Matthew 21:22 (KJV)
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.


 
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Dave
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Re: This is an intertesting subject....

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February 11 2012, 3:02 PM 


The one thing I regret about the pentecostal 'baptism in the Spirit' is that some Christians use tongues to establish that they are "better" Christians than those who don't have that particular gift. Otherwise, I think it's a wonderful thing.

If, as you pointed out, 'tongues' were necessary, it would have been provided to everyone.

There are too many good people who display many of the Spiritual gifts in their lives, but who don't speak in tongues. Those people give evidence of their Spirit Baptism every day in the fruits of their lives.

But Satan will try to twist even the Spiritual gifts to his purpose, and some will allow him to do that thinking they are honoring God.

"Repent when you falter get up and continue towards the goal".

I need that encouragement, Jay. I have to repent sooo much happy.gif!

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
dave@christos.cjb.net, dpeirce@christian.net

Parish Bulletin: "A bean supper will be held on Tuesday evening in the church hall. Music will follow."

 
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Jay
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Back in the day

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February 11 2012, 3:13 PM 

I have to agree with the idea that some think it is a requirement and you have to speak in tongues...I experienced that attitude in the Oneness groups and some of the COG and it was sure pushed int the AOG years back...

When I first encountered this it wasn't referred to as the prayer language either. That seems to have been added to lighten the blow of let there be an interpreter as at one time many seemed to speak in tongues at the same time or service.

I do know it was pushed to seek for it...I believe it is something God freely gives...FREELY

 
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Dave
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Freely given

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February 11 2012, 4:20 PM 


Yes, FREELY, according to his will, as the Scripture says. I always think of 'FREELY' as meaning generously, but according to his own preference.

I call mine a prayer language as that's what it seems most like. I've never used it aloud, and kind of wondered therefore how it would edify others besides myself happy.gif. It's more like those Spiritual intercessions made with groanings which can't be said (Romans 8:26).

That, by the way, is one of my favorite verses: when I don't know how or what to pray, the Holy Spirit will make my prayer for me!

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
dave@christos.cjb.net, dpeirce@christian.net

A lot of church members singing 'Standing on the Promises' are really just sitting on the premises.

 
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Jay
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Lots of sitting for sure....

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February 11 2012, 6:33 PM 

As I see it God would have put anything that is a must have or requirement for salvation and entrance into the kingdom/heave in simple terms....Jesus said I am the way....

 
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Dave
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Yes

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February 11 2012, 8:59 PM 


He is the way, and he doesn't put boobytraps in our path or try otherwise to impede our following him. He WANTS us to succeed.

In faith, Dave
Viva Texas
dave@christos.cjb.net, dpeirce@christian.net

When there is nothing left but God, that is when you find out God is all you need.

 
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Sandy
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lol

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February 12 2012, 12:11 AM 

I did finally read all you both said here. And you do need to read what I did write below about this issue too. With scripture, of course, which I always give to prove what I am saying.

As we were not talking about what happens when one does when they do repent, receive God into their life at all, that begin their salvation. W

We was talking about the baptism in the Holy Ghost guys.

No wonder everyone says to me are you saying I am not saved.

Well Jay, while you attended a oneness church, I never did attend one. So I don't give a fig what they say about when salvation begins and why at all. Lots of things they say I disagree with. Just like lots of things youse guys say I disagree with too.

Thank God for my husband telling me to study, seeking the Lord for truth myself, not listening to what other men tell me is true always. As any one of us can be wrong. but read what I wrote just a bit ago, and tell me I am wrong there, proving it in scipture that what I said isn't true.

and next time you run across someone that speaks in tongues, show them the same thing, too, encouraging them to seek the baptism. But just to know when they received that same breath of life, that was the beginning of their salvation also as long as they continued on following Christ.

It is terrible what some of the lies do to others. But especially this one by someone believing they could have had something after all. But didn't because of thinking they already did have it to begin with. Which is what you both are telling other are you not? Sure you are.

I revealed this to a lady years ago after the Lord revealed that scirpture to me. Because she was convinced that she also had the baptism too, because of knowing she had the Spirit. She seeing it, then received, because of seeing she was saved, but she did not yet have the baptism in the Spirit she thought she did.

What a shame some of the things that people believe do to them that never find out because they do not study these issues out, seeking God about them. When God is no respector of persons. If He will talk to me, revealing things to me, He will do the same for anyone else too. You just have to get with HIM opening the door for Him to do so. Then learn to know HIS voice of course. As it is not the same as my hearing a preacher speak. I think that Elijah found that out to be true while in that cave, didn't he?

Anyway, gotta go for now. Maybe will check back and find out what else the two of you came up with again sometimes. happy.gif

I really do love you both by the way. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here at all.



If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Pr. 10:11-12 "The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life, but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love,
Sandy


 
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Dave
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How many Baptisms?

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February 15 2012, 4:16 PM 


OK, now we have the Baptism of Water and the Spirit, then the baptism of the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost, as some say), and now the baptism of the 'breath of life'?

However, Scripture still says there is one Baptism, so I'd have to assume that is correct -- and that all the different 'baptisms' are contained in the One Baptism in Water and the Spirit. Once you have the Spirit, you have the Spirit - and such of his gifts as he in his sovereignty has apportioned to you. You are free, of course, to ask for additional gifts.

Jay listed 8 or 10 different baptisms also, from Scripture. Basically, he listed the Baptism into Moses, or the Law, which doesn't convey the Spirit, and the Baptism into Water and the Spirit, which does. I looked up "baptism" on a Bible search, and it looks like we probably could find 30 or 40 more kinds of baptism.

But that's the advantage of sticking with the Church, Sandy. Because the ancient Church passed its teachings down to us, I know that "We acknowledge One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins". That is WHY that phrase was included in the Nicene Creed, which we say weekly to remind us about our basic beliefs and doctrines. It's one of the tools Jesus has given us through his Church to help us keep straight and unified.

 
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Am Convinced
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Re: How many Baptisms?

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February 20 2012, 5:48 PM 

One in three. Same as God is one in three Dave.

Matthew wrote about three of them in what he wrote in Mt. 29:19. That is why it used to be called the Great Commission you see. Same commission that is written in the last chapter of Mark and Luke also. Some just do not understand what it is saying there at all. Speaking of the one in three baptisms that is written also about in Eph. 4:5.

I never saw it for years until I finally asked the Lord why the difference in what is written there compared to what the others wrote about this. He telling me no difference at all. Not even in what is written in Acts 2:38, as well as Hebr. 6:1-2 about the Great Commission as well. Which consisted of the foundational principles of Christ of course. All of them saying the same thing after all. What a revolting development what revelation was to me also. My finally waking up to what He was saying there after all. Not having to eliminate any of the other scriptures that also seemed to be speaking of the same thing. And along about the time, God also told me His Word does not contradict itself anywhere. And when it seems to do so, it is not the Word doing so, but our understanding of the Word doing it always. Of course, we should know that be true already eh?

My point also being, I do see three after all. Maybe even more than some of you do over here.

happy.gif



Love in Christ,
Sandy

 
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Sandy
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Re: This is an intertesting subject....

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February 11 2012, 11:36 PM 

Yes but here you are not talking about the same thing. Because one can receive the same thing they received when Jesus breathed on them, telling them to receive the Holy Ghost and be saved Jay. Yet still not have received the baptism in the spirit at all. Just as what happened to those that was in that upper room.

Surely you do not think that what Jesus did to them then, by breathing on them telling them to receive the Holy Ghost right then and there, that they didn't receive the same thing that Adam and Eve recieved when He breathed the breath of life into them as well are you? As was not Jesus God no matter how you see him otherwise? And therefore having the power to give them the Holy Ghost the same as was done in the beginning told about in Genesis?

So you can be saved, my friend yet never have been baptized in the Holy Ghost at all.

But of course, you won't hear this truth told in most churches today true. But none the less it the truth. You do know that Jesus just didn't breath on them because he had just used some Scope recently at all wanting to show off his good breath do you? NO.

If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Pr. 10:11-12 "The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life, but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love,
Sandy


 
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