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  • can i just suggest....
    • Brent
      Posted Oct 29, 2003 4:21 PM

      Paul,
      If I could just jump in here and make an observation. There are no scriptures, to my knowledge, that directly state that miraclous signs stopped. However, I also know of no scripture that specifically states that they continued. This seems to leave us in a difficult spot. We must infer through study and reason which side of this issue we accept. The only direct reference to miraclous acts done in modern day comes from 2Thes 2:9 as a sign of "the coming of the lawless one...". This would seem to put into question the origin of any "miraclous signs" we might see preformed. This is not, however, a stand-alone proof verse against "miracles" today. It is only a warning against the possible source of them. So where does that leave us? Well, most scriptures do seem to refer to signs as a proof of divine guideance or as a validation of the status of an apostle 2Cor 12:12. There also appears to be a pattern of limiting the performance of said signs to either the apostles or those they directly laid hands on.Acts8:16-17 Does this prove that others did not recieve the gift of signs? Not by itself. So since there is no irrefutable proof that signs stopped, is there proof they continued? Outside of the warning against "the lawless one", there are only vague indirect refernces to present day signs. Not what I'd called solid proof either. So we come down to motive. There are multiple refences(see the previous posts on this topic) refering to the signs as being the proofs I stated earlier. Proofs to those who had no ready access to the same orginized presentation of new testament scriptre we have today. These were people who had been directly under the old law at this point...not people 20+ generations removed from it. This was to be a major shifted in out look for them requiring a major level of proof. Even the greatest of unbeliever today is at least parially aware of christian philosphy/life. But is there any reason to believe God would ever stop sending people signs when they drifted away from him? Luke 16:19-31 tell the story of the rich man and Lazerus in which God clearly states that there can come a time when he has given all the signs he is going to give and it is the individuals responsibility to follow his teachings o not. Once again, this is not a total closing of the book on miracles/signs, but if the Bible does not clearly state it and the evidece, if not against it, is at least equally split....should we be arguing about the salvation implications here? Do they even exsist? Granted, I am cynical about signs. I've seen only fakes. I've only experienced those of "the lawless one". Are there true signs preformed? Maybe. Do they change what is in the scriptures? Not a word. Then are they an important part of christian life? I have to say...not likely. The scripture tells us what we need. It's up to us from there. Just some rambling thoughts of mine.

      Brent
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    ...........................THE BOOK

    What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


    There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

    This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

    Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
    Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

    Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

    It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

    At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

    They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

    The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

    At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

    Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

    The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

    The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

    This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

    To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

    This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

    Here is the list of players;

    5 Godly Elders
    10 Not so Godly Elders
    120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
    2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
    2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
    Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
    Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
     

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