I am a member at Hillcrest Church of Christ in Abilene, TX. We have been experiencing similar problems in our church that Madison Church of Christ has.

I have read everything I can get my hands on about the Church Growth Movement including your website and links.

In an attempt to reconcile differences in our church, the elders requested that everyone sign up for a meeting on Wednesday night (these meetings were
spread over several weeks in order to keep the groups small). The idea was to have a representation from each class at each meeting. Two elders would be present in each meeting and they would have one moderator. The only stipulation put on the meeting is that it has to be "positive".

Did you experience anything like this at Madison? I know the moderator in our meeting and I don't think it is an attempt at the Delphi Technique.

How can I get my points across about the error of the changes without getting negative? Do you have any ideas? Our meeting is tomorrow night, Wed Jan 23, 2002.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Kevin Hamm

About 3 years ago Hillcrest adopted the Purpose Driven Church model. In August, 2001 we hired a new pulpit minister (who was selected by a selection committee and approved by the elders, there was no vote by the congregation). It wasn't until the end of September that we realized something was wrong. Quite a few new songs were sung during the Sunday morning worship service that included alot of hand clapping. There arose such a furor that the next Sunday only older, more traditional songs were sung. The Sunday after that it was mixed, old and new. Also during this time, Brent McCall, a church growth expert conducted a survey of the church. My wife and I were dealing with her mother being in the hospital when the survey was given to the church, so we didn't know what the questions were, but the next Sunday there was another big explosion. We were told that the survey's questions were too vague (could be answered any number of ways depending on how you interpreted the questions) and that they were terribly skewed.

My suspicion is that there are a few elders with ties to the university here, Abilene Christian University, that lord over the other elders. The more conservative elders are intimidated by them because they have PHD's. This is just an educated guess on my part.

Quite a few people who supported this change have left our church (some key people however are still here). I don't know if they wanted to change faster or if they truly did not want to be involved in dividing the church. Another possibility is that they have only left temporarily and will return when things are going more their way. It's all so bazaar.

I was thinking along the same lines for the meeting tomorrow night as far as reading applicable Scripture. I believe only the Word might possibly get through to these people. I also plan on addressing the problems with the workbook "Experiencing God" since it is being taught in one of the Ladies' classes on Wednesday nights. I just wonder if the elders have even read it.

We recently found out that a worship committee has been appointed by the pulpit minister to help design the worship service. The elders agreed to this committee and gave them much freedom including skits. There is no elder serving on this committee at this time, but there was one serving on it when it was first formed. This elder is the one that "represents the post-moderns" (his words). Who would have thought?

We had a meeting with the elders about 2 weeks ago on a Sunday night. It was open to the whole church. Only about 20 people attended (not including the elders) out of a membership of about 800. Nothing was accomplished as far as I know. But then you already guessed that. It was after this meeting that I read about the Delphi Technique and realized that one of the elders was using it during that meeting. The same elder that has a PHD, is a professor at ACU and served on the worship committee.

The week before this meeting open to the whole church, a small group of people wanting this change met with the elders. I understand it lasted until midnight and they made a list of five (5) things they needed from the elders:

1. Elders' public commitment to spiritual and numerical growth
2. Public commitment to being led by the Holy Spirit through prayer and tangible evidence of it
3. Each elder take a group of members and visit them to understand spiritual needs, including those people who have already chosen to leave
4. Immediate selection of more new elders so these spiritual needs can be met 5. Small-group study by the elders of a book on spiritual leadership, such as They Smell Like Sheep, Experiencing God, and Spiritual Leadership

We were only allowed to talk until 9PM. That definitely did not sit well, but I think we already knew that what we had to say would fall on deaf ears. I genuinely don't think some of the elders know where this thing is headed. Or if they do, they don't know how to stop it.

That's a brief description of what's going on here. I don't know all the details since most of it is covert. Now, it would seem that they want us to focus on "getting along" although they are the ones that caused the division. But I'm not telling you anything new.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't have know about Madison Church of Christ if I hadn't overheard someone say something about an article in the Christian Chronicle. That's when I started doing my research. You are providing a
tremendous service for all who seek the truth.

Thank you for your patience and sharing your wisdom.

Kevin

About 5 years ago my grand daughter went to ACU. It was such a thrill for me. She was grounded in the faith and I thought this would be a great thing.
I found out about 3 years later that she was attending a Community church and they were playing musical instruments etc. I asked her how she ever got started in such a thing and she told me that this is where her professors worshipped.
I have never been so disappointed and upset. I thought the ACU professors had to be members of the Church. They were also teaching that you did not have to pray in Jesus name and various other things.
Someone should examine the professors that are teaching at ACU.
I have a grandson at UTAustin. He refused to go to ACU and I am so grateful.
I am very worried about this stuff at Richland Hills Church of Christ as I went there for about 20 years.
WHAT IS HAPPENING TO CHRISTIANS??????

I used to live Merkel 15 mi. west of Abilene from 1978-1987 and ACU had false teachers in their bible dept. decades before that. The late Foy Wallace,Jr. warned the church of their diggression back in the fifties. Wake up brethern! God's people perish for lack of knowledge!

I attended th Farragut Churchof Christ in Farragut, Tenn. until about 2 years ago. About 70 of us left because of the elders attitude and also a preacher from Texas. Now I understand that an additional 30 members are very unhappy. They seem to what to join the community church concepts. They are learning from the change agents in Nashville. I dont see any hope unless they are draged from the church building . Pray for th Lords Church. I was a deacon and finance chairman.

...than I do because you were closer to the "inner circle". It just hit us one day and we didn't know where it was coming from.

I would like to hear more about the process they used. Please email me at hammkevin@msn.com

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

My 83 year old father was recently Baptized at the Fourth Ave Church of Christ in Frankin, TN. The preacher there introduced him to the Congregation and lied about his age. He is 83 years old and the Preacher said he was 75. My father was led to his decision to be babptized by this Preacher. Due to the recent division in that Church I am concerned about the Preacher's honesty. Can you tell me the name of the Preacher from Texas that you referenced in your e mail to ConcernedMembers.com/ Thank you

Im a member of the Lords church in Chino Ca. About 4 years ago I was travaling through and stoped for Bible study on a Wed. night. From the moment that I walked in I just knew that something was not right, I could not put my finger on it just something odd to me. As Bible study started I was disturbed by the lack of Bible Knowledge, being a guest I was not as out spoken as I would be at home. After Bible study I asked to speak with the Elders of the congregation they were happy to speak with me until I started asking questions about what was being taught. The preacher at the time who's name I do not remember was lling me about how we can't make judgments about people and what they beleive and thet He often had lunch with and fellowshiped with preachers of Denominations. I told them that it was sad that the Lords church was becoming just like those in the World. and left.

If we study to show our self approved, then when false teachers appear we will recognize them as what they are wolfs in sheeps clothing.

To God be the Glory.

hmm... gossip has always been a seed satan plants. It happens when a Brother, or Sister, begins giving his version of what happened, based on "educated guesses". It happens when a person begins assigning motives to the leaders God has placed in his life...motives based not on faith in God, but on doubt in one's self..and others.

Change is difficult. Ever wonder why the Hebrews began complaining so shortly after they were freed from the slavery of the Egyptians....change is difficult.

I grew up in Abilene. Attended Baker Heights CoC until the hypocrisy and insanity of small minded, immature spirituality drove my family away. We looked at many churches (all CoC, of course). We settled on Highland CoC. Now...before you role your eyes, Lynn Anderson was preaching then. And never a more conservative group of Elders were there in the CoC. But something different was happening then...Lynn Anderson was doing something new. He was worshipping God, not the Church of Christ. He was learning and teaching from the entire Bible..not just learning and teaching the Church of Christ party line. And the Elders at that time, they began to learn to do something they had never really learned to do before; trust God.

Until that time, they thought they had been trusting God; but they came to see that what they had been doing was trusting the traditions of the Church of Christ, and saying God enough times to make themselves feel justified. And they used the scripture they needed to keep all their traditional Church of Christ ducks all lined up.

But with Lynn Anderson, they had a new model; a genuine, full faith Christian; born and raised Church of Christ, and committed to its heritage and body, but still.... and a full faith Christian. They saw a new way to read the Bible... not to pull out scripture and post it next to a stand...but to read it, in big parts; find the stories. They learned to let the Bible change them into 'new creatures', instead of using verses in it like sticks, to prop up the old person.

I haven't attended at Highland in almost thirty years. My parents still do. They have been hard set by many of the changes they have seen. But they learned a long time ago, when Lynn Anderson was there, that it was God they were to trust; it was His Word they were to seek. So they have managed the changes, and believe it or not, they have found their faith, and their lives enriched by it. You see, God has a plan for us all; and it rarely matches ours. When we cling to him, change happens! And it is hard! It often looks strange and scary...even wrong at times. But we cling to him!

What do we learn when we cling to God? We learn that he never changes; that we can depend on Him when our world seems to be lost. We can find a good word, when we let him speak through us. We learn that we were focused on the wrong things when we worried, and that when we focused on Him, everything worked out fine.

I dont know what will happen at Hillcrest. I do know what wont happen; God wont abandone anyone who clings to him; and how will you know who is clinging to him? well...they wont be gossiping, that's for sure..

Peace, brother, peace.

Since the changes taking place at Hillcrest Church of Christ were being made behind closed doors, all that was available were educated guesses. My educated guesses were not just based on what I saw, they were based on what I was told by credible sources on the inside.

You can call it gossip all you like. It is no different from you making comments about Highland based on what your parents have told you.

The post that you are referring to was originally an email to the Concerned Members at Madison Church of Christ. I believe it was an honest assessment of what was taking place at Hillcrest Church of Christ at the time. I did not state as facts anything that I did not know to be a fact and they were not intimate in nature. The information I relayed was not unverified and was not from uncertain origin (that is the definition of gossip in case you were wondering).

As for the comment on motives of leaders not based on faith in God, I can only add that the "leader" mentioned in my post that aligned himself with the post-moderns was not reaffirmed by God.

Change has nothing to do with the problems we are facing. I work in an industry that changes every day. I am not allergic to change. When changes are made to conform to man and not to God, then I have a problem.

As for Lynn Anderson and the Highland Church of Christ, I'll leave that to God. Lynn Anderson's thoughts are well published and Highland Church of Christ's recent changes are not in keeping with Scripture. Only time will tell.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

I was curious to what I would read on this website. When I first learned that it even exsisted my heart dropped as if some type of new pornagraphy had been offered to man in an attempt to guide him away from God. THAT IS WHAT THIS WEBSITE IS ABOUT! There are people in Abilene, TX and even in your home church that need to hear about the love and saving grace of Jesus Christ. I know this because I live in Abilene and my wife and I are on staff at Hillcrest. I teach the kids at Hillcrest and let me tell you something YOU PEOPLE SHOULD BE ASHAMED. Many of the kids at this congregation are already caught in such a web of Christian hypocrisy and complacency. Do you know how discouraging it is to speak to a group of kids about Christ when most of them have been raised to just be "church goers". I try my best to stay in line with God's will through the guidance of His Word. The one thing I do not do is let PRIDE in myself come in and tell me that I must have things figured out about God than everyone else does. I'm am sorry if I seem harsh, but brother you need to get right, realized that ALL (even you) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and start taking your part in the Great Commision of Christ. If you would like to talk to me you may call the office for my number and I would love to meet with you as a loving Christian brother.

I don't know about Kevin, but I always get a little nervous when someone tells me they are going to Pray for me and gives me a tongue lashing in public.

Knowing Kevin, I'm sure he has forgiven you.

I was rebuked by one of the elders in a very public forum. Although my name wasn't mentioned, he knew that I knew who he was referring to.

That ex-elder no longer attends Hillcrest.

Mark 6:11

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

...and yet is not that exactly the way in which Paul handled his times of confrontation? He begins with a greeting; often in the form of expressed prayer (consider both 1 Corinthians 1:3-9 and Galatians 1:3-5). In both of these letters he then immediately goes into a very blunt "public tongue lashing" or as others refer to it, confrontation. I find it interesting that those who would post claims about errancy would be so quick to display chagrin at someone turning the lens of accountability around. Remember brothers, even at the end of the tongue lashing in 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 16:19-24), Paul never questioned the fact that these people were his family - not to be dismissed or disfellowshipped, but loved and prayed for...tongue lashing or no.

There is a difference between being admonished for something you have actually done and something that was done TO you. I was "admonished" for the latter, but that was long, long ago.

Kevin

James,

I'm thankful that members from Hillcrest are reading this website.

I began praying for the elders and the staff over a year ago when the change agents infiltrated Hillcrest Church of Christ. I pray that they will abandon this manmade scheme to "improve" upon God's plan. I pray that they will be more sensitive to the members' consciences and convictions. I pray that they will stop jumping on the bandwagon of every fad that comes along in the name of "church growth". I pray that they will stop bombarding our youth with "feel good" psychobabble. I pray that they will return to God's Word. I pray that they will FIND God's Word.

This website exists to educate the brotherhood about the changes that are taking place in the church. There is nothing pornographic about it and your implication of such is unacceptable.

I have never claimed to be without sin as you seem to imply in your post and those that know me, know that I am not a prideful person (another implication you make in your post). You, sir, don't even know me, yet you make these sweeping accusations and then offer an invitation to meet me as a "loving Christian brother"? Please accept my humble decline to your invitation.

If you would like further correspondance, you are welcome to post any questions you may have in this forum. I will be glad to answer them.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

James,

The church office doesn't have you listed as "on staff".

Kevin

I discovered from another source that James Hall is a youth intern. Sorry for the confusion.

Kevin

After calling the church office (the first time they did not know who you or your wife were!) and asking around, I finally found out that you were a youth intern. Part of being an intern is to learn. I hope that I am about to teach you something very important. One should NEVER judge another person or that persons motives. You do not know Kevin. You do not know Kevin's heart. You do not know where Kevin is in his walk with God. You do not know his personal or family situations. If Kevin happened to be a weak (HE IS NOT...THANK GOODNESS!) Christian, he might have taken your letter to heart and been turned away from the church totally. You may be new to Hillcrest (and I am giving you that benefit) and are not aware that things are not always as they appear!
Now to your mention on the youth at Hillcrest...
I have had children in the youth program there. They were raised to be neither complacent nor just church goers. Teenagers go to church and participate where they enjoy the youth minister, the other teens and the programs going on. They do not report to their home congregation (the one that their parents MAKE them go to on Sunday!) every Christian work that they perform. My son quit going to Hillcrest the first Sunday that he moved out of our home. He did quit the youth group during his Sr. year. He saw a group that was being led by someone he did not respect. Teenagers were chosen to be leaders. These were the same teens that were leading very unchristian lives outside of church. The teens certainly knew what was going on...should the leaders not be as informed? More thought should have been taken on who would lead our youth! Oh, yeah, my son has not left the church or felt defeated by the ongoing problems at Hillcrest...he is now a youth and family minister major at ACU and I am not ashamed of him! I believe that is the same major that you have. I will also warn him of the dangers in judging people.
I will also try not to judge you for being so harsh to Kevin and talking ugly about the youth. You are supposed to be there to help with problems...not to be judge the problem. I am sure that in your heart, you were just venting!

Cathy, you are doing the same thing to James as was done to Kevin. You judged the "youth leaders" the same way James judged Kevin. In some circles, they call that hypocrisy....

You don't know James, and he was not being ugly to the youth. I am a youth worker, and what he says is true about YOUTH IN GENERAL which includes the youth of our churches. GET A LIFE and parent your children, not other churches youth interns.

NAH NAH, NAH NAHHHHH NAH

This is exactly why I approve all messages, Cathy. It illustrates perfectly who we are dealing with.

Kevin

It's a shame that there ARE many teenagers in the churches of Christ, and in ALL churches, that fit to a tee the descriptions described by James in these posts. It is an ever-increasing problem that many Church of Christ people have buried their heads in the sand over the past decade or so. Folks, while we have been arguing over (and i know it's true, I still see it in bulletins from our churches) issues like mixed swimming at christian camps, dancing, etc. (important issues though they be), our youth have passed us by. They are experimenting with drugs, they are sexually active, they are contemplating suicide, they are involved in all kinds of crime. And, you know, I can't prove it, but I'd bet that the percentage of kids in the church involved in these activities is higher than we would care to admit. People, we may be winning the battle over some doctrinal issues and over some moral concerns, but I guarantee you we are LOSING the war with SIN in the lives of our young teens. They are not being taught how to recognize sin and how to avoid it. Far too many Christian teens are ending up pregnant outside of marriage, or worse, getting abortions. Many are going to bars, getting involved with drugs and gangs and doing who knows what else. Why don't parents know about it? The kids are hiding it from them and many parents are hiding their eyes from it all, hoping it will all go away. I know that much to be true because I have been a youth minister in the past. While everyone is waging war to keep the church "pure," we are losing yet another generation of young people to the world. Take a look in your churches at the age gap. Many churches have lots of people over the age of about 50 or 55. That number decreases greatly with the age group between 35 and 50 (I am 40 and part of that age group). By and large, the church of Christ lost that age group of the late 60's and early 70's. I'm no professional statistician or a prophet, but I believe that we are about to lose another generation - those in the late teens to young adulthood. Yes, let's keep the church on track biblically, but if we do that and neglect teaching our people how to recognize and deal with sin, we simply repeat the same mistakes that our parents made in the seventies, and we broaden the chasm that already exists between the gray hairs and the young ones in the church. Surely no one wants that.

James, you are exactly RIGHT!! This is Pornography, and I must say that I am hopelessly addicted. I try to fight the good fight against it, but the people that control this website, as well as the moderators (who I think are Kevin and a guy named Donnie on the other boards) seldom let anything get posted that ridicules them. However, they take ample opportunity to ridicule and put down others.

THIS IS PORNOGRAPHY....NO DOUBT. IF YOU SAY DIFFERENT, YOU NEED SERIOUS 12 STEP HELP!!!

HEHEHE

You are the only ones using ridiculing and immature terms like "HEHEHE" and "NANANA". How old are you, really? Standing up for one's beliefs is not pornography. But, who are the change agents exploiting? Our youth? The Lord judge which is profane.

Cathy, I was merely pointing out how pointless your post was by giving you the nanana. I am probably about your age. I have a child in high school. But that is beside the point. If you are really concerned about the youth, then get in the trenches and work with them as I do. You will find a completely DIFFERENT culture than you are talking about in your post. You need to lighten up a bit too.

This site is ALL about pornography. It takes the best and makes the worst out of it. It takes the love that Jesus gave us and makes it unholy. Think about that....

hehe

hehehe,

I fear you have been with children too long. Come out of the trenches and enter into a mature discussion.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin. Oh! You hurt me so! Speaking of childish responses...LOOK AT YOUR OWN! Get a real life and have some HUMOR in it.

And review your own quoted scripture. ...do not provoke your children to anger....Most of what is on this site is driven by UNHOLY anger. You (the conservative ones) are in your opinion, loosing "the fight" for what you think is "the church", when in reality you are the ones sowing discord and disharmony so much so that you become jaded to your own misery.

God calls us to be creatures filled with the Joy of the Holy Spirit. We are to be filled to OVERFLOWING so that others who are around us that do not know Jesus, or who have left Him WANT to know what we have.

THAT is the most important thing! It is not that we profess we are doing it "right" or that we have the form down to a "science" but that we have love and JOY.

There is no joy in this "mudville" of a website. Only hate and discontent that I am sure stems from some sort of personal issue related to control. I pray for you in your misery. I, on the otherhand, am joyfull and elated that Christ calls me His own and that He saw fit to rescue me from my filth as a sinner. That is THE ONLY thing that matters! This website would do "the Body of Christ" a much better service if it was focused on the JOY of Christ rather than anger and hate.

and you are glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. hehehe

I just found this site and in reviewing the letters I found out a few things:

1 it is obvious that the MANNER & SPIRIT in which the changes were implemented are as much the problem as the changes themselves.
2 whether or not you agree with either position, it apppears that Kevin does have a consistent amount of scripture to back each of his points---those who counter him(for right or wrong) don't seem to post many.
3 change is inevitable and usually painfull
4 if those who support change are truely the more open minded, and stronger brother(not saying either way at this point} they are ignoring the admonition against causing others to stumble due to their use of greater knowledge.

Having been at HIllcrest since 1995, and been present the night all of this seemed to come to a head, I will admit that until it happened I felt HIllcrest needed a jolt to wake it from its comfort zone. HOWEVER, I did not believe that what happened or how it happened was christian in purpose or effect. As one person put it " we liked it, so we did it. If that bothers you then maybe you aren't spiritually open enough. It felt great!" Openess means ALL perspectives. I and my family stayed only long enough to see if the ELDER process would turn out some scriptural leadership. We stayed because we felt it did....not because we agreed with all of them, but because all of them were willing to discuss issues with us and say things like," well, let's look that up." WIllingness to hear an opinion and then to examine it in scripture is what showed us the correctness of the choices made. We have taught here, and been involved here for nearly a decade. This is our family. Families have disagreements. Families have struggles. Overcoming them is what makes families stronger.

one final note....nowhere in the bible is a congregations spirituality, faith, or scriptural rightness linked to it's size or numeric growth. In fact nowhere is it ever said that a church ever grew because of anything it did. Some did shrink because of their actions. Growth is always stated as"and GOD added unto them, so GOD added....etc. Something to think about.

Brent

Brent,

I know you are not advocating that we simply pray for growth and do nothing.

Faith and Works go hand and hand.

In my humble opinion the best way to determine if your Church is on the right
path is by fruit. You will know them by their fruits.

I rarely quote scripture but I often serve.

If a Church wants to grow it will through it's service and value in the community.

No its not in scripture because they were just getting started in 70AD and they
also had to watch out for persecution.

In my experience size is not ALL that matters but increasing it via without the
abandenment of sound doctrine not traditions is a command.

God Bless,

GC

Several years ago, when I first saw Lynn Anderson in action at Highland Church, the closest thing thing it reminded me of was "TV evangelism". Anderson even had a following like a TV preacher. Do we follow Jesus, or we are just sub-followers who are designated to follow some super discipline, who is an elite being with some special knowledge, special teaching, special authority, or special spirituality that we don't have? Wasn't this one of the errors of Gnosticism? Doesn't Gnosticism mean "secret" or "special" knowledge? After Anderson, then came the money. Just a few years ago, the elders at Highland just sat back when Herald of Truth took advantage of a sick, old lady. The Herald Of Truth got her to sign over her considerable money and financial assets and in exchange, promised to act as her guardian and to care for her for the rest of her life. Then Herald of Truth abandoned her. This made national news when reporters showed the deplorable, filthy conditions she was living in, with no one taking care of her, and no one seeing about her. She was living in terrible poverty, because she no longer had any money to care for herself. A relative got involved, and asked Herald of Truth to return the elderly lady's money, since they had not abided by their legal agreement to care for her. Herald of Truth refused, and denied that they had any responsibility for her. It went to court, the elderly lady got her money back, and the reputation of the whole Church of Christ suffered because of it, not just Herald of Truth and the Highland church and ACU. The elders of Highland were in charge of overseeing the Herald of Truth, and they let this happen. Is this how the Lord "works" in the congregations to spread his WORD? NO. Is this the result of His Holy Spirit? NO. Wasn't this the true result of all that super-spirituality Highland, Herald of Truth, and Anderson were supposed to have? Didn't Highland and Herald of Truth eventually show their true stripes? Peace, brother, peace? Jesus didn't say we would know them by their fine words or hype, He said we would know them by their Fruits (RESULTS of their work). And it is the change agents who end up breaking up congregations when they do their deeds, congregations that were formerly stable and reasonably "peaceful". Change agents break down congregations and introduce things that cause conflicts, divisions, and arguments that didn't exist before. Doesn't this alone tell you who they are, and what is behind it, let alone the content of their teaching? It is time that we look at the results, when change agents take over. Remember that we are living in the age of advertising. AND I wouldn't take up ACU's offer to provide on-campus housing for the elderly to live out their retirement years in exchange for their money. The elderly might find that they gave ACU their money and didn't get much in return.

Since I have been doing some intial involvement in sales of annuitys as charitable gifts here at our insurance agency(check with an agent you trust--they are GREAT for both the donor and recieptient)I had heard this story and decided to check it out. First off, Herald of Truth is a separate entity from Highland. They have worked very closely together as Highland was the congregation that created this ministry, but they are separate! The elders at Highland have little or no say in the workings of HOT.
Secondly, the woman in question was NEVER promised nor did she ever have expectation of care to be provided by HOT. Gift annuitys do not work that way, never have, never will. There is a way to set up an interest return payment, but this is NOT a program in which an individual is recieving care. Thirdly, the family members who tried to sue HOT were NOT sueing on her behalf. They were sueing in an attempt to void her will on the basis of mental imcompetence so that they might get control of her money. One of the main reasons she donated her funds was her desire that NONE of her family have access to her estate---she felt they were undeserving of anything she had saved. She felt this way due to their terrbile treatment of her over the years. HOT did not return the money because they were following HER wishes. By the way she was found to be of very sound mind and the court upheld her decision.
I am far from a Highland fan. I worked for 18 months with an organization who's clients were members there. We tooked them on alternating weekends. We were and continue to be members at Hillcrest, and were extremely uncomfortable...no, I'll just say it...scared by some of the things we saw there. I say that so you will know that I am not just blanketly defending Highland. I most certainly am not! However, it is very important to me that if we critcized a congregation for it's actions, we had better be sure we have the facts--not the rumors--straight.

Brent

I sometimes wish that all members at Hillcrest would attend one service at Highland to see where we will be in a few years.

I have been told that major changes to rectify the damage done have been made at Hillcrest, but I don't see it. Do you? Yes, we have a different preacher, but has anything else changed?

Two huge banners are still hanging on the wall declaring Hillcrest's Mission Statement. We still have the big screen and the Powerpoint presentations (which studies have shown has no effect on students' learning). There is still an element that continues to clap during certain songs. At least two of those "clapping" songs were sung during the morning service on the weekend of ACU's homecoming. During this same morning service "You are Beautiful (I Stand in Awe)" was sung, and as if on cue, most people stood when they started the chorus. There was singing during the Communion (something that doesn't really bother me, but I know is an area of contention for others). In fact, one couple informed me that that was one reason they would not be back to Hillcrest. It does bother me, however, when we are asked to meditate and then they sing while we are supposed to be meditating.

One good thing that I have noticed is that there is more Scripture being used in the Sermons. For that I am very thankful.

I guess what I am trying to convey to you is that I still believe that these seemingly small changes will lead Hillcrest down the path that Highland has chosen.

What are your thoughts?

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin,
I am sadden once again at the shallow dogmatic and unchristian at bretheren who would leave a congregation over a scriptureal non-issue such as singing during cummunion. Why can't people stay and defend their position if it's so right! These are the bretheren who are the reason the church is sliding towards liberalism. If you boldly proclaim the truth the "charisma-crowd" can't defeat you. If you pull the little 2 yr old style tantrum and "take my gtoys and go home!", you have given them the victory they nevr had to fight for! This is espeasically true when you leave over something you can't even defend with scripture! Tradition is important. Tradition has it's purpose. Tradition is NOT the gospel.
I agree with you that it would be good for people to visit other congregation occqasionally to see what is going on there. We might have less gossip and more real impact. Too many people are complaining about things they have heard second hand, and too few are upset about things they are unaware of. I am pleased that every Elder we placed this time has been willing to look at scripture when I have had a question....you know that was not always the case! I think maybe your concern about the "repairs" may be premature. Quickly, shallow judgement got us into this mess, so I think it is extremely appropriate that the leadership take a slow,deliberate, carefully considered approach to the fix. Trying to take the time to work with Chris to come to an acceptable position was just what the scripture tells us to do with a brother we think is in error. That he was the preacher makes this doubly important. When they had exhausted all possiblity of repair, they let him go in a loving manner---preventing what could have been an extremely ugly situation. Getting rid of the banners would be fine with me, but it's not going to keep anyone from heaven any more than it brought anyone in. As I have stated before, the powerpopint doesn't bother me, it was the way it was presented that bothered me.(fyi..i've seen several studies saying it has either a positive or, at worst, nuetral effect on learning, and several elderly members have since old me that it is good to be able to see the words again---song books were toheavy for them and too small a print). Should it go? Let's make sure we are not throwing out the baby with the bath water. Plastic communion cups, sunday school, and even songbooks were new tools at some point!
The clapping can be annoying to me too, but I can't seem to find a scripture against it. Just like the "lemming-style" standing during 'You are Beautiful' I simply do not join in. Th problem really isn't these actions---it is when you a forced to take part in them that they truely become falsse doctrine. When I am told I am not "spiritual enough" because I do not clap...THEN I have a problem. Only when we have scriptural justification for our complaint should we begin to confront those issues.

Just my opinion,
Brent

p.s. I'm glad to report that MANY people have noticed, and appreciated, the return to the use of scripture from the pulpit!

The couple that told me they would not be back were only visiting Hillcrest, they were not members of the congregation.

The problem I have with the banners is that they serve as a constant reminder to me of the insensitive way changes were being forced upon us. Do you know where the banners came from or who paid for them or who gave permission for them to be hung in the first place? No one I know does either. Yet, there they still hang. I never have understood the need for a mission statement anyway. Isn't the Bible enough?

As far as the PowerPoint is concerned, is it too much to ask for the words on the screen to match the words in the songbook? Twice this past Sunday there were differences. One of the songs had a completely different second verse.

The problem with clapping is that it is not authorized in worship. If this were an infrequent occurence, I would be more tolerant; however, when they set the mood of the whole service, I have a problem. It is known well ahead of time what will happen when these songs are chosen. Why do they insist on including them? The Bible doesn't say I can't use an airhorn either, but I dare say I would be allowed to use one more than once before I would be asked to leave. Extreme example, maybe, but same principle.

Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.

Psa 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him.

Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


I am told often what are not believed to be salvation issues. For my edification, perhaps we should study and discuss what salvation issues are.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Hello Ken,

I can only say it's happening in New Jersey too.(see my addition to the "more churches" about Bethel Baptist in Cherry Hill, NJ for more info).I will say I leafed through the "Experiencing God" book in the lobby of our church (instead of listening to the service, which lacks the meat of the Word these days since our poor deceived pastor returned from Saddleback a year ago).The book is very subtle in that it denied the knowledge of God through His written Word, and instead tries to substitute "experiences" as though THEY were more trustworthy! We all know from Genesis that "the imagination of man is only evil continously, so while these deluded brethren will experience SOMETHING, the source of it will be any thing but holy! Not to mention the COVENANT at the end of the book.Not good at all!
I was hard pressed to leave - when the pastor came back from being Saddleback - indoctrinated, by his second "sermon", I was extremely upset with the turn his speach took. He started using words like "process", and "self esteem", and generally sounded like he was going to start a 12 step program to Christ.I wrote him a VERY scathing (un-Christian in tone) letter accusing him of being under a satanic influence.Little did I know I was right! It was mean in tone, and I later apologized and he accepted so I stayed.He then went back to Biblical exposition, and things looked better.But after about a year, stuff started to change again - surveys, less Biblical teaching (and they advocate the NIV, which is an abomination anyway), and finally the throwing out of some very distinguished members (see articles on dialectical materialism - it's exactly what is happening, but I'm not sure even the ones doing it understand what they are really getting into)I STILL didn't get it.But after I heard the Christmas music arrangements (a lot of rock beats, which I refuse to perform - I was a first soprano and soloist, which is another problem in the making), I knew I would have to do something.I asked God for an answer as to what was really going on, and He lead me in some amazing ways to the truth, and then to this website.
There is nothing you can do at your church but leave it.Be reviled of men and rejoice, for your reward will be great in heaven!
The Lord led us the very next weekend to a wonderful church where they know of this evil and avoid it totally.They also preach only from the KJV.They are out there - find one.In fact, ask Him to find one for you! And then do what this Jew who is in love with Jesus did - GET OUT!
"Come out of her, my people, lest ye be partakers of her plagues".
He isn't kidding.He holds us resposible to KNOW all the things He told us! (that's why "my people" have been in such hot water for so many millenia!).
As you may have guessed, I care very little about peer pressure or I wouldn't be following Him.So leap into His arms and get out before you miss the Big Event, should it take place in our lifetimes.He only PROMISES the Rapture to the church of Philadelphia.There may be others who get to go, but those who are aware of evil and do not choose to depart from it while there is still time ("while today is still called today") may have to remain.So leave the evil - while today IS still called today!
God bless you in your decision.
In Christ,
Jaymie Rossi

Brother Jaymie:
It is refreshing to read your post, it sound as if we have fought the same battles, just in different places. Welcome aboard. You seem to be carrying some of your Baptist luggage with you about the timing of the "Rapture", but as the Holy Spirit continues to teach you Scripture you see the error and the cost of this Baptist feel good lie.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

To my surprise and relief, it was not a heavily moderated meeting. There was no agenda. It was left
open for anyone to talk about anything they wished.

One member expressed his opinion that the church is made up of members with very diverse views.

I asked everyone if we all agreed that the Bible was the inerrent Word of God. Everyone agreed. So I brought up the fact that I had issues with the book "Experiencing God". I asked how many had read the book. Only two had(there were about 30 in attendance). I began by stating that the book:

1. Promotes the notion that God speaks to us in other ways besides the Bible.
2. Promotes teaching in contradiciton to the Bible in respect to miracles and the Gospel.
3. Promotes neo-orthodox theology (Scripture may become the Word of God if the reader has an experience with a passage).
4. Promotes a low view of Jesus Christ.
5. Scripture is misinterpreted and misapplied.

I also read many quotes from the book supporting my claims.

The moderator asked why I felt it necessary to mention this book. I stated that this was being used in a Bible study for women on Wednesday nights. He asked where. I said here at this church. He asked who was teaching it and I told him who. (I believe he asked these questions to give validity to my remarks. He was helping me give relevance to my statements.)

One member (who I now consider "the opposition") stated that I could not know what is being taught in that class if I wasn't attending the class. I stated that this is what is in the workbook and I didn't think I would be allowed in the class since it was a women's class. These are direct quotes from the book. He said anyone can make anything sound bad if taken out of context and by picking out certain passages the way I did. I stated that the whole book was like this. His wife spoke up and said that she had been in Bible studies with these two women before and that they would decide what parts of the book that they believed and what parts they did not believe.
She stated that there are good parts to the book and they didn't have to agree with all of it.

I stated that this was the danger with a book like this. There are truths and there are lies and it was difficult to discern between the two especially if the class includes members new to the faith that didn't know Scripture enough to distinguish between fact and fiction. My wife stated that this was the foundation of the church, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. This book questions the deity of Christ which shakes the very foundation of the church.

Another member asked what the criteria for Bible study was. Were there things that could be taught and things that couldn't? What things could not be taught? I stated that I would think that you wouldn't want to teach heresy (in hindsight, I don't believe I should have made such a bold statement. Then again, maybe I should have.). I was told that the two women teaching the class on "Experiencing God" were godly women and I
can be assured that they are not teaching heresy! I simply stated that everyone should read this book and decide for themselves. I told them it was in their local library.

There was much discussion about the Education Dept. needing supervision of the elders. There was little discussion about the change in worship (handclapping songs, powerpoint presentation, etc.). I didn't want to monopolize the discussion so I didn't bring up any new issues.

There was discussion about channels of communication between the elders and the congregation. Several were vocal in their support for the elders and the work they were doing.

Several members stated that they were thankful that we could get together and discuss issues like this. They may not always agree, but we can only grow when we discuss them.

The moderator stated that maybe the elders needed to get the pulse of the congregation on the changes to the worship service (we only have one service on Sunday morning). Possibly by way of a survey. He wants to know if these changes are being made to appease a small percentage of members.

There were two elders in the meeting and both thanked me for bringing this issue ("Experiencing God") before them. I sincerely believe that they didn't realize this was being taught in one of our classes (even though it was announced in the bulletin on Sunday morning). In all fairness, they had not read the book yet. I will follow up with an email to all elders with my notes on this book. Time will tell if they are open to more discussion. I believe God answered our prayers tonight. I truly believe some eyes were opened and that truth will prevail.

As I have stated before to Bobby Johnson, I believe there is one dominant elder with change on his agenda. He is a professor at a christian college and is the one pushing this change. There are other elders that agree with his philosophy, but they don't push it. I pray that this exchange tonite will open up opportunities for more discussion.

Keep us in your prayers as you are in ours,

Kevin

Kevin, so you have a problem believing that the WORD (Jesus) could possibly speak to a person without referencing Scripture. Did the Father speak to Jesus only through Scripture? Is Jesus our example on how to live? Does the Bible serve as a testimony that God spoke directly to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Sarai, Hagar, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Samuel, Saul, David, Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jonah,just to name a few from the Old Testament? Or how 'bout after the ascension of Jesus, direct words to Peter, John, Agabus, Paul...I think a pattern in Scripture emerges that our God likes to talk to his children. Yes it is true that Scripture comes from God, in fact the main reason I believe God can and does speak directly to his children is because of the numerous teachings in the Bible ie. "my sheep will hear my voice" and all the examples of this very thing happening. In fact, I suggest that God dealing directly with his people from the inside out IS the gospel OF Jesus. Did you realize that even before the disciples understood anything about Christ's death, burial, resurrection and atonement for sins they were preaching the gospel? Jesus stated that he was sent to preach the gospel (Luke 4:43)while not discussing his death to the crowds at that point. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach this same gospel (Matthew 10:7). Jesus states in multiple passages that he had come to preach the gospel of the kingdom. I suggest to you that the kingdom being made available to all people from within their inmost being is the good news or gospel that Jesus came to announce to humanity. This is the gospel of Christ. Now granted the good news of how we enter the kingdom, the atoning blood of Jesus is also good news and is referred to in Scripture, primarily by Paul as gospel. They are both good news and I am not suggesting two gospels but rather the good news about what Jesus has done for us versus what Jesus said was good news. In Matthew 24 Jesus seems to focus attention on the good news of the kingdom, by saying that this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world before the end comes. So.... what I am trying to say is that the kingdom is within us (Luke 17:21), is to be sought first (Matthew 6:33), and cannot even be seen unless you are born again (John 3:3). Putting these together Jesus teaches that in all matters we are to first seek a reality (namely his kingdom) that is available to us from within that is spiritually discerned by people who have had a second birth (born again). What we need from God, from guidance, to faith, to comfort, to love... is available to us directly from the source. Obviously, if we are getting it from the true source it will not contradict Scripture. However if Jesus does not deal directly with you "And he walks with me and he talks with me... lovely hymn" I suggest that you do not know him, but rather only know ABOUT him. How can you know someone who has never communicated directly to you? I have read books about and by Abe Lincoln but I cannot say I know him. I can say I know Jesus. Do you?
Paul

Paul,
Let me first commend you for using scripture as a defense of your position. It shows your desire[as is mine] is to true to God in your beliefs. It is also MUCH more likely to be respected and listened to than those who start out with"na-na-na" or "he-he". I do have a few points to discuss with you about your response, though. The concept that the gospel of Christ comes from the dealings inside a person seems to conflict with what I read in the scripture. You said, "even before the disciples understood anything.....they were preachiong the gospel."Unfortunately, this is not what the scripture says at all. The disciples were sent out to the JEWS AND JEWS ONLY[matt 10:5] and not to preach the "new covenant" but "the Kingdom of Heaven is NEAR"[matt 10:7] They were in fact only reiterating the prophecies of the Old Testament to those who should have already known it. This was something that is repeatedly done during the OT. Besides, how could they have taught salvation through the blood of Christ when he had yet to be sacrificed? In fact your own reference[luke 4:43]is of Jesus saying he was sent to speak in the synagogues[v.44] The early christians were commended for "searching the scriptures daily" to see the truth of what was being taught.[acts 17:11] You also might want to look at several translations before hanging an arguement on a single word. In the NIV Luke 17:21.."the kingdom of God is within you" is also translated "among you". This is an important diferrence because it shows more clearly that Christ was refering to himself as the kingdom, not the spiritual kingdom. Let me take this even a step further. Far from coming from inside, scripture repeatedly tells us that God wants us to let him in. If he is already there how can we let him in? Man's heart is not clean in it's natural state.{mark 7:23 all these evils come from inside and make a man unclean}You might also want to look a little more closely at Christ as opposed to the Holy Spirit. The holy spirit is the one who aids us[romans8:26 In the same way the Spirit HELPS us in our weakness], it guides us but we are still resposible and in charge of our own decisions/actions. Our free will allows us to open our hearts to the message of the Lord, but he never forces us to think or feel anything. The heart of the Ethiopian Eunoch was obviously open and willing, but Phillip's instruction---not some inner feeling---helped him understand what to do for salvation. As I said before, your definition of "knowing" Jesus seems to be flawed in that we do not "experience Christ" in our daily lives, we are guided by the Holy Spirit[maybe this is what you meant to sya instead of Jesus]We do not communicate directly with Christ but THROUGH him pray to God. Scripture promises suffering and persecution for belivers, NEVER are we promised happy-happy joy-joy warm fuzzies.

That said......I do agree that it is possible that the church has dogmatically avoided more open acceptance of the work done by the Holy Spirit in our lives. Please let me know what you think about what I have said here. If I am wrong, I want to know.

Brent

Thanks for your response. Let me ponder a while. I have three children with another one scheduled to arrive soon so ponder time has lately been squeezed. Talk to you later. Paul

Brent, thanks for your thought provoking questions. I will attempt to adress your questions and then ask you a few to determine if we possible have common ground before assuming something else.

You asked how could Christ and his disciples be preaching the gospel of "salvation through the blood of Christ when he had yet to be sacrificed"? You are right and that is my point. They weren't preaching that particular message yet, however what they were preaching was a message that Jesus stated was the gospel. Jesus stated that the reason he was sent was to go from town to town and preach the good news or gospel of the kingdom (Luke 4:43, Mat. 4:23, 9:35, Luke 8:1, ...) Jesus, as he continued to share this good news or gospel of the kingdom jumped forward to the time near the end and stated that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then the end shall come." Matthew 24:14, demonstrating the continuity between the gospel as he himself was declaring it and how it would be declared near the end of time. I agree with you that this message was initially directed toward the Jews but one day would be "preached in all the world." So it is clear in Scripture that Jesus himself and his followers (before they understood the atonement) WERE preaching a message that Jesus referred to as the gospel.

You made a good point about the different translations of "within" or "among" you in Luke 17:21. It does make a rather profound difference in the message of the verse depending on which word is used. What I found in researching the verse is there is quite a bit a respected, mainstream scholarship on both sides of this translation difference. KJV, NIV state "within", RSV states "in the midst", New English states "among". I also looked at several commentaries and found arguments for both translations. So... I believe the best thing to do in situations like this is to weigh in with other scriptures that speak to the topic and see which way the "weight" of Scripture tips the scale. The most significant clarifying teaching in Scripture concerning this issue, in my opinion, is the indwelling of man by God himself, man being the new temple of God, or as Paul stated, "Christ liveth in me" Gal. 2:20. The area around Kings in which their will is obeyed is their kingdom. Since our King, though he indwells all of creation, in some special way has chosen to live inside us, when we submit to his will the kingdom is within us emanating from the King himself. As we share our lives with the "called out" ones the inward reign of the King manifests "amongst us", the Body of Christ. So again, "within" and "amongst" seem to both have particular application.

Regarding your question of us having to let God in to our heart as opposed to Him already being there, I totally agree with your statement. He knocks, but we must open the door. Sorry, I must have been unclear in describing my belief in this area.

Regarding your question differentiating between the work of the Spirit in our lives versus Jesus, I say this. I do not deny a differentiating of their work in our lives but at the same time I believe it may be difficult to distinguish the difference due to the mystery of the Godhead and the awesome workings of God. For example, Jesus did teach that he must leave so another, the Spirit of Truth could come. But he also stated that he and his Father would come live with us, John 14:23, That his sheep would hear his voice and the above noted Paul's statement of Christ living in him. Also Jesus taught in John 16:14 that the Spirit would only show us what he has received from Jesus and the Father. So, when the Spirit works in ones life is it the Spirit, the Son or the Father? I think the answer is-YES! More could be said but I think that expresses the heart of the issue.

As far as your statement of us not "experiencing Christ", I think you were distinguishing that the messenger is the Holy Spirit to which I agree, but as stated above, the Spirit is only sharing what Jesus and the Father have given him so in essence, we are experiencing Christ through the Spirit (in a manner akin to which which Moses "experienced God" through an angel appearing in a bush, Ex. 3).

Also, you stated that we do not communicate directly with Christ but THROUGH him pray to God. I agree with the second part of your statement but not the first. Christ communicates directly to me THROUGH the Spirit.
I do not know how one could be a disciple (literally a student) of Christ if Christ does not directly communicate with them. If he doesn't communicate with us I guess we could be disciples of his teachings but not disciples of Him personally.

I hoped I addressed your questions, now a few for you.
Do you beleive that the Spirt communicates directly with you? For example, does He "lay" particular needs on your heart? Scripture is clear in teaching us to love our neighbor, but do you believe that the Spirit gives specific directions to which neighbor and to which need to serve? Does the Spirit "prompt" you to a particular action or convict you about a particular sin in your life?

Talk to you later, Paul

I really enjoyed reading your response to my post....and I promise I will give you an extended reply as soon as I get free enough to give it the timew it deserves. Families sure do take a big(but fun) chunk of the day don't they?
Brent

Paul,

Sorry to take so long to respond, but life is hectic even when you don't have children in the home.

Could you please give me references in Scripture where God speaks directly to those you mentioned?

In reference to "my sheep will hear my voice", I offer the following:

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto
him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou
be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed
not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they
bear witness of me.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my
sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall
never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them
out of my hand.

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than
all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of
my Father's hand." John 10:24-29

The key to learning what "My sheep hear my voice" means can be found in verse 6.

"This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they
understood not what things they were which he
spake unto them."

"My sheep hear my voice" is a figure of speech. I suggest to you that it means to hear the message of salvation. These verses say that you hear his voice BEFORE you are saved. They do not say that you must be saved and have a personal relationship with God before you can hear his voice. Isn't that the same line the faith healers use when they fail to heal someone? "You're not healed because you don't have enough faith." That is false teaching.

Your statement: "What we need from God, from guidance, to faith, to comfort, to love... is available to us directly from the source. Obviously, if we are getting it from the true source it will not contradict Scripture" sounds like Vineyard theology.

"I also said that I believed in words of knowledge and that God can and does give personal words of direction to believers today that cannot be found in the Bible. I do not believe that he gives direction that contradicts the Bible, but direction that cannot be found in the Bible." Jack Deere, Vineyard Position Paper #2

Here is a link to the paper:

http://www.vineyardusa.org/publications/position_papers/briefing12.htm

This is the neo-orthodox view that I mentioned when discussing "Experiencing God". This theology has its roots in the writings of Karl Barth. Barth taught that Jesus was the Word of God and that the Bible was just a WITNESS to the Word. He taught that the Bible did not become the Word of God unless God spoke directly to us through it. This belief also means that a book, a magazine, a newspaper, a church bulletin, a poem, a song, a hunch, a dream, a feeling, etc., can all become the Word of God if God speaks to us through them. Is this what you believe?

If you could reference Chapter and Verse in Scripture that supports your position, I will gladly study them.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Hello Kevin. One question. When Jesus walked this earth as a man, was Scripture his only way to hear his Father?

Here's the references you requested. Most of these people received multiple messages (some sort of supernatural communication- direct words, angelic messengers, visions, spirit guided prophetic utterances, etc.)however, I am including just one reference from each as an example.

Adam- Gen. 3:9
Noah- Gen. 6:13
Abraham- Gen. 15:1
Sarai- Gen.18:15
Hagar- Gen.16:9
Jacob- Gen. 32:24-30
Joseph- Gen. 40:8, 41:16 (acknowledged God as source of dream interpretations)
Moses- Ex. 3:4
Aaron- Ex. 4:27
Samuel- 1 Sam. 3:4
Saul- 1 Sam. 10:10
David- 2 Sam. 5:19
Job- Job 38,39,most of 40,41
Isaiah- Isaiah 7:3
Jeremiah- Jer. 11:1
Jonah- Jonah 3:1-2
Peter- Acts 10:13
John- Rev. 1:10-11
Agabus- Acts 11:28
Paul- Acts 27:23-24

This list was off the top of my head and is not exhaustive. However it will suffice because this particular list serves as a testimony to God sending direct messages to people in all covenantal periods and in times of "pre-Scripture" and during times when Scripture was established and available.

Paul

Paul,
Deepest apology for the extreme delay in responding to your earlier reply, but things have been hectic! So....here goesa VERY brief shot-gun approach to a couple of things.
First, yes I do believe the spirit can and does put things on my mind and heart. Whether or not I listen or act on what it places there is up to me. Never is this a situation where anything other than my own free will decides my final action, and never is this a contradiction to scripture. In other words, the spirit gently reminds me of a current opportunity to act upon those things that my study should have already made clear to me. As an imperfect[just ask my wife! ha-ah] human I tend to lose focus on those things which are important. The spirit nudges me gently as if to say,"hey..did you miss this or are you just ignoring it". I know this is not the way you might hear a gifted preacher explain the concept, but it is the best way I can explain the way I "experience" the holy spirit. As for "experiencing Christ", thanks for your clarificattion. Seems we were mostly in a semantic misunderstanding and actually agree on this point. Unfortunately, the way a person says something can be more confusing than what they say. My only difference with you statement can be best summed up by saying that I have been a student of the constituion, but never met Jefferson. My wife has been a student of Adlerian psychology and Alfred Adler died before she ever started her masters. Maybe this is semnatics too, but I think understanding the difference is important.
As for your examples of directly speaking with God/Christ, all of those not under the Old Law had been in the phsyical presence of Christ. These are also the only ones ever capable of "miracles". Obviously, the physical presence of Christ was and extrodinary difference maker!
By the way, using your own thoughts from earlier, Christ didn't recieve instruction from God only through scripture.....because even as a man he was part OF God. In a way he was speaking to himself.
Can't wait to hear your responses. This constant challenging of why I believe and do what I do is an outstanding way to improve my own strength of faith. It may even show me something I have been wrong about so that I can correct an error in my actions.

take care,
Brent

Brent,

I agree with your explanation of how Spirit works in the life of a believer. His role is comfort and counsel. I find myself reacting just like you. It's all my choice how I choose to act. Spirit promts my spirit with opportunities to serve Him. I pray for wisdom to understand what opportunity looks like. His Word is my filter to grow in understanding and better discern movement in Spirit. There is never a contradiction between Spirit and Word. When there appears to be difference is when my spirit is fed as I hunger and thirst after righteousness. He always opens the eyes of my heart and mind with the Truth.

blessings as you continue your walk with Him. If I don't see you here in this life, I'll see you in heaven.

chuck
<")))><

Hello Brent, thanks for the response. I am trying to process what you wrote and make sure I understand exactly what you mean. You made the statement that you believe the Holy Spirit can place things on your heart and mind while not violating the principles contained in Scripture (I agree). This statement seems to suggest that you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to people on any subject He feels needed, whether they are "Biblical" topics or not while never violating Scripture. However later on in your letter you stated that the Holy Spirit shows you things that you should have seen in your study, which to me implies His communication is not only limited to maintaining Scriptural principles but also to biblical topics. Please let me know if either of these accurately describe your belief? Thanks for allowing me to question you. Paul

Paul,
JUst now found this response, so sorry for the delay getting back to you! I guess the easiest way to respond is by saying that whatever I do(in word or in deed----everbody hum along now!ha-ha)I do all in the name of the Lord....or at least try to. So to answer you, I don't see a contradiction in saying the spirit can nudge me toward something, because EVERYTHING is impacted by what I study in the word. Does that make it more clear?

Brent

Well, that sounds good. I don't agree with all you stated in previous posts but... As long as you believe the "Spirit of truth" can guide you into "all truth" (John 16:13) and the anointing that lives in you can teach you (1 John 2:27)... you don't need me trying to teach you anything. Paul

So Paul....I now hear you saying that you understand and accept the position that the Holy Spirit DOES NOT teach a believer, but redirects or reminds them of those things which they find in the scriptures? That's not what I originally understood you to be saying.

just wondering,
Brent

Hello Brent. I am not sure how you heard that. It appears to me that John 16:13(quoted above) clearly indicates that the Spirit DOES teach (all truth) and I do not read anything about Him being limited to Biblical topics. So, to answer your question, I believe the Spirit most definately may remind me of something I have read in the Bible but he is equally capable of reminding me of other things I have read, or said or done or seen etc... or even of things yet to come(again in John 16:13) that is,leading me into all truth.

The Spirit is able to speak on topics completely not found in scripture without violating any principles in scripture. Do you see that? An analogy may be helpful. You and I are having a discussion over the internet. To this point we have mentioned nothing about US law indicating what is legal or illegal in regards to the internet. However we have not violated any principles found in the US law. So we have not been acting "apart" from US law yet we have not been talking about it. In a similar manner the Spirit may communicate with us on specific topics that cannot be found in chapter and verse yet He will not violate a principle found in chapter and verse.

Many "Bible based" believer's reject the idea of God's current, real time communication because they feel it would compete or lessen the authority of the Bible. The irony of this "Bible based" belief is that it is not in the Bible.

Paul

Please excuse my intrusion into this thread but I want to address the following statement you made in the preceeding post:

"Many "Bible based" believer's reject the idea of God's current, real time communication because they feel it would compete or lessen the authority of the Bible."

I absolutely reject the idea of "current, real-time communication from God" - apart from the Bible. I do not reject the idea of the operation of the Holy Spirit in ways we cannot understand, such as the intercession He provides for believers when they pray. One question for those who do believe in the "current, real-time communication with God" is; if this is true - why is there so much division???? Is God the God of confusion? Not so, according to I Corinthians 14:33. Our sole source of authority can only be the Bible, otherwise, "everyone will do what is right in their own eyes" and will justify their actions by some warm, fuzzy feeling attributed to the operation of the Holy Spirit. True unity can only be attained through obedience to God's word, not man's feelings.

Mark Waggoner

Mark. Your intrusion is welcomed. You expressed your opinions clearly. Can you provide scriptural basis for them? Paul

Mark, you stated, "I absolutely reject the idea of 'current, real-time communication from God' ". I was just wondering from what chapter and verse in the Bible you base this belief on. Paul.

I asked the question, which did not get answered; "that if the Holy Spirit does communicate directly with man today, why is there so much division?" I've also read over some of the prior posts concerning modern day, direct intervention of the Holy Spirit in order to understand just what is being debated here. Let's look at the Scriptures to examine part of the nature of the Holy Spirit.

First of all, if one believes in modern day, direct communication with the Holy Spirit, one must also believe in modern day miracles. These signs were manifestations of the Holy Spirit in order to confirm or authenticate what was being taught (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:3-4). The Corinthians were engaged in childish arguments over which signs were superior. Paul addressed this but also tells us that these miraculous signs would go away when the perfect comes (I Corinthians 13:8 + 10). The "perfect" was the complete revelation of God, which was still unfolding at that time. Once the revelation to man from God was complete, the need for signs was made obsolete. The Holy Spirit guided the apostles into all truth (John 16:3) in a miraculous manner and guides us into all truth by the written word. God's word is final and we do not require the Holy Spirit to reveal anything further.

Some attempts have been made to circumvent the Scriptures by claiming modern day Holy Spirit inspiration. This is nothing more than a self-deluding influence (II Thessalonians 2:11-12) that "allows" one to "do what is right in his own eyes". When heart takes over from the head and subjectivity takes priority over Scripture, anything is possible! Others seek to evade all personal responsibility while searching for emotional security. We are told to "hold fast the word" (Philippians 2:16) and "follow the pattern" (Philippians 3:17). How can one "do all in the name (authority) of the Lord" (Colossians 3:17) without knowing what is revealed in scripture? Jesus says that we can "know the truth" (John 8:32) and that God's word is "truth" (John 17:17). The Holy Spirit revealed this to all men, including us. He did this directly to the apostles and through the written word to all who followed that generation.

I hope that this will be of help in your study. Peter tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient for "all things pertaining to life and Godliness". This is a key verse to remember, not only concerning scriptural authority, but in how the Holy Spirit works through us today. If we follow His inspired word today, in religious matters or non-religious situations, is He not working through us?

Mark Waggoner

Mark-I understand what you believe because I once believed the same. I will attempt to expose the weaknesses in the conclusions you have made regarding the passages in your post.

First, let me address your question regarding divisions among believers. You seem to have an assertion couched in your question that division proves that God no longer speaks directly to men and that unity is impossible unless God remains silent and lets what he said 2000 years ago stand alone. First of all, I believe God knows how to communicate with men then and now in ways that create and maintain unity. Jesus taught of a unity that comes when different groups of people listened to the same VOICE, John 10:16. Secondly, there are multiple causes of division and they originate in many camps, those that believe in God's current, speaking voice and those that do not. For example, we know of "pentecostal types" who divide themselves over manifestations of gifts as well as "fundamentalist types" who divide themselves over hand clapping and "order of worship". Division is a frequent visitor in both; therefore, it is not logically sound to suggest it is limited to those who believe in current "rhema" of God. Additionally, let's just say for the sake of discussion that God does still directly communicate with men; well...division could be caused by people such as yourself who are not listening due to doctrinal positions. Lastly, God: perfect, us: not. He may speak perfectly but we do not hear perfectly; boom: problems, possibly division-yet it does not rule out direct messages.

Regarding modern day miracles. Your assumption is that they were to affirm the message; once the message affirmed, bye-bye miracles. Let's analyze your logic. A message was given (true); miracles performed (true); the miracles authenticated the message (true); the only purpose for miracles is to authenticate messages (not found in text, false). Did you see it? The last step in your thought process is not supported in Scripture. You are attempting to make a positive statement from a standpoint of Scriptural silence. You have violated a belief held by many within the church of Christ that one is to remain silent where Scripture is silent. A correct logical assumption to learn from these historical events is that when God wants to get something done, miracles are an option for Him. Your logic in a different setting: A man comes from a foreign land and has never seen or heard of pick-up trucks. I tell him that pick-ups exist and can be used to move furniture. I then leave and return driving my pick-up and in view of the foreign man load my truck with furniture and drive away. This foreigner now analyzes the events with your logic: I believe pick-ups exist (true); I believe pick-ups can be used to move furniture (true); What I observed authenticated the message (true); I believe that pick-ups can only be used to move furniture (false). I hope you see the flaw in the logic. Furthermore, the Bible reveals other motives, purposes for miracles, one example = compassion, Matthew 14:14. Lastly, your assumption suggests that first century unbelievers needed authenticating miracles whereas modern day ones do not.

Regarding your assumption that the "perfection" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13 is the completion or canonization of Scripture,I invite you to consider the following. If it is true that canonization of Scripture is the "perfection" spoken of, then the following is true:
-your and my understanding in the truths of God far exceed that of the apostle Paul's. In fact, our understanding compared to his would be "face-to-face", his a "poor reflection"; ours "fully" even to the degree that God (implied) knows us, his "in part". The apostle Paul's understanding, whom God used to pen one third of the New Testament, is "childish" compared to our "as a man" understanding. Are you willing to compare yourself like that to the apostle Paul? Are you willing to say that you understand the truth of God as well as God knows us!?

If you are still convinced the completed Bible is this "perfection" then consider this. If your assumption is true then Paul is describing the current state of himself and all believers due to the partial condition of Scripture. Because of partial Scripture, the believers were thinking as children, seeing only dimly, knowing in part. Does this fit with the teachings of Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "...All Scripture(what is currently available implied) is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may (think as a child, see dimly..NO) be THOROUGHLY equipped for EVERY good work".

Briefly you mentioned "hold fast the word". I was wondering if you had considered the fact that in Scripture, "word of God" is not always referring to Scripture. For example, in Luke 3:2 we read the "word of God came unto John". I don't think a scroll flew out of the sky and hit him in the head. If you have not done so already do a word study on "word". Read the definitions of "logos" and "rhema". Ponder why the Spirit uses logos at times and rhema at times. Truth is lost when too quickly thought found.

Lastly, you misquoted Peter when you stated "Peter tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient for all things pertaining to life and Godliness". This is revealing mistake, Peter actually stated in 2 Peter 1:3 "According as his DIVINE POWER hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness...". then you continued by stating about the misquoted verse, "This is a key verse to remember, not only concerning scriptural authority, but in how the Holy Spirit works through us today," to which I say, amen! Just remember, it is divine power he is talking about.

Paul

Paul,

The purpose of miracles:

Mat 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Mat 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Jhn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The danger of believing miracles exist today:

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

If miracles were performed for any other reason than to confirm the Word, why was Trophimus not healed?

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Why was Timothy not healed?

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

First of all, the only "doctrinal position" that I am holding to is what is taught in the Bible. "My logic" concerning the cessation of miracles comes from I Corinthians 13 - where does your logic come from? You quoted no scriptural support for your premise, only ramblings of furniture and pick-up trucks.

Next, you stated that "the last step in my thought process is not supported in Scripture". For the sake of brevity in this reply, please refer to the passages in Kevin Hamm's message (thank you Kevin) and let those settle the issue concerning miraculous confirmation of the Word.

Finally, I also did not state that the "perfect" mentioned in I Corinthians 13 was the "completion or canonization of Scripture". I said that this refers to the completed revelation of God - note the difference - the events and instructions recorded in the Scriptures were still unfolding and not complete at that time.

You obviously twisted almost everything I stated into something else and made unfounded accusations and innuendo based on that. To me, that shows the weakness of your argument after I followed your original request to quote book, chapter, and verse to support my point.

Mark Waggoner

Paul,

Can you please tell us what you believe the differences in "Logos" and "Rhema" to be and why?

Kevin

In an article by William G Dicks, he states:

"In the Charismatic world we have been inundated with all kinds of teaching from all over the world. Some of it legitimate, and others not. In the last decade or so (it is now 1997) the teaching has been spread that there is a major difference between RHEMA and LOGOS. Is there a difference? If so, what are the differences between these two words? If not, how do they relate to each other? It has been taught that rhema is the spoken Word from God to each individual or to a people today, whereas logos is God's written Word as we have it in the Bible."


Would it surprise you to know that Mr. Dicks, a self-admitted charismatic, determined through careful examination of Scripture and the use of "rhema" and "logos" that there is no difference between the two? There are times when rhema means "the spoken word" and there are times when rhema means "the written word". Also, there are times when logos means "the spoken word" and there are times when logos means "the written word".

It must be concluded then that this is a strawman argument, meant to distract from the real issues.

For anyone wishing to verify Mr. Dick's conclusions the full article may be found here:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/2854/rhemaandlogos.html

Some would have us believe that "rhema" is more important; however, it was "logos" that was made flesh.

John 1:14 And the Word (logos) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth



If this is not what you were referring to, Paul, please tell us your thoughts on "rhema vs logos".

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin, my main thought you made for me. That is Scripture supports the idea of a spoken word of God and written word of God. So when Mark quoted earlier "hold fast the word of God" as you have pointed out, this refers to both the written or spoken word of God since "rhema" and "logos" can mean either. Paul

Paul,

I apologize for misunderstanding. When you said "Division is a frequent visitor in both; therefore, it is not logically sound to suggest it is limited to those who believe in current 'rhema' of God" I understood that to mean that you understood "rhema" to be the spoken Word only.

Since we are in agreement that "rhema" and "logos" have the same meaning and no emphasis should placed on one over the other, I stand corrected.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Just curious as to why there are no more messages on the Madison portion of this website. Is there any explanation??

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:


Again:

"...through the knowledge of him..."

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Paul,

Your refusal to see that the spiritual gifts were bestowed for the purpose of revealing God's Word has caused you to mistakenly believe that "that which is perfect" refers to something other than the full revelation of God's Word.

1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


The "in part" in verse 9 tells us that the spiritual gifts were the partial ways used to reveal God's will for us. Since "perfect" means complete, verse 10 tells us that "that which is perfect" would be the completed revelation of God's will for us.

I submit to you that the revelation was not complete until the writing of Jude's epistle.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


Yes, during the time of spiritual gifts, the church was in it's infancy. It was like a child, but when it received the full revelation of God's Word, it matured.

Because they didn't have the completed Word, they weren't able to see clearly. It was as if they were looking through a glass. With the completed Word, they would see God's will clearly. If they took the glass away, they would see it "face to face".

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Paul,
At first I thought we were merely having a semantic disagreement, but now I think I see where we differ in understanding. First, the scripture you sight does NOT use the word teach as in a form of new instruction. In fact, it is translated guide insome texts because it is NOT new knowledge that the Holy Spirit is bringing! You must also recognize that in this passage Jesus goes on to to say..."I have been speaking FIGURATIVELY, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly..."[vs.25] So to say that vs 13 declares the Holy Spirit to be the source of some brand new knowledge seems to be in error.
When I read your analogy, however, I saw some similarity to what I had been saying. I DO agree that specific circumstances and items are not directly covered in scripture. I'll go even further. I think this is one on the main reasons we have the presence of the Holy Spirit. To help us apply the concepts/princples of the gospel to our everyday lives. I have never worn sandals in my life. That makes shaking the dust from them a difficult task.....the concept, however, is very easy to translate to present day life. If the guidance the Holy Spirit offers me daily is what you call "real time communication" then I say "AMEN!", but if you are saying that there are new commands/principles given to us by the Holy Spirit that are not simply an application of ideas already in scripture...I have to say you are wrong!
Please let me know if I am once agian misunderstanding your position. I wish this type of challenging scriptural discussion happened more often in the church. People might actually have to study their Bible regukarly...wouldn't that ruffle a few feathers! Ha-HA!

Brent

Brent. Yes, I think we are on the same page when it comes to the principles and doctrines being established and nothing is to be added. It is all in the application. It reminds me of God in the garden giving Adam knowledge of good and evil yet telling him not to feed from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Paul

PAul,
So Iwas right to hear you say that the HOLY SPIRIT is a guide and NOT a teacher(of new knowledge). Doesn't this loop us back to our beginning discussion about being able to point to at least priciples in scripture to justify an action/change or inaction/change in our worship. I guess I am back to the problem of saying that a person who disagrees with a "new worship style" is a weaker brother or dogmatic and unspiritual. Don't get me wrong. Our brotherhood often REAKS of dogmatic interpretation of scripture, but don't the alternative to these practices need to be justifiable by scripture if they are to be considered "better"? Change IS constantly happening in our congregations...sometimes we just don't see it. Multicup communion, Sunday School, even songbooks were all "new" at one time. We just forget that sometimes. Anyone who thinks we shouldn't ever change a thing about our worship(if we wish to avoid eternal damnation) needs to show me the day we perfected our services. By the same token, those who wish to Force their worship preferences upon our churches had better be able to show me their scriputural reasoning...or back off! Neither is right in itself...the scripture should be our final arbitur. Just my opinion.
Brent

Brent- We are close. Maybe a brief direct conversation would be a better way of working out the slightly different angle we are coming from. If interested, let me know and I will email you my phone number.

Kevin and Mark- We are miles and a paradigm shift apart! Kevin, as I was trying to articulate in my response to Mark, your logic concerning the cessation of miracles is lacking. True, miracles confirmed the message, helped people believe in Jesus and showed God's mercy but these purposes do not limit them to "Biblical times". Why would unbelievers in that day need all that and today's unbelievers do not? You may say, "we have the completed Bible and historical precedence" to which an unbeliever would say, "so what". Mark- the "perfection" in 1 Corinthians 13 has not come OR all those things about us being way beyond the apostle Paul and understanding as well as we are known by God would be true. That (and many other passages which I am currently not released to share) is one of my Biblical basis for believing they still are for today, the "until" in 1 Cor. has not come. Kevin, true the man of lawlessness will deceive with counterfeit miracles but we are taught to "test every spirit" and recognize trees by their fruit. We are not told "don't believe in miracle in that day because they will have ceased." I could go on but I get a feeling you are going to see what you want to see. "He who has ears let him hear". Paul

Paul,

You stated "Why would unbelievers in that day need all that and today's unbelievers do not? You may say, 'we have the completed Bible and historical precedence' to which an unbeliever would say, 'so what'."

I reiterate:

Jhn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Again:

"...these are written, that ye might believe..."

I have no reason to disbelieve the Apostle John, do you?



If there are miracles being performed today, which Apostle imparted that power?

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

And also:

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



Or are you saying that they have been baptized with the Holy Spirit? Doesn't this contradict Eph 4:5?

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism



If miracles were performed for any other reason than to confirm the Word, why was Trophimus not healed?

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.



Why was Timothy not healed?

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.


Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin- It is possible, and Paul's personal experience verifies it, that at times God choses not to intervene but allows his grace to be sufficient. Paul

Paul,
If I could just jump in here and make an observation. There are no scriptures, to my knowledge, that directly state that miraclous signs stopped. However, I also know of no scripture that specifically states that they continued. This seems to leave us in a difficult spot. We must infer through study and reason which side of this issue we accept. The only direct reference to miraclous acts done in modern day comes from 2Thes 2:9 as a sign of "the coming of the lawless one...". This would seem to put into question the origin of any "miraclous signs" we might see preformed. This is not, however, a stand-alone proof verse against "miracles" today. It is only a warning against the possible source of them. So where does that leave us? Well, most scriptures do seem to refer to signs as a proof of divine guideance or as a validation of the status of an apostle 2Cor 12:12. There also appears to be a pattern of limiting the performance of said signs to either the apostles or those they directly laid hands on.Acts8:16-17 Does this prove that others did not recieve the gift of signs? Not by itself. So since there is no irrefutable proof that signs stopped, is there proof they continued? Outside of the warning against "the lawless one", there are only vague indirect refernces to present day signs. Not what I'd called solid proof either. So we come down to motive. There are multiple refences(see the previous posts on this topic) refering to the signs as being the proofs I stated earlier. Proofs to those who had no ready access to the same orginized presentation of new testament scriptre we have today. These were people who had been directly under the old law at this point...not people 20+ generations removed from it. This was to be a major shifted in out look for them requiring a major level of proof. Even the greatest of unbeliever today is at least parially aware of christian philosphy/life. But is there any reason to believe God would ever stop sending people signs when they drifted away from him? Luke 16:19-31 tell the story of the rich man and Lazerus in which God clearly states that there can come a time when he has given all the signs he is going to give and it is the individuals responsibility to follow his teachings o not. Once again, this is not a total closing of the book on miracles/signs, but if the Bible does not clearly state it and the evidece, if not against it, is at least equally split....should we be arguing about the salvation implications here? Do they even exsist? Granted, I am cynical about signs. I've seen only fakes. I've only experienced those of "the lawless one". Are there true signs preformed? Maybe. Do they change what is in the scriptures? Not a word. Then are they an important part of christian life? I have to say...not likely. The scripture tells us what we need. It's up to us from there. Just some rambling thoughts of mine.

Brent

Brent,

I agree with your statement that "the Scripture tells us what we need". However, the book "Experiencing God", which started this conversation, does not teach that and from what Paul has posted here I don't believe he would subscribe to that point of view either.

What is the christian told if they don't "hear" God speaking to them?

Paul Haley: "However if Jesus does not deal directly with you 'And he walks with me and he talks with me... lovely hymn' I suggest that you do not know him, but rather only know ABOUT him."

The book "Experiencing God": "If the Christian does not know when God is speaking, he is in trouble at the heart of his Christian life!"

What is the christian to do if they don't "hear" God speaking to them? What does the book "Experiencing God" suggest they do? Does it tell them to study their Bible or are they told to seek out someone who is more "spiritually in tune" than they are who can tell them what God wants them to do? Can you see where this is leading?

When I was responding to these posts, anything I viewed as being in support of the book "Experiencing God" would immediately raise my suspicions. My responses were in light of that view.

There is a growing movement to subvert the Scriptures and it's not just in the denominations. After all, they were teaching from the "Experiencing God" workbook right here at Hillcrest.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

I have enjoyed this conversation. My posts from this point forward may be few and far between due to us no longer having internet service at home and also it seems that we are not changing each other's mind. However I feel compelled to take another jab at trying to persuade you to look at things from a slightly different angle. To this point I have mostly attempted to show flaws in certain conclusions you have expressed. Now I will offer the main reason I believe in modern day communication from God. But before that I want to address something Brent implied. I never meant to suggest that what we are discussing is a "salvation issue". Salvation is through the blood, period. However I do believe with the Blackaby qoute Kevin mentioned that the Christian is in trouble (not lost) if he does not believe or hear the Voice of the Spirit.

So here it goes. It seems to me that if you do not "see it" in what I am about to share, it would be a waste of time to go at it from other angles. Drum roll please.....JESUS RECEIVED "REAL TIME" COMMUNICATION FROM HIS FATHER WHEN HE WALKED THE EARTH". Stroll through any of the Gospels, especially John and take note how many times Jesus states that the Father is telling him what to do and say. Guys- think about it, Jesus is not only your Lord and Saviour but he also your perfect example of how to live. He came to earth, listened to the unseen Father and obeyed. He then taught those who would be his disciples to follow Him and let the Spirit guide them as the Father had been guiding Him. It is that simple. If you deny this avenue to God to men you are forcing them to live in a way foreign to Christ's example. You are telling men to be "Christ like" yet denying them an important way to receive guidance that Jesus relyed upon.It would be cruel for Jesus to walk this earth relying so heavily on hearing and obeying His Father and then remove this option for others while challenging and inviting them to be like Him and live as He did. You may be think,"well that is Jesus, I'm different". It's true we are different, but His grace allows us to walk into the Holy of Hoies, the veil is torn, our sins are covered. Yes are callings are different than his, but the ways of interacting with God was perfectly represented to us in Jesus. Jesus didn't dishonor or diminish or contradict Scripture by hearing and obeying His Father.

When Jesus sent out his disciples on the limited commission(Matthew 10)why do you think he told them,"do not worry about HOW or WHAT you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak: for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."? Did you hear that? Not only content (what) but also manner of delivery (how) would be given by revelation directly from the Father, WOW. Do you think this guidance from the Father violated Scripture? No way. It was from the same source. Why didn't Jesus just tell his disciples the important points to make when they were put up before men to speak? Did Jesus not know what his disciples should say? Of course he did and he could have given them words that the opponents would be unable to stand against. But, he didn't, he put them in a situation where they would start learning to hear with their spiritual ears on their own. The Master Teacher was teaching them to rely on hearing and obeying the unseen Father as he had and was doing.

There, I hope you got it. If you did, great. If not, maybe in time you will, I tried. Paul


"Therefore take heed HOW you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him. " Luke 8:18

Paul,

If your premise is correct, then we are to raise the dead, judge the world and demand that all honor us as they honor the Father:

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth
him all things that himself doeth: and he
will shew him greater works than these, that
ye may marvel.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and
quickeneth [them]; even so the Son
quickeneth whom he will.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath
committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even
as they honour the Father. He that honoureth
not the Son honoureth not the Father which
hath sent him.
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute
judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Did the early Christians wait for a divine assignment (or even seek one)from God or did they decide on their own the best course of action to take?

1Cr 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there
is not a wise man among you? no, not one
that shall be able to judge between his
brethren?

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the
Pharisees which believed, saying, That it
was needful to circumcise them, and to
command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together
for to consider of this matter.

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of
Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you
seven men of honest report, full of the Holy
Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over
this business.

Act 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to
seek Saul:

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him
unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a
whole year they assembled themselves with
the church, and taught much people. And the
disciples were called Christians first in
Antioch.

HOW should we hear?

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear;
then cometh the devil, and taketh away the
word out of their hearts, lest they should
believe and be saved.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when
they hear, receive the word with joy; and
these have no root, which for a while
believe, and in time of temptation fall
away.

Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they,
which, when they have heard, go forth, and
are choked with cares and riches and
pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit
to perfection.

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which
in an honest and good heart, having heard
the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit
with patience.

Luk 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle,
covereth it with a vessel, or putteth [it]
under a bed; but setteth [it] on a
candlestick, that they which enter in may
see the light.

Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be
made manifest; neither [any thing] hid, that
shall not be known and come abroad.

Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for
whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and
whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken
even that which he seemeth to have.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin- As I stated we are not Jesus so we have a different calling. God has personal tasks for each of us that He reveals to us as he revealed to Jesus his specific tasks. When Jesus instructed his disciples that the Father would speak through them WHEN they were before men to give an answer it is clear that he is referring to a specific time which implies that the Father is not always speaking through them. So there will be times when we are speaking our own mind (ie- the verses you quoted) and times the Father will give us His words.

Also have you considered the fact that Jesus taught his disciples not to decide before hand what to say but let the Father reveal to them the words was one of the commands to be taught to all men of all nations?
Well think about it, this is a teaching Jesus gave his disciples (Matthew 10) and then in Matthew 28:20 Jesus tells his disciples to go to every nation and among other things teach them to obey everything he had commanded them. So, not only is it taught by example but also by direct command.

So Kevin I must obey Jesus command to listen for the Father to give me words at certain times and I, regretably, will leave it to you to "decide on your own the best course of action to take." Paul

I will admit that there afre times when I went into a situation without knowing what i was going to do or say, only to come out on the otherside saying,"Wow! Where did I get that answer?". This is espeacially been clear to me on an occasion of a tragedy in someone's life(ie.death,accident...etc). If this is what you mean as opposed to some tangible voice in my head..I just might buy that...

Brent

Yes Brent, the example you proposed is the principle I am referring to. Awesome, we finally agreed on something! Paul

...Great!...just so you don't mistake this for me saying that I saying anything I didn't find(in so form) in scripture. The guidance came in the form of how to present the comfort---not the content.

Paul,

This would only apply when we are brought before governors and kings, wouldn't it?

Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.


Jesus also commanded the apostles to:

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


And he also said:

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


How do you reconcile this with his command to "teach all nations"?

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin, you are a true blue literalist! I admire your tenacious grip on verifying the specifics. However, interpretation involves the specifics of the situation and the principle being taught. For example when Jesus was asked who was his neighbor, he told the story of the good Samaritan. To apply a similar exacting literal application as you have with the above post to Jesus answer would limit Jesus definition of a neighbor to people finding and helping people beat up on a road. The principle being taught is to help when a need is discovered. The principle on the above post is that the Father will help us out when we the chips are down and we need the right words.
As far as directions about where to go, the disciples recieved instruction for the limited commission and the great commission. Again, Jesus gives specifics commands for all our tasks. Plus the great commission instruction came later and superceded the first instruction for them and us. As far as the other commands I have heard testimony to all those, I know I know, there are some charlitans (sp?) out there but I believe there are some real miracles too. Paul

Paul,

How does one go about picking and choosing which commands should be interpreted literally?

You said in one post:

"Also have you considered the fact that Jesus taught his disciples not to decide before hand what to say but let the Father reveal to them the words was one of the commands to be taught to all men of all nations?
Well think about it, this is a teaching Jesus gave his disciples (Matthew 10) and then in Matthew 28:20 Jesus tells his disciples to go to every nation and among other things teach them to obey everything he had commanded them."

When I pointed out other commands that Jesus gave the disciples you said:

"...interpretation involves the specifics of the situation and the principle being taught."

What you are really saying is that if it fits your theology, it's in. If it doesn't fit your theology, it's out. That's hardly conducive to seeking the Truth.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin. So are you suggesting that words from the Father could be given to you but only if Rick Perry was in the room? Paul

Paul,

What I am saying and have said is that those commands were given specifically to the 12 apostles.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them,

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

So who is picking and choosing to fit a certain set of beliefs? Paul

Kevin- you suggest that I am being selective with interpretation while it seems to me your desire to hold on to traditional C of C teaching is causing you to make interesting conclusions. For example when Jesus states his sheep would hear his voice, you state that this is not actually what Jesus meant but it was just a "figure of speech" meaning something else?!?!?. Additionally, when Jesus told his disciples to go to all nations and teach them to obey everything he had commanded them, you suggested Jesus didn't really mean "everything", is this also just a figure of speech? Also you have yet to respond to the strongest argument for an interactive relationship with God, Jesus' lifestyle. The question is simple. Do you believe the way Jesus lived his life in the flesh is man's example of how to live and relate to God or not?
Paul

Kevin- Do you not want to answer my question or are you still pondering? Paul

Well Kevin, your silence seems to say it all. I have enjoyed this discourse but now the Father is directing me to withdraw. I will be praying that you experience Jesus "real time", that is to know your Saviour vs. simply knowing about what He did 2000 years ago. I guarantee it will change you. You will agree with the Apostle Paul, everything else is as rubbish compared to knowing Him. Goodbye, Paul

Paul,

I will try to address each of your references where God spoke directly to individuals:

Adam- Gen. 3:9 (God speaks directly with a voice)

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself

Noah- Gen. 6:13 (implies that God spoke)

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth

Abraham- Gen. 15:1 (through a vision)

After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward

Sarai- Gen.18:15 (must be an audible voice since he was speaking to Abraham and Sarai heard Him)

Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh

Hagar- Gen.16:9 (an angel spoke)

And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands

Jacob- Gen. 32:24-30 (implies that God spoke)

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed

Joseph- Gen. 40:8, 41:16 (manner of communication is not made clear)

Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and [there is] no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, [Do] not interpretations [belong] to God? tell me [them], I pray you

Moses- Ex. 3:4 (implies that God spoke)

And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I

Aaron- Ex. 4:27 (implies that God spoke)

And the LORD said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in the mount of God, and kissed him

Samuel- 1 Sam. 3:4 (implies that God spoke)

That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here [am] I

Saul- 1 Sam. 10:10 (manner of communication is unclear)

And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them

David- 2 Sam. 5:19 (implies that God spoke)

And David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up to the Philistines? wilt thou deliver them into mine hand? And the LORD said unto David, Go up: for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into thine hand

Job- Job 38,39,most of 40,41 (implies that God spoke)

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said

Isaiah- Isaiah 7:3 (implies that God spoke)

Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field

Jeremiah- Jer. 11:1 (implies that God spoke)

Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem

Jonah- Jonah 3:1-2 (implies that God spoke)

And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying

Peter- Acts 10:13 (unclear if this was an audible voice or an inner voice)

And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat

John- Rev. 1:10-11 (God spoke with an audible voice)

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

Agabus- Acts 11:28 (unclear if he was made known by word or by a sign)

And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar

Paul- Acts 27:23-24 (implies angel of God spoke)

For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee
-------------------

In a majority of the verses you cite, there was an audible voice used. This is not what I understand you to mean when you say you hear his voice. Correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying. What I understand you to mean is that you "feel" Him "leading you" or "directing you" or "laying something on your heart". If this is correct, then can you reference verses in scripture where someone "felt lead or directed" or had something "layed on their heart"?

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Just a sampling.

"And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ." Luke 2:26

"Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness." Luke 4:1

"While Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness". Luke 3:2

Jesus taught,"for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you." Matthew 10:20

"And they shall all be taught BY God. Therefore anyone who has heard and learned FROM the Father comes to me." John 6:45

"Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 16:17

Paul

Paul,

One would naturally post the verses that would best support their position. Not one verse you posted says "I felt led" or "I felt directed" or "I had it laid on my heart". On that basis I would have to conclude that your theory has no support in Scripture and neither do the theories presented in the book "Experiencing God".

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Kevin. OK how 'bout, I "learned" this from the Father, or the Spirit "led" me to do this, or the Holy Spirit "revealed" something to me? Paul

Paul

If "my logic" concerning the cessation of miracles is lacking then the scriptures must be lacking. Kevin and I have provided multiple references to that fact and yet, it does not appear to be enough. We do not need miracles to confirm faith today because God's revelation to man has been completed and that revelation has been recorded. Your logic about us progressing beyond the Apostle Paul is what is lacking. What has that got to do with the coming of "the perfect"? Paul was executed prior to that. We have the written account of those things that he did not witness. If "the perfect" is not the completed revelation, then what is it?

God has revealed His will to man in various ways at various times. He has spoken directly to man, through Moses, the law, and the prophets. He spoke "in the last days" through His Son. His Son imparted the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort His followers. He did this through miraculous means as the revelation was continuing to unfold. This was necessary. Now that we have God's Final Word, those miracles are not necessary because that Word was written so that we would believe.

Mark Waggoner

Mark- you have a good, true, trustworthy map of a beautiful land but you refuse to go there. It seems you are satisfied to just study the map. I wish you would join us. Paul

That's right! It is called the Bible, which I do study and try to follow. This is our ONLY map - what are you following? Jesus said that if the blind lead the blind, they both will fall into the pit. No thanks, I chose to walk in the light.

Mark- You asked what the perfection refers to if it is not the completion of Scripture. I believe the perfection is hinted at(as with many prophesies, may have multiple applications)in Isaiah 11:5-9, which will be accomplished upon Christ's return. Then we will see Him face to face and know as we are known. Paul

While it is true that Jesus was and is perfect, He cannot be the "perfect" as mentioned in I Corinthians 13. The Greek noun used is this verse cannot be utilized for a person. While Old Testament prophecies do point to Christ as perfect, this is not the application Paul is using. He is comparing the imperfect (incomplete) with the perfect (complete). The context is miraculous spiritual gifts, which were temporary. Again, this is all directly tied to the role of the Holy Spirit and indirectly to the completion of written scripture. The revelation had to be completed before it could be recorded. The scriptures contain "the perfect" and since they are God-breathed, they are perfect.

Mark Waggoner

Mark. I wasn't referring to Jesus per se but rather the event of his second coming. When we will know as (to the same degree) we are known (by God). Paul

If "knowing" is a sign of this perfection, then you must agree that "the perfect" has already come...

"And by this we KNOW that we have come to KNOW Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, 'I have come to KNOW Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected." (I John 2:3-5a)

"I have not written to you because you do not KNOW the truth, but because you do KNOW it, and because no lie is of the truth." (I John 2:21)

"These things I have written to you who belive in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." (I John 5:13)

These are but a very few of the many comforting passages that tell us what we can KNOW. When Jesus does come (not "the perfect") we will know much more but that doesn't have anything to do with modern-day miraculous powers. God, in His infinite wisdom, has revealed to man what he needs to know and do. This has been this way from the beginning as He has revealed His will fragmentarily over time (Hebrews 1:1-3). The age of miraculous powers is over because their need is over. Teleos (the perfect) does not refer to sinlessness, Jesus, or heaven. It denotes what has become complete or full-grown.

I have read a description of miracles as being the scaffolding that is temporarily erected while a permanent structure is being built. Once the building is built, the scaffolding is taken down. That structure, God's revelation, is complete and the scaffolding, miraculous powers, has been taken down.

Mark Waggoner

Mark. It is all about degree (as we are known). However, as stated earlier, it seems to me if you do not see it in the life of Jesus, you will not see it in this text either. Paul

The Scriptures speak nothing of "degree (as we are known)". God knows who His people are - always has. I see very little in your replies that either apply to the discussion or are consistent with scripture. Is it that you cannot support your positions with them? We must agree that the Scriptures are complete and without error in order to proceed with this discussion. It appears to me, that you do not believe that God's revelation to man is complete. This does not mean that we will not know and understand much more when Christ returns that we do now - that is not the point. The point is; the Gospel has been once delivered, it is sufficient for us, and we must let it transform us in order to be saved.

I see plenty in the life of Christ, particularly His claim of and respect for authority. When we go beyond the Scriptures, we go beyond the authority of Christ. Jesus said, "He who has ears, let him hear." The question for us is, are we listening?

Mark Waggoner

Paul,
Do you have any post-new covenant examples of direct holy spirit intervention that do not specificaly involve an apostle? Just wondering...it might make it easier for me to see your point.

Brent

Brent. That is a bit difficult because the apostles got around to most the characters in the NT. But I do recall that Cornelus received a message before he met Peter. As well as Jesus speaking to Paul before the apostles had laid hands on him. Obviously, these kind of encounters were rare then and I suspect would be rare now. However they are Biblical examples of God directly speaking to people who at the time were not apostles and had not had "hands laid" on them. Paul.

Paul,

In the case of Cornelius...GOD did NOT talk to him, it was "an angel of God"vs3. As for Paul/Saul, unless you are saying that everyone who speaks to god in a vision is chosen to be not just a disicple but an apostle, then it must be treated differently. We must also realize that he was a contemporary of the apostles and also the LAST person to be listed as having this experience.

just some thoughts,
Brent

Brent- Let me clarify, when I say a message from God, I mean some type of supernatural communication originating from God. As far as Paul being a contemporary of the apostles, who wasn't in the New Testament? It seems to me you are using "pick up truck" logic I described in an earlier post to Mark. It seems that you are implying that whatever God does supernaturally in the "Bible days", He can't do again unless He is accomplishing the same task. Psalms states God sits in the heavens and does as He pleases. If He sent angels to help convert Cornelius He may do it again for someone else or to accomplish some other job. A correct conclusion to make from examples of God using supernatural means to accomplish tasks is that God has supernatural tools at His disposal and can use them when He wants to. Now, with that said, I say again, this type of action from God seems rare in Scripture and today from what I and others seem to be experiencing. BUT, Scripture does not rule it out. Paul

I never meant to imply that form of "pick up logic" as you called it. God has the power to make a 2 headed, purple spotted tri-tongued ardvark that is born speaking greek. All powerfull means All powerfull. All I was pointing out is that the rarity of your example combined with the context of the occurrence can IMPLY a certain pattern. Without a specific yes or no from scripture I feel this to be the safest way to treat things I am not clear on. Maybe I will find something to change my mind on a given topic after further study, but until I do I try to attach God's will/hand/action only to those things I can see fit this logic process. Imust point out again that we are given multiple DIRECT warnings against these "false signs", but NO DIRECT instruction that true miraculous gifts will be bestowed in our day. Hardly a definitive answer to the situation, however I feel it to be the safeest scriptural stand I can take right now. The potential validity of and the "revelations" from those who claim to blessed these things is at best a source of confusion and concern. God doesn't create confusion or concern....man and his sins do. Does this clarify my position for you?
Brent

Thanks for giving your opinion on the references, however you did answer my question, "when Jesus walked on this earth as a man, was Scripture the only way he heard from his Father.?" Paul

Kevin- Oops I made a mistake, I meant to say you didn't answer the question about Jesus. Sorry about that. Paul

who is Ken Young in texas? what do you know about him.I s he grounded in the faith. need to know immediatley.

The only information I have on a Ken Young in Texas is from a search on the internet. I will let you draw your own conclusions.

Is this the same Ken Young that is at Golf Course Road Church of Christ in Midland?

If so, I found information on an article written by Ken Young about observing the Lord's Supper on another day other than Sunday. I tried to find the article on the Golf Course Road Church of Christ's website, but it has been removed. Here is an excerpt from the article that I found on another website:

In a web-page article by Ken Young titled, "Communion -- Frequency of the Celebration," the practice of partaking the Lord's supper any day of the week is defended and promoted. The article reveals that as the leadership at the

"Golf Course Road Church of Christ, in Midland, Texas, planned for "Stream '97", they

"decided a very fitting conclusion to Saturday's schedule of worship, study, and share groups would be the celebration of Communion.

Many of our members had been on a "Walk To Emmaus,"

an interdenominational spiritual renewal weekend, and had been greatly blessed by the Communion service taken on a Friday or a Saturday. Golf Course Road church of christ had also planned similar weekends, one for men and another for women.

A Saturday morning Communion service was one of the high points of the weekend.

For most who participated in these events for the first time, taking Communion on a day other than Sunday was a new experience, and for some, it was approached with a sense of uneasiness. However, almost everyone who went through one of these experiences gave testimony to the significant impact the Communion had on them."


This link is to Hallal Music:

http://www.hallalmusic.com/abouthallal.htm

The following was found on the Golf Course Road Church of Christ website:

Music Minister – Ken Young
Ken Young is the Music Minister and oversees the Hallal Ministry. Ken coordinates the sound and multimedia ministry at GCR, trains and directs the praise teams and organizes many special events. Hallal Ministry is an outreach of GCR to share the joy of worship through music. This Ministry travels several times a year to conduct “Day of Praise” events for churches or special events. Ken is a gifted composer and writer with many of his arrangements and songs published through Howard Publishing in written form, tapes, and CDs. Ken and Marca have two children, Cole, and Kelci who also sing with the Hallal team.

Hope this helps.

Kevin

I know that Ken Young worked at the Westover Hills Church of Christ in Austin before he moved to Golf Course Road. He has done amazing things in arranging music and writing new songs as well. He has an amazing gift from God -- music. He also has a heart that loves Jesus.

THE SPIRITUAL SWORD is a quarterly publication, which I edit. Several issues have dealt with the very problems you describe. For your needs, I especially recommend the following: THE COMMUNITY CHURCH MOVEMENT(October 2000), THINGS MOST SURELY BELIEVED (October 2001), and IS THE RESTORATION PLEA VALID? (January 2002). If you will provide a mailing address, I will be happy to send you a free copy of each. After you read these issues, if you think it would be helpful, I suggest that you order copies to give to others who are concerned about what is happening.

Would you still send this information? If so, my addres is
1104 Walters Drive
Granbury, Texas 76048

Dear Sisters and Bro's,I am solely sorry for you if this is the case.The congration I attend Has gone thru this very thing.We hired a Minster and then slowly things started goin weird and Members started leaving,a Congretion of 600 is now down to about 90 people and we are on the road to recovery,the Preacher is gone the Elders resigned and now we have only 2 Elders previously we had 8,so my Heart and My Prayers go out to you and I would get rid of the culprit's we did and now things are back to normal the people that left are starting to slowly come back,again You are in my Prayers and Be Strong and Faithful,and remember"what would Jesus Do"?He would fight to throw out the evil ones.

Subject: Re: Brothers and Sisters at Hillcrest Church of Christ
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:32:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "Elvin Bobo" <bobo.elvin@worldnet.att.net>
To: concernedmembers@webmailstation.com




Dear Kevin: Received your email and am so sorry that another congregation is being taken in by what apparently is a nationwide movement. Hope you can do something to stop it before it gets as far gone as Richland Hills CofC in Fort Worth. We have fought Charismatic beliefs, ecumenical pushes, Instrumental music, Baptism is not essential, and now we are fighting no deacons but "special servants--both men and women" and when I say fight I mean meetings, letters, everything we can think of and to no avail., so I guess we have no advise but a lot of concern and sympathy for what you are going through. At RHCC we have a full time paid worship minister who plans songs, skits,etc and is under the direct command of the pulpit minister------forget the elders. Our elders told me just yesterday that as a hard fast policy they will NOT meet with an open meeting of the members of the congregation. They would agree in a minute with your list that was made of what you wanted from the elders, but agree is all it would amount to.

Nothing would ever change. Wish we could be of more help . I would just say that if you aren't able to stop this immediately you might as well give up.
We will soon be leaving RHCC and it breaks our hearts to leave so many sweet friends and a church that has been so good before all this but we feel we can't fight it any longer because we make no headway and by staying we are only condoning it. We will keep you in our prayers and ask that you do the same for us. Keep us posted. Maybe at some point we would know something
to help. In Love Elvin Bobo

What is Happening to the churches of Christ?
We have only to look at the Denominations for the answer.

The Wind of "Change" came to the "Traditional" denominations in the 1960's. Even though we as members of COC look upon Denominations as lost anyway. They fell further away from truth, in the 60's. Falling Away from truth, is a series of progressive steps. The fringe element, (our fringe element:Rubel Shelley's and Max Lucado's of our time) soon overcame the denominations. All the Mainline churches were "Traditional". There would have never been seen a woman preacher in the denominations of the Mainline churches! But what happened?

There would have never been heard of Divorcing and remarriages which was virtually unheard of among "christians" prior to the 60's. Divorce now is as common as grass. Looking at the denominations we can see what "change" has accomplished. The exact same progression is occuring in the churches of Christ. We are only mirroring their fallen steps.

The churches of Christ have been holding fast the high calling and the doctrine once delivered unto the saints. But now too, the winds of "change" have blown upon our doors. And the doors are swinging wide open.

There is only a remnant who will not succumb and be led away with the error of the wicked.

I applaud COC for holding to the doctrine all these years, in the face of change and televangelism and many prosperity teachings going on in the denom's. They have Another Jesus and Another Gospel and Another Spirit.

But because we are at the End of the Age, all churches will! succumb to the error of the wicked. Now is the time for the Fall of the churches of Christ along with her sister Judah (denominations).

I read a recent article, which the writer used the Term "Dying! Traditional! Zealot" with reference to the Churches of Christ. Truer words could not be spoken. For we are witnessing the Death of the Church Age.

"Come out of her MY people, that ye receive not of her plagues."
Patricia Cole
Exile for the Word of God and the testimony and Jesus Christ
Chicago, IL

In one of your articles you addressed the issue of the highly educated, or is it influenced, Elders rought riding the other Elders with their phd's. Now that you have seen this for your own eyes can you see why some of us call it a cemetery? Satan does his greatest work in the seminary. Welcome to the fight, I hope and pray that more of your Brothers and Sisters at Hillcrest will join you in your local fight. The best advice I can sagest concerning this issue is Pray and Pray alot.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

I do believe Chuck has hit the nail dead on the head!
He is writing about our country, but it is true about our congregations also.

Christians are our own worst Enemy
By Chuck Baldwin
May 8, 2001
Several news reports of late serve to remind me that Christians have no one
to blame but themselves for many (if not most) of the problems plaguing our
country today. In the final analysis, history will record the rise and fall
of the United States in terms relating to the action (and inaction) of its
sizeable Christian population.
For example, the U.S. Marshall who led the government's confiscation of the
Indianapolis Baptist Temple is reported to be a Baptist deacon. The Attorney
General and President of the United States who issued the order to carry out
that confiscation are also outspoken Christians.
Likewise, several professing Christians participated in the government's
bloodletting at Waco, Texas. Professing Christians were among the federal
agents that used tanks, CS gas and machinegun fire to kill old men, women
and children in a manner reminiscent of Nazi Germany.
Further, several Christian churches recently joined homosexual activists for
a "gay pride" parade in Lake Worth, Florida. And a recent newspaper article
reported that as many as a third of all "Christian" young people believe it
is ok for unmarried couples to cohabit.
The common consensus of many (if not most) "Christians" today is that they
will submit to whatever the law and the culture say, regardless of how
unlawful or sinful it may be. Of course, such a philosophy enjoys neither
the approbation of history nor Biblical authority.
It needs to be remembered that the Church was born in a baptism of
resistance to unlawful governmental edicts and to immoral cultural
deteriorations. Simon Peter's clarion call, "We must obey God rather than
man" was heard throughout the churches.
Also understand that it was the reigning government that persecuted,
imprisoned and killed those early Church fathers, not gangsters and outlaws.
In fact, the government itself had become outlaw. But, that didn't keep
those early Christians from paying for their faith and independence with
their lives.
The American story is a similar one. When Ethan Allen and those Green
Mountain Boys captured Fort Ticonderoga, they proclaimed in no uncertain
terms the cry of the American Revolution, "No king, but Jesus." It was
allegiance to God and to God alone that birthed the Christian Church and the
United States of America. However, this spirit is virtually nonexistent
today.
Today, Christians consider their final authority to be not the eternal laws
of God but the evolving laws of men, while morality is determined not by
Biblical injunction but by cultural whim. It is frightening to think just
how far modern "Christians" will go to get along with "the powers that be."
If Biblical characters had behaved like American Christians are behaving
today, we would not have the stories of Moses, Elijah, Daniel or John the
Baptist. And if our Founding Fathers had behaved like our "Christian"
brothers today, neither would we have a nation called The United States of
America.
The thing that American Christians lack today is RESISTANCE. We seem
incapable of resisting evil of any kind. While immorality is destroying our
families and internationalism is destroying our independence, Christians
collectively not only do nothing to resist these Draconian developments, but
also seem more than willing to applaud them.
When looking for a culprit in the story of America's demise, look no further
than to the doorstep of the church. We are our own worst enemy.

Deceit: Just enough truth to get you to buy off on a lie. The degree of truth is determined on how much truth you need to except a lie. The trick is to be able to gleam the truth from the fields sown with lies. The higher up the scale of milk to meat you are, the more you can gleam. Babies in Christ should stay out of these fields. The meat eaters can gleam it clean and not touch the lies. If you are an herb eater and you visit these fields, check out your bounty, to see if it is lie free with the true acid lie test the scriptures. The secret of the meat eaters is the uses of the scriptures. You may be asking what in the world is he talking about? I Corinthians 1:17-3:23 and Hebrews 5:11-14 when Paul is chastising follower for being slothful.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Joh 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10 - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Does this mean God/Jesus’ love is conditional?

II Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Well this shines a bright light on the dangers scripture twisting that we are use to in the Modern feel good church.

II Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Oh, oh, oh, another one
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. 5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
May goodness there every where:
I Timothy 4:1 Proverbs 1:24-33 Isaiah 65:11-16 Jeremiah 7:11-16 Matthew 24:24.

Hirelings: John 10:12-14
Brothers and Sisters cemeteries have cranked out the Hirelings and we have bought off on what they have taught us for years. It is time we start holding them to the Word. TEST what they teach (Acts 17:11-12)

Joe,

I have noticed, both on this web site and on the Richland Hills site, that you seem to attack these churches in general and assume certain things to be true. For instance, in your previous post you referred to "feel-good" churches. How do you know that Hillcrest or Richland Hills is a "feel-good" church? Have you attended there regularly? Do you know the leaders of the church? Have you listened to sermons there and determined them to be "feel-good" rather than biblically accurate? Now, if you want to debate the specific issue mentioned, such as "special servants" at Richland Hills or the things Kevin Hamm mentioned on this site about praise music, etc., that's one thing. But I don't see a need to make these sweeping assumptions and attack these churches and church leaders about other issues without knowing the facts of each situation.

a concerned reader

P.S. Could you please define the word "Hireling" for me?

P.P.S. The verses listed above do attest to conditional salvation, but not conditional love. Don't you think that God loves sinners and desires for them to repent? Whether they do or not and whether they are saved or not is not necessarily the same as whether God loves them or not.

Who are you, concern reader?
I would love to answer your question you brought up some points that I have great answer to.

I have read each of your messages carefully. I don't buy for one second that you want to know who "concerned reader" is because you'd love to answer his/her questions. Your tone of "join the fight" lacks love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Rather it screams of need for power and control. I believe you want to know "concerned reader's" name so that you have someone else to blast and attack. By your own words, I urge you to "pray and pray often."

The time of the "Chicken Christian" is over...we must drive out the secular humanists now trying to take over our traditional Bible believing churches. If we have to stand at the church doors with our shotguns then so bet it. If we roll over on this we will be judged in heaven for our lack of spiritual and PHYSICAL strength in defending our faith.
B. W.

Kevin;
This is an effort to contact you "of site" and invite you to visit the e-mail group I have called E-Mail Truth (see Access below) I am very interested in what is happening at Hillcrest. Could you give me a current up date. We sent four children to ACU. We visited Hillcrest a couple of months ago and was surprised by some phrases used and statements made by the adult class teacher. Thanks, in advance.
Visit: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/e-mailtruth
JFT

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I Corinthians 13

My brothers and sisters in Christ, I am a student at ACU, a two-year counselor at Camp Blue Haven in Las Vegas, New Mexico. The confusion people feel about changes in the Churches of Christ is real, and it is common. But let us not let marginal things such as instruments in worship, clapping, etc., take away from the focus of our faith: we are children of God, co-heirs with Christ. We are Christ's body here on earth: we are charged first to love God, and second, but very closely related, to love one another. We are charged to go out into our world, to bring people to Christ. I would encourage all those embroiled in this controversy, "progressive" and "traditional" alike to read Romans 15. I have heard it say that Romans is a hard book, almost as incomprehensible as Revelation. I do not believe that. God provided his Word to clarify things for us, not to confuse us. When God, through Paul, tell me not to look down on someone who believes differently than me on disputable matters, then I will not look down on him. My brother is a staunch convervative member of the Church of Christ: yet I love him, and he loves me. Love is the basis of all Christian relationships, not sound doctrine.
Saying all that, I do not believe that church elders should implement so-called "progressive" elements into churches where they are not accepted. No one can force their brother or sister to grow. Now let me clarify what I think is a disputable matter: first, musical instruments. No where that I have found does speak on the issue either way. However, the Old Testament mentions musical instruments numerous times, all in conjunction with worshiping the Lord, with the exception of Amos 6. So this falls under disputable matters. If someone in my congregation is seriously bothered by musical instruments, and cannot get over it, then the use of instruments should stop. The same opinion applies to clapping, multiple taking of Communion, raising of hands, kneeling, etc.
Women taking leadership roles in the Church is a slightly different matter. I Corinthians 14:34 specifically speaks against women speaking in the church. Now, it is true that we must always take Scripture into historical context, but also remember that God gave us, here and now, his holy Word. Every verse in the Bible has significance for you and I. For those who say that the injunction against women speaking in church is historically contextual, remember Romans 15; do not do something that will make your brother stumble. Obviously, by the existance of this website, there are things that make certain members of the Family stumble.
For those who might be labled "traditional", let me say a few words. Fist, do not look down upon those who, while loving the Lord with all their mind, body, and souls, take up practices that you find unnerving. I am disappointed to say that many people on this forum, reacting emotionally to perceived dangers to the fellowship, forget to act in love. The salvation of others is not the concern of all, it concerns God and the individual. We cannot earn our faith; it is a gift of God out of his grace. It would be helpful, I think, to remember that we didnt earn our adoption into God's family, it was given to us.....by blood.

Drew,

I appreciate your willingness to help. These are important issues to some, not so important to others.

The last sentence of the following statement is very revealing to me:

"Saying all that, I do not believe that church elders should implement so-called "progressive" elements into churches where they are not accepted. No one can force their brother or sister to grow."

Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but the way I understand it is that you believe people who clap, raise hands, stomp, stand at predetermined times, etc., are more spiritual than their backwards "traditional" brethren.

Maybe we can discuss this further sometime, Drew, if you are willing.

Prayerfully onward,

Kevin

The Bible instructs us to do everything in love as the title of the original post states; however, there is much unnecessary confusion concerning what love is. This has led many to follow false doctrine. The Scriptures also teach that love is obedience to sound doctrine. Love and sound doctrine cannot be separated and they do not stand in opposition to one another as some profess. Jesus said, "If anyone loves Me, they will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." (John 14:23). Just a few verses later, He says; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." (John 15:10). In II John 6, we read; "This is love, that you walk in His commandments." While it is true that love must be our motivation, we cannot truly love if we do not walk in the truth. We are commanded to "speak the truth in love" (Eph. 4:15) not to compromise the truth with good intentions.

The fallacy of placing love and sound doctrine in opposition to one another can obviously lead one to err in either direction. One can "obey" without love and one can "love" without obedience. These are equally false situations. As was stated in the original post, many discount the need for sound doctrine on the basis that all is needed is love. Jesus certainly did not teach this and neither did any other New Testament writer. Keeping in mind the unbreakable bond between love and sound doctrine, consider the following passages. I Tim. 1:3 - "...instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines"; I Tim. 4:16 - "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as long as you do this you will insure salvation for yourself and for those who hear you."; Titus 1:6-9, "...holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict." These are but a very few passages stating the necessity of sound doctrine. In fact, if one would examine the New Testament specifically looking for encouragement to continue in sound doctrine or warnings of deception and false teaching, they would find that every book with the exception of Philemon and III John addresses this.

The need for sound doctrine based in love also guards against the improper designation of certain teachings as "opinion", "marginal things", or "disputable matters". This is a question of authority, which begins with God and was delegated to Christ (Matt. 28:18). We are commanded to do "everything in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Col. 3:17), which means it must be by His authority. Authority cannot be assumed, it must be delegated and for us, that can only mean Scriptural authorization. No one has the right to add any religious activity not authorized by Scripture and no one can eliminate any religious activity commanded by Scripture. With regard to worship, consider the following examples. Gen. 4:5-7 - Cain's sacrifice was unacceptable, Lev. 10:6 - Nadab and Abihu were killed during the very act of "worship" as they added to God's command, I Sam. 13:8-14 - Saul's sacrifice (another act of worship) was not accepted because he disobeyed God by not destroying everything. When man steps beyond Scripture, he places his soul in jeopardy (I Cor. 4:6). Specifically, worship is either right (acceptable) or wrong (unacceptable) depending upon God's will. Our worship must be in spirit (with the proper attituded) and in truth (with the proper activities) in order to be acceptable to God (John 4:23-24).

These things have all been presented in love. Salvation of others is every Christian's business (Matt. 28:19). Possessing the elitist spirit that "traditional" people must accept unscriptural change in order to "grow" only illustrates the point Paul was making in I Cor. 4:6. It certainly is not my intent to offend anyone with this response but to present some of what God has said on the matter. Let's examine the Scriptures to determine whether or not it is true.

Mark Waggoner

Kevin:
I am a member of the church in Jacksonville, Fl. The elders at my church will not teach about the change agents and we have many liberal churches here in town.
If you receive this message, plesse let me know as I have a couple of questions about the status of the church in general and around Nashville.
Thanks,
Bob Price

Matthew 18:15-20