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Kevin Hamm
(Login KevinHamm)

Re: Na Na Na

December 18 2002, 10:05 AM 

This is exactly why I approve all messages, Cathy. It illustrates perfectly who we are dealing with.


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Just a brother
(no login)

Re: Re: Na Na Na

December 29 2002, 8:16 PM 

It's a shame that there ARE many teenagers in the churches of Christ, and in ALL churches, that fit to a tee the descriptions described by James in these posts. It is an ever-increasing problem that many Church of Christ people have buried their heads in the sand over the past decade or so. Folks, while we have been arguing over (and i know it's true, I still see it in bulletins from our churches) issues like mixed swimming at christian camps, dancing, etc. (important issues though they be), our youth have passed us by. They are experimenting with drugs, they are sexually active, they are contemplating suicide, they are involved in all kinds of crime. And, you know, I can't prove it, but I'd bet that the percentage of kids in the church involved in these activities is higher than we would care to admit. People, we may be winning the battle over some doctrinal issues and over some moral concerns, but I guarantee you we are LOSING the war with SIN in the lives of our young teens. They are not being taught how to recognize sin and how to avoid it. Far too many Christian teens are ending up pregnant outside of marriage, or worse, getting abortions. Many are going to bars, getting involved with drugs and gangs and doing who knows what else. Why don't parents know about it? The kids are hiding it from them and many parents are hiding their eyes from it all, hoping it will all go away. I know that much to be true because I have been a youth minister in the past. While everyone is waging war to keep the church "pure," we are losing yet another generation of young people to the world. Take a look in your churches at the age gap. Many churches have lots of people over the age of about 50 or 55. That number decreases greatly with the age group between 35 and 50 (I am 40 and part of that age group). By and large, the church of Christ lost that age group of the late 60's and early 70's. I'm no professional statistician or a prophet, but I believe that we are about to lose another generation - those in the late teens to young adulthood. Yes, let's keep the church on track biblically, but if we do that and neglect teaching our people how to recognize and deal with sin, we simply repeat the same mistakes that our parents made in the seventies, and we broaden the chasm that already exists between the gray hairs and the young ones in the church. Surely no one wants that.

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Laughing Hysterically
(no login)

Christian Pornography

December 17 2002, 11:31 PM 

James, you are exactly RIGHT!! This is Pornography, and I must say that I am hopelessly addicted. I try to fight the good fight against it, but the people that control this website, as well as the moderators (who I think are Kevin and a guy named Donnie on the other boards) seldom let anything get posted that ridicules them. However, they take ample opportunity to ridicule and put down others.



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(no login)


December 30 2002, 12:25 AM 

You are the only ones using ridiculing and immature terms like "HEHEHE" and "NANANA". How old are you, really? Standing up for one's beliefs is not pornography. But, who are the change agents exploiting? Our youth? The Lord judge which is profane.

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(no login)

nanana back at you

December 31 2002, 6:54 PM 

Cathy, I was merely pointing out how pointless your post was by giving you the nanana. I am probably about your age. I have a child in high school. But that is beside the point. If you are really concerned about the youth, then get in the trenches and work with them as I do. You will find a completely DIFFERENT culture than you are talking about in your post. You need to lighten up a bit too.

This site is ALL about pornography. It takes the best and makes the worst out of it. It takes the love that Jesus gave us and makes it unholy. Think about that....


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Kevin Hamm
(Login KevinHamm)

Re: nanana back at you

January 2 2003, 12:28 AM 


I fear you have been with children too long. Come out of the trenches and enter into a mature discussion.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Prayerfully Onward,


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I am rubber.....
(no login)

Get Real

January 2 2003, 6:24 PM 

Kevin. Oh! You hurt me so! Speaking of childish responses...LOOK AT YOUR OWN! Get a real life and have some HUMOR in it.

And review your own quoted scripture. not provoke your children to anger....Most of what is on this site is driven by UNHOLY anger. You (the conservative ones) are in your opinion, loosing "the fight" for what you think is "the church", when in reality you are the ones sowing discord and disharmony so much so that you become jaded to your own misery.

God calls us to be creatures filled with the Joy of the Holy Spirit. We are to be filled to OVERFLOWING so that others who are around us that do not know Jesus, or who have left Him WANT to know what we have.

THAT is the most important thing! It is not that we profess we are doing it "right" or that we have the form down to a "science" but that we have love and JOY.

There is no joy in this "mudville" of a website. Only hate and discontent that I am sure stems from some sort of personal issue related to control. I pray for you in your misery. I, on the otherhand, am joyfull and elated that Christ calls me His own and that He saw fit to rescue me from my filth as a sinner. That is THE ONLY thing that matters! This website would do "the Body of Christ" a much better service if it was focused on the JOY of Christ rather than anger and hate.

and you are glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. hehehe

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Brent Bell
(no login)

interesting take......

April 2 2003, 6:03 PM 

I just found this site and in reviewing the letters I found out a few things:

1 it is obvious that the MANNER & SPIRIT in which the changes were implemented are as much the problem as the changes themselves.
2 whether or not you agree with either position, it apppears that Kevin does have a consistent amount of scripture to back each of his points---those who counter him(for right or wrong) don't seem to post many.
3 change is inevitable and usually painfull
4 if those who support change are truely the more open minded, and stronger brother(not saying either way at this point} they are ignoring the admonition against causing others to stumble due to their use of greater knowledge.

Having been at HIllcrest since 1995, and been present the night all of this seemed to come to a head, I will admit that until it happened I felt HIllcrest needed a jolt to wake it from its comfort zone. HOWEVER, I did not believe that what happened or how it happened was christian in purpose or effect. As one person put it " we liked it, so we did it. If that bothers you then maybe you aren't spiritually open enough. It felt great!" Openess means ALL perspectives. I and my family stayed only long enough to see if the ELDER process would turn out some scriptural leadership. We stayed because we felt it did....not because we agreed with all of them, but because all of them were willing to discuss issues with us and say things like," well, let's look that up." WIllingness to hear an opinion and then to examine it in scripture is what showed us the correctness of the choices made. We have taught here, and been involved here for nearly a decade. This is our family. Families have disagreements. Families have struggles. Overcoming them is what makes families stronger.

one final note....nowhere in the bible is a congregations spirituality, faith, or scriptural rightness linked to it's size or numeric growth. In fact nowhere is it ever said that a church ever grew because of anything it did. Some did shrink because of their actions. Growth is always stated as"and GOD added unto them, so GOD added....etc. Something to think about.


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Gary Cole
(no login)

Growth is only through God?

March 21 2005, 9:44 PM 


I know you are not advocating that we simply pray for growth and do nothing.

Faith and Works go hand and hand.

In my humble opinion the best way to determine if your Church is on the right
path is by fruit. You will know them by their fruits.

I rarely quote scripture but I often serve.

If a Church wants to grow it will through it's service and value in the community.

No its not in scripture because they were just getting started in 70AD and they
also had to watch out for persecution.

In my experience size is not ALL that matters but increasing it via without the
abandenment of sound doctrine not traditions is a command.

God Bless,


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(no login)

Re: Educated guesses?

November 15 2002, 12:15 AM 

Several years ago, when I first saw Lynn Anderson in action at Highland Church, the closest thing thing it reminded me of was "TV evangelism". Anderson even had a following like a TV preacher. Do we follow Jesus, or we are just sub-followers who are designated to follow some super discipline, who is an elite being with some special knowledge, special teaching, special authority, or special spirituality that we don't have? Wasn't this one of the errors of Gnosticism? Doesn't Gnosticism mean "secret" or "special" knowledge? After Anderson, then came the money. Just a few years ago, the elders at Highland just sat back when Herald of Truth took advantage of a sick, old lady. The Herald Of Truth got her to sign over her considerable money and financial assets and in exchange, promised to act as her guardian and to care for her for the rest of her life. Then Herald of Truth abandoned her. This made national news when reporters showed the deplorable, filthy conditions she was living in, with no one taking care of her, and no one seeing about her. She was living in terrible poverty, because she no longer had any money to care for herself. A relative got involved, and asked Herald of Truth to return the elderly lady's money, since they had not abided by their legal agreement to care for her. Herald of Truth refused, and denied that they had any responsibility for her. It went to court, the elderly lady got her money back, and the reputation of the whole Church of Christ suffered because of it, not just Herald of Truth and the Highland church and ACU. The elders of Highland were in charge of overseeing the Herald of Truth, and they let this happen. Is this how the Lord "works" in the congregations to spread his WORD? NO. Is this the result of His Holy Spirit? NO. Wasn't this the true result of all that super-spirituality Highland, Herald of Truth, and Anderson were supposed to have? Didn't Highland and Herald of Truth eventually show their true stripes? Peace, brother, peace? Jesus didn't say we would know them by their fine words or hype, He said we would know them by their Fruits (RESULTS of their work). And it is the change agents who end up breaking up congregations when they do their deeds, congregations that were formerly stable and reasonably "peaceful". Change agents break down congregations and introduce things that cause conflicts, divisions, and arguments that didn't exist before. Doesn't this alone tell you who they are, and what is behind it, let alone the content of their teaching? It is time that we look at the results, when change agents take over. Remember that we are living in the age of advertising. AND I wouldn't take up ACU's offer to provide on-campus housing for the elderly to live out their retirement years in exchange for their money. The elderly might find that they gave ACU their money and didn't get much in return.

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(no login)

...just so you know...

October 30 2003, 4:28 PM 

Since I have been doing some intial involvement in sales of annuitys as charitable gifts here at our insurance agency(check with an agent you trust--they are GREAT for both the donor and recieptient)I had heard this story and decided to check it out. First off, Herald of Truth is a separate entity from Highland. They have worked very closely together as Highland was the congregation that created this ministry, but they are separate! The elders at Highland have little or no say in the workings of HOT.
Secondly, the woman in question was NEVER promised nor did she ever have expectation of care to be provided by HOT. Gift annuitys do not work that way, never have, never will. There is a way to set up an interest return payment, but this is NOT a program in which an individual is recieving care. Thirdly, the family members who tried to sue HOT were NOT sueing on her behalf. They were sueing in an attempt to void her will on the basis of mental imcompetence so that they might get control of her money. One of the main reasons she donated her funds was her desire that NONE of her family have access to her estate---she felt they were undeserving of anything she had saved. She felt this way due to their terrbile treatment of her over the years. HOT did not return the money because they were following HER wishes. By the way she was found to be of very sound mind and the court upheld her decision.
I am far from a Highland fan. I worked for 18 months with an organization who's clients were members there. We tooked them on alternating weekends. We were and continue to be members at Hillcrest, and were extremely, I'll just say it...scared by some of the things we saw there. I say that so you will know that I am not just blanketly defending Highland. I most certainly am not! However, it is very important to me that if we critcized a congregation for it's actions, we had better be sure we have the facts--not the rumors--straight.


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Kevin Hamm
(Login KevinHamm)

Brent, that is my concern

November 2 2003, 5:31 PM 

I sometimes wish that all members at Hillcrest would attend one service at Highland to see where we will be in a few years.

I have been told that major changes to rectify the damage done have been made at Hillcrest, but I don't see it. Do you? Yes, we have a different preacher, but has anything else changed?

Two huge banners are still hanging on the wall declaring Hillcrest's Mission Statement. We still have the big screen and the Powerpoint presentations (which studies have shown has no effect on students' learning). There is still an element that continues to clap during certain songs. At least two of those "clapping" songs were sung during the morning service on the weekend of ACU's homecoming. During this same morning service "You are Beautiful (I Stand in Awe)" was sung, and as if on cue, most people stood when they started the chorus. There was singing during the Communion (something that doesn't really bother me, but I know is an area of contention for others). In fact, one couple informed me that that was one reason they would not be back to Hillcrest. It does bother me, however, when we are asked to meditate and then they sing while we are supposed to be meditating.

One good thing that I have noticed is that there is more Scripture being used in the Sermons. For that I am very thankful.

I guess what I am trying to convey to you is that I still believe that these seemingly small changes will lead Hillcrest down the path that Highland has chosen.

What are your thoughts?

Prayerfully Onward,


This message has been edited by KevinHamm from IP address on Nov 2, 2003 5:34 PM

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(no login)


November 3 2003, 11:49 AM 

I am sadden once again at the shallow dogmatic and unchristian at bretheren who would leave a congregation over a scriptureal non-issue such as singing during cummunion. Why can't people stay and defend their position if it's so right! These are the bretheren who are the reason the church is sliding towards liberalism. If you boldly proclaim the truth the "charisma-crowd" can't defeat you. If you pull the little 2 yr old style tantrum and "take my gtoys and go home!", you have given them the victory they nevr had to fight for! This is espeasically true when you leave over something you can't even defend with scripture! Tradition is important. Tradition has it's purpose. Tradition is NOT the gospel.
I agree with you that it would be good for people to visit other congregation occqasionally to see what is going on there. We might have less gossip and more real impact. Too many people are complaining about things they have heard second hand, and too few are upset about things they are unaware of. I am pleased that every Elder we placed this time has been willing to look at scripture when I have had a know that was not always the case! I think maybe your concern about the "repairs" may be premature. Quickly, shallow judgement got us into this mess, so I think it is extremely appropriate that the leadership take a slow,deliberate, carefully considered approach to the fix. Trying to take the time to work with Chris to come to an acceptable position was just what the scripture tells us to do with a brother we think is in error. That he was the preacher makes this doubly important. When they had exhausted all possiblity of repair, they let him go in a loving manner---preventing what could have been an extremely ugly situation. Getting rid of the banners would be fine with me, but it's not going to keep anyone from heaven any more than it brought anyone in. As I have stated before, the powerpopint doesn't bother me, it was the way it was presented that bothered me.(fyi..i've seen several studies saying it has either a positive or, at worst, nuetral effect on learning, and several elderly members have since old me that it is good to be able to see the words again---song books were toheavy for them and too small a print). Should it go? Let's make sure we are not throwing out the baby with the bath water. Plastic communion cups, sunday school, and even songbooks were new tools at some point!
The clapping can be annoying to me too, but I can't seem to find a scripture against it. Just like the "lemming-style" standing during 'You are Beautiful' I simply do not join in. Th problem really isn't these actions---it is when you a forced to take part in them that they truely become falsse doctrine. When I am told I am not "spiritual enough" because I do not clap...THEN I have a problem. Only when we have scriptural justification for our complaint should we begin to confront those issues.

Just my opinion,

p.s. I'm glad to report that MANY people have noticed, and appreciated, the return to the use of scripture from the pulpit!

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Kevin Hamm
(no login)

Brent, some clarification is in order

November 4 2003, 1:15 AM 

The couple that told me they would not be back were only visiting Hillcrest, they were not members of the congregation.

The problem I have with the banners is that they serve as a constant reminder to me of the insensitive way changes were being forced upon us. Do you know where the banners came from or who paid for them or who gave permission for them to be hung in the first place? No one I know does either. Yet, there they still hang. I never have understood the need for a mission statement anyway. Isn't the Bible enough?

As far as the PowerPoint is concerned, is it too much to ask for the words on the screen to match the words in the songbook? Twice this past Sunday there were differences. One of the songs had a completely different second verse.

The problem with clapping is that it is not authorized in worship. If this were an infrequent occurence, I would be more tolerant; however, when they set the mood of the whole service, I have a problem. It is known well ahead of time what will happen when these songs are chosen. Why do they insist on including them? The Bible doesn't say I can't use an airhorn either, but I dare say I would be allowed to use one more than once before I would be asked to leave. Extreme example, maybe, but same principle.

Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.

Psa 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him.

Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

I am told often what are not believed to be salvation issues. For my edification, perhaps we should study and discuss what salvation issues are.

Prayerfully Onward,


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Kindness Heals
(no login)

Thanks for sharing.

February 17 2013, 1:25 AM 

Thanks for sharing that you were mistreated by Baker Heights, too. Prayers Hugs Baker Heights had it's good but was cruel to me & my family. They broke my heart & almost broke my spirit but God was with me / us. God was & is my strength. God loves me & all people even when Christians forget to show God's love for one another. Blessings arr

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Jaymie Rossi
(no login)

Poor dear brother - Leave!

October 26 2002, 6:15 PM 

Hello Ken,

I can only say it's happening in New Jersey too.(see my addition to the "more churches" about Bethel Baptist in Cherry Hill, NJ for more info).I will say I leafed through the "Experiencing God" book in the lobby of our church (instead of listening to the service, which lacks the meat of the Word these days since our poor deceived pastor returned from Saddleback a year ago).The book is very subtle in that it denied the knowledge of God through His written Word, and instead tries to substitute "experiences" as though THEY were more trustworthy! We all know from Genesis that "the imagination of man is only evil continously, so while these deluded brethren will experience SOMETHING, the source of it will be any thing but holy! Not to mention the COVENANT at the end of the book.Not good at all!
I was hard pressed to leave - when the pastor came back from being Saddleback - indoctrinated, by his second "sermon", I was extremely upset with the turn his speach took. He started using words like "process", and "self esteem", and generally sounded like he was going to start a 12 step program to Christ.I wrote him a VERY scathing (un-Christian in tone) letter accusing him of being under a satanic influence.Little did I know I was right! It was mean in tone, and I later apologized and he accepted so I stayed.He then went back to Biblical exposition, and things looked better.But after about a year, stuff started to change again - surveys, less Biblical teaching (and they advocate the NIV, which is an abomination anyway), and finally the throwing out of some very distinguished members (see articles on dialectical materialism - it's exactly what is happening, but I'm not sure even the ones doing it understand what they are really getting into)I STILL didn't get it.But after I heard the Christmas music arrangements (a lot of rock beats, which I refuse to perform - I was a first soprano and soloist, which is another problem in the making), I knew I would have to do something.I asked God for an answer as to what was really going on, and He lead me in some amazing ways to the truth, and then to this website.
There is nothing you can do at your church but leave it.Be reviled of men and rejoice, for your reward will be great in heaven!
The Lord led us the very next weekend to a wonderful church where they know of this evil and avoid it totally.They also preach only from the KJV.They are out there - find one.In fact, ask Him to find one for you! And then do what this Jew who is in love with Jesus did - GET OUT!
"Come out of her, my people, lest ye be partakers of her plagues".
He isn't kidding.He holds us resposible to KNOW all the things He told us! (that's why "my people" have been in such hot water for so many millenia!).
As you may have guessed, I care very little about peer pressure or I wouldn't be following Him.So leap into His arms and get out before you miss the Big Event, should it take place in our lifetimes.He only PROMISES the Rapture to the church of Philadelphia.There may be others who get to go, but those who are aware of evil and do not choose to depart from it while there is still time ("while today is still called today") may have to remain.So leave the evil - while today IS still called today!
God bless you in your decision.
In Christ,
Jaymie Rossi

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Joe McKnight
(no login)

Very good

November 24 2002, 9:15 AM 

Brother Jaymie:
It is refreshing to read your post, it sound as if we have fought the same battles, just in different places. Welcome aboard. You seem to be carrying some of your Baptist luggage with you about the timing of the "Rapture", but as the Holy Spirit continues to teach you Scripture you see the error and the cost of this Baptist feel good lie.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

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Kevin Hamm
(no login)

Meeting Jan. 23

October 28 2002, 6:49 PM 

To my surprise and relief, it was not a heavily moderated meeting. There was no agenda. It was left
open for anyone to talk about anything they wished.

One member expressed his opinion that the church is made up of members with very diverse views.

I asked everyone if we all agreed that the Bible was the inerrent Word of God. Everyone agreed. So I brought up the fact that I had issues with the book "Experiencing God". I asked how many had read the book. Only two had(there were about 30 in attendance). I began by stating that the book:

1. Promotes the notion that God speaks to us in other ways besides the Bible.
2. Promotes teaching in contradiciton to the Bible in respect to miracles and the Gospel.
3. Promotes neo-orthodox theology (Scripture may become the Word of God if the reader has an experience with a passage).
4. Promotes a low view of Jesus Christ.
5. Scripture is misinterpreted and misapplied.

I also read many quotes from the book supporting my claims.

The moderator asked why I felt it necessary to mention this book. I stated that this was being used in a Bible study for women on Wednesday nights. He asked where. I said here at this church. He asked who was teaching it and I told him who. (I believe he asked these questions to give validity to my remarks. He was helping me give relevance to my statements.)

One member (who I now consider "the opposition") stated that I could not know what is being taught in that class if I wasn't attending the class. I stated that this is what is in the workbook and I didn't think I would be allowed in the class since it was a women's class. These are direct quotes from the book. He said anyone can make anything sound bad if taken out of context and by picking out certain passages the way I did. I stated that the whole book was like this. His wife spoke up and said that she had been in Bible studies with these two women before and that they would decide what parts of the book that they believed and what parts they did not believe.
She stated that there are good parts to the book and they didn't have to agree with all of it.

I stated that this was the danger with a book like this. There are truths and there are lies and it was difficult to discern between the two especially if the class includes members new to the faith that didn't know Scripture enough to distinguish between fact and fiction. My wife stated that this was the foundation of the church, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. This book questions the deity of Christ which shakes the very foundation of the church.

Another member asked what the criteria for Bible study was. Were there things that could be taught and things that couldn't? What things could not be taught? I stated that I would think that you wouldn't want to teach heresy (in hindsight, I don't believe I should have made such a bold statement. Then again, maybe I should have.). I was told that the two women teaching the class on "Experiencing God" were godly women and I
can be assured that they are not teaching heresy! I simply stated that everyone should read this book and decide for themselves. I told them it was in their local library.

There was much discussion about the Education Dept. needing supervision of the elders. There was little discussion about the change in worship (handclapping songs, powerpoint presentation, etc.). I didn't want to monopolize the discussion so I didn't bring up any new issues.

There was discussion about channels of communication between the elders and the congregation. Several were vocal in their support for the elders and the work they were doing.

Several members stated that they were thankful that we could get together and discuss issues like this. They may not always agree, but we can only grow when we discuss them.

The moderator stated that maybe the elders needed to get the pulse of the congregation on the changes to the worship service (we only have one service on Sunday morning). Possibly by way of a survey. He wants to know if these changes are being made to appease a small percentage of members.

There were two elders in the meeting and both thanked me for bringing this issue ("Experiencing God") before them. I sincerely believe that they didn't realize this was being taught in one of our classes (even though it was announced in the bulletin on Sunday morning). In all fairness, they had not read the book yet. I will follow up with an email to all elders with my notes on this book. Time will tell if they are open to more discussion. I believe God answered our prayers tonight. I truly believe some eyes were opened and that truth will prevail.

As I have stated before to Bobby Johnson, I believe there is one dominant elder with change on his agenda. He is a professor at a christian college and is the one pushing this change. There are other elders that agree with his philosophy, but they don't push it. I pray that this exchange tonite will open up opportunities for more discussion.

Keep us in your prayers as you are in ours,


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Paul Haley
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Kevin. Have you ever heard the gospel of Jesus?

April 4 2003, 11:36 PM 

Kevin, so you have a problem believing that the WORD (Jesus) could possibly speak to a person without referencing Scripture. Did the Father speak to Jesus only through Scripture? Is Jesus our example on how to live? Does the Bible serve as a testimony that God spoke directly to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Sarai, Hagar, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Samuel, Saul, David, Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jonah,just to name a few from the Old Testament? Or how 'bout after the ascension of Jesus, direct words to Peter, John, Agabus, Paul...I think a pattern in Scripture emerges that our God likes to talk to his children. Yes it is true that Scripture comes from God, in fact the main reason I believe God can and does speak directly to his children is because of the numerous teachings in the Bible ie. "my sheep will hear my voice" and all the examples of this very thing happening. In fact, I suggest that God dealing directly with his people from the inside out IS the gospel OF Jesus. Did you realize that even before the disciples understood anything about Christ's death, burial, resurrection and atonement for sins they were preaching the gospel? Jesus stated that he was sent to preach the gospel (Luke 4:43)while not discussing his death to the crowds at that point. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach this same gospel (Matthew 10:7). Jesus states in multiple passages that he had come to preach the gospel of the kingdom. I suggest to you that the kingdom being made available to all people from within their inmost being is the good news or gospel that Jesus came to announce to humanity. This is the gospel of Christ. Now granted the good news of how we enter the kingdom, the atoning blood of Jesus is also good news and is referred to in Scripture, primarily by Paul as gospel. They are both good news and I am not suggesting two gospels but rather the good news about what Jesus has done for us versus what Jesus said was good news. In Matthew 24 Jesus seems to focus attention on the good news of the kingdom, by saying that this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world before the end comes. So.... what I am trying to say is that the kingdom is within us (Luke 17:21), is to be sought first (Matthew 6:33), and cannot even be seen unless you are born again (John 3:3). Putting these together Jesus teaches that in all matters we are to first seek a reality (namely his kingdom) that is available to us from within that is spiritually discerned by people who have had a second birth (born again). What we need from God, from guidance, to faith, to comfort, to love... is available to us directly from the source. Obviously, if we are getting it from the true source it will not contradict Scripture. However if Jesus does not deal directly with you "And he walks with me and he talks with me... lovely hymn" I suggest that you do not know him, but rather only know ABOUT him. How can you know someone who has never communicated directly to you? I have read books about and by Abe Lincoln but I cannot say I know him. I can say I know Jesus. Do you?

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Brent Bell
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interesting response, let me just say this...

April 8 2003, 1:04 PM 

Let me first commend you for using scripture as a defense of your position. It shows your desire[as is mine] is to true to God in your beliefs. It is also MUCH more likely to be respected and listened to than those who start out with"na-na-na" or "he-he". I do have a few points to discuss with you about your response, though. The concept that the gospel of Christ comes from the dealings inside a person seems to conflict with what I read in the scripture. You said, "even before the disciples understood anything.....they were preachiong the gospel."Unfortunately, this is not what the scripture says at all. The disciples were sent out to the JEWS AND JEWS ONLY[matt 10:5] and not to preach the "new covenant" but "the Kingdom of Heaven is NEAR"[matt 10:7] They were in fact only reiterating the prophecies of the Old Testament to those who should have already known it. This was something that is repeatedly done during the OT. Besides, how could they have taught salvation through the blood of Christ when he had yet to be sacrificed? In fact your own reference[luke 4:43]is of Jesus saying he was sent to speak in the synagogues[v.44] The early christians were commended for "searching the scriptures daily" to see the truth of what was being taught.[acts 17:11] You also might want to look at several translations before hanging an arguement on a single word. In the NIV Luke 17:21.."the kingdom of God is within you" is also translated "among you". This is an important diferrence because it shows more clearly that Christ was refering to himself as the kingdom, not the spiritual kingdom. Let me take this even a step further. Far from coming from inside, scripture repeatedly tells us that God wants us to let him in. If he is already there how can we let him in? Man's heart is not clean in it's natural state.{mark 7:23 all these evils come from inside and make a man unclean}You might also want to look a little more closely at Christ as opposed to the Holy Spirit. The holy spirit is the one who aids us[romans8:26 In the same way the Spirit HELPS us in our weakness], it guides us but we are still resposible and in charge of our own decisions/actions. Our free will allows us to open our hearts to the message of the Lord, but he never forces us to think or feel anything. The heart of the Ethiopian Eunoch was obviously open and willing, but Phillip's instruction---not some inner feeling---helped him understand what to do for salvation. As I said before, your definition of "knowing" Jesus seems to be flawed in that we do not "experience Christ" in our daily lives, we are guided by the Holy Spirit[maybe this is what you meant to sya instead of Jesus]We do not communicate directly with Christ but THROUGH him pray to God. Scripture promises suffering and persecution for belivers, NEVER are we promised happy-happy joy-joy warm fuzzies.

That said......I do agree that it is possible that the church has dogmatically avoided more open acceptance of the work done by the Holy Spirit in our lives. Please let me know what you think about what I have said here. If I am wrong, I want to know.


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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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