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Paul Haley
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Hmm... let me ponder a while

April 9 2003, 6:01 PM 

Thanks for your response. Let me ponder a while. I have three children with another one scheduled to arrive soon so ponder time has lately been squeezed. Talk to you later. Paul

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Paul Haley
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Brent...Common ground?

April 12 2003, 8:35 AM 

Brent, thanks for your thought provoking questions. I will attempt to adress your questions and then ask you a few to determine if we possible have common ground before assuming something else.

You asked how could Christ and his disciples be preaching the gospel of "salvation through the blood of Christ when he had yet to be sacrificed"? You are right and that is my point. They weren't preaching that particular message yet, however what they were preaching was a message that Jesus stated was the gospel. Jesus stated that the reason he was sent was to go from town to town and preach the good news or gospel of the kingdom (Luke 4:43, Mat. 4:23, 9:35, Luke 8:1, ...) Jesus, as he continued to share this good news or gospel of the kingdom jumped forward to the time near the end and stated that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then the end shall come." Matthew 24:14, demonstrating the continuity between the gospel as he himself was declaring it and how it would be declared near the end of time. I agree with you that this message was initially directed toward the Jews but one day would be "preached in all the world." So it is clear in Scripture that Jesus himself and his followers (before they understood the atonement) WERE preaching a message that Jesus referred to as the gospel.

You made a good point about the different translations of "within" or "among" you in Luke 17:21. It does make a rather profound difference in the message of the verse depending on which word is used. What I found in researching the verse is there is quite a bit a respected, mainstream scholarship on both sides of this translation difference. KJV, NIV state "within", RSV states "in the midst", New English states "among". I also looked at several commentaries and found arguments for both translations. So... I believe the best thing to do in situations like this is to weigh in with other scriptures that speak to the topic and see which way the "weight" of Scripture tips the scale. The most significant clarifying teaching in Scripture concerning this issue, in my opinion, is the indwelling of man by God himself, man being the new temple of God, or as Paul stated, "Christ liveth in me" Gal. 2:20. The area around Kings in which their will is obeyed is their kingdom. Since our King, though he indwells all of creation, in some special way has chosen to live inside us, when we submit to his will the kingdom is within us emanating from the King himself. As we share our lives with the "called out" ones the inward reign of the King manifests "amongst us", the Body of Christ. So again, "within" and "amongst" seem to both have particular application.

Regarding your question of us having to let God in to our heart as opposed to Him already being there, I totally agree with your statement. He knocks, but we must open the door. Sorry, I must have been unclear in describing my belief in this area.

Regarding your question differentiating between the work of the Spirit in our lives versus Jesus, I say this. I do not deny a differentiating of their work in our lives but at the same time I believe it may be difficult to distinguish the difference due to the mystery of the Godhead and the awesome workings of God. For example, Jesus did teach that he must leave so another, the Spirit of Truth could come. But he also stated that he and his Father would come live with us, John 14:23, That his sheep would hear his voice and the above noted Paul's statement of Christ living in him. Also Jesus taught in John 16:14 that the Spirit would only show us what he has received from Jesus and the Father. So, when the Spirit works in ones life is it the Spirit, the Son or the Father? I think the answer is-YES! More could be said but I think that expresses the heart of the issue.

As far as your statement of us not "experiencing Christ", I think you were distinguishing that the messenger is the Holy Spirit to which I agree, but as stated above, the Spirit is only sharing what Jesus and the Father have given him so in essence, we are experiencing Christ through the Spirit (in a manner akin to which which Moses "experienced God" through an angel appearing in a bush, Ex. 3).

Also, you stated that we do not communicate directly with Christ but THROUGH him pray to God. I agree with the second part of your statement but not the first. Christ communicates directly to me THROUGH the Spirit.
I do not know how one could be a disciple (literally a student) of Christ if Christ does not directly communicate with them. If he doesn't communicate with us I guess we could be disciples of his teachings but not disciples of Him personally.

I hoped I addressed your questions, now a few for you.
Do you beleive that the Spirt communicates directly with you? For example, does He "lay" particular needs on your heart? Scripture is clear in teaching us to love our neighbor, but do you believe that the Spirit gives specific directions to which neighbor and to which need to serve? Does the Spirit "prompt" you to a particular action or convict you about a particular sin in your life?

Talk to you later, Paul

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Brent Bell
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....interesting..and I will respond...

April 21 2003, 3:26 PM 

I really enjoyed reading your response to my post....and I promise I will give you an extended reply as soon as I get free enough to give it the timew it deserves. Families sure do take a big(but fun) chunk of the day don't they?

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Kevin Hamm
(Login KevinHamm)

Nothing New, Paul

May 3 2003, 11:06 AM 


Sorry to take so long to respond, but life is hectic even when you don't have children in the home.

Could you please give me references in Scripture where God speaks directly to those you mentioned?

In reference to "my sheep will hear my voice", I offer the following:

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto
him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou
be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed
not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they
bear witness of me.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my
sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall
never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them
out of my hand.

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than
all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of
my Father's hand." John 10:24-29

The key to learning what "My sheep hear my voice" means can be found in verse 6.

"This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they
understood not what things they were which he
spake unto them."

"My sheep hear my voice" is a figure of speech. I suggest to you that it means to hear the message of salvation. These verses say that you hear his voice BEFORE you are saved. They do not say that you must be saved and have a personal relationship with God before you can hear his voice. Isn't that the same line the faith healers use when they fail to heal someone? "You're not healed because you don't have enough faith." That is false teaching.

Your statement: "What we need from God, from guidance, to faith, to comfort, to love... is available to us directly from the source. Obviously, if we are getting it from the true source it will not contradict Scripture" sounds like Vineyard theology.

"I also said that I believed in words of knowledge and that God can and does give personal words of direction to believers today that cannot be found in the Bible. I do not believe that he gives direction that contradicts the Bible, but direction that cannot be found in the Bible." Jack Deere, Vineyard Position Paper #2

Here is a link to the paper:

This is the neo-orthodox view that I mentioned when discussing "Experiencing God". This theology has its roots in the writings of Karl Barth. Barth taught that Jesus was the Word of God and that the Bible was just a WITNESS to the Word. He taught that the Bible did not become the Word of God unless God spoke directly to us through it. This belief also means that a book, a magazine, a newspaper, a church bulletin, a poem, a song, a hunch, a dream, a feeling, etc., can all become the Word of God if God speaks to us through them. Is this what you believe?

If you could reference Chapter and Verse in Scripture that supports your position, I will gladly study them.

Prayerfully Onward,


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Paul Haley
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One question...and a few references

May 7 2003, 3:41 PM 

Hello Kevin. One question. When Jesus walked this earth as a man, was Scripture his only way to hear his Father?

Here's the references you requested. Most of these people received multiple messages (some sort of supernatural communication- direct words, angelic messengers, visions, spirit guided prophetic utterances, etc.)however, I am including just one reference from each as an example.

Adam- Gen. 3:9
Noah- Gen. 6:13
Abraham- Gen. 15:1
Sarai- Gen.18:15
Hagar- Gen.16:9
Jacob- Gen. 32:24-30
Joseph- Gen. 40:8, 41:16 (acknowledged God as source of dream interpretations)
Moses- Ex. 3:4
Aaron- Ex. 4:27
Samuel- 1 Sam. 3:4
Saul- 1 Sam. 10:10
David- 2 Sam. 5:19
Job- Job 38,39,most of 40,41
Isaiah- Isaiah 7:3
Jeremiah- Jer. 11:1
Jonah- Jonah 3:1-2
Peter- Acts 10:13
John- Rev. 1:10-11
Agabus- Acts 11:28
Paul- Acts 27:23-24

This list was off the top of my head and is not exhaustive. However it will suffice because this particular list serves as a testimony to God sending direct messages to people in all covenantal periods and in times of "pre-Scripture" and during times when Scripture was established and available.


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Brent Bell
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good examples...but lets look closer...

July 7 2003, 12:09 PM 

Deepest apology for the extreme delay in responding to your earlier reply, but things have been hectic! goesa VERY brief shot-gun approach to a couple of things.
First, yes I do believe the spirit can and does put things on my mind and heart. Whether or not I listen or act on what it places there is up to me. Never is this a situation where anything other than my own free will decides my final action, and never is this a contradiction to scripture. In other words, the spirit gently reminds me of a current opportunity to act upon those things that my study should have already made clear to me. As an imperfect[just ask my wife! ha-ah] human I tend to lose focus on those things which are important. The spirit nudges me gently as if to say,"hey..did you miss this or are you just ignoring it". I know this is not the way you might hear a gifted preacher explain the concept, but it is the best way I can explain the way I "experience" the holy spirit. As for "experiencing Christ", thanks for your clarificattion. Seems we were mostly in a semantic misunderstanding and actually agree on this point. Unfortunately, the way a person says something can be more confusing than what they say. My only difference with you statement can be best summed up by saying that I have been a student of the constituion, but never met Jefferson. My wife has been a student of Adlerian psychology and Alfred Adler died before she ever started her masters. Maybe this is semnatics too, but I think understanding the difference is important.
As for your examples of directly speaking with God/Christ, all of those not under the Old Law had been in the phsyical presence of Christ. These are also the only ones ever capable of "miracles". Obviously, the physical presence of Christ was and extrodinary difference maker!
By the way, using your own thoughts from earlier, Christ didn't recieve instruction from God only through scripture.....because even as a man he was part OF God. In a way he was speaking to himself.
Can't wait to hear your responses. This constant challenging of why I believe and do what I do is an outstanding way to improve my own strength of faith. It may even show me something I have been wrong about so that I can correct an error in my actions.

take care,

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Chuck Sonn
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good examples...agreed

July 12 2003, 7:44 PM 


I agree with your explanation of how Spirit works in the life of a believer. His role is comfort and counsel. I find myself reacting just like you. It's all my choice how I choose to act. Spirit promts my spirit with opportunities to serve Him. I pray for wisdom to understand what opportunity looks like. His Word is my filter to grow in understanding and better discern movement in Spirit. There is never a contradiction between Spirit and Word. When there appears to be difference is when my spirit is fed as I hunger and thirst after righteousness. He always opens the eyes of my heart and mind with the Truth.

blessings as you continue your walk with Him. If I don't see you here in this life, I'll see you in heaven.


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Paul Haley
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July 13 2003, 11:10 PM 

Hello Brent, thanks for the response. I am trying to process what you wrote and make sure I understand exactly what you mean. You made the statement that you believe the Holy Spirit can place things on your heart and mind while not violating the principles contained in Scripture (I agree). This statement seems to suggest that you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to people on any subject He feels needed, whether they are "Biblical" topics or not while never violating Scripture. However later on in your letter you stated that the Holy Spirit shows you things that you should have seen in your study, which to me implies His communication is not only limited to maintaining Scriptural principles but also to biblical topics. Please let me know if either of these accurately describe your belief? Thanks for allowing me to question you. Paul

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Brent Bell
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Sorry about the delay...

September 15 2003, 5:39 PM 

JUst now found this response, so sorry for the delay getting back to you! I guess the easiest way to respond is by saying that whatever I do(in word or in deed----everbody hum along now!ha-ha)I do all in the name of the Lord....or at least try to. So to answer you, I don't see a contradiction in saying the spirit can nudge me toward something, because EVERYTHING is impacted by what I study in the word. Does that make it more clear?


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Paul Haley
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Spirit of truth

September 29 2003, 4:24 PM 

Well, that sounds good. I don't agree with all you stated in previous posts but... As long as you believe the "Spirit of truth" can guide you into "all truth" (John 16:13) and the anointing that lives in you can teach you (1 John 2:27)... you don't need me trying to teach you anything. Paul

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(no login)

so are you saying....

October 7 2003, 3:38 PM 

So Paul....I now hear you saying that you understand and accept the position that the Holy Spirit DOES NOT teach a believer, but redirects or reminds them of those things which they find in the scriptures? That's not what I originally understood you to be saying.

just wondering,

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(no login)

How did you hear that?

October 8 2003, 7:44 PM 

Hello Brent. I am not sure how you heard that. It appears to me that John 16:13(quoted above) clearly indicates that the Spirit DOES teach (all truth) and I do not read anything about Him being limited to Biblical topics. So, to answer your question, I believe the Spirit most definately may remind me of something I have read in the Bible but he is equally capable of reminding me of other things I have read, or said or done or seen etc... or even of things yet to come(again in John 16:13) that is,leading me into all truth.

The Spirit is able to speak on topics completely not found in scripture without violating any principles in scripture. Do you see that? An analogy may be helpful. You and I are having a discussion over the internet. To this point we have mentioned nothing about US law indicating what is legal or illegal in regards to the internet. However we have not violated any principles found in the US law. So we have not been acting "apart" from US law yet we have not been talking about it. In a similar manner the Spirit may communicate with us on specific topics that cannot be found in chapter and verse yet He will not violate a principle found in chapter and verse.

Many "Bible based" believer's reject the idea of God's current, real time communication because they feel it would compete or lessen the authority of the Bible. The irony of this "Bible based" belief is that it is not in the Bible.


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Mark Waggoner
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Re: How did you hear that?

October 9 2003, 11:55 AM 

Please excuse my intrusion into this thread but I want to address the following statement you made in the preceeding post:

"Many "Bible based" believer's reject the idea of God's current, real time communication because they feel it would compete or lessen the authority of the Bible."

I absolutely reject the idea of "current, real-time communication from God" - apart from the Bible. I do not reject the idea of the operation of the Holy Spirit in ways we cannot understand, such as the intercession He provides for believers when they pray. One question for those who do believe in the "current, real-time communication with God" is; if this is true - why is there so much division???? Is God the God of confusion? Not so, according to I Corinthians 14:33. Our sole source of authority can only be the Bible, otherwise, "everyone will do what is right in their own eyes" and will justify their actions by some warm, fuzzy feeling attributed to the operation of the Holy Spirit. True unity can only be attained through obedience to God's word, not man's feelings.

Mark Waggoner

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(no login)

Re: Re: How did you hear that?

October 10 2003, 6:19 PM 

Mark. Your intrusion is welcomed. You expressed your opinions clearly. Can you provide scriptural basis for them? Paul

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(no login)

Let me be more specific

October 12 2003, 11:01 PM 

Mark, you stated, "I absolutely reject the idea of 'current, real-time communication from God' ". I was just wondering from what chapter and verse in the Bible you base this belief on. Paul.

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Mark Waggoner
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Re: Let me be more specific

October 15 2003, 8:45 AM 

I asked the question, which did not get answered; "that if the Holy Spirit does communicate directly with man today, why is there so much division?" I've also read over some of the prior posts concerning modern day, direct intervention of the Holy Spirit in order to understand just what is being debated here. Let's look at the Scriptures to examine part of the nature of the Holy Spirit.

First of all, if one believes in modern day, direct communication with the Holy Spirit, one must also believe in modern day miracles. These signs were manifestations of the Holy Spirit in order to confirm or authenticate what was being taught (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:3-4). The Corinthians were engaged in childish arguments over which signs were superior. Paul addressed this but also tells us that these miraculous signs would go away when the perfect comes (I Corinthians 13:8 + 10). The "perfect" was the complete revelation of God, which was still unfolding at that time. Once the revelation to man from God was complete, the need for signs was made obsolete. The Holy Spirit guided the apostles into all truth (John 16:3) in a miraculous manner and guides us into all truth by the written word. God's word is final and we do not require the Holy Spirit to reveal anything further.

Some attempts have been made to circumvent the Scriptures by claiming modern day Holy Spirit inspiration. This is nothing more than a self-deluding influence (II Thessalonians 2:11-12) that "allows" one to "do what is right in his own eyes". When heart takes over from the head and subjectivity takes priority over Scripture, anything is possible! Others seek to evade all personal responsibility while searching for emotional security. We are told to "hold fast the word" (Philippians 2:16) and "follow the pattern" (Philippians 3:17). How can one "do all in the name (authority) of the Lord" (Colossians 3:17) without knowing what is revealed in scripture? Jesus says that we can "know the truth" (John 8:32) and that God's word is "truth" (John 17:17). The Holy Spirit revealed this to all men, including us. He did this directly to the apostles and through the written word to all who followed that generation.

I hope that this will be of help in your study. Peter tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient for "all things pertaining to life and Godliness". This is a key verse to remember, not only concerning scriptural authority, but in how the Holy Spirit works through us today. If we follow His inspired word today, in religious matters or non-religious situations, is He not working through us?

Mark Waggoner

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(no login)

Divine Power

October 20 2003, 11:28 PM 

Mark-I understand what you believe because I once believed the same. I will attempt to expose the weaknesses in the conclusions you have made regarding the passages in your post.

First, let me address your question regarding divisions among believers. You seem to have an assertion couched in your question that division proves that God no longer speaks directly to men and that unity is impossible unless God remains silent and lets what he said 2000 years ago stand alone. First of all, I believe God knows how to communicate with men then and now in ways that create and maintain unity. Jesus taught of a unity that comes when different groups of people listened to the same VOICE, John 10:16. Secondly, there are multiple causes of division and they originate in many camps, those that believe in God's current, speaking voice and those that do not. For example, we know of "pentecostal types" who divide themselves over manifestations of gifts as well as "fundamentalist types" who divide themselves over hand clapping and "order of worship". Division is a frequent visitor in both; therefore, it is not logically sound to suggest it is limited to those who believe in current "rhema" of God. Additionally, let's just say for the sake of discussion that God does still directly communicate with men; well...division could be caused by people such as yourself who are not listening due to doctrinal positions. Lastly, God: perfect, us: not. He may speak perfectly but we do not hear perfectly; boom: problems, possibly division-yet it does not rule out direct messages.

Regarding modern day miracles. Your assumption is that they were to affirm the message; once the message affirmed, bye-bye miracles. Let's analyze your logic. A message was given (true); miracles performed (true); the miracles authenticated the message (true); the only purpose for miracles is to authenticate messages (not found in text, false). Did you see it? The last step in your thought process is not supported in Scripture. You are attempting to make a positive statement from a standpoint of Scriptural silence. You have violated a belief held by many within the church of Christ that one is to remain silent where Scripture is silent. A correct logical assumption to learn from these historical events is that when God wants to get something done, miracles are an option for Him. Your logic in a different setting: A man comes from a foreign land and has never seen or heard of pick-up trucks. I tell him that pick-ups exist and can be used to move furniture. I then leave and return driving my pick-up and in view of the foreign man load my truck with furniture and drive away. This foreigner now analyzes the events with your logic: I believe pick-ups exist (true); I believe pick-ups can be used to move furniture (true); What I observed authenticated the message (true); I believe that pick-ups can only be used to move furniture (false). I hope you see the flaw in the logic. Furthermore, the Bible reveals other motives, purposes for miracles, one example = compassion, Matthew 14:14. Lastly, your assumption suggests that first century unbelievers needed authenticating miracles whereas modern day ones do not.

Regarding your assumption that the "perfection" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13 is the completion or canonization of Scripture,I invite you to consider the following. If it is true that canonization of Scripture is the "perfection" spoken of, then the following is true:
-your and my understanding in the truths of God far exceed that of the apostle Paul's. In fact, our understanding compared to his would be "face-to-face", his a "poor reflection"; ours "fully" even to the degree that God (implied) knows us, his "in part". The apostle Paul's understanding, whom God used to pen one third of the New Testament, is "childish" compared to our "as a man" understanding. Are you willing to compare yourself like that to the apostle Paul? Are you willing to say that you understand the truth of God as well as God knows us!?

If you are still convinced the completed Bible is this "perfection" then consider this. If your assumption is true then Paul is describing the current state of himself and all believers due to the partial condition of Scripture. Because of partial Scripture, the believers were thinking as children, seeing only dimly, knowing in part. Does this fit with the teachings of Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "...All Scripture(what is currently available implied) is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may (think as a child, see dimly..NO) be THOROUGHLY equipped for EVERY good work".

Briefly you mentioned "hold fast the word". I was wondering if you had considered the fact that in Scripture, "word of God" is not always referring to Scripture. For example, in Luke 3:2 we read the "word of God came unto John". I don't think a scroll flew out of the sky and hit him in the head. If you have not done so already do a word study on "word". Read the definitions of "logos" and "rhema". Ponder why the Spirit uses logos at times and rhema at times. Truth is lost when too quickly thought found.

Lastly, you misquoted Peter when you stated "Peter tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient for all things pertaining to life and Godliness". This is revealing mistake, Peter actually stated in 2 Peter 1:3 "According as his DIVINE POWER hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness...". then you continued by stating about the misquoted verse, "This is a key verse to remember, not only concerning scriptural authority, but in how the Holy Spirit works through us today," to which I say, amen! Just remember, it is divine power he is talking about.


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Brent Bell
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I think I see our difference....

October 21 2003, 10:51 AM 

At first I thought we were merely having a semantic disagreement, but now I think I see where we differ in understanding. First, the scripture you sight does NOT use the word teach as in a form of new instruction. In fact, it is translated guide insome texts because it is NOT new knowledge that the Holy Spirit is bringing! You must also recognize that in this passage Jesus goes on to to say..."I have been speaking FIGURATIVELY, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly..."[vs.25] So to say that vs 13 declares the Holy Spirit to be the source of some brand new knowledge seems to be in error.
When I read your analogy, however, I saw some similarity to what I had been saying. I DO agree that specific circumstances and items are not directly covered in scripture. I'll go even further. I think this is one on the main reasons we have the presence of the Holy Spirit. To help us apply the concepts/princples of the gospel to our everyday lives. I have never worn sandals in my life. That makes shaking the dust from them a difficult task.....the concept, however, is very easy to translate to present day life. If the guidance the Holy Spirit offers me daily is what you call "real time communication" then I say "AMEN!", but if you are saying that there are new commands/principles given to us by the Holy Spirit that are not simply an application of ideas already in scripture...I have to say you are wrong!
Please let me know if I am once agian misunderstanding your position. I wish this type of challenging scriptural discussion happened more often in the church. People might actually have to study their Bible regukarly...wouldn't that ruffle a few feathers! Ha-HA!


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(no login)

Re: I think I see our difference....

October 22 2003, 10:40 PM 

Brent. Yes, I think we are on the same page when it comes to the principles and doctrines being established and nothing is to be added. It is all in the application. It reminds me of God in the garden giving Adam knowledge of good and evil yet telling him not to feed from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Paul

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Kevin Hamm
(no login)

Concerning Miracles

October 22 2003, 11:59 PM 


The purpose of miracles:

Mat 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Mat 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Jhn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The danger of believing miracles exist today:

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

If miracles were performed for any other reason than to confirm the Word, why was Trophimus not healed?

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Why was Timothy not healed?

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Prayerfully Onward,


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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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