I am a member at Hillcrest Church of Christ in Abilene, TX. We have been experiencing similar problems in our church that Madison Church of Christ has.
I have read everything I can get my hands on about the Church Growth Movement including your website and links.
In an attempt to reconcile differences in our church, the elders requested that everyone sign up for a meeting on Wednesday night (these meetings were
spread over several weeks in order to keep the groups small). The idea was to have a representation from each class at each meeting. Two elders would be present in each meeting and they would have one moderator. The only stipulation put on the meeting is that it has to be "positive".
Did you experience anything like this at Madison? I know the moderator in our meeting and I don't think it is an attempt at the Delphi Technique.
How can I get my points across about the error of the changes without getting negative? Do you have any ideas? Our meeting is tomorrow night, Wed Jan 23, 2002.
About 3 years ago Hillcrest adopted the Purpose Driven Church model. In August, 2001 we hired a new pulpit minister (who was selected by a selection committee and approved by the elders, there was no vote by the congregation). It wasn't until the end of September that we realized something was wrong. Quite a few new songs were sung during the Sunday morning worship service that included alot of hand clapping. There arose such a furor that the next Sunday only older, more traditional songs were sung. The Sunday after that it was mixed, old and new. Also during this time, Brent McCall, a church growth expert conducted a survey of the church. My wife and I were dealing with her mother being in the hospital when the survey was given to the church, so we didn't know what the questions were, but the next Sunday there was another big explosion. We were told that the survey's questions were too vague (could be answered any number of ways depending on how you interpreted the questions) and that they were terribly skewed.
My suspicion is that there are a few elders with ties to the university here, Abilene Christian University, that lord over the other elders. The more conservative elders are intimidated by them because they have PHD's. This is just an educated guess on my part.
Quite a few people who supported this change have left our church (some key people however are still here). I don't know if they wanted to change faster or if they truly did not want to be involved in dividing the church. Another possibility is that they have only left temporarily and will return when things are going more their way. It's all so bazaar.
I was thinking along the same lines for the meeting tomorrow night as far as reading applicable Scripture. I believe only the Word might possibly get through to these people. I also plan on addressing the problems with the workbook "Experiencing God" since it is being taught in one of the Ladies' classes on Wednesday nights. I just wonder if the elders have even read it.
We recently found out that a worship committee has been appointed by the pulpit minister to help design the worship service. The elders agreed to this committee and gave them much freedom including skits. There is no elder serving on this committee at this time, but there was one serving on it when it was first formed. This elder is the one that "represents the post-moderns" (his words). Who would have thought?
We had a meeting with the elders about 2 weeks ago on a Sunday night. It was open to the whole church. Only about 20 people attended (not including the elders) out of a membership of about 800. Nothing was accomplished as far as I know. But then you already guessed that. It was after this meeting that I read about the Delphi Technique and realized that one of the elders was using it during that meeting. The same elder that has a PHD, is a professor at ACU and served on the worship committee.
The week before this meeting open to the whole church, a small group of people wanting this change met with the elders. I understand it lasted until midnight and they made a list of five (5) things they needed from the elders:
1. Elders' public commitment to spiritual and numerical growth
2. Public commitment to being led by the Holy Spirit through prayer and tangible evidence of it
3. Each elder take a group of members and visit them to understand spiritual needs, including those people who have already chosen to leave
4. Immediate selection of more new elders so these spiritual needs can be met 5. Small-group study by the elders of a book on spiritual leadership, such as They Smell Like Sheep, Experiencing God, and Spiritual Leadership
We were only allowed to talk until 9PM. That definitely did not sit well, but I think we already knew that what we had to say would fall on deaf ears. I genuinely don't think some of the elders know where this thing is headed. Or if they do, they don't know how to stop it.
That's a brief description of what's going on here. I don't know all the details since most of it is covert. Now, it would seem that they want us to focus on "getting along" although they are the ones that caused the division. But I'm not telling you anything new.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't have know about Madison Church of Christ if I hadn't overheard someone say something about an article in the Christian Chronicle. That's when I started doing my research. You are providing a
tremendous service for all who seek the truth.
Thank you for your patience and sharing your wisdom.
About 5 years ago my grand daughter went to ACU. It was such a thrill for me. She was grounded in the faith and I thought this would be a great thing.
I found out about 3 years later that she was attending a Community church and they were playing musical instruments etc. I asked her how she ever got started in such a thing and she told me that this is where her professors worshipped.
I have never been so disappointed and upset. I thought the ACU professors had to be members of the Church. They were also teaching that you did not have to pray in Jesus name and various other things.
Someone should examine the professors that are teaching at ACU.
I have a grandson at UTAustin. He refused to go to ACU and I am so grateful.
I am very worried about this stuff at Richland Hills Church of Christ as I went there for about 20 years.
WHAT IS HAPPENING TO CHRISTIANS??????
I used to live Merkel 15 mi. west of Abilene from 1978-1987 and ACU had false teachers in their bible dept. decades before that. The late Foy Wallace,Jr. warned the church of their diggression back in the fifties. Wake up brethern! God's people perish for lack of knowledge!
I attended th Farragut Churchof Christ in Farragut, Tenn. until about 2 years ago. About 70 of us left because of the elders attitude and also a preacher from Texas. Now I understand that an additional 30 members are very unhappy. They seem to what to join the community church concepts. They are learning from the change agents in Nashville. I dont see any hope unless they are draged from the church building . Pray for th Lords Church. I was a deacon and finance chairman.
My 83 year old father was recently Baptized at the Fourth Ave Church of Christ in Frankin, TN. The preacher there introduced him to the Congregation and lied about his age. He is 83 years old and the Preacher said he was 75. My father was led to his decision to be babptized by this Preacher. Due to the recent division in that Church I am concerned about the Preacher's honesty. Can you tell me the name of the Preacher from Texas that you referenced in your e mail to ConcernedMembers.com/ Thank you
hmm... gossip has always been a seed satan plants. It happens when a Brother, or Sister, begins giving his version of what happened, based on "educated guesses". It happens when a person begins assigning motives to the leaders God has placed in his life...motives based not on faith in God, but on doubt in one's self..and others.
Change is difficult. Ever wonder why the Hebrews began complaining so shortly after they were freed from the slavery of the Egyptians....change is difficult.
I grew up in Abilene. Attended Baker Heights CoC until the hypocrisy and insanity of small minded, immature spirituality drove my family away. We looked at many churches (all CoC, of course). We settled on Highland CoC. Now...before you role your eyes, Lynn Anderson was preaching then. And never a more conservative group of Elders were there in the CoC. But something different was happening then...Lynn Anderson was doing something new. He was worshipping God, not the Church of Christ. He was learning and teaching from the entire Bible..not just learning and teaching the Church of Christ party line. And the Elders at that time, they began to learn to do something they had never really learned to do before; trust God.
Until that time, they thought they had been trusting God; but they came to see that what they had been doing was trusting the traditions of the Church of Christ, and saying God enough times to make themselves feel justified. And they used the scripture they needed to keep all their traditional Church of Christ ducks all lined up.
But with Lynn Anderson, they had a new model; a genuine, full faith Christian; born and raised Church of Christ, and committed to its heritage and body, but still.... and a full faith Christian. They saw a new way to read the Bible... not to pull out scripture and post it next to a stand...but to read it, in big parts; find the stories. They learned to let the Bible change them into 'new creatures', instead of using verses in it like sticks, to prop up the old person.
I haven't attended at Highland in almost thirty years. My parents still do. They have been hard set by many of the changes they have seen. But they learned a long time ago, when Lynn Anderson was there, that it was God they were to trust; it was His Word they were to seek. So they have managed the changes, and believe it or not, they have found their faith, and their lives enriched by it. You see, God has a plan for us all; and it rarely matches ours. When we cling to him, change happens! And it is hard! It often looks strange and scary...even wrong at times. But we cling to him!
What do we learn when we cling to God? We learn that he never changes; that we can depend on Him when our world seems to be lost. We can find a good word, when we let him speak through us. We learn that we were focused on the wrong things when we worried, and that when we focused on Him, everything worked out fine.
I dont know what will happen at Hillcrest. I do know what wont happen; God wont abandone anyone who clings to him; and how will you know who is clinging to him? well...they wont be gossiping, that's for sure..
Since the changes taking place at Hillcrest Church of Christ were being made behind closed doors, all that was available were educated guesses. My educated guesses were not just based on what I saw, they were based on what I was told by credible sources on the inside.
You can call it gossip all you like. It is no different from you making comments about Highland based on what your parents have told you.
The post that you are referring to was originally an email to the Concerned Members at Madison Church of Christ. I believe it was an honest assessment of what was taking place at Hillcrest Church of Christ at the time. I did not state as facts anything that I did not know to be a fact and they were not intimate in nature. The information I relayed was not unverified and was not from uncertain origin (that is the definition of gossip in case you were wondering).
As for the comment on motives of leaders not based on faith in God, I can only add that the "leader" mentioned in my post that aligned himself with the post-moderns was not reaffirmed by God.
Change has nothing to do with the problems we are facing. I work in an industry that changes every day. I am not allergic to change. When changes are made to conform to man and not to God, then I have a problem.
As for Lynn Anderson and the Highland Church of Christ, I'll leave that to God. Lynn Anderson's thoughts are well published and Highland Church of Christ's recent changes are not in keeping with Scripture. Only time will tell.
I was curious to what I would read on this website. When I first learned that it even exsisted my heart dropped as if some type of new pornagraphy had been offered to man in an attempt to guide him away from God. THAT IS WHAT THIS WEBSITE IS ABOUT! There are people in Abilene, TX and even in your home church that need to hear about the love and saving grace of Jesus Christ. I know this because I live in Abilene and my wife and I are on staff at Hillcrest. I teach the kids at Hillcrest and let me tell you something YOU PEOPLE SHOULD BE ASHAMED. Many of the kids at this congregation are already caught in such a web of Christian hypocrisy and complacency. Do you know how discouraging it is to speak to a group of kids about Christ when most of them have been raised to just be "church goers". I try my best to stay in line with God's will through the guidance of His Word. The one thing I do not do is let PRIDE in myself come in and tell me that I must have things figured out about God than everyone else does. I'm am sorry if I seem harsh, but brother you need to get right, realized that ALL (even you) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and start taking your part in the Great Commision of Christ. If you would like to talk to me you may call the office for my number and I would love to meet with you as a loving Christian brother.
I don't know about Kevin, but I always get a little nervous when someone tells me they are going to Pray for me and gives me a tongue lashing in public.
Knowing Kevin, I'm sure he has forgiven you.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Dec 11, 2002 9:24 PM
I was rebuked by one of the elders in a very public forum. Although my name wasn't mentioned, he knew that I knew who he was referring to.
That ex-elder no longer attends Hillcrest.
Mark 6:11
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
...and yet is not that exactly the way in which Paul handled his times of confrontation? He begins with a greeting; often in the form of expressed prayer (consider both 1 Corinthians 1:3-9 and Galatians 1:3-5). In both of these letters he then immediately goes into a very blunt "public tongue lashing" or as others refer to it, confrontation. I find it interesting that those who would post claims about errancy would be so quick to display chagrin at someone turning the lens of accountability around. Remember brothers, even at the end of the tongue lashing in 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 16:19-24), Paul never questioned the fact that these people were his family - not to be dismissed or disfellowshipped, but loved and prayed for...tongue lashing or no.
There is a difference between being admonished for something you have actually done and something that was done TO you. I was "admonished" for the latter, but that was long, long ago.
Know that I have been praying for you for over a year
December 12 2002, 3:05 AM
James,
I'm thankful that members from Hillcrest are reading this website.
I began praying for the elders and the staff over a year ago when the change agents infiltrated Hillcrest Church of Christ. I pray that they will abandon this manmade scheme to "improve" upon God's plan. I pray that they will be more sensitive to the members' consciences and convictions. I pray that they will stop jumping on the bandwagon of every fad that comes along in the name of "church growth". I pray that they will stop bombarding our youth with "feel good" psychobabble. I pray that they will return to God's Word. I pray that they will FIND God's Word.
This website exists to educate the brotherhood about the changes that are taking place in the church. There is nothing pornographic about it and your implication of such is unacceptable.
I have never claimed to be without sin as you seem to imply in your post and those that know me, know that I am not a prideful person (another implication you make in your post). You, sir, don't even know me, yet you make these sweeping accusations and then offer an invitation to meet me as a "loving Christian brother"? Please accept my humble decline to your invitation.
If you would like further correspondance, you are welcome to post any questions you may have in this forum. I will be glad to answer them.
After calling the church office (the first time they did not know who you or your wife were!) and asking around, I finally found out that you were a youth intern. Part of being an intern is to learn. I hope that I am about to teach you something very important. One should NEVER judge another person or that persons motives. You do not know Kevin. You do not know Kevin's heart. You do not know where Kevin is in his walk with God. You do not know his personal or family situations. If Kevin happened to be a weak (HE IS NOT...THANK GOODNESS!) Christian, he might have taken your letter to heart and been turned away from the church totally. You may be new to Hillcrest (and I am giving you that benefit) and are not aware that things are not always as they appear!
Now to your mention on the youth at Hillcrest...
I have had children in the youth program there. They were raised to be neither complacent nor just church goers. Teenagers go to church and participate where they enjoy the youth minister, the other teens and the programs going on. They do not report to their home congregation (the one that their parents MAKE them go to on Sunday!) every Christian work that they perform. My son quit going to Hillcrest the first Sunday that he moved out of our home. He did quit the youth group during his Sr. year. He saw a group that was being led by someone he did not respect. Teenagers were chosen to be leaders. These were the same teens that were leading very unchristian lives outside of church. The teens certainly knew what was going on...should the leaders not be as informed? More thought should have been taken on who would lead our youth! Oh, yeah, my son has not left the church or felt defeated by the ongoing problems at Hillcrest...he is now a youth and family minister major at ACU and I am not ashamed of him! I believe that is the same major that you have. I will also warn him of the dangers in judging people.
I will also try not to judge you for being so harsh to Kevin and talking ugly about the youth. You are supposed to be there to help with problems...not to be judge the problem. I am sure that in your heart, you were just venting!
Cathy, you are doing the same thing to James as was done to Kevin. You judged the "youth leaders" the same way James judged Kevin. In some circles, they call that hypocrisy....
You don't know James, and he was not being ugly to the youth. I am a youth worker, and what he says is true about YOUTH IN GENERAL which includes the youth of our churches. GET A LIFE and parent your children, not other churches youth interns.
It's a shame that there ARE many teenagers in the churches of Christ, and in ALL churches, that fit to a tee the descriptions described by James in these posts. It is an ever-increasing problem that many Church of Christ people have buried their heads in the sand over the past decade or so. Folks, while we have been arguing over (and i know it's true, I still see it in bulletins from our churches) issues like mixed swimming at christian camps, dancing, etc. (important issues though they be), our youth have passed us by. They are experimenting with drugs, they are sexually active, they are contemplating suicide, they are involved in all kinds of crime. And, you know, I can't prove it, but I'd bet that the percentage of kids in the church involved in these activities is higher than we would care to admit. People, we may be winning the battle over some doctrinal issues and over some moral concerns, but I guarantee you we are LOSING the war with SIN in the lives of our young teens. They are not being taught how to recognize sin and how to avoid it. Far too many Christian teens are ending up pregnant outside of marriage, or worse, getting abortions. Many are going to bars, getting involved with drugs and gangs and doing who knows what else. Why don't parents know about it? The kids are hiding it from them and many parents are hiding their eyes from it all, hoping it will all go away. I know that much to be true because I have been a youth minister in the past. While everyone is waging war to keep the church "pure," we are losing yet another generation of young people to the world. Take a look in your churches at the age gap. Many churches have lots of people over the age of about 50 or 55. That number decreases greatly with the age group between 35 and 50 (I am 40 and part of that age group). By and large, the church of Christ lost that age group of the late 60's and early 70's. I'm no professional statistician or a prophet, but I believe that we are about to lose another generation - those in the late teens to young adulthood. Yes, let's keep the church on track biblically, but if we do that and neglect teaching our people how to recognize and deal with sin, we simply repeat the same mistakes that our parents made in the seventies, and we broaden the chasm that already exists between the gray hairs and the young ones in the church. Surely no one wants that.
James, you are exactly RIGHT!! This is Pornography, and I must say that I am hopelessly addicted. I try to fight the good fight against it, but the people that control this website, as well as the moderators (who I think are Kevin and a guy named Donnie on the other boards) seldom let anything get posted that ridicules them. However, they take ample opportunity to ridicule and put down others.
THIS IS PORNOGRAPHY....NO DOUBT. IF YOU SAY DIFFERENT, YOU NEED SERIOUS 12 STEP HELP!!!
You are the only ones using ridiculing and immature terms like "HEHEHE" and "NANANA". How old are you, really? Standing up for one's beliefs is not pornography. But, who are the change agents exploiting? Our youth? The Lord judge which is profane.
Cathy, I was merely pointing out how pointless your post was by giving you the nanana. I am probably about your age. I have a child in high school. But that is beside the point. If you are really concerned about the youth, then get in the trenches and work with them as I do. You will find a completely DIFFERENT culture than you are talking about in your post. You need to lighten up a bit too.
This site is ALL about pornography. It takes the best and makes the worst out of it. It takes the love that Jesus gave us and makes it unholy. Think about that....
I fear you have been with children too long. Come out of the trenches and enter into a mature discussion.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Kevin. Oh! You hurt me so! Speaking of childish responses...LOOK AT YOUR OWN! Get a real life and have some HUMOR in it.
And review your own quoted scripture. ...do not provoke your children to anger....Most of what is on this site is driven by UNHOLY anger. You (the conservative ones) are in your opinion, loosing "the fight" for what you think is "the church", when in reality you are the ones sowing discord and disharmony so much so that you become jaded to your own misery.
God calls us to be creatures filled with the Joy of the Holy Spirit. We are to be filled to OVERFLOWING so that others who are around us that do not know Jesus, or who have left Him WANT to know what we have.
THAT is the most important thing! It is not that we profess we are doing it "right" or that we have the form down to a "science" but that we have love and JOY.
There is no joy in this "mudville" of a website. Only hate and discontent that I am sure stems from some sort of personal issue related to control. I pray for you in your misery. I, on the otherhand, am joyfull and elated that Christ calls me His own and that He saw fit to rescue me from my filth as a sinner. That is THE ONLY thing that matters! This website would do "the Body of Christ" a much better service if it was focused on the JOY of Christ rather than anger and hate.
and you are glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. hehehe
I just found this site and in reviewing the letters I found out a few things:
1 it is obvious that the MANNER & SPIRIT in which the changes were implemented are as much the problem as the changes themselves.
2 whether or not you agree with either position, it apppears that Kevin does have a consistent amount of scripture to back each of his points---those who counter him(for right or wrong) don't seem to post many.
3 change is inevitable and usually painfull
4 if those who support change are truely the more open minded, and stronger brother(not saying either way at this point} they are ignoring the admonition against causing others to stumble due to their use of greater knowledge.
Having been at HIllcrest since 1995, and been present the night all of this seemed to come to a head, I will admit that until it happened I felt HIllcrest needed a jolt to wake it from its comfort zone. HOWEVER, I did not believe that what happened or how it happened was christian in purpose or effect. As one person put it " we liked it, so we did it. If that bothers you then maybe you aren't spiritually open enough. It felt great!" Openess means ALL perspectives. I and my family stayed only long enough to see if the ELDER process would turn out some scriptural leadership. We stayed because we felt it did....not because we agreed with all of them, but because all of them were willing to discuss issues with us and say things like," well, let's look that up." WIllingness to hear an opinion and then to examine it in scripture is what showed us the correctness of the choices made. We have taught here, and been involved here for nearly a decade. This is our family. Families have disagreements. Families have struggles. Overcoming them is what makes families stronger.
one final note....nowhere in the bible is a congregations spirituality, faith, or scriptural rightness linked to it's size or numeric growth. In fact nowhere is it ever said that a church ever grew because of anything it did. Some did shrink because of their actions. Growth is always stated as"and GOD added unto them, so GOD added....etc. Something to think about.
Several years ago, when I first saw Lynn Anderson in action at Highland Church, the closest thing thing it reminded me of was "TV evangelism". Anderson even had a following like a TV preacher. Do we follow Jesus, or we are just sub-followers who are designated to follow some super discipline, who is an elite being with some special knowledge, special teaching, special authority, or special spirituality that we don't have? Wasn't this one of the errors of Gnosticism? Doesn't Gnosticism mean "secret" or "special" knowledge? After Anderson, then came the money. Just a few years ago, the elders at Highland just sat back when Herald of Truth took advantage of a sick, old lady. The Herald Of Truth got her to sign over her considerable money and financial assets and in exchange, promised to act as her guardian and to care for her for the rest of her life. Then Herald of Truth abandoned her. This made national news when reporters showed the deplorable, filthy conditions she was living in, with no one taking care of her, and no one seeing about her. She was living in terrible poverty, because she no longer had any money to care for herself. A relative got involved, and asked Herald of Truth to return the elderly lady's money, since they had not abided by their legal agreement to care for her. Herald of Truth refused, and denied that they had any responsibility for her. It went to court, the elderly lady got her money back, and the reputation of the whole Church of Christ suffered because of it, not just Herald of Truth and the Highland church and ACU. The elders of Highland were in charge of overseeing the Herald of Truth, and they let this happen. Is this how the Lord "works" in the congregations to spread his WORD? NO. Is this the result of His Holy Spirit? NO. Wasn't this the true result of all that super-spirituality Highland, Herald of Truth, and Anderson were supposed to have? Didn't Highland and Herald of Truth eventually show their true stripes? Peace, brother, peace? Jesus didn't say we would know them by their fine words or hype, He said we would know them by their Fruits (RESULTS of their work). And it is the change agents who end up breaking up congregations when they do their deeds, congregations that were formerly stable and reasonably "peaceful". Change agents break down congregations and introduce things that cause conflicts, divisions, and arguments that didn't exist before. Doesn't this alone tell you who they are, and what is behind it, let alone the content of their teaching? It is time that we look at the results, when change agents take over. Remember that we are living in the age of advertising. AND I wouldn't take up ACU's offer to provide on-campus housing for the elderly to live out their retirement years in exchange for their money. The elderly might find that they gave ACU their money and didn't get much in return.
Since I have been doing some intial involvement in sales of annuitys as charitable gifts here at our insurance agency(check with an agent you trust--they are GREAT for both the donor and recieptient)I had heard this story and decided to check it out. First off, Herald of Truth is a separate entity from Highland. They have worked very closely together as Highland was the congregation that created this ministry, but they are separate! The elders at Highland have little or no say in the workings of HOT.
Secondly, the woman in question was NEVER promised nor did she ever have expectation of care to be provided by HOT. Gift annuitys do not work that way, never have, never will. There is a way to set up an interest return payment, but this is NOT a program in which an individual is recieving care. Thirdly, the family members who tried to sue HOT were NOT sueing on her behalf. They were sueing in an attempt to void her will on the basis of mental imcompetence so that they might get control of her money. One of the main reasons she donated her funds was her desire that NONE of her family have access to her estate---she felt they were undeserving of anything she had saved. She felt this way due to their terrbile treatment of her over the years. HOT did not return the money because they were following HER wishes. By the way she was found to be of very sound mind and the court upheld her decision.
I am far from a Highland fan. I worked for 18 months with an organization who's clients were members there. We tooked them on alternating weekends. We were and continue to be members at Hillcrest, and were extremely uncomfortable...no, I'll just say it...scared by some of the things we saw there. I say that so you will know that I am not just blanketly defending Highland. I most certainly am not! However, it is very important to me that if we critcized a congregation for it's actions, we had better be sure we have the facts--not the rumors--straight.
I sometimes wish that all members at Hillcrest would attend one service at Highland to see where we will be in a few years.
I have been told that major changes to rectify the damage done have been made at Hillcrest, but I don't see it. Do you? Yes, we have a different preacher, but has anything else changed?
Two huge banners are still hanging on the wall declaring Hillcrest's Mission Statement. We still have the big screen and the Powerpoint presentations (which studies have shown has no effect on students' learning). There is still an element that continues to clap during certain songs. At least two of those "clapping" songs were sung during the morning service on the weekend of ACU's homecoming. During this same morning service "You are Beautiful (I Stand in Awe)" was sung, and as if on cue, most people stood when they started the chorus. There was singing during the Communion (something that doesn't really bother me, but I know is an area of contention for others). In fact, one couple informed me that that was one reason they would not be back to Hillcrest. It does bother me, however, when we are asked to meditate and then they sing while we are supposed to be meditating.
One good thing that I have noticed is that there is more Scripture being used in the Sermons. For that I am very thankful.
I guess what I am trying to convey to you is that I still believe that these seemingly small changes will lead Hillcrest down the path that Highland has chosen.
What are your thoughts?
Prayerfully Onward,
Kevin
This message has been edited by KevinHamm on Nov 2, 2003 5:34 PM
Kevin,
I am sadden once again at the shallow dogmatic and unchristian at bretheren who would leave a congregation over a scriptureal non-issue such as singing during cummunion. Why can't people stay and defend their position if it's so right! These are the bretheren who are the reason the church is sliding towards liberalism. If you boldly proclaim the truth the "charisma-crowd" can't defeat you. If you pull the little 2 yr old style tantrum and "take my gtoys and go home!", you have given them the victory they nevr had to fight for! This is espeasically true when you leave over something you can't even defend with scripture! Tradition is important. Tradition has it's purpose. Tradition is NOT the gospel.
I agree with you that it would be good for people to visit other congregation occqasionally to see what is going on there. We might have less gossip and more real impact. Too many people are complaining about things they have heard second hand, and too few are upset about things they are unaware of. I am pleased that every Elder we placed this time has been willing to look at scripture when I have had a question....you know that was not always the case! I think maybe your concern about the "repairs" may be premature. Quickly, shallow judgement got us into this mess, so I think it is extremely appropriate that the leadership take a slow,deliberate, carefully considered approach to the fix. Trying to take the time to work with Chris to come to an acceptable position was just what the scripture tells us to do with a brother we think is in error. That he was the preacher makes this doubly important. When they had exhausted all possiblity of repair, they let him go in a loving manner---preventing what could have been an extremely ugly situation. Getting rid of the banners would be fine with me, but it's not going to keep anyone from heaven any more than it brought anyone in. As I have stated before, the powerpopint doesn't bother me, it was the way it was presented that bothered me.(fyi..i've seen several studies saying it has either a positive or, at worst, nuetral effect on learning, and several elderly members have since old me that it is good to be able to see the words again---song books were toheavy for them and too small a print). Should it go? Let's make sure we are not throwing out the baby with the bath water. Plastic communion cups, sunday school, and even songbooks were new tools at some point!
The clapping can be annoying to me too, but I can't seem to find a scripture against it. Just like the "lemming-style" standing during 'You are Beautiful' I simply do not join in. Th problem really isn't these actions---it is when you a forced to take part in them that they truely become falsse doctrine. When I am told I am not "spiritual enough" because I do not clap...THEN I have a problem. Only when we have scriptural justification for our complaint should we begin to confront those issues.
Just my opinion,
Brent
p.s. I'm glad to report that MANY people have noticed, and appreciated, the return to the use of scripture from the pulpit!
The couple that told me they would not be back were only visiting Hillcrest, they were not members of the congregation.
The problem I have with the banners is that they serve as a constant reminder to me of the insensitive way changes were being forced upon us. Do you know where the banners came from or who paid for them or who gave permission for them to be hung in the first place? No one I know does either. Yet, there they still hang. I never have understood the need for a mission statement anyway. Isn't the Bible enough?
As far as the PowerPoint is concerned, is it too much to ask for the words on the screen to match the words in the songbook? Twice this past Sunday there were differences. One of the songs had a completely different second verse.
The problem with clapping is that it is not authorized in worship. If this were an infrequent occurence, I would be more tolerant; however, when they set the mood of the whole service, I have a problem. It is known well ahead of time what will happen when these songs are chosen. Why do they insist on including them? The Bible doesn't say I can't use an airhorn either, but I dare say I would be allowed to use one more than once before I would be asked to leave. Extreme example, maybe, but same principle.
Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
Psa 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him.
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
I am told often what are not believed to be salvation issues. For my edification, perhaps we should study and discuss what salvation issues are.
I can only say it's happening in New Jersey too.(see my addition to the "more churches" about Bethel Baptist in Cherry Hill, NJ for more info).I will say I leafed through the "Experiencing God" book in the lobby of our church (instead of listening to the service, which lacks the meat of the Word these days since our poor deceived pastor returned from Saddleback a year ago).The book is very subtle in that it denied the knowledge of God through His written Word, and instead tries to substitute "experiences" as though THEY were more trustworthy! We all know from Genesis that "the imagination of man is only evil continously, so while these deluded brethren will experience SOMETHING, the source of it will be any thing but holy! Not to mention the COVENANT at the end of the book.Not good at all!
I was hard pressed to leave - when the pastor came back from being Saddleback - indoctrinated, by his second "sermon", I was extremely upset with the turn his speach took. He started using words like "process", and "self esteem", and generally sounded like he was going to start a 12 step program to Christ.I wrote him a VERY scathing (un-Christian in tone) letter accusing him of being under a satanic influence.Little did I know I was right! It was mean in tone, and I later apologized and he accepted so I stayed.He then went back to Biblical exposition, and things looked better.But after about a year, stuff started to change again - surveys, less Biblical teaching (and they advocate the NIV, which is an abomination anyway), and finally the throwing out of some very distinguished members (see articles on dialectical materialism - it's exactly what is happening, but I'm not sure even the ones doing it understand what they are really getting into)I STILL didn't get it.But after I heard the Christmas music arrangements (a lot of rock beats, which I refuse to perform - I was a first soprano and soloist, which is another problem in the making), I knew I would have to do something.I asked God for an answer as to what was really going on, and He lead me in some amazing ways to the truth, and then to this website.
There is nothing you can do at your church but leave it.Be reviled of men and rejoice, for your reward will be great in heaven!
The Lord led us the very next weekend to a wonderful church where they know of this evil and avoid it totally.They also preach only from the KJV.They are out there - find one.In fact, ask Him to find one for you! And then do what this Jew who is in love with Jesus did - GET OUT!
"Come out of her, my people, lest ye be partakers of her plagues".
He isn't kidding.He holds us resposible to KNOW all the things He told us! (that's why "my people" have been in such hot water for so many millenia!).
As you may have guessed, I care very little about peer pressure or I wouldn't be following Him.So leap into His arms and get out before you miss the Big Event, should it take place in our lifetimes.He only PROMISES the Rapture to the church of Philadelphia.There may be others who get to go, but those who are aware of evil and do not choose to depart from it while there is still time ("while today is still called today") may have to remain.So leave the evil - while today IS still called today!
God bless you in your decision.
In Christ,
Jaymie Rossi
Brother Jaymie:
It is refreshing to read your post, it sound as if we have fought the same battles, just in different places. Welcome aboard. You seem to be carrying some of your Baptist luggage with you about the timing of the "Rapture", but as the Holy Spirit continues to teach you Scripture you see the error and the cost of this Baptist feel good lie.
To my surprise and relief, it was not a heavily moderated meeting. There was no agenda. It was left
open for anyone to talk about anything they wished.
One member expressed his opinion that the church is made up of members with very diverse views.
I asked everyone if we all agreed that the Bible was the inerrent Word of God. Everyone agreed. So I brought up the fact that I had issues with the book "Experiencing God". I asked how many had read the book. Only two had(there were about 30 in attendance). I began by stating that the book:
1. Promotes the notion that God speaks to us in other ways besides the Bible.
2. Promotes teaching in contradiciton to the Bible in respect to miracles and the Gospel.
3. Promotes neo-orthodox theology (Scripture may become the Word of God if the reader has an experience with a passage).
4. Promotes a low view of Jesus Christ.
5. Scripture is misinterpreted and misapplied.
I also read many quotes from the book supporting my claims.
The moderator asked why I felt it necessary to mention this book. I stated that this was being used in a Bible study for women on Wednesday nights. He asked where. I said here at this church. He asked who was teaching it and I told him who. (I believe he asked these questions to give validity to my remarks. He was helping me give relevance to my statements.)
One member (who I now consider "the opposition") stated that I could not know what is being taught in that class if I wasn't attending the class. I stated that this is what is in the workbook and I didn't think I would be allowed in the class since it was a women's class. These are direct quotes from the book. He said anyone can make anything sound bad if taken out of context and by picking out certain passages the way I did. I stated that the whole book was like this. His wife spoke up and said that she had been in Bible studies with these two women before and that they would decide what parts of the book that they believed and what parts they did not believe.
She stated that there are good parts to the book and they didn't have to agree with all of it.
I stated that this was the danger with a book like this. There are truths and there are lies and it was difficult to discern between the two especially if the class includes members new to the faith that didn't know Scripture enough to distinguish between fact and fiction. My wife stated that this was the foundation of the church, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. This book questions the deity of Christ which shakes the very foundation of the church.
Another member asked what the criteria for Bible study was. Were there things that could be taught and things that couldn't? What things could not be taught? I stated that I would think that you wouldn't want to teach heresy (in hindsight, I don't believe I should have made such a bold statement. Then again, maybe I should have.). I was told that the two women teaching the class on "Experiencing God" were godly women and I
can be assured that they are not teaching heresy! I simply stated that everyone should read this book and decide for themselves. I told them it was in their local library.
There was much discussion about the Education Dept. needing supervision of the elders. There was little discussion about the change in worship (handclapping songs, powerpoint presentation, etc.). I didn't want to monopolize the discussion so I didn't bring up any new issues.
There was discussion about channels of communication between the elders and the congregation. Several were vocal in their support for the elders and the work they were doing.
Several members stated that they were thankful that we could get together and discuss issues like this. They may not always agree, but we can only grow when we discuss them.
The moderator stated that maybe the elders needed to get the pulse of the congregation on the changes to the worship service (we only have one service on Sunday morning). Possibly by way of a survey. He wants to know if these changes are being made to appease a small percentage of members.
There were two elders in the meeting and both thanked me for bringing this issue ("Experiencing God") before them. I sincerely believe that they didn't realize this was being taught in one of our classes (even though it was announced in the bulletin on Sunday morning). In all fairness, they had not read the book yet. I will follow up with an email to all elders with my notes on this book. Time will tell if they are open to more discussion. I believe God answered our prayers tonight. I truly believe some eyes were opened and that truth will prevail.
As I have stated before to Bobby Johnson, I believe there is one dominant elder with change on his agenda. He is a professor at a christian college and is the one pushing this change. There are other elders that agree with his philosophy, but they don't push it. I pray that this exchange tonite will open up opportunities for more discussion.
Kevin, so you have a problem believing that the WORD (Jesus) could possibly speak to a person without referencing Scripture. Did the Father speak to Jesus only through Scripture? Is Jesus our example on how to live? Does the Bible serve as a testimony that God spoke directly to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Sarai, Hagar, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Samuel, Saul, David, Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jonah,just to name a few from the Old Testament? Or how 'bout after the ascension of Jesus, direct words to Peter, John, Agabus, Paul...I think a pattern in Scripture emerges that our God likes to talk to his children. Yes it is true that Scripture comes from God, in fact the main reason I believe God can and does speak directly to his children is because of the numerous teachings in the Bible ie. "my sheep will hear my voice" and all the examples of this very thing happening. In fact, I suggest that God dealing directly with his people from the inside out IS the gospel OF Jesus. Did you realize that even before the disciples understood anything about Christ's death, burial, resurrection and atonement for sins they were preaching the gospel? Jesus stated that he was sent to preach the gospel (Luke 4:43)while not discussing his death to the crowds at that point. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach this same gospel (Matthew 10:7). Jesus states in multiple passages that he had come to preach the gospel of the kingdom. I suggest to you that the kingdom being made available to all people from within their inmost being is the good news or gospel that Jesus came to announce to humanity. This is the gospel of Christ. Now granted the good news of how we enter the kingdom, the atoning blood of Jesus is also good news and is referred to in Scripture, primarily by Paul as gospel. They are both good news and I am not suggesting two gospels but rather the good news about what Jesus has done for us versus what Jesus said was good news. In Matthew 24 Jesus seems to focus attention on the good news of the kingdom, by saying that this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world before the end comes. So.... what I am trying to say is that the kingdom is within us (Luke 17:21), is to be sought first (Matthew 6:33), and cannot even be seen unless you are born again (John 3:3). Putting these together Jesus teaches that in all matters we are to first seek a reality (namely his kingdom) that is available to us from within that is spiritually discerned by people who have had a second birth (born again). What we need from God, from guidance, to faith, to comfort, to love... is available to us directly from the source. Obviously, if we are getting it from the true source it will not contradict Scripture. However if Jesus does not deal directly with you "And he walks with me and he talks with me... lovely hymn" I suggest that you do not know him, but rather only know ABOUT him. How can you know someone who has never communicated directly to you? I have read books about and by Abe Lincoln but I cannot say I know him. I can say I know Jesus. Do you?
Paul
Paul,
Let me first commend you for using scripture as a defense of your position. It shows your desire[as is mine] is to true to God in your beliefs. It is also MUCH more likely to be respected and listened to than those who start out with"na-na-na" or "he-he". I do have a few points to discuss with you about your response, though. The concept that the gospel of Christ comes from the dealings inside a person seems to conflict with what I read in the scripture. You said, "even before the disciples understood anything.....they were preachiong the gospel."Unfortunately, this is not what the scripture says at all. The disciples were sent out to the JEWS AND JEWS ONLY[matt 10:5] and not to preach the "new covenant" but "the Kingdom of Heaven is NEAR"[matt 10:7] They were in fact only reiterating the prophecies of the Old Testament to those who should have already known it. This was something that is repeatedly done during the OT. Besides, how could they have taught salvation through the blood of Christ when he had yet to be sacrificed? In fact your own reference[luke 4:43]is of Jesus saying he was sent to speak in the synagogues[v.44] The early christians were commended for "searching the scriptures daily" to see the truth of what was being taught.[acts 17:11] You also might want to look at several translations before hanging an arguement on a single word. In the NIV Luke 17:21.."the kingdom of God is within you" is also translated "among you". This is an important diferrence because it shows more clearly that Christ was refering to himself as the kingdom, not the spiritual kingdom. Let me take this even a step further. Far from coming from inside, scripture repeatedly tells us that God wants us to let him in. If he is already there how can we let him in? Man's heart is not clean in it's natural state.{mark 7:23 all these evils come from inside and make a man unclean}You might also want to look a little more closely at Christ as opposed to the Holy Spirit. The holy spirit is the one who aids us[romans8:26 In the same way the Spirit HELPS us in our weakness], it guides us but we are still resposible and in charge of our own decisions/actions. Our free will allows us to open our hearts to the message of the Lord, but he never forces us to think or feel anything. The heart of the Ethiopian Eunoch was obviously open and willing, but Phillip's instruction---not some inner feeling---helped him understand what to do for salvation. As I said before, your definition of "knowing" Jesus seems to be flawed in that we do not "experience Christ" in our daily lives, we are guided by the Holy Spirit[maybe this is what you meant to sya instead of Jesus]We do not communicate directly with Christ but THROUGH him pray to God. Scripture promises suffering and persecution for belivers, NEVER are we promised happy-happy joy-joy warm fuzzies.
That said......I do agree that it is possible that the church has dogmatically avoided more open acceptance of the work done by the Holy Spirit in our lives. Please let me know what you think about what I have said here. If I am wrong, I want to know.