CO-OP
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Pro-Active Chronic Pain Patients are welcome!
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"In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer." -Albert Camus
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Please scroll down to the board -----> ----->R.R.
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Hiya Friends! Been down a few days but better!
byI did something, don't know what, but unbelieable pain
for a couple of days...shoot...I was in bed!! Things
eased up starting around midnight last night and got
some sleep this morning. Gota take the kids to Boise
in the morning to get my oldest boys braces off, gonna
stay the night at my brother's. GARD THE MEDS!!!
This last flare up kinda scared the dickins out of me,
couldn't trace it to anything. But it's getting better fast. As for these generic Norco...I've got to get the balls to ask the Doc to let me try the name brand...some of you have said YES there is a diffrence.
And I'm just not seeing the coverage that I used to,
but then I was on NORCO before we switched pharmacies.
Anywho....Hope everyone is doing o.k. My thoughts are with you all! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!! cap :})
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Hi Ya Cap!
by Randay RacconIt is good to see you posting. It is bad to hear that you are feeling rather rough around the edges and in the middle for that matter. I hope it passes quickly.
As for Generic drugs...they are or can be as different as night and day. I took a heart medicine that my insurance company said I had to change to without consulting my doctor and it almost killed me "But it was the generic of the other and just the same" as I heard many times. The main thing is that it was a different colored capsule and the time released granules were also a different color. It never occured to any of these rocket scientists that I might have been allergic to dyes that gave the capsule its very color!!!!! Hello!!!!!
On a final note, (generic meds)...NO, they are not the same. I took Darvocet for 10 years and the real med worked best but I couldn't afford it as my insurance didn't pay for meds on that policy so I had to buy generics. Mylan worked the best for me and Lemmon was the absolute worst. It was like the Lemmons didn't have anything except tylenol in them.
Be good and feel better.
Me go bye,
Randy
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Hey Cappy
bySorry to hear about you feeling bad that happens to me to without a reason.
As far as your Norco goes you don`t have to ask ANY doctor for the brand name you Dr signs the script authorizing the use of a generic if YOU want it.
The insurance company may charge you more if you have it but I don`t even know why you use Norco you dont take that many (I dont think) to make a difference with the Tylenol.
Happy 4th
Joey
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Mr. Cap
byRespond to this message
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New regulations set by JCAHO...(News article)
byThis is the addy to a news article sent to me that I thought ya'll be interested in reading!!
JCAHO has released new regulations regarding the reporting of medical errors. These regulations go into effect today, 7/2/01
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/07/01/MN111716.DTL
Laura
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Yes and a lot worse also.
by JoeyGood to see you around but sorry about the problems they seem to come with the disease for no extra charge.
I read the article and I am sure that is does happen a lot and who is going to know it.
I had surgery one morning and I woke up around 8 hours later, (I had memory then) and Anna was sitting in a room with me and she said Gordito they have been so worried about you, she said that I would not wake up, that was the worst night nothing for pain after surgery my knee was as big as a volleyball my lord if I could have gotten up and called a cab (Anna didn’t drive) I would have left.
What they did wrong if anything I don’t know but I went out at 9Am and it was after dark in April about 8Pm before I have any memory.
You should see what they doctors do to people here if they go into a nursing home we have 2 doctors that will not let the elderly go home, it is granny knapping I was unaware of this situation until I put my Great granny in for 10 days so that I could hire help at home and my Family doctor told me to get her out of there she was not ready yet, he said that they don’t let people go, I gave him medical care and I had POA and I got outside pressure intense pressure from people that said the doctor would not let her go, they did not know that I had made arrangements and I had POA and they lied about billing trying to double bill I knew different but most don’t know.
They tell the caregiver (family) that they need to save the 90 days or whatever it is and start paying out of my pocket, I told them they were crooks but people don’t believe a doctor would do that well they do I called SS and I found out what the bill was for 6 days and it was over 2,000.00 SS paid and they tried to get me to pay it also and the room was 114.00 a day the rest was for PT that she never got it was over Easter weekend I was there from sun up until around 9 Pm. Afraid they would drop her to fill a bed.
I have seen this several times since 97 a person checks in for pt on a knee and they never let them go and when they struggle they send them to a shrink at a lockdown ward and remove them from town it is a scandal.
This sounds far fetched but it is the absolute truth, it is unbelievable and that is why it continues.
Joey
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true story
byBlessings,Gracie
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Hello, to all...
byWow, you guys sure have been busy since I've been here last! I've missed you all and this board very much! I've had many unexpected health and personal problems which kept me away for some time.
My health has been worsening. I began this chronic pain journey with RSD, and now I face many other problems that I'm being tested for this week. I've been in contact with Robert, who refuses to let me wallow! (Thanks, Robert!!) but, I wanted to say hello to all of you as well. I had lost my internet connection for a little bit, due to some financial problems from a splitting marriage, but thankfully, I'm back online for now!! I never realized just how much this internet meant to me until I was without it...I hope you are all doing well, I've got some catching up to do. I'll be off and on for the next week as I go back and forth to the doc for more tests, but I look forward to getting back in touch with you all soon!
Laurie~
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Hey !! Laurie ...................
byLaurie you might want to contact Clarice as I think you folks could do some serious de-briefing.
I hope you will stay longer than the usual 4 notes and OUT she goes !!!
LOL Your harder to keep in touch with than the Pope.
Please let us know the what, where, how, stuff...
Cuz if you don't I will just to grab the posse and come lookin fer ya. . .Lets see there's Randy but he can't see to shoot, Joey who likes to describe the gun and ammo as the bullets go zippin by your head ,and me,
I sit in the mud and write reams about what it is that
looks important at the time.. what do I know ?
Its important to me that you keep in touch .. OK ??Please , and Clarice if you read this I wish you would let us know your ok every 2-3 days .. Im already gray , your going to make me shine in the sun (my bald head that is )
Yer friend Robert,
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Hi again, Laurie
byRespond to this message
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A good article by a pain doctor.
by JoeyHis part in the article describing quality of life and reintegration into society describes my situation and I realized that I am living in a world that has continued to change while I have been out of the world for so many years.
I ask myself why even bother, I am feeling good for the most part but my life has not changed, I go out a lot but I am in the wrong part of the country I guess.
http://www.hosppract.com/issues/2000/07/brook.htm
Part 1
http://www.hosppract.com/issues/2000/09/brook.htm
Part 2
Enjoy the articles they are good.
Joey
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RE: Dr. Brookoff's articles Please read and pass out copies ..
byread and send/take Part 2 of Brookoff's paper to your MD, and you and hopefully your MD can go back to the drawing board as this
reiterates the point loud and clear. . .
Clinical Opiology
Choosing the right opioid for a particular patient is usually a matter of guesswork. Even though opioids have been in use as long as any other class of medications, the base of knowledge on how to use them most effectively is surprisingly small, particularly with regard to combining them with nonopioid medications and with each other.
Much of the human research has involved patients who were not in pain or who experienced limited episodes of acute pain. As a result, we often see disparities between the guidance of the medical literature and empiric clinical practice. That tables of drug equivalence are still published attests that many clinicians think opioids are interchangeable. Imagine the reaction if someone were to publish a conversion table for antibiotics showing how to convert milligrams of ampicillin into milligrams of gentamicin!
The opioid medications currently in use act largely through the µ-opioid receptor, but nearly all of them stimulate kappa- and delta-opioid receptors and some nonopioid receptors as well. In addition to their inhibitory functions, some opioid receptors appear to have stimulatory functions that may be responsible for some adverse effects of opioids. According to recent studies, these stimulatory effects can be inhibited by miniscule doses of opioid antagonists such as naltrexone and nalmefene. As we get more sophisticated in using these medications, we may be able to combine opioid agonists and antagonists both to enhance pain relief and to attenuate dependence and other side effects. This exciting field of analgesic research has recently been reviewed by R. F. Crain and S. M. Shen.
While there is general agreement that µ-opioid receptors predominate in mediating opioid-induced analgesia, we still do not know the consequences of stimulating other opioid receptors, including how they affect different groups of patients. Kappa-opioid agonists, for example, produce greater analgesia in women than in men. Until recently, most clinical pain research was conducted in men to reduce the variability caused by hormonal fluctuations.
There are also wide metabolic variabilities within groups of pain patients that may be determined by genetics or influenced by interacting drugs. Yet we have little information to guide the selection of dosages. For patients on chronic opioid therapy, it may soon be reasonable to periodically assess serum levels of the drugs and their metabolites to guide therapy, much as we do with antiarrhythmics and other medications.
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Yakima Fruit Paste Recipe.....A natural laxative
byHope evryone's doing swell this first day of July...2001!!!
Was just making out my grocery list, as I am getting ready to make another batch of the Yakima Fruit Paste, and realize that it's been quite awhile since I posted the recipe for it!!
For all the newbies here wondering just what in earth I'm talking about, the Yakima Fruit Paste is a paste that you can make at home that acts as a natural laxative. For any chronic-pain patient on daily opiods, constipation is probably the #1 side-effect of daily opiod use....as I'm sure you already know.
Well, there are plenty of OTC medications that can be taken for this, but some may have unpleasant side-effects to them as well....such as abdominal cramping/pain(which was true for me)....not to mention a pain in the pocket-book, as most are quite costly to boot!! Also, there are prescription laxatives that your Doctor may prescribe for you, but if you would rather go for a natural approach, the "Yakima Fruit Paste" is a tasty and effective laxative!! It is fairly easy to make a batch, somewhat sticky, but it becomes easier to make with each new batch. You shouldn't have any trouble finding the ingredients at your local healthfood store, and substitutions can be made for some of the ingredients.....which I believe Joey has some suggestions on...(Joey, will you share them with us??? Thanks!!) This recipe came from Hospice...and truly is effective and TASTY !!
Okay...here's the recipe!!
~*I urge you all to save this*~
Painfree wishes to all,
Laura
_______________________________________________________
Yakima Fruit Paste Recipe
_______________________________________________________
DOSE: 1-2 tablespoons per day
1 pound prunes
1 pound raisins-pitted
1 pound figs
4 oz senna tea (look in your health food store, it looks like a bunch of leaves)
1 cup brown sugar
1 cup lemon juice
1. Prepare tea-use about 2 1/2 cups boiled water added to tea and steep 5 minutes.
2. Strain tea to remove tea leaves and add only 1 pint tea to a large pot, then add fruit.
3. Boil fruit and tea for 5 minutes.
4. Remove from heat and add sugar & lemon juice. Allow to cool.
5. Use hand mixer or food processor to blend fruit mixture into smooth paste.
6. Place in plastic container and place in freezer. (Paste will not freeze but will keep forever in freezer).
7. Spoon out what you require each day.
Enjoy eating it straight off the spoon.
Spread it on toast or add hot water and make a drink.
* If the fruit paste is not working (you are not having bowel movements) then you need to increase the amount of fruit paste you are taking.
* If the fruit paste makes you have very loose stools then you need to cut down on the amount of fruit paste you are taking. Perhaps even taking it every other day in some cases
*******************************************************
I just want to mention.....this treatment is more for maintenence, a daily intake, rather than for an emergency situation...like if you haven't had a bowel movement in several days to a week. As in that case, start the paste on a daily basis AFTER you have taken care of that situation and had a bowel movement, to PREVENT further emergency situations.
*******************************************************
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I really spread this around.
by JoeyI have used it since you posted it in Feb. I believe it was.
My Dr. has it and the pharmacy has it and the forums at MGH have had their trial with it some skeptical at first but believers in the enddddddd.
I would have saved myself a lot of problems if the doctor would have told me that I HAD to take soething with morphine, I was a slow learner.
Thanks,
Joey
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American Pain Society..We Need the Help of this Forum
by MLWhitworth, MDanesthesiology) and 1,483 in other fields. Of the other, 473 are nursing, 453 are psychology, 156 are
basic science, 133 are pharmacy, 121 dentistry, 96 are behavioral science, 77 business, 31 physical
therapy, 12 social work, 10 chiropractors, 9 health policy, 8 bioengineering, and 5 are occupational
therapists.
The last several years of pain programs for the national meetings have consisted entirely of discussions in
basic science and the psychological effects of pain. There have been zero presentations in interventional
pain management or minimally invasive spine or any kind of surgery in spite of the fact that most of you
on this and almost all other spinal disorders/pain management internet forums have undergone these
interventions. This lead me to analyze the program committee of the APS for the year 2002 to determine
whether it would be a waste of time to submit an article for presentation. What I found was astonishing.
Out of the 15 members of the program committee for presentations in the general meetings, only 3 were
physicians, and only one of these is an interventional pain management physician. This is in spite of the fact that well
over half of the members of the organization classify themselves as being in a medical specialty. It does
not surprise me there exists an incredible bias against procedures that exist in the real world of pain
management which patients have to deal with daily. Rarely does a patient consider the dorsal root
ganglion deafferentiation in the lumbar segment of a rat when thinking about the pending discography or
IDET procedure coming up the next day.
I sent the program committee chairman and the president of the APS a blistering criticism of this bias
which exists both in their journal and in their scientific program.
I encourage you all to do the same. Patients deserve more than this from the APS which is looked upon
as a leader in the societies of pain management. Unfortunately, their programs nor their journal contents
reflect the interests of the membership nor that of real patients in the real world.
I encourage you all to send your comments about the programs of the APS to the APS president at
mashburn01@aol.com
Perhaps those on this forum can help steer the APS away from psychobabble and rat studies and into the
world in which pain patients exist.
The website for the aps is www.ampainsoc.org
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Pain Intervention
byOK, let me get this straight. The people responsible for making up the guidelines to pain management don't even consult human beings that suffer pain in their quest to conquer pain??? Human patients are not even in their equations for formulating pain treatment!!!!
Good God Gertie!!!!!!
What kind of letter do we send? How we live with chronic pain that can not be mechanically cured and how we have to live on narcotics (those of us fortunate enough to have the insurance to help pay for them)?
I'll load the cannon but I need you to tell me exactly where to aim it so to speak! Tell me how to outline the message that you need passed to them.
Thanks for the heads up Dr. Whitworth,
Randy
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Echo
byrandy ,
I read Dr W 's post befpre yours and we sound like parrots , sorry I repeated your sentiments ...
Great minds think alike (do you know any? )
<G> Robert
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Yesss Yesss Yesss yess yes ye y
by LukeRespond to this message
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Dr. W a question..
byIt would appear that you have pulled the curtain back on a huge bureaucratic dinosaur .
I'm sure many folks here and many that just read but do not wish to post would be happy to write letters to the APS. There are more groups out there that are also pro-active who can be enlisted.
It is really no surprise to me that you found what you did, as the same can be said for the American Arthritis Society, who push their own brand of OTC
pain medication, sell magazines, and babble about what a wonderful future we all can anticipate.
They too are without function.
It is alarming when an institution such as the APS
exists to further the publish or perish ethic, and
give jobs to people who know more about Ratticus Norwegicus than humans. Research for the sake of research has always been a fruitless venture.
So we have in the past and will in the future
write letters as that is our only weapon. But may I ask you for the sake of all of us who wish to make our letters effective, where is the achillies heel here ?
What do you recommend we aim our slings and arrows at.
Perhaps, a sample of a letter or the one you wrote would help clarify what it is we can specifically target to maximize this endeavor.
I'm not surprised as nothing surprises me anymore in the field of pain management, and I suppose you could change the name of APS to the
American Pretzel Society and no one would even notice. I'd be interested in their track record to see what the claim as accomplishments.
Can you help further our knowledge concerning the contents of a effectual letter ?
Thank you Dr. and thank you for your keen discovery,
Please tell us the best way you see, we can potentially effect change.
Robert
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Your Letters...
by MLWhitworth, MDI think he will get the point...
Thans Robert and to all who would voice an opinion.
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Tax Subsidized anti-opioid campaigns ?
byThank you Doctor. I'm sure that a group with as strong of fire formed opinions will be happy to share them with these laypeople (civilians).
I know that many of you are in other groups as RSD, or aracnoiditis, arthritis, support groups ect., ..Will you take or para-phrase Dr W's letter without using his initials.. Damn right I'm paranoid !
If we each could get this letter to another group and ask them to take it to another group the grass roots ripple effect 'can' effect change, and when you think of how lame The American Pain Society being has become and just WHAT they represent, we need to let them know that they need to be reflective of the pain community not an Academic Ivory Tower as there are grad students that need to publish or perish and don't need the competition of tax payer subsidized anti-opioid campaigns (hint hint) ..
Thank You -- Ya'll
Robert
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Sorry Charlie, it's stuck
by RandyHi Robert,
I must be in a fog here Robert and Mike as I need one of you to give me some talking points to blast with.
How about 3 or 4 points. I am slow as molasses for some reason and can't put my finger on the trigger to fire some rounds off at them without knowing specific objectives explained to my slow brain today. Help!!!
I hate to beat a dead horse but it sounds like these clowns are a cluster f*** waiting to happen and they have things so disguised so as to cover up the target but still are receiving grants to do what they do best and that is something that no one knows but them. Is that basically what is happening with this prestigious group of boneheads?
>Insert grin here<
Randy
PS...can we get some of those nice funny Graemlin graphics? hehehe*
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Yes I am sure, the check will be in the mail.
byCould you be more specific sir, I didn’t get your drift but it has something to do with the bull in the china shop syndrome that I seem to be afflicted with.
I guess that Gremlins may serve well on the board of the APA and seriously I was surprised at the comments of Dr W and it takes a lot to surprise me when it comes to any medical snafu.
I shall use this silicon-brained machine and my trusty Office Assistant Rocky to write a letter, darn dog stuck out his tongue when I typed his name.
His best advice to date is that plaid pants and a stripped shirt make no fashion statement but a click of the mouse and he will become an expert at typing a letter of my choice.
Good day to you sir and be careful you may have mail before the moon sets tonight.
I will soon be dispatched to the park to control some unknown saturated fatty food shortly as the carnival is in town and I have a few bills that have corn dog written on them.
As I was.
Joey
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WHERE's THE BEEF
byAs I wrote the whole damn board & I expect a reply as I requested as much.
There was a request for clarification and retraction of the article..
I know I will hear from them as I was hot under the
collar and was terrible antagonistic.. But the Bozo's can't go on with a witch hunt in the 21st centuary. When they allowed the CPP's to be grouped in with addicts I came unglued ..
I hope to hear from them tomorrow as the letter was sort of a warm up to the American Pain in the Butt Society. When they reply I will post the letters.
Randy , what has the American Pain society done for ANYONE you know ? Do they have a track record ?
What is it ? Go for the juggler. Tell them "with their budget they need to get some meaningful research they can point to as helping solve the problems of pain in our society." So just what have they done ?
Check it out they are on Google, and I know you well enough that you can read between the lines of a scam..
I use the American Arthritis Foundation as an example
as they have never done anything but take in money and pass out worthless pamphlets. WHERE's THE BEEF ???
Robert
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Aahhhh!
by RandyHeck, we are just as much experts as they are and I would hazzard a guess and say that we are more quailfied than they! It is a known fact that research scientist could learn more if they could interview the lab rats before they dissected them!
Joey, get your hoe and lets go see if snakes can outrun the chopping action of your hand operated hoe! I'll get a shambock (African rod made out of twisted then dried and hardened hippopotamus hide) and I'll try the whipping action on a few myself!
Let the Flame Wars Begin!!!!
Have a nice day, >(insert happy face with horns here)<
Randy (snicker) Smith
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A response- -Why do I still want blood ?
byRobert-
I'm sorry you took Dr. Clark's statement that way. This piece was fully
intended simply to educate the public to a problem that exists that many are
not aware of in an effort to stop the problem. I fully agree that it is a
shame that the abuse by a few resulted in the withdrawal of a drug that so
many rely on. I want you to know that our goal is not to exploit only the
bad. Unfortunately, the fact is that the drug is abused and it is our hope
to educate the public to what is happening around them so that the abuse
does not continue. Also, true this is one side of the story. I hope you
will make a note, as well, of two reports that we produced last month
highlighting what is being done to help people who suffer with chronic pain
day in and day out. The following links will
> bring you to these stories.
<http://www.ivanhoe.com/docs/thisweekonly/backissues/improvingpainmanagement
.html>
<http://www.ivanhoe.com/docs/thisweekonly/backissues/controllingpainrelief.h
tml>
Best wishes,
liz
Liz Rosenblum
Director of Medical Programming
Ivanhoe Broadcast News
2745 West Fairbanks Avenue
Winter Park, Florida 32789
Phone: (407) 691-1511
Fax: (407) 740-5320
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Testing and Question
by RandyOK,
Gracie and Terry,
DEB and Randy and Everyone is looking for ya'll. Please tell us...are you OK ???
Hang on sloopy,(that's for Joey)
Randy
PS..Hi Laura and Capster
Have you heard anything yet Robert?
Me go bye.
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Some news >> Gracie ,Terrie and Clarice..
byI received a letter from Gracie today 6/30/01.
Poor Terry is going through a ruff time . This is a matter that it appears only will be solved with the return of their MD. , and possibly some testing.
Terry is in a lot of pain I wish there was something I could do ..... I feel so useless here...
I know poor Gracie would love to do more but the MD
went out of town and will not be back till this week , gut this is 4th of July week and it may be some time till REAL help arrives ... Prayers would be good.
A note to Gracie telling her we are all on their side and pushing for Terry would be good..
And Clarice send her love , she is at a couple junctures in her life that take a lot of strength, and
perseverance , courage and knowledge she has people who care for her and support her..
To these folks dear members of this family I would
hope we all send support and ask if there is anything we can do .. The support is important right now, and hopefully in time things will get a lot better for
our dear, dear friends .
Robert
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Thanks Robert
by RandyAnother questions seems to be formulating itself in my noggin about these pumps. Is everyone that has one at the merciless hands of other doctors if they (the implanting doctor) is out of town or moves away as was the case in Karens situation last year?
The more I read about people having pumps the happier I am that my doctor refused to implant one in me 4 years ago when I started at my pain clinic. I was begging for the experimental drug SNX-111 from the sea slug protein. My pain clinic wasn't in the FDA trials and my doctor would not turn my name into the experimental program.
I had never taken narcotics before and didn't know that is how they treated chronic pain so it did get better for me in the care of this pain clinic. Through their combinations of trying different drugs and dosages, they made my life more livable. For this I thank them. Both for the medications and not implanting a pump in me. They do have the ideal type of clinic it would seem for pump installations as there are usually 3 to 4 doctors on staff most of the time and they could refill a pump or have it ordered up it would seem.
Please hang in there Terry. I am sorry that I don't know anything about pumps or how to get them refilled. As you can tell by my message, you are braver than me for having one. All of you pumpsters out there, my hat is off to ya'll. Yes, I am a chicken!
Sincerely,
Randy
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Thanks,Robert....also, A note for Gracie &Terry
by LauraGracie and Terry,
My prayers go out to you both!!!
May God give you the strength and courage to continue until the Doctor gets back and is able to fix your pump!!
It is just appalling that the fill-in Doctor would not allow home-care for Terry so that he could receive his meds the IV route,or at least shots... until his Doctor returns...as that is the closest delivery system compared to the pump. I sure hope that this Doctor at least scripted enough meds AND break-thru meds to keep him somewhat comfortable...and stop any withdrawls!!
I think it may be wise, after Terry is taken care of by his Doctor, to talk to his Doctor about setting up a protocal IN WRITING for emergency situations like this for the future,if it should happen again while the Doctor is away. I'm sure any Doctor would be willing to follow written orders in the absence of the Doctor. Something to ponder anyway.
I can only imagine how difficult it must be for you, Gracie, to see your loved-one have to suffer so!! I pray that you have YOUR health good so that you are able to carry this physical AND emotional task!!
MANY prayers, from MANY wonderful people/friends here, are being said for the both of you!!
May you BOTH channel the love and support that is being directed your way during this difficult time.
Sincerely,
Laura
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Thank you Laura !!
byThis is just a good idea to have in place for all of us .. I have had a stand in Doc tell me he didn't write prescriptions while standing in...
I asked him just what the heck he did do ?
I haven't figured that out.. Im about half peeved
at my Md when he hires a wooden headed dummy for the
weekend. People have problems 7/24/366 and its like
the weekend is the great sacred cow.. I think the cow has mad cow disease as people and CPP's in particular, have serious problems on weekends and MD's vacations .. What do they do for oncology patients ?
BUT, Laura has the idea ...Get your MD to write orders for times s/he is gone. I know Gracie and Terry ane loving and trusting, and they just got tromped on , Id be so mad at that Md (vacation MD) Id probably alleniate him forever but what a dork ............!!
The best measure is prevention. Prevent this by having auto-piolet orders any dummy can follow and still keep their virgin conscience..(sic)
Robert thank you Laura good thought !!!
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ydnaR............
by aruaLolleH ot uoy oot!!!
woH era uoy??
s'woH yefiw ??
lleT reh "iH" morf em, yako??
yM draobyek si llits dewercs pu, tub ev'I nettog eht rabecaps ot krow retteb!!!
lleW...em yzzid!!!!!
evoL,
EINEEBRespond to this message
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This is going to be a short one, hehehe(ALWS)
byI ma dalg taht ruoy draodyek si retteb. I etah ti nehw gnihtemos skrof pu no siht retupmoc. Ezeeg! Siht si oot ffut rof em ot od yadot!
Evol & sessik,
ydnaR dna eifiW
dna seihsooms oot!
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Hehehehe..Hahahahahaha...Heheeeeee.....(No Message)
by EINEEB :)Respond to this message
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Rocky said the same thing.
by JoeyAhahahahahahahah siht rof mih demargrop tfosorciM eveileb t`nod I txet siht ni eson sih htiw nwod tog eh ykcoR ta hgual ot evah I
DRAMAMINE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Ps. Spell check don’t work on this unless I turn the screen around.
yeoJ
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To Rocky
by RandySin clearly,
Randy, alias, Commando Cody and his Space Rangers.
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Fourth reminder--get meds ...
byI know Terry and Gracie are going through a hard time right now, Randy. Terry's pump is not fuctioning and in lew of the pump he has been on oral meds. By order of a stand in Doc. Most stand in's don't like to get their hands dirty if you know what I mean.
I think its a day to day wait, I know Terry was having problems holding food down .... I can only send Gracie my best of wishes and more, it's an agonizing wait.
This week has the 4 th in the middle of it I know many office docs will be out for Wedns--Sunday so I'd hope everyone remembers to get ahead on your meds before the Doc's are out.. Just a friendly reminder..
I used to love holidays now they are like nitchs
in the great book of accounting for age..
As there is no accounting for me !! <g>
Have a good 4th as you say "ya'll". . .See I can learn a foreign langauge too.
Robert
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Got my fingers crossed for Terry!
by RandyI saw the post about the parrot! HA! Maybe we are twins separated at marrige or something!?
As for Terry, I really do get nervous thinking about him going through all of that unnessecary (sp) crap. It is an oversight that will only happen once in his life (I hope) and I would be willing to bet that it doesn't happen to Gracie at all as I think that she is going to make arrangements with her doctor for written orders if such a thing were to happen since she has had to live through this with Terry (hint, hint Gracie, please). God bless them and keep them is all I can say or do.
Remember that girl named Karen that had to put up with a new doctor that never would titrate her dosage up in her pump and she wasn't able to work for about a year? When he finally upped her pump dosage she was able to get her life back in order and go back to work! All because her new doctor was afraid of the narcotics in her pump!!! That was just plain cruel.
I saw that you were able to get your keyboard to write the word ya'll!!! Way to go! As far as the Southern mindset...well, if you move down here and really want to "fit in" you have to suck the heads of the crawfish that you eat. hehehehehe(ALWS). But then again...I don't think I could eat mountain oysters. Brrrrrruckkkk!!
Uhh, hand me a towel would you? (sniff),
Randy
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Rainy day
byMy old doc was only in for 4 hours every other week for 4 hours and there were 2 hospital secrataries sitting, W/C injured nurses did it and they are nice but just not busy but he never asked them to call his few patients, I guess he wanted it to be a surprise.
The nurses were very good as they were pain patients also and they got a very cushy job for life, the station could be handeled by 1 nurse part time but they had 2 until another gets hurt, maybe they will open up another wing if that happens.
The ladies worked in the so called specialty clinic where a specialist comes one afternoon every week or 2but dang they treated me good, Bunny called me Astro the Jetsons dog................
Joey
Burn me once shame on you burn me twice shame on me.
Joey
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Bunny?
by RandyWhat is Bunnys last name???
One more thing, that burn me once thing. I have never understood that. It would seem to me to be -- burn me once, shame on me. Burn me twice shame on you!
Like the first time it was my fault for letting you burn me so shame on me for letting you do it.
The second burn would be shame on you because I would be coming for you for abusing me!! Is that it? It still makes sense either way, huh? I'm just cogitating out loud with my fingers.
Aaahhhhh...The power of cheese!
It's late, me go bye,
Randy
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Sorry Backwards.
by LukeI got it backwards, if someone burns you one time you should not let it happen twice.
Bunny Aishe
Luke
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I don't know her. Drats!
by RandyLife is strangest thing that I have ever experienced. When a sniper got on top of the Howard Johnson Hotel in NOLA I was across the street where the helicopters were taking off from and they would hovering over the hotel (at 3 am) and fire .50 caliber machine guns down into the stair wells of the hotel trying to flush the sniper out so the police snipers could shoot him. They Did! Hell, I didn't need to go to Vietnam...I lived in New Orleans!!!
C'est La Vive,
Randy
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Anyone herard from Gracie or Terry>
byRespond to this message
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I'm a little concerned
byRespond to this message
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Happy Friday and Everyday......
byRespond to this message
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Dr. on trial for treating terminal patients` Pain
by JoeyI found this very interesting but I have not read very much of it, but if you are up to reading there is a lot of it on the court testimony.
I found this on another site:
http://www.weitzelcharts.com/
Joey
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Oxycontin and a Louisiana Sheriff
by RandyThey did say that he said that he had a bad back and took it for his back pain but it was not said if he was under a doctors care (as of yet). They did say that they wondered if it was proper for a law enforcement officer to take that kind of addictive narcotic and still discharge his duties as a civil servant!
So, in affect, they are saying that anyone who takes this medicine is an addict no matter what the circumstances. Sorry Bastards! The ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
Stay tuned,
Randy
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WOW!!!! Awaiting further info.........
by LauraWhat an interesting story!!! I'm curious as to what will happen to him....and also the "WHOLE" story!!
See what monster the MEDIA created?!?!!!!!!
That Sheriff was probably finally getting some well-deserved pain relief...with-out anyone's knowledge but him and his Doctor, but now it's front-page news.....AND...he's at the mercy of the public as to whether or not he can continue to have PAIN RELIEF??!! What's wrong with this picture??
A few months back nobody even knew what Oxycontin was, but now it's front-page news....that horrific,addictive,deadly drug...WHAT??!!??
Most people thought this Oxycontin issue would be "yesterdays news" quickly...but instead, the MEDIA keeps adding fuel to the fire...and it's still alive and burning!!!
What a d*#* shame!!!!
<Rant-mode off>
Must go now and try to get spaces between all of these letters....my spacebar only works part-time and it takes about 15-20 tries to make ONE space...UGGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
**NOTE TO SELF**
>>>>> GO BUY A NEW KEYBOARD so I can post more...I really am getting bored with talking to only myself,as I don't always answer myself...Hahahahaha(AIWS)<<<<<<
Pain-free wishes ALL AROUND!!!
Laura
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Oh boy...not again.
by Ha! I probably didn't have enough chemicals(at least serotonin)... Stay cool and well, AlRespond to this message
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Small Miracle!!!!
by RandyI watched our 11:30am and 12:00pm news cast on TV.... Nothing!!! Then I listened to the radio some more and again...nothing! Then I watched our 5:00pm and 6:pm local news again and ... NOTHING!!!
Could it be that someone on the Parish Commission put a gag order on it after they heard it on the radio news...OH YES...This is Louisiana after all!!! I think per chance that the powers that be in that Parish shut this embarrassing story down before it went national. I sincerely hope so. Thank goodness for crooked Louisiana Politicians!!!!!!!!!!! They might have spared us afterall.
Fingers crossed,
Randy
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Just a question
byHow was your time away .. did you enjoy the trip ?
What did you do in S. Idaho ? Did the local police escort you to the border ? <g> Just curious .
I suspect many of us sent posts to Gracie and Terry
Im sure we will hear form Gracie soon .
Robert
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Idaho Thots
byRespond to this message
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Good Sheriff........
by JoeyHe will do fine if he didn’t get into the evidence cage.
The Pike county Sheriff has been arrested about 4 times this month for rape they keep letting him out and another girl steps up, I believe he quit and is now on home detention.
Poor guy I believe it would be funny if he got time in a state facility, in with the general population, serve him right.
Joey
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The money came........................
byRespond to this message
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Ashes to ashes sawdust to sawdust
byDeb.
Some of us can turn sawdust into LDL (the bad cholesterol) Its genetics for the most part. When you consider some of the highest cholesterol people are
100 lb women that when they turn sideways you can't see them... Your good to bad cholesterol ratio is good ,
and just a year ago a doc might have told you to slow down on dairy, meat, processed , and high fat foods , but now the research says that anything over 180 is not good. Lipator is a great but very expensive medication.
Oh I need to borrow about $690.00 is that too much?
can you get it here overnight ? <BG>
I'm glad to see you getting that $$ because I know you were worried..I think Joey was worried too.
Robert
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Fat men can`t jump
by JoeyI had a neighbor lady in Ca that was 73 years old and hers was high and she didn’t weigh more than 100 pounds and she worried and studied and altered her diet and it never changed so why should she put a substance in he body to change nature.
Mine was high and I was able to bring mine down with diet so it works for some people I was eating at buffets every day at the time and I quit that was where mine was coming from, also I guess my milk consumption was ½ gallon a day.
I looked at my Great Grandmas medical record when she got sick and I was surprised at what she had been through but the interesting part was her weight and cholesterol it was high when she was 65 and as she aged both went down along with a pretty high blood pressure that would be treated today he bad living habits killed her 2 months and a few days short of 100 years old.
I was with my cousin at the other place in town for the elderly and handicapped where she lived her last few years and DeWayne looked at me as we were sitting in the lobby and he asked me what was missing, well I didn’t notice anything but he pointed out that there were no fat old men, and he was right, also most of the women were of correct weight to slim with a few exceptions.
Joey
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Sawbucks to Sawbucks
by RandyGood news on the money. Bad on the cholesterol. I take my cholesterol meds too. I took the one that you are going to take and it lowered mine to 150 and my doctor took me off of it saying that it went too low!! Go figger!
I am 48 or 49 (one of those!) and have 5 partially blocked arteries (40 to 65%) in my heart and take time released nitro and sublingual nitro for the Angina and a guy that my wife works with was cutting the grass last week and dropped dead in the yard from a heart attack and he was 41. Who knows when we are to go??? Take your meds and you will do fine, of this I am sure. I smoke and look at the bockage! Dam!!!!
Take care,
Randy
PS...we might want to ease up on the puffing! Bofuss! - Southern for "both of us". hehe/snicker.
PPS..where do you live that they put air warnings on TV?? My God, now that is scarey. Sounds like smoking might be the least of ya'lls worries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Great news!!
by LauraI'm glad that everything is going smoothly with W/C and your arm/hand!!
Hope you have a speedy recovery!!
Laura
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Good news!
byRespond to this message
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All of the Senators E-Mail on one clickable page
byLoad both barrels and give it to them,,,,,,,
Luke did it don`t blame me,
Joey
http://www.senate.gov/contacting/index.cfm
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Message to Luke
by RandyThanks for the address, I put in my favorites list.
Tell ole Lukie that he might need to cover his tracks with his IP number.
Ask Luke if he can spell FBI!?!
You gotta keep watch over Luke as you might be considered his legal guardian since he lives near you.
Luke, be careful that you don't activate Carnivore or Eschelon or you will have a file as big as mine. hehehe(ALWS)!
Take care,
Randy
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Fidel agrees with me.
by JoeyI got several to the Prez and Veep and both their wifes last night about workers compensation, I told them to get off of their butts and do something for the working man.
If they ever bother me I will laugh at the silly idiots.
I just heard Castro on the news and he said that bush was stupid hehehehehehehehehehe farm out Fidel......
Joey
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Fidel
by RandyNadi, nadi, boo boo, wash your face with doo-doo Fidel!
Sincerely,
A FREE AMERICAN,
Randy (not a dam commie) Smith
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THEY WERE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by DukeI got some visitors and they asked me about the following report of course I told these gorillas nothing.
Mr. Smith
I have read your FBI, DEA, & ATF files.
Mr. Smith leads a group of domestic terrorists (freedom fighters) and he has been recorded at the group’s headquarters talking about never being taken alive.
Mr. Smith suffers from megalomania as his weapons make him feel invincible; we actually taped him changing into battle fatigues in a phone booth before a mission.
Mr. Smith does not want the New World Order to complete their mission of repatriating the American public to the ways of the UN Central Police.
Under intense interrogation including physical violence and drug therapy Mr. Smith would not divulge information about his mission, he did though mumble something about Luke’s Gremlins and this person if he exists, we believe is an agent from the former Soviet Block anarchists group led by Mr. Putin.
This mystery man was finally locater near Joeys headquarters and after intense interrogation he kept singing Love in a Hot Afternoon, between outbursts of screaming SEX Drugs and Rock n` Roll.
We did contact Mrs. Johnson the self righteous biddy that lives next door, what she knew and she stated that the Joey character is sinning he had a pretty young thing on his arm at my favorite watering hole and he told me that the Lord Knows I’m Sinning and running around and I don’t need your big mouth informing the town.
In conclusion at this time it is my opinion that these are country music fans that sing country music after being given truth serum and they are no threat to us unless they go into a karaoke bar and sing, boy he can’t carry a tune.
Case Closed:
Field Agent: Nuke Puke
(double agent, brother to Luke)
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I told you so Joey!!
by RandyI told you when you go writing the White House they start watching you. Now I got you involved just because I talk with you on the computer. They arrested the commander of the Louisiana Militia and confiscated nearly 1000 firearms and a large amount of ammunition from his "compound"! They took him off screaming, "they can have my AK-47 one bullet at a time!" I must inform Randy about this! Check your six o'clock.
the chair is against the door. the chair is against the door. The eagle has landed and the fat man walks alone. the moon is blue. the moon is blue.
Agent Ydnar
PS...remember what Benjamin Franklin said, "Those that would trade a little security while surrending some of their rights, deserve neither." A close paraphrase anyway.
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Hiya Gang! anybody seen my princess?
byBAIL! Grabbed her make-up case, laptop and pillow and
jumped in the van with tears in her eyes. She said she loved me very much but she was falling apart and needed some space. That was Monday. Her close friend at work called to see if I needed anything, I guess my
Princess called her to let her know that she wouldn't be into work for a few days. I've been trying to get her to take a little vacation for weeks so I'm glad she did. I just wish it could have happened diffrently. Since the past few weeks I've been feeling so much better-the rest of the family, especialy her, have had a hard time adjusting. Let's face it, for soooo long I've been spending the bulk of my time either in bed or on the couch. Anywho....
I AM DOING PRETTY WELL! My pain is under control, I'm in the middle of a flare-up the past couple of days, but still averaging better than 3 1/2 hours of sleep at night!!!! Some of you, have it much harder than me.
Some of you have had to deal with this pain much longer than me. I am SOOOOOOO grateful things have worked out so quickly for me. THIS BOARD and YOU PEOPLE are DIRECTLY responsible for my current progress!!!!! Thank you all so very much. always-
cap :}) EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!!!!!
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Here I am Sweety!
byAll BS aside, I figured the titles would look cute together but the message hurts kind of bad. I have to admit that I know how Mrs. Cappy feels though. I was working some years from 60 to 80 hours a week and Windy was working 2 jobs and it was hell on the marriage. Then she got to quit the second job and I leveled off to about 60 hours a week and it was better then. We didn't get to see one another for about 2 years as home then was just a place to hang our hats.
Anytime that I felt stressed out and Windy and I would argue I felt it was best if one of us left so I did. I went into town and got a hotel room. Red Roof Inn is very nice! It saved our marriage several times because I hadn't learned to control my anger back then as much as now (and it still is something that I constantly have to work on!) and now I don't work and she works her butt off. Kind of like your situation, except without the arguing it sounds like.
If Windy ever needs to get out and "away" I know how she feels and I want her to go as I always returned feeling more relaxed and able to cope better so I can hope that she would do the same and maybe get some rest also. Mrs. Cappy did the right thing as only she knows how to handle her stress, same as us guys.
I bet you a dollar that when she comes home you will feel better to her when she hugs you!
Have I bored you enough now? I will shut up. I am glad that you aren't upset as you realize how she feels. You are a nice guy capster.
Take care and tell the boys howdy from alligator land!
Call if you need to,
Randy
PS...I hope you have one of those caller ID things! I had one but it died for some reason. I think one of Joeys gremlins got it!
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Mrs. Cappy on a "break"
by LauraI'm sooooooooo glad that you are finally getting the proper dose of meds now!! You had suffered sooooo long!!
As for your Princess .....a little "break" is just what she needed, and all will be fine when she returns!! I am confident on that...and she is fortunate to have a hubby who is soooo understanding to her needs!! A big "pat on the back" to you, Cappy!!!!
Laura
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I'm Baaaack!!!
byRespond to this message
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hey! Welcome home!!!
bymoments like you guys did. Geeze...I hope G & T get
to have some of that soon...I'm kinda worried bout em.
ANYWAYS....COOL! GROOOOOVY! WONDERFUL!!! Did ya get
any pictures?!?!? But...I don't know about you, but
no matter where I go or what I do....there's no place
like home, and that first day back is always...ahhhhh.
I wish ya a peaceful day, seek in a nap, and welcome
home! cap :})
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Grand Tetons!!!
by RandyWith a name like Grand Tetons, you know I gotta do it.
Did they really look like two large bosoms? That is what "Grand Teton" means you know!!!
Welcome back,
Randy >>>(insert rolling eyes smiley face here)<<<
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Hi Al !!
byBoy its great to hear from you there Idaho flash !!!
Do you smell like a ceder tree... Do you have salmon egg coloring under your fingernails ? When you close your eyes do you see a potato ?
Great to have you back AL . . . I was getting concerned as looing for someone in S. Idaho can getyou hung for being nosey ...hey the South hasn't got the corner on ignorance !!!
Welcome home !!!!
Robert
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Nice to have you back, Al.............
by LauraSounds like a great time!!!
I betcha you are already missing that snow ....as it's probably a scorcher in Az. now.
Yes...the North is great...IN THE SPRING/FALL/SUMMER...but NOT so great in the winter!!!!
That first snowfall we get each winter is the nicest, but it's all downhill after that!!!
Snow = Cold = PAIN
Snow = Shoveling
Snow = Hazzardest driving conditions/
car accidents/increased insurance premiums/
(salt)= wear-&-tear on cars
Snow on roof = Roof caving in on houses
Snow = ICE!!!!
Snow = "Snow Days" = NO SCHOOL FOR KIDDLES!!!
= $$ for sitters
(Boy...I didn't realize how much I disliked snow!!! Sorry for bringing ya'll down!!)
I don't much care for the snow, or actually for what the snow brings with it....but it IS beautiful to watch a snowfall from the comforts of your own home, with your family by your side, sipping on piping hot chocolate with bunches of mini marshmallows on top, with a fire in the fireplace blazing and crackling!!
But aside from that white stuff, you're right about the North being "Gods Country" !!! It's an absolutely beautiful,scenic place!!!
Glad to have you back here with us, Al!!
Laura
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What to say
byI don't begrudge the doc his vacation..I just hate anyone who causes Terry pain.. maybe I'll get over it but I never undrstood why a splice to the catheter when it was broken............................we sure saved money here......................................
Cappy would you please scream until I feel better??
Ya'll keep praying..
It's one and I'm gonna try to lay down for a few..
Blessings, Gracie
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eek?
byI just don't understand. Give big hughs for me, will
ya? Of corse you guys are in my thoughts. A scream?
You got it...EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!!! cough....EEEEEEEK!
well....I feel better... :}) always- cap
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eeek?
byI just don't understand. Give big hughs for me, will
ya? Of corse you guys are in my thoughts. A scream?
You got it...EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!!! cough....EEEEEEEK!
well....I feel better... :}) always- cap
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Hey, buddy can you spare a roof ? Alarming study !!!
bya short letter and link to this data , it will be sent to all U.S. Senators and Congress-people.
In the last 10 years, those of us with disabilities who cannot work have had a cost of living increase
of $.98 an hour based on SSDI's $541.00 a month insurance check. This is to say that if we worked a 40 hour week, we would be making $3.38 an hour. In 1990 that figure was $2.40 an hour.
The effects of this type of income are staggering.
for the reason below and for many others , as we cannot seem to get patients rights , caps on the cost of needed medications,
and for some of us, the government has increased the
SSI/SSDI check so that medications are not covered like they are for Medicaid.
So, if your SSDI check is $750 a month or more , this cancels help with medicine, leaves you with doctor bills that are the difference between what Medicare pays and what the MD charges , (this is also true of hospital care )
and you have what is called a "spend-down" . This means you must incur approx. $700 worth of MD bills
(medications do NOT count toward the spend-down) for 3 months in a row , then you are eligible for Medicaid for 3 months only).
But the government like a typical insurance co. or HMO, pays the extra $200 knowing they will be far ahead in the end not having to cover medications ,
a % of all MD's fee's , hospital fee's , food, transportation expenses, and you do NOT qualify for many emergency programs available to Medicaid patients (I assume Joey $.50 bussing all over the state is because he qualifies for Medicaid and there
are a few amenities here (but very few) .. I urge you all to write --NOT E-Mail-- (it just gets deleted) every politician you can think of and let them know you have been a hard working , productive, TAX PAYING constituent, but because you can see no relief in drugs ,housing, medicine, food, child care expenses, transportation, virtually any bare necessity
you can think of, your going to vote for the person that can get these thing done..
What a national disgrace when we cannot take care of those who have paid tens of thousands (some millions) of dollars in taxes when we worked and now that we need the insurance we paid for, we will not even receive enough to put a roof over your head, let alone turn on a light. . . This is disgraceful , and a comment on the greed that directs monies into weapons, gives huge tax breaks for the wealthiest corporations in the world, wants to build Star Wars when the threat is clearly from domestic terrorism, will NOT cap medication costs, channels government expenditures away from the needy and gives General Budget monies to the "haves" .. It is time for a change... It is time to sweep the merchants from the temple, it is time to let politicians know that there is deep disenchantment with their irresponsible behaviors.
When someone like myself voices my opinions on helping the needy, I inevitably get called a socialist.
Well capitalism has a place and if left unguarded it chews up and spits out the compassionate branch some call socialism. Socialism and bureaucracies do not have to be synonymous.. I know MD's faint dead away
when anyone suggests SOCILISM and medicine.. Well what the hell is Medicare if its now government controlled
medicine ? We have it..... we just need to make it BETTER !!! The reality is that if only the rich can afford MD's we run the risk of incurring problems like Africa where the general population is virtually
inundated with disease, plague (HIV), paracites, infectious diseases, infant mortality is high, and Africa in many health area's is simply too comlex, to costly, to labor intense, to do anything about.
These diseases will have to take their courses and those with immunity will last, but what about the inevitable airborne pathogen, that like AIDS there will be no cure, and everyone on earth will be vunerable. Global health is no different than singular health, if it is let go, left unattended, the body
will become incurable. Health must be kept up be it individual or the globe. We are all downwind of a potential malady that is left unchecked. Primary
medicine is preventative medicine. Any MD will tell you its better to prevent illness than treat it.
If we continue to allow a population of persons with poor health to increase the health of all will be in jeprody. There are more people with chronic illness today than at any other time. This is a directly proportionate to the amount of persons getting adequate health care .
If socialism is treating people who's only crime is a disability, with dignity, compassion, providing the essentials of shelter, food, health, and education thus improving our society as a whole, let there be socialism as the alternative is greedy bastards who have lost any empathy with those who helped put those millions in their pockets ... I do not feel nearly as bad for 500 persons that get pink-slipped from
Boeing or IBM because they can go elsewhere, do other things , retrain, collect un-employment and statistics say they may not get their yearly cruise to the Bahamas but they re-integrate back into the work-force in approx. 3.3 months .
Many have jobs lined up before they are layed-off.
But the disabled cannot just change jobs, takeout loans , sell assets, their malady has stripped them of everything.
We cannot let greedy basturds put the disabled in the street because they are too greedy to give back to what has made them rich. If this sounds revolutionary it is !! In the last 10 years my medications have gone from $150 per month
to $1300.00 a month, I had to sell my home, my new Bronco, my land, my collections, from guns to antique glass,
my toys, and my kids had to do with a lot less than when I was making 6 figures a year ..
During that time I paid 1/2 million dollars personally in taxes in 10 years. As a small business with only 125 employee's
I still paid right around 1.2 million in taxes a year for 14 years. Iv paid this damn government damn near 20 million
in taxes in my life and I could be homeless tomorrow.
I want to live in a place where there is reciprocation, I never bitched a peep overpaying tax, I thought it only fair that
I paid money to make money , and I was naive enough to think my millions in taxes were doing some person that needed help
good. But its simply not the case .... Sorry for the hour lecture but I know you will find the study below fascinating
tragic, sad, and if you don't feel anger, you'll never hear the train that runs you down. Good reading, - - -- Robert
***"""""In 2000, there was not one single housing market in the country where a person
with a disability receiving SSI/SSDI benefits could afford to rent a modest efficiency or one-bedroom unit. """""*****
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Study below><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
NEW REPORT SHOWS DRAMATIC INCREASE IN HOUSING AFFORDABILITY PRICES
FOR NON-ELDERLY ADULTS WITH DISABILITES.
In an update of data first compiled several years ago, a new report documents
that individuals with severe disabilities face a worsened crisis accessing
affordable housing. This new report, "Priced Out in 2000: The Crisis
Continues," was published by The Technical Assistance Collaborative Inc. and the
Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities (CCD) Housing Task Force earlier this
month. Copies of "Priced Out in 2000" (http://www.c-c-d.org/POin2000.html) and
the initial report are available at the website for "Opening Doors," a
publication on housing advocacy, at http://www.c-c-d.org/doors.html >
The report uses the federal housing affordability standard for very low-income
households that suggests that no more than 30% of monthly income should be spent
on housing. In 2000, the federal SSI program provided an individual with a
disability a monthly income of $512. Based on that figure, the "Priced Out"
report documents that in every state and major rental housing market, people
with severe disabilities receiving SSI benefits were "priced out" of the market
-- unable to afford a modest efficiency or one bedroom apartment.
In addition to findings at the national level, this report also includes
geographically specific income and housing cost data for people with
disabilities receiving SSI in each of the 2,703 housing market areas of the
United States. According to the report, individuals receiving SSI are among the
lowest income households in the country. Compared to the hourly minimum wage of
$5.15, the SSI monthly benefit is equal to $3.23 per hour, up a meager 14 cents
from 1998.
Other alarming findings are:
- People with disabilities continued to be the poorest people in the nation. As
a national average, SSI benefits in 2000 were equal to only 18.5 percent of the
one-person median household income, and fell below 20 percent of median income
for the first time in over a decade.
- In 2000, people with disabilities receiving SSI benefits needed to pay - on a
national average - 98 percent of their SSI benefits in order to be able to rent
a modest one-bedroom unit at Fair Market Rent, published by the U.S. Department
of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).
- Cost of living adjustments to SSI benefit levels did not keep pace with the
increasing cost of rental housing. Between 1998 and 2000, rental housing costs
rose almost twice as much as the income of people with disabilities.
- In 2000, there was not one single housing market in the country where a person
with a disability receiving SSI benefits could afford to rent a modest
efficiency or one-bedroom unit.
- "Housing wage" data from the National Low Income Housing Coalition shows that
people with disabilities who received SSI/SSDI benefits needed to triple their income
to be able to afford a decent one-bedroom unit. On average, SSI benefits are
equal to an hourly rate of $3.23, only one third of the National Low Income
Housing Coalition's housing wage, and almost $2 below the federal minimum wage.
From the Pain management Co-op's perspective this report contains important data about the inability
of single adults with severe disibilities to sufficiently access decent,
safe, and affordable housing. Numerous studies have shown that stable,
affordable housing is the cornerstone of recovery, positive treatment outcomes,
and successful community reintegration. This study graphically demonstrates
that people with disabilities living on SSI or SSDI are simply priced out of our
nation's rental housing market - people who should be among the most deserving
of housing assistance. Unfortunately, our nation's affordable housing system
has a mixed record in serving non-elderly adults with severe disabilities.
(both in terms of HUD programs and state and local agencies).
In the absence of a stronger commitment from the affordable housing system,
people with severe disibilities will increasingly be forced to rely on
inappropriate alternatives, such as living at home with aging parents, in
crowded homeless shelters, in institutions or nursing homes, and (increasingly)
in state and local jails and prisons. The stress on these inappropriate
settings are certain to be compounded over the next few years as states come
under pressure to move people with severe disabilities from institutions into
the community under the Supreme Court's .
The Olmstead decision http://www.disabilityresources.org/OLMSTEAD.html
This report contains a series of recommendation for federal, state and local policymakers to refocus
their housing policies, programs and resources to ensure that people with severe
disabilities do not continue to be "priced out" of the housing market.
PMCo-op advocates can find additional valuable information on affordable housing
issues for people with severe disibilities through the NAMI policy web page
at http://www.nami.org or at the Opening Doors website at
http://www.c-c-d.org/doors.html. also visit the TAC website
at http://www.tacinc.org and the CCD Housing Task Force website at
http://www.c-c-d.org/tf-housing.htm.
House Appropriations Committee Set To Take Up FY 2002 HUD Budget
It is expected that a key House subcommittee will soon take up consideration of
the FY 2002 Budget with the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).
Many advocacy groups are continuing to advocate for greater share of HUD's $30 billion dollar
budget to be targeted to non-elderly adults living on SSI/SSDI. Specifically, I believe we should
e pushing our Representatives in Congress to include the following items in HUD's budget:
- incentives for states and localities to target their large, mainstream block
grant programs (HOME and CDBG) to develop rental housing serving people with
severe disabilities,
- a set aside of $50 million dollars for tenant-based rental assistance for
people with disabilities adversely affected by designations of public and
assisted housing as "elderly only,"
- a substantial increase in funding for the section 811 program, up to $346
million dollars,
- continuation of the 30 percent permanent housing set aside in the McKinney -
Vento Homeless Assistance Program with separate funding for renewal of all
expiring Shelter Plus Care and SHP permanent housing rent subsidies.
To help bring you up to speed here, I found a copy of NAMI 's testimony before Congress on the HUD budget can be accessed on on the NAMI Web site at http://www.nami.org/update/vahudappr.html
The national alliance for the Mentally Ill has an impressive track record in their efforts in lobbying
procueing monies, and legislation to help the Mentally Ill ...
The "National Alliance for the Menatlly Ill" is a group I'v watched for years and am ever so impressed in their
abilities to get things DONE ! Would that the pain community could unite under an Ego-less banner and
address issues like the above . If not now , when ? When e are homeless and can't afford a new computer ?
We all have a word processing program , (if you don't you can down load many of the software programs for free. )
You can put the addy's of your reps in an address book , write a letter, and print it and SENT IT..
You voice is needed
Thanks, Robert
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whupped
byI have been buried in the darkness and it proves ugly. I have taken one step out but that scares me as it is usually then two or three back down to that same hole. That is only a part...
My wife and my b-day's are two days apart. 18th and 20th this month. We normally don't celebrate 'large' anyway but this year was the worst. I slept. I stayed down for over 36 straight. Talk about a downer. She was so upset although she knows. That does not make it any easier.
This past weekend we went to St. Pete for a ballgame. We took one extra day and went to spend the day at an unfamiliar beach and night in a room of comfort. I began snapping out of it a little around midnight on that beach (Treasure Island). It was magnificent. The sand was shelly so harder!! The stars were peeking through the clouds and the temp was perfect. It made for a great trip. Oh, and we beat the d_ Yankees too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The trips to the 'darkness' seem to be getting deeper. I don't know if that means future trouble...
We leave Thurs for IN. We will be in N IN Joey or I would drop you a line and we could meet!!!! We are celerating a future birth into my sis-in-laws- family. So a surprise trip for a shower and (no, I get to go play somewhere else!!!) a visit to family will be hard but good for Dawn. Her family is small so if we can be there for the surprise 'party' it will be more fun for them. I will visit friends and others!!! Gone a week will be a test I don't need right now but.....
Sorry for the disappearance. My pain is high and the mind is weaker than normal. Gracie, tell Terry he is in our thoughts. Robert, make sure everyone knows that your H story is a different Vince!!!!!!!! All others, I have enjoyed reading your banter as it has been very appropo and informative. Keep it up as I don't have much to give right now. I hate being a consumer only.
Have a great day and if I don't write before I leave I will see ya'll next month! Take care and keep on keepin' on!!!
Peace, Vince B.
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PS
by VBVB
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Yo Vinnie!
by RandyTake care Vince,
Randy
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Vince we need to chat . . . OK ?
byAs hard as it is , the best thing for depression is to get it OUT.. Depression has a hard time with the light of day. Vince, I know how depression saps your energy, and I know how it feels to blow off writing, or talking with your family here, BUT first, who understands better than us. Who has pulled their pants
down in public and took a great chance sharing their very private feelings with us ....We all have.
Hell, depression is a ball and chain, and yes its most likely bio-chemical.. But you are such a capable person,
your smart, articulate, plus you have empathy for all of us.
If you knew I was hurting I know you would extend a helping hand. So how can we work on getting the light of day back in your life and getting away from the black holes ?
Can I ask you a few questions ?
Is your depression floating i.e. just there, not attached to anything, or is it a result of chronic and constant pain ?
You know what the rule on pain is ... if your in dysfunctional pain , you need to get out of pain to see clearly. Pain will not allow you the freedom or luxury
of clear decision making.
If you need a new Doc lets get one !!!!
If you don't know what causes your depression you don't need a guessing game, you may need to get on a anti-depressant long enough to see if that will help.
(just a note here, I tried probably 12-15 different
anti-depressants and until I tried Welbutrin I may as well been taking M&M's.
I was still a cryin and a moaning over my divorce,
2 1/2 years after the fact. It was devastating
and I couldn't shake it.. I spent a year in therapy
and that didn't do a darn thing.
My present Doc suggested I try more new designer
drugs like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, even Cylert and
Acendin...........NOTHING .................
Then he gave me Welbutrin and in only one week I was 75% depression free and within the month that went to
95% ... I can feel sadness, the blues, disappointment
even rejection but it doesn't hang on like a leach.
What can we do as your friends and as a group or
individually to help ??
Oh , I don't think anyone associated you with my H story if so there is absolutely NO connection here !!!!
If you wish write to me offline, because I can't stand to hear when our family is hurting. how can we help ??
Will you let us try .. You wanna chat ??
Please let me know.
Robert
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Hurts to get out and hurts not to
byI know that for brief periods I can see light when am out or doing something that breaks through the blackness. My hold up is that getting out may be good for the mind but I always overdo with my body. That takes very little to do that. It is as if I can have one or the other but not both.
My doc will not stop trying. The pain is lessened by his efforts. He also will change my anti-dep med when we return. He did not want to do it while I was away and that, for me, is a good idea. I am allergic to more and more meds and being away and having that happen would be even worse.
The carpal tunnel (good for you Deb!!!!) is not taken care of yet and that is the only surgical option right now. The neck and back just slow me and hurt constantly but it is somewhat controlled. At my last appt last week the doc said something about getting me back to an active life. I stated that I am far from that right now. So him knowing that will make him try all the harder. I am so limited and am still trying to find my 'niche' in this journey. I keep thinking that in time that will happen. It is just that it seems to be taking so long...
Blood tests await my return as we want to cancel out anything else going on inside.
Robert, maybe we can chat when I get back from up north. We have discussed that before but it needs to be done. I will make that happen when I get back here.
Thanks for all your kind words and thoughts. Much appreciated.
You all have a good week while I am away and to liven me up I may ask if she wants to become a member of the 30,000 feet club! Just kidding although this past weekend I will tell you all (with a blush!) that I did rediscover what sex feels like. If there is one bright spot in the past week then that was it! When that can happen it must! The body is not often willing. Enough of that ....
Take care and I feel for you Gracie, (for Terry) and others that are going through a hard time. There is no sub for good health. May we all know how that feels.
Peace, Vince B.
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Vince --Parting shot
byYou have the trip of your life....
I'm very encouraged you have a Doc that will work with you. To have him say he wants to get you back in the saddle is what going to Docs is all about.
As long as he doesn't have a military mentality
"if they can breath they can shoot " ..
May I just suggest one thing.
With the change of meds , and particularly
different anti-depressants, it is important to establish a data base so you know where you are and where you have been. The best way I know how to do that is to keep a journal.
Mind-you most anti-d's take 3-6 weeks to attain therapeutic serum levels. It is so hard to tell subtle changes day to day but keeping a journal of pain ---
(Check Randall's pain scale . )
http://www2.rpa.net/~lrandall/painscale.html
Lois has a great printable form...
you can copy and print, thus marking your pain daily.
Then for depression, if you create several scales concerning how you feel about the things that depress you .
i.e. Numeric scale : 1-10 where 1=worst 10=best
Question: How do I feel about my future.
Monday: 2 AM 5 PM
Tues. 3 AM 4 PM
Where # = from 1 to 10 and you take inventory twice to 3 times a day .
Question : Do I think tomorrow will be a better day than today ?
Question: I feel I'm making improvements with my depression.
Again here a one would be a emphatic no -- 10 would be a emphatic yes -- & 5 would be "I don't feel one way or the other."
So you might want to keep a database for you and your Doc..
If your Doc says "I feel your well now' and you don't, a journal can be very compelling.
The questions are just examples Vince , if these work for you good ... You may have issues you want to chart
and plot..
You can take this data after 3 months and do meaningful inferential statistics... Just by plotting
days on the X axis and 1 to 10 on the Y axis
three months will show a trend..
Lets chat when you get back if you have Excel on your puter you can do all this very easily.
Let me know when your back ..
P.S. Sex or your libido is a good indicator of
your emotional state. So many anti-D's kill the libido
so that is something you want to chart also.
If you change meds and your libido goes away or gets better, you have a meaningful statistic, in black and white.
Till then have a great time !
Robert
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Thanks
by VincePEACE to all. I will miss reading.
Vince
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Hurts to get out and hurts not to
byI know that for brief periods I can see light when am out or doing something that breaks through the blackness. My hold up is that getting out may be good for the mind but I always overdo with my body. That takes very little to do that. It is as if I can have one or the other but not both.
My doc will not stop trying. The pain is lessened by his efforts. He also will change my anti-dep med when we return. He did not want to do it while I was away and that, for me, is a good idea. I am allergic to more and more meds and being away and having that happen would be even worse.
The carpal tunnel (good for you Deb!!!!) is not taken care of yet and that is the only surgical option right now. The neck and back just slow me and hurt constantly but it is somewhat controlled. At my last appt last week the doc said something about getting me back to an active life. I stated that I am far from that right now. So him knowing that will make him try all the harder. I am so limited and am still trying to find my 'niche' in this journey. I keep thinking that in time that will happen. It is just that it seems to be taking so long...
Blood tests await my return as we want to cancel out anything else going on inside.
Robert, maybe we can chat when I get back from up north. We have discussed that before but it needs to be done. I will make that happen when I get back here.
Thanks for all your kind words and thoughts. Much appreciated.
You all have a good week while I am away and to liven me up I may ask if she wants to become a member of the 30,000 feet club! Just kidding although this past weekend I will tell you all (with a blush!) that I did rediscover what sex feels like. If there is one bright spot in the past week then that was it! When that can happen it must! The body is not often willing. Enough of that ....
Take care and I feel for you Gracie, (for Terry) and others that are going through a hard time. There is no sub for good health. May we all know how that feels.
Peace, Vince B.
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Have a great trip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by LauraI wish you peaceful and pain-free travels....
(or at least low-pain)!!!!
Also,glad to hear Dr. is willing to help you out when you return. You've been hurting for far too long, friend!!
Laura
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Good Grief Vince...
byshare some of your load. I always feel kinda stupid
at times like these, I mean I wish I had some profound
words to make ya feel better. You are and will be in
my thoughts Buddy. I wish you peace, and I wish you
light. You have been there for me in days gone by when
it felt like my days were short. You and others told me to hang on and things would get better. And you
know what? THEY DID!!!!!! I'm doing so much better
these days! I guess I'm very glad I'm still here to see it! :}) Ah man...I wish for you everything you dream of, and all that you need. Hope this trip has
wonderful moments for ya.
always- cap
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The Heat Is On....................................................
byRespond to this message
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Hot here too !!!!
byRespond to this message
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Hot and humid!!!!!!!!!!!!
byWhen we were finally allowed to visit my mother she had a place on Banana Lake that had no A/C and it gets hot and humid down there, it does here also but the 60% nights are with us until July and August so it is bearable at night most of the time.
Joey
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North to Alaska
byNow Deb......I gotta a bone to pick ..
what if all that sun.. 95 degrees ...
was snow... do you know we get snow for 4 months
in a row on the ground , ice, wind, blowing cold,
and that cold white stuff ... Hell isn't hot, hell is
30 below and 4 feet of snow -- forever..
That weather has to be good for what ever ails you.
and I'm jealous. Good luck on the 25th ..
You might send a signed / received i.e. registered letter. Well enjoy your heat.. its about 59 degrees
wind and chilly tonight. Perhaps I can see Mars
I bet the weather is better on Mars than it is here ..
Robert
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Robert..Robert...
byRespond to this message
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Roses!
by RandyIf that would have been my last boss I could have gotten away with sending him a note of thanks and I would have also included this message...
_______________________________________________________
Dear Jim,
Thank you so much for the three dozen red roses. Next time however, please send the $180.00 instead!
xoxoxo,
Randy
-------------------------------------------------------
hehehehehe(ALWS) Take care,
Randy
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Roses don't grow in snow
bybut diamonds are a girls best friend. . .
Just how much does he miss you ????
I'd hold out for expensive gifts on a regular schedule..This guy has a lot of making up to do. . .
70 degrees year around - -- San Diego -----
some of the best weather in the world .
9,99999 ba-zillion people and expensive to live..
How about Cost Rica. If I could get my SSDI sent to
Mid America I would go there. There are many Americans that have moved there and if you didn't know better you'd think you were in downtown El Paso.
Bandon Ore. on the S. Coast of
Ore. its a beautiful place and a sun belt..
Temp averages 70 year around and nobody knows
where the hell it is. As you approach the Cal. border on the Oregon Coast the populations drop, the
area is beautiful and you have many of the conveniences of big cities .. Why is it that people that live in Florida never come out ?
It always appeared to have a lot of people there.
You get SNOW ? in Florida ? Well I will report to you from Oregon in 4 mo. and you will not hear me gripping
But I can't help but think that a place like
Phoenix would be good for arthritis and connective
tissue maladies. I had a job offer in Albuquerque
but I have big green Fir trees in my blood, and if
there are no salmon, elk, moose, a huge green canopy.
The dessert is for jack rabbits and rattlesnakes.
We call Spokane the hub of the inland wastelands.
but its a short sentence. . .
Robert
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Scorched earth policy by the insurance companies.
by JoeyOf course all states are different but of all of the dirty tricks that W/C is allowed to get by with the paperwork is something that they can get nailed on, your boss probably doesn’t have the protection that the insurance companies and I would keep an accurate record of every word and a small tape recorder held in your hand or anything that looks like one if you see him in person may scare him.
I know of all of the lies and deceit that my first case was about the one thing that had to be done is the paperwork.
If it doesn’t get done you get no money, his reluctance makes me wonder if he is up on his taxes and required paperwork your SS and such.
If he persists I would get a lawyer because he could keep you from getting paid and I believe that lying to the state labor board and things involving them is about the only thing in some states that they even have to pay a penalty for.
I returned to work after my employer got the Dr to falsify his papers (I caught it and it was changed back) and after going back to work I didn’t get a paycheck for WORKING for about 3 months, I got sympathetic phone calls from the home office day after day telling me that the paperwork was sent and then the local office told me it wasn’t it is all a big fraudulent game that is legal, if there is a hell these people will snap crackle and pop, and I would not empty a full bladder on them to cool them down.
I would feel better if they hired someone to break my legs but this is the result of lobbying the state reps into writing bills that rape the worker.
Now in Pa. If you got injured on the job and they paid you for 3 weeks and then had no job for you but there was a job listing in the newspaper and you and 1000 people applied they can stop paying you on the presumption that a job WAS available even is you didn’t get it, the laws look like thy were written by and for the mafia, Judge Stokes told a graduating class of lawyers that they now had the right to work in Pa but don’t get hurt, he is a man that wasn’t bought off.
Joey
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wow, your scaring me....
byRespond to this message
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Rest don`t wory until you have a reason.
byI didn’t say what my experience was would happen to you or anyone else but keep the records and keep your eyes open and if you have trouble don’t listen to BS and think all is well they can blow hot air up your bloomers so fast and if you feel hot air in the rear area recognize it.
If they told you that you have x amount of $ in the mail wait it should be there………
If they lie one time get a lawyer and let him worry about it they are professionals at making a persons life miserable.
I hope all goes well for you.
Joey
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Relax I am sorry
byI am sorry if I frightened you that was not my intent at all it is my story and I have been looking into this W/C again and Travelers merged with Aetna and then US Healthcare or something like that and they are in court for regular insurance so it is standard operating procedure for them and I am unable to be objective.
Not knowing the law can cost for the rest of your life, if I knew what I now know things would be different so rest and enjoy and if something happens then worry.
My employer got involved from the first hours and she didn’t want a lost day injury reported and she would call and I would not get to a phone before the machine got it and she said I was out around town but I had the long distance bills returning her calls within 5 minutes or so and it really made her look stupid in court.
She was like Mrs. Olsen on Little House she called my doctor many times and the insurance company every day it made her feel important, but we had ice and snow 12 inches thick that I would not always break through and the judge knew I was not running around in that.
All that you need to do is rest and sign no papers and get well, if a problem arises I have pages with information so get a tan and enjoy the time off.
Joey
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WC and TV
by RandyI saw a TV show that did nothing but show people cheating WC and SSDI. People that were suppose to be in bed in pain and were out dancing and the one I remember the most was a guy that was helping a friend roof his house and he was supposed to be bedridden with back pain and the PI that was taping him on the roof even caught him on film falling off of the roof!!! Hell, he got back on the ladder and went back up and kept on nailing!!! (He lost his benefits!)
Sometimes I wish I were able to do stuff like that but then again...you never know who is watching you!!! Insurance companies have been known to call neighbors and try to pump them for info into what claimants do and some will even offer money to their neighbors to watch them and report back to either a PI or a case worker for the insurance company. I ain't paranoid I am just repeating some of the stuff I saw on that TV program and Private Investigators are good at their jobs, at least the ones I saw. These were also people making claims of over several hundred thousand dollars also so when money is at stake these insurance companies get real serious about people sueing them! Sheesh, Wonder why?!
Take care,
Randy
PS..Like I said, I ain't paranoid...I just don't trust many people!
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I saw them
by JoeyI have seen these also and it hurts the rest of us but they will NEVER do a show about the deceit of the insurance companies.
They could catch me looking fine and walking ok outside but they will never see me sitting here hurting.
I almost went to the Dr again yesterday but why?
My hip to foot hurt so bad my foot was feeling like I had inserted 6 razor blades in a brush handle and kept cutting down the side of my foot all day, it was pretty painful and still hurts some.
It is nothing new so I can’t worry about it.
Joey
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antabuse--revisited-
by"I lost my apartment, I lost my job, I lost my car. I lost many, many things. I lost many members of my family," says, Emma, a former heroin user.
Former heroin user Vince says, "I would get high no matter what, a good day, a bad day, it didn't matter."
For Emma and Vince, casual heroin use turned into a nightmare. Both desperately wanted help.
Vince says, "When you take away my ability to get high, then I can get clean."
Researchers took away Vince and Emma's abilities to get high during a study at Johns Hopkins Medical University in Baltimore, by giving them injections of Naltrexone Depot. It blocks the effects of opiates. Psychologist George Bigelow, Ph.D., led the study.
"The real value and the real hope with this long acting depot medication is that it will be more successful in delivering an effective treatment," says Dr. Bigelow.
During the six-week study, volunteers under close monitoring also periodically received low doses of a drug that would normally cause them to feel high.
Dr. Bigelow explains, "Each week, the volunteers would visit the laboratory and be tested once again to see if they were responsive to narcotics."
The Naltrexone Depot showed success.
"The volunteers responsiveness to narcotics was very, very powerfully suppressed," says Dr. Bigelow.
In fact, the drug is still helping Vince, six months after the study. He says, "This here, I'm a believer because it's happening to me."
Dr. Bigelow says the Naltrexone Depot should be administered after narcotic users are already clean. He says it is best used as a relapse-prevention tool
Robert
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High?
by RandyRats(HA),
Randy
PS...Oh well, I would rather not hurt than to get high anyways. If I wanted to get messed up I could always drink some scotch and water but my pain clinic would bounce my butt out the door so it really isn't worth it afterall.
I told a nephew of mine who likes to smoke yard clippings that "why mess with that mood altering drug when you can go to a state sponsored store (ATF Tax Stamp)and legally buy the most powerful mood altering drug known to mankind? Your local liquor store." I have to give this one another...Go figger!
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High 2 sigh................
by JoeyI believe fair is fair the owner of the liquor store is owed the money that I would have spent, as if Tom needs more money he is floating in his government pension money not counting the 2 liquor stores he bought with ill begotten money, big chief for the government war machine.
Now I am on the gold standard for abuse and I will be darned if I can figure out what the abuse potential is on morphine, I never got anything but sweating and a sick at my stomach feeling when I first started taking it so what’s up did I get the de-buzzed pills also, I must sit down with my pharmacist and see if he will order a different brand!
Maybe if I put one in a Johnny Walker & water I could get a buzz, any suggestions appreciated, and help for the loss of the liquor store can be sent to me I will be sure he gets it yeh right………..
Foster Broo…
Joey
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Fly-weight
byI too have been denied..
And if I were to grab the thick end of a McNaughtons
bottle and read what's on the bottom of the inside of the bottle, my liver would take the elevator to the basement. I read that a glass of wine a day can lower blood pressure, have anti-oxidants, decrease LDL,
and correct male pattern baldness ( no ? well,
they will tell you anything to get you to buy
booze) so I went to the store , and spent at least an hour picking out 2 small bottles of good Chardonnay (1)
and Gwerwitstrimmer (1) (is this a German hound, or what ? )
Ok so I come home look my better half in the eye and
announce my NEW PLAN to better health...
She just shook her head and told me that I was to clean up any accidents on the bathroom floor I made.
"Hey, I'm only gunna drink 6 ounces and that at most will make me more congenial and easier to get along with, right ? "
She walks away mumbling something about once a
wino always ........... hey !!! I never did like wine
so this is an experiment... OK !!! You like M&M's
and Popsicles, does that make you a sugar junkie..?? .. I just wanna try a little vino..
How they can cause guilt like a 2nd grade nun I'll never know......but I chilled those bottles for at least a month...then came the day I made scratch spaghetti (venison) and French bread ... and heck
why not ... Its just 6 oz. .... well it tasted like
someone put 1/4 Tsp. sugar in lemon juice, and
I'm thinking this should be enjoyable, relaxing,
soothing, and I just swigged it down like I used to take Cod Liver Oil ... dinner went great,it removed the sour taste in my mouth. . but the next
morning I felt like I had drank a gallon of Gallo Red.
My liver hurt, my head hurt, my mouth was dry, and
"I told you so" was in my face ....
Does anybody know of something else that falls under
the sin-tax substances that I can try.. methotrixate
(anti-arthritic DMARD) and vino make for Swiss cheese
liver and kidneys..but there has to be a vice somewhere
I can imbibe and not feel guilt, sick, used, stupid,
and need a whole bottle of Maalox to just quit burping up sour grapes ... I'm open to suggestions .
Lets see No nicotine, alcohol, illicit drugs,
ice cream, sex, or over 1/2 hour of TV at one setting.
You would think I'd be the picture of good health
but that isn't the case and all work and no play
is going to make me old... Hey Capster, when this
quarters out I have friends in Bend I have not seen
in some time, perhaps we can get together and you can finish off my 1.75 bottles of wine.. I'm just a mere shadow of me former self.. Robert
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Terry's not well
byBlessings,Gracie
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Oh no.....
byLove,
Liz
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In my thoughts
by BonnieI am very sorry to hear that Terry is not well. You and Terry will both be in my thoughts. Please keep us posted.
-Bonnie
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hope for quick resolution
byDoc's need vacations but it should be against the law
for them to go when you need them !!
I hope this is resolved by the time you read this..
Our thoughts and hopes are with you ...
Robert
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Prayers.
by RandyRandy & Windy
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Thinking of you guys...
byRespond to this message
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Wishing Terry a place in the front of the line
byIt does seem that things happen when the person that can help is not available Murphy has a strange way of knowing when to strike but thank heaven it is not after closing time on a Friday before a holiday.
I believe that he has the Fentanyl in his and that is something that a person can get a prescription for except the lozenges and I have heard that they are quite expensive and very short acting but my memory tells me that Terry has something for breakthrough that may help some with W/D symptoms until he can get a refill.
I can assume that any Dr that deals with these devices has someone to take care of these events and I hope that he takes care of things in a timely manner.
It is good that Terry has experience and he will not make matters worse by getting too excited.
The best of luck Terry,
Joey
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Wotsup Gracie ???
byYou left us hanging ----how is Terry doing??
did the sub-doc do a good job ?
Are things ok ? Ya gotta keep us up on this stuff !
Thank you Robert
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Oh Gracie....my thoughts are with you both
byall pray that everything works out well.
youz both will be in my thoughts. cap
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State regulations for controlled substances.
by JoeyData-base of State Laws, Regulations, and Other Official Governmental Policies for the use of controlled substances for chronic pain.
This list is partial list as I found it on the web.
http://www.medsch.wisc.edu/painpolicy/matrix.htm
Joey
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Hiya Friends!...nothing profound to share...just jabber'in :})
byevening? The Scott & Spencer Show went to bed early
(under protest), they have had some late nights. Mrs.
Cappy and I are just puter'in. Had some energy and got our network up and running. Sooooo I'm on mine and she's got her Laptop plugged into the network, now we can BOTH be on the Internet! She's chasing some long lost ancestors and I'm yap'in at you folks! Lights on low, soft music, sitt'in right behind one another...
just having a grand ole time YAPP'IN!!!! Yap...Yap...Yap. :}) After 15 years, this is what it has come to, THIS IS SO...SO...SO COMFORTABLE. My pain tonight is VERY managable too...God this is WONDERFUL!!!!!!! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!!!! :})
a very peaceful and gentle evening to you all,
a very content cap.
:})
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To all friends of PMCo-op
byyou folks mean too much to just disappear in the
111's & 0000's so can I get some word from
Al - - - Liz-Beth -- Clarice - - -Mellisa ----
Laura ---- Laurie - - Scott - - - Bonnie
Vince !!!! Where are ou cme out come out Vince !!!
Iv not heard anyting from Gracie con/ meeting in Sept. FDA
and you kno wwho you are..... let us know how you are ..
Its not fair to leave us hanging... well you can leave Randy hanging he looks better that way..
he's so darn tall he can hang and his feet still touch the trap-door. . .
Robert oh and Dr. B we still love ya !!!
Robert
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I'm still here :)
by My pain levels have been real high so I am trying to cope with this. I go to a new pain doctor this Thursday so wish me luck. I have a wonderful family that are with me all the way so I'm ok there. I just wish things had worked out with my marriage it is like a death after all of these years but I have been like locked up and now to have such peace with no one screaming it is wonderful. Well it is late and I must try to sleep, I thank all of you for thinking of me and pray for me to have the strength to try to put together a life for myself and children. Respond to this message
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Spring
byI hope ou know that there is life after long
relationships. I did my 22 years. 2 1/2 kids
1 = step-son. One day there was an eclipse I though would never allow the light of the sun to shine again.
I kept my eyes to the ground for about 5 years clarice, and didn't know how to look up in the sky.
like the tides, the wind, rain, the rushing water in a river things were changed by time.
You have the support and love of your family,
and you have time on your side, and like the leaves on trees spring will come again.
You are in all of our hopeful thoughts
Robert
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Many prayers
byblessings, Gracie
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I replied to the pain meeting below
byHave a blessed day.
Gracie
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On it. . . .
byShe has friends in places from Purdue to the U.S. Senate. So, we should get some news on this soon.
We are on a break this summer (thank God)
but Cris showed an interest and she can cover more ground in a n hour than I can in a week
Robert
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Hi!
byI'm here! I've had family in town for the past week and just found out today they're staying a little bit longer. I'm so worn out ;;huff huff;;
How are you feeling this week? Any better? I hope you're healing!
Take care,
Liz
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thanks !!!!
byactually since the last surgery I cannot be on my feet longer than 10 min. and my whole leg swells
- - - off to the doc this week , hope your in-laws are understanding and you can be yourself around your family.. We can't continually be what we're not..
I had to get an unlisted phone and leave no forwarding address as I have had it with each and every member of my family ...I want nothing from them, but they never learned the adage 'If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all. . .. "
Each had to let me know in their individually disgusting way, how "disappointed they were I wasn't the person I was 10 years ago...
Well SCREW EM !!!! I got a uni-lateral total DIVORCE
from them ALL and hope their rightious crap comes back to haunt them ...gee how did I get that serious all of a sudden ... Sorry !! <g>
Robert
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Survival......
by JoeyI believe that everyone has buttons that can be pushed that bring out the way that we feel about the bad or painful parts in our life.
I still get grief about drinking and smoking left handed cigarettes and one I have not had in15 years the other is 4 years or more.
I could no more drink a beer today than I could jump over my truck.
People want to remember you how they see you in their mind, just a few of my family members have seen me work 70+ hours a week, week in week out to them they seem to believe the days when I drank and carried on, I cant remember those days anymore but they can.
Want to make Joe feel bad bring up his past life the one that has been gone for years.
I get ticked off when I think about how I had 2 children when I was 6 years old not that I had to work and feed them but I had to keep us together fight their fights, and see that they were not hurt for many years the visits by my dad did not enable him to know what was going on and I didn’t either duh a 6-12 year old doesn’t understand some of the things that go on in life but I learned many of life’s lessons at an early age.
I get a drunk thank you and I love you every once in a while, and that does`nt do the job.
That is the past and reality is today and I hurt, but I know that you hurt worse so I know that I am not alone.
Advice; don’t let people know where the rant button is located.
Joey
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Rant Button
by RandyI was hurting that day, BAD, and on my way to an attorneys office to go over testimonial advice for court in a case I was testifying in and I had some pressure on me and he just said the wrong thing at the wrong time. It is a shame because he named his first born son after me but after that day there was no mending fences for either of us. James Randall is probably at least 10 years old by now. I let pain ruin a good friendship so now I just Uncle Tom it and shuffle on off muttering under my breath when it happens. Damned shame. I am a different person now since my pain is being managed.
Dammed shame,
Randy
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Narrow minded people.
byThat pt was wrong first it was none of his business and second his father-in-law owns a big crane company and he gave them their big house and new vehicles as this hospital doesn’t pay enough to live like he lives, this guy preaches for churches when they need a fill in so what does that make him, a lucky hypocrite as Jeff could have broke his neck and the dummy couldn’t stop it.
This is one of the pit’s that treated me before a doctor said I had RSD and I almost came to blows with him because I couldn’t tolerate ice anymore and I told him when I found out about RSD and ice and he got mad when I told him to watch for people that will not allow ice to be applied but he is to righteous to listen to a patient that doesn’t know God personally like he does.
I will bet you my shoes that he still doesn’t know what it could mean when a new patient will not allow ice to be applied.
He worked as a personal assistant for Bobby Knight for 7 years that explains a lot.
Joey
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some friend
by BonnieIt sounds like your friend was not intune with your experiences whatsoever, nor was he very sensitive or compassionate. It always hurts to lose a friend, but I don't think that you "allowed your pain to ruin the friendship", but rather your friend could not step into your shoes and understand what life was like for you.
My rant button: the word hypochondriac and my name uttered in the same sentence. Especially when it is a friend that says it, even jokingly.
-Bonnie
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Rant Buttons
by RandyI really think that all of us have a rant button and with me it really takes some digging to get to mine but that day at that minute he hit mine.
What is really ironic is that his father would jab at me also and I always took it. Now, the last time I saw his sister and this mans daughter, she told me that their father had to have back surgery due to a blown disc and he was in a wheelchair for almost 3 months and all he could do was lay in bed and scream on the bad days. He never knew pain could be so bad she said and he is about 70 years old now. If I ever see him again it sure would be tempting to say "now you've had a taste of my life" but I would never do that. I don't hit people below the belt when they are down or any other time for that matter.
I always said that God has a sense of humor and sometimes there are lessons to be learned in his laughter. I just hate it sometimes when I have to be the one learning the lesson though, (as Randy lets out a God fearing and respectful snicker!)
Take care,
Randy
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Relatives...I Can Relate
byUnfortunately, what you said about family really hits home. My immediate family (mom, dad and husband) are absolute angels. They each show such unconditional love and compassion, it's awe-inspiring. The problem is with my extended family. It's as if there are two types of people - those who understand chronic pain, and those who don't. And it seems like there's nothing you can do to change those who don't understand. You can talk til you're blue in the face, but nothing sinks in.
It was painful to read your post. All that happened between you and your family must have hurt you really bad. I understand how relationships can eventually deteriorate like that, though. You've been dealing with a chronic illness much longer than I have. I've seen first hand how my relationships have suffered after one year of chronic illness. If I'm not "well" 10 years from now, I don't know what type of situation I'll be dealing with. I don't think it will be good though...not at all.
Bless your heart - I'm so sorry you're having such a difficult time since your surgery. Are you still having to go to your classes? How are you managing? That really worries me that your leg is swelling like that.
Take care, and I hope you get to feeling better soon.
Liz
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Sorry to have disappeared
by BonnieI am sorry that I have been asbsent this past week. I spend Tuesday through Thursday at my parents house and their computer crashes when trying to access the web. So, I didn't get a chance to read the responses to my post until late Thursday night. And I spent most of this weekend visiting an old friend. SO today has been the first day that I have had a long chunk of time to sit and read and post. I do apologize for just disappearing and really do much appreciate everyone's interest in helping and offering advice/words of comfort and wisdom.
I have also been feeling very anxious and somewhat depressed this past week. I have had much to think about. I now have my methadone in a syrup so that I can measure my dosage more accurately and titrate down slower. Although, even when going down slower it still takes a toll physically and emotionally. And my headaches have also been difficult to deal with, as I think they might be getting worse.
This past week has not been as bad physically as last week, but it still has been quite uncomfortable. Detoxing is going to be a long fight which I am going to have to be better prepared for. In response to the debate on addiction, I think that I confuse addicition with physically dependent. I do not psychologically crave the methadone, etc., but do feel physically dependent. This should have been told to me by my doc, it wasn't. Like Robert suggested, even if he told me how painful it would be to get off I still would have taken it. I just would like to have been properly informed and listened to. I no longer see this doctor.
I really do appreciate everyone's posts and advice/suggestions/opinions on my situation. I still am confused about whether or not I do have rebound headaches seperate from the Hemicranium Continua (or if I really do have that at all). I started to research rebound headaches on the web and it does say that narcotics can contribute to rebound headaches, in addition to anagelsics. But the only way to truly know whether or not I have rebound headaches is to detox off the methadone. Apparently my doctor said that another class of medications can better treat the Hemicrabium Continua without the danger of causing rebound headaches. She just prescribed Kaylon (I think thats what it's called) that I am supposed to start taking tonight.
I will keep you all posted.
Thanks again.
Hope everyone's pain levels are low today.
-Bonnie
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p.s. to Edward
by BonnieThanks so much in your interest in trying to help. I also wanted to welcome you to the co-op.
To answer some of your questions and tell you a little more about me: I have three doctors, a neurologist who specializes in perepheral neuropathy, a pain doc, and a now a neurologist who specializes in headaches. I have perepheral neuropathic pain in my legs and arms, (sometimes my lower back) and my head. My leg and arm pain used to be incredibly painful, but now is mild with occasional flares. Of main concern (for the past 3 and 1/2 years) is the pain my head/eyes, of which I am being treated with meds, methadone, now at 17 mg, elavil 50mg, and 3600 mg of Nuerontin. I have tried many many opiods and methadone was the best med, b/c it handled the pain the best and had the least amount of side-effects. I have also tried many non-opiods, but Neurontin is the only other med that has really seemed to help, although I do not care for the forgetfulness.
Before I started the methadone I had been on the Duragesic (fentanol) Patch, but it exaserbated the side-effects of the neurontin and made me so tired that I would fall asleep everywhere. I have since left this pain doc b/c he gave me misinformation about meds (such as telling me that methadone has no side effects, and topamax has no side effects, and bold faced lied when I asked if topamax caused memory loss and confusion). He als stopped treating me like I was a person. You can still see that I still feel hurt and upset about this. But, similar to what Robert said, even if I had known that getting off the Methadone would be this bad I still would have taken it. And I don't think that Methadone was a bad decision, nor do I believe that it is a bad drug. My problem is that I was told that there were no side effects and that it was not addictive. And although I agree that addiction has a psychological component, the way it was put to me sounded as if there was no physical dependence as well. Point being is that I would have done it anyway, but I would have liked to have made an informed decision. So much is not in our control as people with pain, we should be allowed to make knowing decisions in our medical care. I no longer see this doctor. Oh, and to answer another question, I am not psychologically addicted to any of my medications.
Anyway, I went to a new pain doc who listens to me and seems to care. He wanted me to see a headache specialist to see what other things that we could do to treat this. The headache specialist felt that my headache pain is not caused by my Sensory Neuritis (my perepheral neuropathy syndrome) but is rather a migraine syndrome called Hemicranium Continua (long term migraine). She also felt that opiods can cause rebound headaches (I guess as a side effect) which she believes I also have in addition to the Hemicranium COntinua. Therefore she believes the methadone is giving me a headache on top of the Migraine Syndrome. So, she feels that I need to get off the Methadone and then the rebound headaches will go away, and in addition she is giving me more specific meds for the Hemicranium Continua (although as of yet I haven't noticed a difference with the new meds).
SO, my main anxiety is about the discomfort of going off the methadone, which has been horrible so far. I think that I should go off the methadone to see if this doc is right, she seemed very confident and knowledgeable, but this is just a physically and emotionally tough time right now.
I greatly appreciate your interest and concern, as well as everybody else's. It really does mean a lot that everyone has taken the time to think about this is give me feedback. Once again, welcome to the co-op.
-Bonnie
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Dear Bonnie
by EdwardAll opioids are strong medicine. Although they are among the safest drugs known to humankind, in that they pose zero danger to vital organs (even at very high doses), they certainly cause physical dependence and bring with them difficult - sometimes intolerable - side effects.
You have verified what I suspected: that psychological dependence (i.e., addiction) has nothing to do with your current difficulties. Only a very small (the exact percentage of which is debatable) number of chronic painers are at risk for addiction.
As I indicated before, I think it is VERY important for chronic painers and especially their physicians and other health care practitioners to choose their words carefully when addressing these issues.
I noticed you used the word "detox" in describing your withdrawal from Methadone. That's another loaded word, in my opinion, as Methadone is in no way toxic to your body. While that word may be appropriate in describing the process addicts go through in withdrawing from opioids (because opioids ARE toxic to addicts), I don't think it applies to you or nearly all other CPers who choose to withdraw from opioids, or no longer need to take them.
Words are powerful. The wrong ones have led to millions of chronic painers continuing to suffer needlesslly, because the wrong words provoke unwarranted fears among the only people legally allowed to prescribe these medicines to people who need them.
You definitely have developed physical dependence to Methadone. Unfortunately, this particular opioid is quite difficult to withdraw from. From what I have read the Clonodine and a benzo (as Dr. Whitworth suggested) can help a lot.
But I wonder if the symptoms you're finding most difficult right now are really signs of withdrawal. Because of the unusually long half-life of Methadone, only one dosing per day is adequate to prevent withdrawal, even though such a dosing schedule is very INadequate for pain control.
I do understand why you are seeking to withdraw from the Methadone. I just hope that is the right decision for you. I've communicated with many head pain patients over the years and I've not heard others complain that Methadone causes the rebound problem you describe. Stadol, yes. But not Methadone. (But my experience is limited in this regard, so I surely could be wrong about this.)
One of the reasons you've benefited from Methadone in the past is its unique effect (among opioids) on neuropathic pain. I worry about what will happen to that pain when you stop taking the Methadone.
And. . . if the new meds your new doc wants you to take for the headaches aren't helping, when is that supposed to happen?
I know how difficult it can be to decide which physician to trust when you get conflicting advice. What do your neurologist and the new pain doc think about this plan to withdraw from the Methadone? You mentioned that your peripheral neuropathy is much better controlled now and your head pain is your most serious pain problem. But what if the PN pain returns with the elimination of Methadone?
Bonnie, you were not on a very high dose of Methadone to begin with. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but if you've reduced your dose from 20 mg/day to 17 mg/day, that should not cause withdrawal symptoms. I wonder if something else isn't going on.
Did you ever try taking Methadone in equivalent doses QID? If you maintain a constant blood level of Methadone (which is generally required in opioid therapy for chronic pain), then why would you even be having rebound headaches? As I understand it, the rebound occurs when you DON'T keep a constant blood level of the medicine. That is, the med disappears and here comes the rebound. But that shouldn't happen with long-acting opioids taken around the clock.
Quite possibly I'm missing something here, but if I may, I'd like to suggest one other thing to consider. I know you are appropriately angry at the first pain doc who misled you about the Methadone. Do you think it is possible that you've reacted to that circumstance by somehow viewing Methadone as the problem when it really isn't? It may be that you need more Methadone (or at least a better dosing schedule), rather than less.
I hope you'll discuss all these possibilities with your other doctors. Maybe it would be wise to seek yet another opinion from a pain management specialist or even a different head pain specialist.
None of these thoughts is meant to discourage you, only to provide additional ideas for you to consider.
Best wishes to you, Bonnie.
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Lets try that again , from the top. .
bycomes along, it will be a life sentence on (an opioid) methadone as many of our maladies are degenerative conditions and cannot be halted or even put in stasis.
I know Bonnie is quite a bit younger than I and I wonder about the natural resistance of youth to having to be tied to anything that may have a negative connotation for 50+ years .. For the 50 year old,
its a 25-35 year pain in the a**. Having to jump through all the hoops to make all the powers that be
keep you sane from month to month.
I know I have no option .. Nor do I wish to experiment
as those days are past. But to think I might be going into a PhD-ship where I might teach, publish or perish, or have some social climber find my bottle of methadone and turn me over to the board of regents.
Socially, is this something that can't stand the light of scrutiny in Bonnie's life's plans? My PhD will be in the field of health and I will always be willing to defend my position.. but would it be easier if I didn't have to ? Of course.
What if she didn't have that baggage to carry ,
indeed it may be wishful thinking but the wish is there and until (like most of us) she is 100%
sure that the alternative to opioids is infeasible,
Bonnie will show a strong ability to think for herself
concerning this burden.
How many of us have asked ourselves if this pill we have become somewhat a slave to (at least in the routine of procuring it) is necessary , or is there any way of dropping it like a bad habit ?
For so many of us , we speak, the same language and
have had very similar experiences thus it isn't hard to empathize with others like ourselves.
But there may have been a time when we ask ourselves
"is this trip really necessary" ?
I wish Bonnie the very best to accomplish what it is that will make her the happiest. Right now she is on a venture to find that out. I hope she knows she has all our support and whatever makes those headaches go away is what is the right way to proceed.
Your young, your tuff, your resilient, you will do just fine. If nothing else you certainly received an
education from the school of hard knocks where learning doesn't come easy. We all support you in your pursuit of your dreams, may they all be steps to a better end.
Robert
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Reply
by EdwardI am fortunate to work in academia, as this tends to be a setting where differences are accepted, if not welcomed. It is also an occupation that provides a lot of time flexibility, which has been helpful to me as a CPer.
Bonnie, it was not my intention to suggest you are wrong to pursue your current plans. I meant only to offer some additional ideas for you to consider. I assume you are bright and determined and you will do whatever it is you decide is best for you.
If I overstepped, then I apologize. I only meant to help. Perhaps I need to back away.
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Not a chance !
byOh on the contrary Ed. This forum is for an exchange of idea's and I believe Bonnie asked what we thought.
It isn't always possible for me to get across exactly
what I am saying without sounding like I'm being critical of an opinion. Actually nothing could be farther from the truth.. politics aside,
I hope you see that when I take a concept and write/think about it , it is like a 3-D object in my hands.. I like to roll it around look at all sides of it, comment, and if I sound like I'm coming down on someone/something its not my intention. It would be helpful if our posts were in color code.
i.e. when we were kidding around the letters would be blue, and if we were angry red, puzzled, yellow , analytical, gold you know what I mean.
I know I offend a awful lot of folks , but it is not intentional, I just say what I think, and the emotions are read into my posts .. You would know
a real confrontation because it would be ugly. But you have not written anything that was meant to kick shins as I see it . You are like many of us who just think out-loud .... Don't sweat the small stuff we have some very pressing issues (patients rights ) and no use second guessing now ...
Let her rip . . .
You do the same thing many of us do , you become analytical
and you write down your experience and observations, I have not seen them to be set down in anger, disapproval, to be argumentative, or to in any-way hurt or disrupt the person/concept your talking about .
This is the natural course of these boards ..
I often offend a person on this board I think the world of, I don't set out to do so , I'm not even writing about any specific event that is aimed at that person. But there is nothing I can do if someone chooses to take opinions personally. They are NOT aimed at specific people...ever.
Bonnie has been around us long enough to know we all care about each other. If someone jumped another persons bones without provocation the boards innate sense of fairness would light up like a beacon.
Some of us have been communicating with each other
for almost 2 years , and we take liberties that to
someone who didn't know that we care deeply for each other, they might think we are very rude.
Your comments were enlightening, your experience welcome, and your not going to step on toes, as you don't strike a toe stomping cord in your posts ..
Let her rip.... perhaps there are things to say here, where as you might not find a forum for elsewhere. This is the place.
Its like people who get on HBO and all of a sudden they are swearing because they couldn't elsewhere.
Don't back off , damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead !!
Robert
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thanks
by BonnieEdward, please do not apologize in any way, all your questions and comments have been very helpful and none has caused offense. To answer your question, although I am on a small amount of methadone (17 mg), comparatively speaking, I am only 5 feet 2 inches, 120 pounds, and am VERY sensitive to meds. Also, the pain in my arms and legs subsided greatly by the time my headache started, so the meds are not really for that. The pain in my legs started when I was 16 and was really bad for about 2 years, and as that started to get better the pain in my arms started, and also was really bad for about 2 years, and then subsided some. The pain in my arms and legs is now mild (but always present).
I am also going to ask my doctor more about the notion that if rebound headaches are supposed to occur due to analgesics wearing off, then how does this apply to methadone with its long half life.
Thanks again for all the support and encouragement.
-Bonnie
p.s. The clondine does help the withdrawal symptoms, but it also Knocks me out, which is not convenient when I have things I want to get done.
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doing so good!
byRespond to this message
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YIPPI-SKIPPY DEB!!!! YAHOO-YIPIKIA DEB!!!! GROVY!!!!
byrecently to MY pain brought under control. My life
is beginning to start anew. Thanks to YOU Deb and
others here on the board that kept me going when I was
ready to give up. AND...AND...ROBERT for getting me
the info on this wonderful Pain Clinic in Lewiston!!!!
Without you guys, this board, and being able to hook
up with a pain clinic(had never heard of em) I truley
wonder if I would be here this morning. Did you know that Randy actually CALLED me one morning?!?!? Yep. I was one of the lowest points in my life and I had lost my internet, he called me just to give me a "hugh"
and let me know I was missed and cared about. THAT'S
the kinda people we have here! So you go get that SUN TAN and we will all be with you in spirit enjoying it!
Hope your day is just right. always- cap
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!! :})
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I am really glad for you Deb.
byGoing out myself but I won`t be sunning, I will take a tour of the concrete plant,,,really exciting I know but it will be interesting.
Joey
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FOR JOEY...Man of many talents!
by RandyYou never cease to amaze me. Anything from exotic dancers to tours of a concrete plant. I bow before your superiority! You get to do a lot of neat stuff. I have always wanted to go a monument factory. I want to know how they cut and polish and engrave headstones for the cemetary. Get on one of those tours and I will be totally impressed with your prowess!
It is sometimes the things that you think of least that turn out to be the most informative and interesting. Enjoy yourself Master Joey, but just be prepared to tell us about it! Since you let us know about it, there WILL be a Q&A session later one night!!!
Have fun,
Randy
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concrete, headstones and such.....
byIn a small town the biggest thing except for the home show and the car show there isn’t much to do except go to the remote broadcast areas that the DJ`s work from either a grand opening or the 30th year of being in business for Jones & Son Concrete.
There are always prizes and I have won so many concert tickets and car washes but I enjoy the free food.
I didn’t realize the price of field stone .15 a pound for some of he basic stone and much more for the rocks that you might find in W Texas and E Arizona and I am sure Cappy has access to millions of dollars in pretty rocks out there
The landscaping rock was a big surprise to me price wise, some that they had was almost 200.00 a ton and they also had some sponge rock that was about 2 feet X 2 feet and it was so light.
Eaton Monument is around he corner it is small but the names are probably cut the same way and saw them put the stencil on a stone when I was in there with Granny when she bought hers.
I would like to see them take a piece of granite and form it into the final shape with the top rough and the curves in it and I would like to see how the etch the hearts and designs in the mirror finish and how do they get the mirror finish on the front and rear, I can only guess that it is with a diamond polisher rough to fine no doubt with water for cooling.
I believe a router is used for the cutting of dates as they put the final dates usually in the cemetery, wouldn’t it be bad to put the wrong date on them.
I believe a stone about 3 feet wide and almost the same height run about 1200.00 and I bet that there is a big markup on them.
I enjoy going to a graveyard and looking at the dates and try to imagine what they were like.
I spent several hours at a little church cemetery outside of Indy I believe Brookline the oldest was about 1820 or so, the weather works on them especially when they are limestone and they are hard to read but I kept noticing that there were a lot of young people that died on 1917-18 and I didn’t know why until the history channel did a segment on the flu outbreak during WW I and it hit the young healthy people not the elderly and in the cities Philly was featured with pictures of coffins stacked up in the street and they could not get around to pick them up for days.
People put a certain color of cloth on the door if someone was sick and a boy or girl and another if they died so the neighbors would know and the burial detail could do what they had to do, I guess drop off a coffin and pick them up later o the curb.
The equivalent of the surgeon general did some math and at the worst part of it he secretly gave man a few years before humans perished but strangely enough the epidemic subsided at about the same time that the war ended.
I just thought about the gas and such that was used in that war did it have a negative effect on the human immune system, or could it have upset the natural balance of viruses and bacteria in the air to cause one strain to grow unchecked.
I don’t know if that affected the southern hemisphere like it id the north but that idea is pretty preposterous given the magnitude of the earth and the small land area where these agents were utilized.
Enough of this rambling, I am ready do a keyboard dive so I know this must be coherent.
Oh the dancers, Randy I don`t go over there it has been almost a decade since a couple of us went over there, I find it boring personally.
Night plunkzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Joey
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Airborne Pathogens
by RandyAs far as the dancing goes...you are never to old to look but as Windy says, "you can do all the window shopping you want, just do your buying at home"!!! It has been about 10 years for me also but it was hilarious watching those girls make the "young studs" part with their money. I wanted to slap some of guys on top of their heads and tell them how it works but who am I to bust their bubble plus I didn't want the girls on me because the suckers are their meal ticket!
I call them "the houchie couchie dancers" but I hate to pay $3.00 for a Sprite or Coke-a-cola!
Good night Joey,
Randy
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DON'T FALL ASLEEP OUT THERE !!!
by RandyAnd DEB. Watch out when sunning on medication, that you don't fall asleep and burn to a crispy critter!
It is easy to get off of that jump-o-leen thing. Just jump and go flying off of it. DO NOT BREAK YOUR OTHER ARM! How would you wip...uhhh, go to the bat...uhhh, never mind!
On a serious note now..It is double plus good that you are doing so well. One time, right before I had knee surgery, they gave me a shot of something that was supposed to relax me and it almost stopped all of the pain in my back. For an hour I had a concious time of relief. I asked the Orthopod what was in that medicine that they gave me as it stopped my back pain and he laughed and said some long word and said it was a very powerful narcotic and that it doesn't come in a pill form, just IV, so I was outta luck there! Oh well, at least at times there is complete remission for us, but it usually doesn't last forever. Dammit! I was happy with the hour that I got relief though.
Keep doing better but don't go back to work until the doctor says or W/C might not pay for the surgery so that means don't fall for the smooth talk (begging) of your devil boss! hehehehehe(ALWS).
Take care DEB,
Randy
PS...If this note doesn't make much sense, It's not you, as usual it is me, but I just woke up so I ain't all here yet! My brain usually gets up a couple of years after I do.
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I won't, and didn't fall usleep.
byRespond to this message
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Spelling
by RandyYour spelling is great considering what you are going through! I am glad you fell asleep inside instead of outside where you can be overcooked before you know it!
Yep, it does sound like your boss needs to get off his ass and do the W/C paperwork or you might need to put your attorney on him. (He doesn't have to know that you really don't have one. hehehehe!ALWS) Keep getting rest and getting better.
Take Care,
Randy
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That sounds like good news
byGlad that you got some rest and are feeling better.
I believe that most W/C pays about 66% of your gross and it is tax free, and when you get injured on the job the paperwork is about the only thing that they have to be quick about and it is serious if they don’t.
Payment is another animal they can do just about anything that they want to do in most states but you should be ok they worked with you.
Watch a good movie for me as I am going to eat and hit the sack and dream about bricks, landscaping rocks and different concrete articles.
Take care,
Joey
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Best wishes floating through cyber space
byBlessings, Gracie
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Everybody ready for the weekend???? and hiya Doc!
bynot too long ago I DREADED the weekends. Spent most of em in bed while my kids played outside the window.
These past few weeks have been unbelievable! Like last weekend, I'm looking forward to pestering the kids and
screwing up everything in my wife's garden...at least I'll be WITH em! :}) I know I'll over do it and have to pay for it. I am WILLING to pay the price. The first part of the week will be difficult...BUT DO-ABLE!!! I AM kinda pushing it right now...a little.
BUT, I think I'm seeing some gains in other areas, over the past two years my muscles have...well...gone away! Anywho-I'm rambling, but I felt positive tonight and wanted to share it! :})
You all take care, have a peaceful night, and I'll check up on ya in the morning!
always- cap EEEEK!?
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Cappy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
by JoeyI heard that song last night and it is pretty, as pretty as a blanket on the ground is.
Glad that you are enjoying yourself Cappy.
Joey
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Addiction and Chronic Pain...Bonnie's post
by MLWhitworth, MDI stand by my statements castigating the physician who made the misleading and dangerous statement that methadone is not addictive.
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Can anyone explain terms, thanks.
by JoeyI said on the first post that a patient should be informed about addiction.
I guess my doctor knew that I could figure that out myself but I did not know what MSContin was when he wrote the prescription until I got it filled and nobody told me not to cut them in half or about constipation.
I wrote a letter the first night that I took one in case I did not wakeup, scared me but deep down I knew I was ok that my doctor would not kill me.
Just my thoughts and even more important with someone that is elderly and no computer, I had the computer but I did not know how to use a search engine, I bought a book with web addresses, something for those tech challenged people to spend money on.
I am going to get a free hot dog and Coke at Jones and Sons Concrete the radio station is really busy this week doing remotes, that means a lot of free things, Brenda Lee tickets for tonight but I dont feel like the drive to Little Nashville, I would go to Ronnie Milsap next weekend if I could get tickets though.
HOT DOGS>>>>>>>>>>>
Joey
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What ASAMS is.
by RandyI don't know what DSM IV means or even when someone says tx or dx (I don't know what that means) but I got the skinny for you on ASAMS!
ASAMS = Arachnoiditis Sufferers Action and Monitoring Society (of New Zealand)! That is what that means.
I think it was formed from a group of people from another board called COFWA! That means "Circle of Friends With Arachnoiditis"
Another site is called CIAASA which means "Chemically Induced Adhesive Arachnoiditis Sufferers of Australia"
All of these can be accessed at the ASAMS site whos' address is www.aboutarachnoiditis.com
Have fun and the next time a doctor wants to do a facet joint injection or an eppidural or stick ANYTHING into or around your spinal cord, just think about what you saw at the ASAMS sight.
It is called "looking before you leap". Knowledge is power but it is also a double bladed sword. Just when you think you have it figured out, God has a tendency to let us know that we don't know squat! Go figger!
Gone Bye-bye,
Randy
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Correction: ASAMS
by AnonymousTx=treatment or prognosis
Correction :
ASAMS site whos' address is www.aboutarachnoiditis.com
--Randy
Randy I get their publication which is $20 a year and
that 'just' takes care of postage from N.Zealand..
their site is Correction: www.aboutarachnoiditis.ORG
not com.
I get about (4) 25 page publicationa a month and they are written by authorities in every field . They are pain researchers of all flavors .
Some of the pubs. I have read and re-read are
'Epidural Misadvententures ' H. Muir MD Nova Scotia
' The Tradedgy of Needless Pain ' re-print Scientific American
'Epidural Aesthesia and Arachnoiditis' Sarah a Jones PHD
'Chronic Headache the Migraine Process' NIH USA
If you have arachnoiditis or you just want to get a fine publication/publications from some very astitute and supportive people you can go to.........
www.wanganui.org/arachnoiditis
or write Lynne Emslie
asams.newzealand@xtra.co.nz
the $20 goes for a GOOD purpose.(It barly pays the mail ) And we both know Dr. Sarah Smith has patroned this society for a long time.
Anything she is associated with has to be very altruisticly orietnted.
Robert
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www.aboutarachnoiditis.org--is correct. MY BAD anonymous.
by AnonymousWe come here often to do genetic experiments on your species and implant the larvae of a wasp type creature from our world in some of your peoples spines and grow our form of organic weapons that we use on other races thoughout this galaxy. You call the larvae growing in your spines "Arachnoiditis" but upon termination of your life cycle we harvest the chrysallis from your spine and implant them in our tentacles thus giving us the ability to use them as a form of focused particle beam weapon when our nervous system interacts with them. If it is any consolation to you, they are the ones in pain now for the rest of their life cycle just as you were from them living in your spines.
Oh yes, the anal probes that we do are just a kind of joke that we like to pull on your people from time to time but we try to do it just to your policians mostly but they seem to enjoy it just a little too much. We may have to stop doing them because of that!
_______________________________________________________
What in the world is going on here??? I leave to go eat supper and come back and the above message was typed on my computer screen??? Weird stuff is going on here Joey! You and Robert take care and I will send a copy of this off to Art Bell when he gets back from vacation in 2 weeks and see what he makes of it!!!
Take care,
Randy and something or someone else?
Weird stuff here ya'll. I didn't type it.
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Abbreviations...ASAM
by MLWhitworth, MDDSM IV is the psychiatric description of all known such illnesses, deviation, aberrations in behavior.
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Addiction and addicts -misnomers
byAs a statistician I can ferret out statements and jargon that we can give meanings to that will NEVER find common ground nor agreement.
One such word is addiction.
Dr. M. I suggest that the terminal cancer patient who has been on high doses of morphine for the last 45 days of their lives could be considered "addicted".
Would I be presumptuous to suggest that of the 1400 + persons treated in the ( at X county, Wash. state)methadone maintenance program, we could agree that at least 25 % are addicted ? To heroin, or poly-substance abuse ?
Two distinctly different populations taking opioids for demonstratively different reasons, yet statistically the cancer population are more physically dependent
after 45 days of high dose morphine than the methadone maintenance patients at the time of admission to the maintenance program. Think not ?
Dr. Green U of Wash. PhD MD Psychopharmacology, &
pain management research found in 1982 that of
1400+ methadone maintenance patients only 20, 1.5 %
were technically "addicted to heroin" . * (curtailment would induce 4 stage withdrawal...China White)
The criteria was measurable degree's of withdrawal.
and of the n=100 randomly chosen persons out of
the N=1400 total population of methadone maintenance patients.
Green was given permission to extend immediate methadone maintenance to those who went through his study, while others would have to fail on detox protocols 3X to qualify for methadone maintenance.
Green found that of the 100 randomly chosen heroin
"addicted" population only 2 persons went into
4th stage withdrawals while 98% of the (n)
exhibited only 2nd stage withdrawals when they were
kept in an environment where heroin was not available
for 12 days (Greens selected period of time. )
Yet, is it safe to say, that persons receiving
150 mgs + of oral morphine sulphate in a 24 hour period for 45 days will show 4 distinct degrees of withdrawals ? Or how about 20 mgs of methadone daily for one year ?
Dr. would you rather have 45 full blown cancer stricken morphine "addicts" as patients, or just 'one' of the 98 (clinically "non-addicted" )felons who are habitual heroin users ? How about as your 'next door neighbor" ?
The word addict has totally distorted any meaningful
discussion we could have on the subject, and will continue to so in the future until the population of chronic pain patients are NOT compared to persons
who use/abuse opioids for recreational/financial reasons.
The numbers suggest we have two distinct populations here. One, who's only crime is pain, while the other may not even be technically 'addicted' or physically dependant, yet they most certainly have personality disorders which set them aside from the mean (u) population. There are 1.4 million of them in methadone maintenance programs in the U.S. today. Briefly, are they in need of psychological,
medical, legal/judicial treatments ? Or, does methadone make criminal eunuchs of them and thus protect society ? - - - R
// if you had read all of Bonnies post, her doc told her methadone is not addictive. Dr. M.
I suggest Bonnie's MD was making a statement on
what the MD perceived Bonnie's behavioral reaction to Methadone would be. Dr. methadone is not a drug the DEA has "high" abuse profile's on. Methadone patients are in a "less abuse potential" category in treatment,
law enforcement, medical diagnostics (psychiatric)
, pharmaceutical categorization, and in the public's perception.
It is of interest that if the same person were
taking morphine, oxycontin, demerol, fentynal, oxycodone,
or any of the stronger opioids save methadone theses perceptions
would not be the same.
Is this a function of the drug, the person, the disease process, or
opiophobia. Humanity has had its X-aholoics since the dawn of creation
be it alcohol, nicotine, gambling, sex, religion, sports, or social prestige
there have always been a statistic which reflected an 'abuse' factor in any given population. Why is an opioid any worse than alcohol ? What productive function does alcohol serve such that those that are "addicted" are looked upon as having a disease and are spared legal, social, medical, and even personal villianization when
alcohol does tens of thousands of $$ more damage than heroin in this society ?
Could it be that it is "worth the loss" to the powers that be ? ----R
I // simply corrected the misunderstanding (that you too carry my friend) that opiates are not very addictive in chronic pain patients. Dr. M
The words addiction and addict have negative connotations Dr. .
Persons suffering legitimately diagnosed chronic pain, if treated, immediately
are shrouded in negative description and negative associations.
This overt prejudice continues to perpetrate the stage for bias and condemnation based on erroneous associations.
If 9 out of 10 of the patients you treat with opioids
are receiving adequate pain control that is a very positive figure.
Why should the 10 % with personality disorder who have been in the gene pool since Genesis continue to garner all the attention.
By doing so, you associate an innocent population with a psychologically aberrant
( needing medical help? ) population, thus jaundicing the good done by opioids .
A 90% success rate in medicine is unheard of..
How many procedures (epidurals for ruptured disks) have 90% success.
When you suggest a surgical remedy for a physical problem, do you
emphasize the negative aspects ?
" Well Mr. Jones , last year 10 % of all donor heart recipients died"
or " For all those needing a replacement transplant, 10% will die I guess it looks pretty chancy Mrs. Smith....." Many Md's operate on single digit success potential, (ER rooms in S. Chicago on a Sat night)
Opioids have less negative effects than anti-depressants , anti-inflammitories,
hormone-replacement medications, cancer controlling drugs, on and on..
I for one am tired, tired, tired, of hearing the EVILS of opioids ..
Genetics are EVIL , people are evil, brain waves are EVIL, birth defects are EVIL,
politicians are EVIL,ignorance is EVIL,and MD's with opiophobia are EVIL ....
For all the money that went into my education and through the end product of my analysis, opioids are a God send !!! We just can't get it through our primitive, thick skulls.
I stand by my statements castigating the physician who made the misleading and dangerous statement that methadone is not addictive. --- Dr. M.
That is your perrogative, but my guess is that if you were to chat with that MD you might find that some MD's have chosen to accentuate the positive and roll with the negitive if the end is worth the process. .
Would you rather have heard that doc say-
"Well Bonnie, 5 % of all chronic pain patients taking
methadone become hoplessly addicted drug addicts ? "
Where does the profit to loss statment fit in here ?
Robert
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Interesting...
by MLWhitworth, MDAddiction is alive and well, regarding of how we try to justify it in the namesake of pain management as collateral damage. My point is that even taking into account all those who no longer fall into the categories of addiction (substance abuse) as defined by the ASAM for chronic pain patients (which by the way is a far cry from the DSM IV which would still have almost all pain patients listed as substance abusers), we still deal with addiction to narcotic medications on a daily basis in the chronic pain population. I am not making any argument that we should cease or curtail prescribing narcotics for chronic pain. In fact, I believe overall we are still undertreating chronic pain in the general population. But to turn our backs on addiction because of the above belief is unethical and a violation of our Hippocratic oath. Our duty is to treat pain and suffering. Our duty is to avoid injury due to our treatments. There is a balance that must be met in order to accomplish both goals. By not monitoring narcotic use and not taking action against those who are abusing, selling, diverting such drugs is at best a derilection of duty and at worst a violation of federal law. We owe our patients the truth about the treatments we prescribe instead of prevarications such as methadone is not addictive. But we can mollify the impact by the use of statistics.
Most current methadone treatment programs have a recividism rate of 30-60%. The patients in these programs being treated for addiction come up positive for illicit substances in their urine, most often heroin, even though they are receiving treatment with methadone. It is preposterous to conclude they are not still considered addicts in every sense of the word.
Narcotics are not evil. Chronic pain patients are not evil. But chronic pain patients who abuse narcotics can be. I have examples in my own practice of how chronic pain patients have robbed others for narcotics, followed them home from the pain center then robbed them of oxycontin, broken into their cars, posed as physicians, illegally written scripts, stolen scripts, and even died trying to sneak methadone into a jail in a rectal baggie. While it is easy to blaim physicians for undertreatment of these patients, many were receiving far greater compassionate dosing of narcotics than any chronic pain patient on this forum would ever receive. No, some people are simply not candidates for narcotics because when given narcotics, they make the transition from chronic pain patients to substance abusers. But fortunately most do not. It is our duty as physicians to treat those we can help and is equally our duty to stop treatment for those who abuse our help.
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Strange bedfellows
byPerhaps it was the mollification that has helped bring us out of the dark ages of just 20 years ago. --R
As for as the DSM IV I have met and worked for the people that create these categories, and will not deny the need for diagnostic tools for treatment modalities and standardization of such, but having met many of those who create the tests and categorization of behavior that falls outside the mean, this is still what I consider to be a baby science.
75 years ago Father Freud was forming the E=MC2
of the human mind, while talking of his naked mother, trains, and church steeples. Was Freud brutally inquisitorial and defaming of uncooperative "patients" ? Yes, by today's standards he certainly was. Was this more like rape of the mind than history taking? Yes, on occasion it was. Did it lead to catastrophic diagnostic errors? Yes. Does this go on today? Yes. Only by psychoanalysts? Not at all. I see it going on quite routinely today by non-analyst psychiatrists, psychologists, prosecuting attorneys, and the powers that be, who invoke DSM-IV to label patients/captives as this or that, despite the fact that the patients concerned do not fulfill the diagnostic criteria. When I have said/written as much, they invoke "clinical experience" and the need to have "viable tools." Hum, science marches on..(sic) and it marches most often when the psychiatrist/MD/ i.e. those in the controlling majority simply don't like the patient. Or don't like what the patient does ,stands for, professes, defends, or
when what they profess goes counter to the "morals" of those with the labels.-R
Most current methadone treatment programs have a recidivism rate of 30-60%.-Dr. MW
Having co-written the methadone grant for a large county in the Pacific North West
the rate of recidivism for 21-30-45-60 day heroin detox using decreasing doses of methadone was 97-98% .. As the programs were then administered they didn't work.
We then went to methadone maintenance. Considering we are dealing with people who have used heroin to "get high" for periods often in excess of 5 years,
40 % re-habituated, is a success story when viewed in context.
Why do we blame the positive UA'er, we are the scientists ,. we are the lawmakers, we set the standards, and we need to shoulder more of the responsibility for failure of "OUR " programs. If its broke "FIX IT." Who built it ? and then stood back and assumed it's the end all, fix all, apex of research. Hardly, possible with such a baby science, and is it any surprise that we need to make successive approximations when society is so dynamic? If it were static, we would never have to change , and failure would eventually become a part of any effort to change the status quo. But I digress, to a place I didn't want to go. Treating persons with addictive behaviors that effect the quality of life for others , is not my interest. Only a passing irritant because chronic pain patients are constantly being associated with the statistics of "addict" populations. I simply say that the two populations need to be considered separately, on their own merits or lack there of.
To assume that there are not corrupt politicians, police, priests,and even physicians
would be naive. But to say that all physicians should be considered suspect because some are - -- - -lets face it Dr. , physicians are not unlike any population ,you have 17 % alcoholics, something like 13-15 % drug abusers , wife beaters , child abusers , and so what does that say about the population in general ?
I suspect there is a equal rate of recidivism in MD's who attempt to detox.
What positive aspects come from the knowledge that to error is human throughout all populations.
The USA has the largest incarcerated population in the world, so does that mean we should expect perfection from a flawed resource ?
People that chose to live a life of a junkie are deplorable, or do we make it so ?
I don't have that answer. But I know that if we had given in , in 1974 the rate of recidivism would be 97-98% today. Some of the most sleazy people imaginable
are now working , have families, are productive, and will die addicts.
God , only knows what horrible things these people did at one time to get their drugs. What ever keeps them from doing that today is a great help to society.
Can we do better ?
Can we separate pain patients from past , present , & future junkies ?
Perhaps a voluntary UA on the first visit could ferret out some of the B.S..
I would feel insulted, unfairly put upon, and legally challenged if asked to produce a UA but if it would help establish the distinction between those that get Md's in trouble when they treat such people, I would look at it as the least I could do for my trusting MD.. for whom I would gladly do anything to make his job easier...
Interesting that such chronic crisis is not present in the physicians community here in Washington since we have laws that protect out MD''s ... the last DEA interdiction was in 1996. Doctors here do not have to go to extremes to buffer their practices. But there are many chronic pain abusers that end up in a detox ward, or using illegal substances to abate their pain. Yet we have done very little to act upon the research that suggests that addictive behavior is most likely genetically predispositioned---R
No, some people are simply not candidates for narcotics because when given narcotics, they make the transition from chronic pain patients to substance abusers.
--DR.M.W
Where there is a will there is a way. If they need their hand held so be it. Create the programs such that 'pain' doc's do not have to deal with addicts , I do not believe that is in your job description. But , as this problem effects all of us that will read these posts and everyone they know , something needs to be done.
Pain creates strange bedfellows ....for both sides of the issue. I believe that for some addicts nothing short of death will stop their efforts to injest opioid substances. We build taverns don't we ? - - R
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Fascinating!
by MLWhitworth, MDBut narcotics are not really the issue are they? The unethical or unlawful use of the narcotics are the culprit. Most pain docs would have no problem treating pain with large doses of narcotics if there weren't significant side effects to these drugs, and substance abuse is one of them. Chronic pain patients are not immune from substance abuse. Nor are they exempt from the responsibilities that come with taking these drugs. The pain patient who looses his script, "drops" his pills into the toilet accidentally, drives while under the influence of these drugs, etc. is irresponsible. Are these substance abusers? Possibly...they have features of substance abuse. Are they addicts? Possibly...using the guise of lost or stolen medicines is a frequently used ploy by addicts.
We handle these issues as follows:
1. Patients are completely responsible for their medications which are to be kept in a safe place. Scripts are no different than a paycheck in they way they are to be treated.
2. No refills at nights or on weekends. Refills are on the scheduled appointments only. Lost medications are not refilled. Stolen meds will be refilled once only and then only with a police report.
3. If pain medications are not sufficient, we will address this on the next visit. Chronic pain which has been present for many years is never an emergency and will not be treated as one. If a person is suicidal because of pain, more pain medications over the telephone are not the answer. The patient needs admission to the hospital, regional anesthesia to control the pain, and psychiatric council.
4. We will work with patients on narcotic dosing and have no absolute maximum amount of narcotics to be prescribed. But if a patient is found to be receiving narcotics from any other source without our knowledge, legal or illegal, they will be dropped immediately from the practice. If a patient runs out of medicines early because of abuse, overdoses and ends up in the emergency department, or has more than one lost or stolen script, they are no longer candidates for narcotic therapy and are immediately dropped from the practice.
5. We reserve the right to require performance of urine or blood tests if we suspect abuse. A person refusing such is dropped immediately from the practice.
6. Arrest by the police for selling drugs (any drugs), DUI, intoxication, etc. will result in immediate dismissal from the practice.
These rules are the best way we have found to prevent drug abuse. Addicts or those without enough self control to use these drugs usually are eliminated from the program in one month or less.
Patients are given these rules in writing up front, watch a videotape explaining them, and sign a narcotic agreement stating they understand these rules. There is therefore no question about what the exact requirements are for narcotic maintenance.
95% of our patients are logical, compliant, and are indeed seeking the best solutions for chronic pain in a multimodality process. Those who are abusers, addicts, or lack self control must drive 50-75 miles to the next available pain center. It is their choice. We treat more patients in this area with more advanced treatment methods than available anywhere in the USA. But we have strict rules that permit us to continue working for the good of patients.
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Thank you for all that you do. . .
byDr. you and your colleagues could do every chronic pain patient in the "system" a favor if you ardently
kept the 'addict--abuser--bad statistic out of the chronic pain community.
I have taken a lot of flack for my pre-screen of referrals ,to date, I have only had my backsides chewed on one occasion. I had the facts , and should have opted not to refer, and the lack of decisiveness came back on me.
So for the over 2500 people who have had to take my pre-screen in-order to get a referral, the dividends are impressive as the % of the population of seekers/abusers is reduced,and unlike some of the better known persons/Web sites doing referrals, (I will not name any names-->>> ""ASAP, & NASAP-L"" <<<<----- have virtually driven MD's out of pain medicine by over-referring and no quality control.)
Oh, I'm sure Iv been conned, and I have written to you and Dr. Bill when I was unsure and anguishing over the validity of a given applicant.
About 18 months ago I received nasty letters from the
drone's that work for Skip Baker at ASAP asking me who I thought I was demanding people tell me about their medical history when I should realize, help overshadowed any need to be nosey in an area that I was told was not my business.
I see a benefit to both communities if
the "bad apple" is kept from ever being associated with
the other 95%..
The degree of scrutiny you are under even from your own 'people' (your medical boards seem your worst enemy,is it not ? ) and the tendency for the layperson in some position of decision making, to come to an erroneous judgment, without any real knowledge, other than two words - "pain medication, " would be best neutralized.
In today's society, its the meth makers and users
that seem to be cornering the market on idiocy in astounding numbers while the collage age crowd is busy
making dime-store chemists wealthy by the weekly purchase of their the product Ecstasy.
I suppose if we tried we could tie these persons into the undesirable section of the chronic pain community by correlation of the consumption of an illegal drug.
My wish is to achieve the opposite.
What will it take to convince Md's , the judicial system, the media and the public that there are many like myself who take enough methadone to stun a 13 hand high horse, but if it were not for my chemical cane, I'd be sucking up more of their tax dollars.
the practice of "hitting em where it hurts" can work if used exclusively.
It is a benefit to all to separate the non-abuser
from the undesirable picture painted of anyone taking
opioids. I wonder what % of your "tuff love" policy is
a reaction to unjustified prejudice by those who you are responsible to ?
But we have strict rules that permit us to continue working for the good of patients.- - - -Dr. MW
It is an admirable pursuit to work for the good of the patient, it is equally important that the good patient
is not judged pre-guilty or treated as such because of those who have gone before them. I could be wrong but I assume that the idea here is to get the best care to the most people. Unfortunately there are legitimate, chronic pain patients suffering unnecessarily, and until it is possible for them to get treatment without any negative classification, we both have work to do . . .
I hope you know I appreciate what you do and have done. It is evident in this business you have to
CYA, as you are sometimes a sitting duck, in a very thankless occupation (compare monetary compensation of say a plastic surgeon) but this situation needs remedy
and the more astringent we are the more risk we run of becoming a victim of our own 'rules'.
Thank you for what you do .. and thank you for being a good natured sounding board Dr. ,you and your work are APPRECIATED !!
Robert
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A thought here
byMany blessings, GRacie
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the bestest the fastest. . .
byI will agree that for a Md that is treating 200+
folks , it is very hard to establish "instant" rapport.
In fact it's impossible.
The next best thing would be to establish a trust factor. That seemingly could come through the types
of testing,observation, and attentiveness to the 'rules'of care a MD will need to establish so s/he is able to achieve a given measure of treatment.
So Im with you, whatever gets us the bestest treatment the fastest -Let it be -!! But wouldn't it be nice to standardize this process...it might cut out some of the "problem children"
Robert
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"Problem Children" rr
by RandyThe doctor told us that if my blood showed that the medicine (serum) level was either too high or too low according to their specifications, that I would be out of the program so I was sweating that blood test because I was afraid if the lab techs screwed it up there would be a world of hurt coming down on me again (meaning the pain would return)! Everything came out OK though. But what if a mistake was made, could I contest the blood test and have it done over? Is that an option opened to us? It isn't noted on the contract that I signed. Heck, it's almost 3am and I am sitting here wondering stuff.
Good night all,
Randy
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EST or DST
by JoeyI know that there are no easy way for this problem to even be minimized other than what Dr.W is doing and our opinions will not effect the way things are but to think about standardized this or that is taking the individual out of the equation, life is already by someone else’s book with no room for mitigating or aggravating circumstances that turn us a number.
Circumstances place a few innocent people in the place to be judged without intent considered, to take the doctors judgement out of this is to make an assumption of ones guilt without human interpitation.
Robert 5’10” 200lbs. RA, soft tissue injury no complications=15mg. Methadone qid.
Joey 5’7” 190lbs. Ra, soft tissue injury, complications=10mg. Methadone qid.
The government has done this with mandatory sentencing guidelines with some egregious miscarriages of justice.
Joey
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Smoke and mirrors
bybut sometimes cafeteria food is better than no food at all..
What I'm addressing is legitimization through FORCED standardization..
You dream when you thing doc's that see 250+ patients
a month even COULD individualize ANYTHING..
Your blood, urine,any lab, and most diagnostics are standardized.. when this is done it becomes second nature ..Pain control hasn't made it over the hurdle of normalization... and look how many folks get questionable pain control today ..
""Mr. Hooty today your going to stare into this
black box , listen to white noise, have Dr. Wong
stick needles in your eyes, ears ,nose and throat,
while you chant single syllable's and concentrate on relaxing""" Holy Sh**!!! OUCH !!! hey watch it with that needle you sadist. ""
can't I just take a pill ?
"Well sir , you when you came to Valhalla no pain no gain, pain control group, you have chosen to use our multi-faceted pain control and weight-loss program..
Please keep staring at the dot on the ceiling, oh and 250 deep breaths please Mr. Hooty.. I can see we're feeling better already... " ever been here ???
Individuality ? Ohh come on ,,, this pain control business has everyone and their dog involved ..
chiropractors solving soft tissue injuries (yea sure)
psychologists de-synthesizing you from "hot spot"
stimulation which can cause pain to escalate..
Yada yada yada BOTTOM line ... the first time the pain is gone you learn everything you need to know about pain control... i.e. its controlled !!!
Give me the pill & make the daemons go away. . .
I don't want to learn yoga while standing on my hands ..I want pain abatement NOW.
its simple . . . find the right drug, cut all the bells and whistles crap that cost the taxpayer a ton ,
and stop my leeetle neurons from firing across my synapse like fully automatic lightning..
stick GLUE between the neurons I don't care just stop the pain and all the dog and pony show crap. . .
Standardization could take the charlatans out of the business... it could take those who are prejudicial against opioids out of the business (like this clown who tells Bonnie she has headaches from taking pain meds )
Ya and I grew 4 new inches from taking viagra !!!!!!!
Get the folks that equate opioids with bella donna
out of the way... they cause more pain than an
orthopedic surgeon. Get the minstrel shows out of pain control , they just cause frustration and cost huge amounts of money giving worthless inept, unschooled, undereducated, and wrong thinking people to make $150k a year .... I dare say if you were given $150K a year to eat rotten fruit every day, you will
find all the good and all the NECESSARY reasons that
rotten fruit is totally indispensable...bureaucratic SMUCKS
Oh there is a place for these people but its in Indonesia training monkeys to pick good over rotten fruit.
Get on with the real thing..... Stop pain ..
all will be answered at that moment.. Till then its all
just smoke and mirrors
Robert
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If I were sneaky...
by RandyMucho Sincerelio,<<<pidgeon Spanish
Randy
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Question Dr. Whitworth
byDo you take Medicaid, Hoosier Health Wise I believe is what it is called?
I am actually W/C but I do not submit anything as they refuse it but that would be your choice Medicaid pays all of it, I do need any medical opinion for W/C and SS if I remain like this if it is negative or positive it doesn’t matter to me the truth from someone that knows about what ails me is all that I ask for, my other reports from IU were so full of errors that my lawyer would not even submit them.
I have now worked since September 96 and I would sure like to return, as spending money is a distant memory.
I can get the medical cars to drive me anywhere in Indiana.
I would sure like to see you for diagnostic reasons not for pain meds I have a doctor here that is very compassionate but I don’t know if he has ever heard of RSD if that is what is really wrong.
I don’t believe that the doctors that I have seen know very much except Dr. Ward at Indy and I refuse to go back there he let a student inject my spine and he had a huge question mark on his face and got instructions from the nurse and he hurt me, I am not afraid of being stuck but I believe that I may have been his first.
Dr. Ward left the young man alone and went to eat after he spoke with me for a few hours and I was prepped, during the LSB and the young Dr. was unsure as whether to proceed or not and Dr. Ward was surprised when he entered the room and it was over.
I had a moderate amount of pain for a few weeks and periods when I was stopped in mid-stride for least a few months after the 1 block and it did nothing but make my leg warmer for a few hours not noticeable to me.
I would be crazy to go on like this if you could fix a problem and comfort in knowing that this is the way that it is and I can’t be helped.
Thanks Joey
Joey
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Help getting to the doctor???
by RandyYou wrote, " I can get the medical cars to drive me anywhere in Indiana". What does that mean Joey? Does your state have some type of program that helps people to get to doctor appointments that can't drive themselves???
I have asked doctors, nurses, hospital social workers and no one knows of any such program in Louisiana. If I can't get a cab or someone to drive me to a doctors appt. I don't get to go and a cab ride would cost around $50 to $60 for me to hire one. Windy has to take a days vacation or at least half a day off to take me to a doctors appt. and I would like to find out if our state has a program like that but no one in the medical field knows of such a thing.
Help me if you can be telling me who to call in state government to find out about such a program or getting one started, if you can please.
Thanks Joey,
Randy
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Yeppers
byWhoa! Is this a serious question, hold the presses those guys are going to make sense well at least the question was serious.
By the way I was just wondering if every state had a program for Medicaid patients to drive them to the horsepital of doctors appointments PT and such, as we do here in Indiana, the cost for me is .50 roundtrip anywhere in the state.
Indiana is pretty good in this respect but it is only for Medicaid patients not Medicare but the state is working on that.
I had a few bucks in the bank just a couple of years ago and I saw that a guy had 3 nice little Buick’s and they had the name Medicab and I the name is DBA Medicab, and they were not busy for a year or so but now the senor center had about a dozen and a couple of vans and they are busy all of the time.
I could have bought 4 program cars and in short time I would be making some money but I wasn’t very smart.
It is nice since I only get 10mpg on the PU that I can go for hours for a few dimes.
We have another program here that was designed by a committee as anyone can go to any of 3 counties but the problem is that while they will take me into the hills the service will not take anyone to Vincennes and that is where the SS and unemployment office and the only decent hospital around I have called and they are trying to get it changed but I am afraid that it can’t happen it is the same committee that tried to design the horse and came up with a camel, they will spend 500,000.00 trying to figure out why nobody will go on this, well guys, save your money the end of that line are towns that have nothing for anyone to go to.
The Medicaid program must have been designed by HS students and the kept college graduates out as it works…………………………..
Joey
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Email me...
by MLWhitworth, MDRespond to this message
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Thanks I will Dr. Whitworth
byJoey
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Death CAN be Funny!!!
byHow'd he die? "He shoved some dope up his ass in a baggie and the baggie busted"...LOL, BWHAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!
Serves the assh*le right!
Have a nice day ya'll,
Randy
PS...We have a Darwin Award Winner with the baggie! I have seen a lot of people die, but never that way!!!
Having had medication stolen from me personally, I have no sympathy for a thief, especially one that steals my medicine. I am not as cruel as you might think, so don't judge me too harshly. RS
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Terminal Stupidity...
by MLWhitworth, MDRespond to this message
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My first aid---ME !
byI read of a fellow that had a incission between rolls of fat in his belly..and the fake nuns that taped
herion to their thighs (you gunna look up a nuns skirt? )
I can just picture what it would be like crossing some border and seeing some fellow writhing on the
ground --- I run over to see if I can help and
upon asking what the problem is , Im told he will die unless his "cavity" is evacuated with "my help"......
I can see myself doing a 180 on my heels and
in a loud, firm voice repeating the phrase
"You want what ? Say what ??? Ohhhh Im sorry ...cuz
You gunna die !!! Yep , You gunna die ...!!! right here
Your dead. Im outta here. See ya. I think I'm allergic to that. No, not this cowboy, not me....." .......... as I fade into the sunset. . .LOL
Robert
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Drink plenty of water and irrigate >~<-~////////..V..\\\\\\\\\~->~<
byLaredo Luke
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The suppositories were not FDA approved............
byThat is just a common way to smuggle drugs into jail for those that are on work release, weekend stays and those that are sentenced and have to turn themselves in to do their time.
A lot of people eat condoms, balloons and anything that hopefully will not rupture and retrieve it as it passes either after entering jail or after going through customs, women also place objects in the private areas and that is why upon entering state institutions the strip search with a mirror on the floor and bend over and spread them and cough, they check the oral cavities and hair, people go through a lot to get contraband into jail and into the country.
A person can consume a lot of pure drug in the powder form and if nothing bursts or if they don’t X-Ray a person can be rich with one trip.
When one breaks the large amount of pure narcotic will kill them very quickly.
I am watching VH-1 about Ricky Nelson’s plane a DC-3 going down in Arkansas in 85 and it is interesting.
I was a die hard rock fan until I had to take care of my Great Grandmother when she fell then went down hill and died within 6 months, nobody believed that a 99 year old could walk out of a nursing home with a total hip replacement I believed because I knew her and her biggest enemies were the medical community, they would never have tried but I was there every day to push everybody and she walked and went home but a stroke at home took her down.
I missed a lot of things in that time not saying that Nelson died then but I did not have time to watch the news.
I don’t know what happened to me but I went to classic country, quit drinking, partying and started going to church usually 3 times a week at a Holy Roller church that Rev. Jeff Jones started in his dads 3 car garage, I made a lot of changes then I can guess that it was because I believed so strongly what I was doing that when nothing was left to fight for I fought for me.
If anyone goes to a Pentecostal Church don’t be offended as that is a name that we did not mind being called as we knew that they did so out of ignorance of what went on in our church and if it bothered us our faith was not very strong and I don’t use the term with hatred we called ourselves that as so many people would say it under their breath.
Anything was accepted but we did not allow snakes that was the one boundary that Jeff set but nobody objected.
There is one other church that has been growing as fast as this one is, I quit going when the minister objected to pain control.
Next week my narrow escape from French Guyana !!!!!!!!!
Joey
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Got the news, a bit late though.
by RandyI didn't know that you were a pew jumper!!!That is what we used to call Pentecostals when I was in high school! What did we know. Did you really know Jim "Grape Kool-aid" Jones?????? If you did, that was really close Joey, really close.
On a similar note of not knowing what went on in the world for awhile, ie. "Bye, Bye Miss American Pie, drove my chevy to the levy and the levy was dry". That song was written about Rick Nelson. The name of his DC-3 was Miss American Pie!!! It was written before 1985 though. Rumor or truth or Urban Legend??
Anywho, I finished high school at a military school in Missouri in 1971 and I didn't watch TV for about 1 1/2 to 2 years and when the movie "Apollo 13" can out...I didn't know what the heck they were talking about! I asked Windy if this was a science fiction movie and she looked at me rather strangely (again) and said, "no, it really happened"! You could have knocked me over with a feather there Joey! It happened when I was totally concentrating on staying alive through Military School and never heard about it so I watched and told Windy not to tell me how it ended!!! Life, it is a strange thing some times.
Good night again Joey,
Randy
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I resemble that remark, pew jumper, wow how low, holy roller
by JoeyDon’t you like grape Kool-Aid; I don’t either and I was never down there but my brother would have been as he is a follower, I am a leader, now I know that you don’t believe that from my posts on here as I am pretty windy when I am joking around but I am a prankster when I feel decent and any silly thing that comes into my head I may just type it.
I hope that people can tell when I am pulling your leg or being serious.
When I am working I have fun but I have had the name of easy money for a good reason, I look at the job at hand and I may find an easier way of doing it, you assign the job to the new guy har….
Yes I did go to church many of them and I did like the Pentecostal but when they moved out of the 3 car garage it changed and I got tired of the people yelling and carrying on and of some of the hypocrites so I quit going to that one.
We have a fast growing church that has a young congregation and I want to go out there and see how I like it, they went from 400 to 800 people in 2 years, most of the regular churches you go in set down and it is the same thing every week and if you go to church and look at your watch I feel you should have stayed at home.
I answered this last night and when I went to post the forum was down for maintenance and I pasted this into a Word doc and now it is gone all of my docs are gone I have a document gremlin, I must have brought him home from the laundry you have to watch that as a sock gremlin will change his habits and steal documents as fast as a sock out of the dryer, Seriously I must find out where my documents are going to, I need to make 6 and run scan disk as I did while sleeping maybe that is deleting them.
I did install oh I did set this up for 2 identities I bet I was signed on as one of my other personalities, I change and let you know, wow that was it all of my documents are under Joey, I have never used this option before but I always try different things.
I formatted this into 4 hard drives last week and I don’t know where I went wrong as I formatted drive C-D-E-F and when I was done I only had drive C and I know that I created the primary dos and logical dos with C having 25% and D & E at 33% and F took the remainder 34% but something didn’t go right so I have a normal C drive strange that it disobeyed my commands. The only place I could have messed up was making the primary available for max drive size, a gremlin must have entered Y for that as I said N.
Everything installed without a single lockup and it don’t lock up so I am cool I thought that I would have different identities so I can practice making web pages linked to my other pages I have never done that but it sounds like fun, I have never made a web page period.
Me go now (ARWS)
Joey
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Puzzled?
by EdwardMaybe this is an urban legend. Or that guy really wasn't too smart. <smile>
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Reality 101
by JoeyWhy smuggle drugs, Methadone into a jail?
If you were a junkie and got busted an overcrowded jail cell is not the most inviting place to go through W/D so it would be awfully nice to have something long lasting to keep from hurting too much.
You can make good money getting arrested on a minor charge refuse to bail out until you get into the general population with narcotics, the people on the outside transact the money and the transaction in jail goes on after that post bail go home and buy a lot more drugs, easy money with captive customers.
Rigs are hard to come by in jail so heroin and speed would not do much without one.
Speed in jail would be welcome by crank addicts but the easiest way to make a long trip go by fast is by sleeping until you get to your destination, why would a person want to be awake for 3 days in jail it would seem like 30 days and I doubt that it would become a habit in the pokey and junkies would hate it.
Real life <grin>
Joey
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Neat Thread
by EdwardI think this turned into an interesting and hopefully enlightening thread. I very much appreciate the good points made by Dr. Whitworth.
This is such an important topic. No matter how many pain laws are passed by state legislatures or what the JCAHO does regarding hospital accreditation, the biggest challenge is to educate (or reeducate) physicians who not only are ignorant about appropriate use of opioids to treat chronic pain, but determined to remain that way.
We have a lot of work to do (all of us, I suppose), but we can be grateful for the changes that have taken place. Things are VERY different compared to the 1980s, when I first began taking opioids. At that time, it was nearly impossible to find a physician who was willing to prescribe these meds to a person who wasn't suffering from terminal pain.
This is a terrific board, Robert! Thanks so much.
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An invitation - to ya'll
byPain Management CO-OP heavy on the Co-op as the board is owned by the members. I just take out the garbage and sweep up at night.
It is so very true that we have a lot to do . I'm a firm believer in Patients Rights.
As things exist today, we pay our money and take what we can get. We are so used to a one way system, a system that wouldn't exist without us.
We are it , yet we have little or no input into how or what decisions are made concerning our treatment.
If we want to effect change on this system we need to outline some of the rules this game is played by.
I suggest that there are NO rules governing pain
except your damn lucky if you are receiving pain management. So what if I pay the bills and I don't want to learn self-hypnosis, or pay for it!! If I resist, I can take a hike..
I'm still in this mans army and the cap-e-tan makes the rules, I'm just here to follow. Well, now its high time we negotiate !!
Patients rights will be our topic this fall at
the meetings of Washington State Intractable Pain Association. WICPA is responsible for the laws
we now have protecting our pain Doc's and as I have stated there have been NO DEA interdictions since 1996 in Wash. State and the last was for a MD who was selling narcotics across state lines.
I hope this fall to set up a kit for those that wish to
start a ICPA in their state. I encourage all of you to
think about this , as there is so much to do in so many states. When I think about Dr. B and N. Carolina
I get angry. Ignorance is NOT a viable excuse.
So talk with your friends and let me know if any
of you would consider setting up an ICPA in your state.
If you can effect law you can change these archaic and
ancient restrictions against pain abatement .
Again , thank you for your enlightened input Edward
hope you feel free to jump in everywhere. Anything goes here BECAUSE - - - -
If we didn't laugh we would all go insane.
Robert
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Blind Men and the Elephant
by EdwardI think we all tend to respond to a controversial issue based on our own experience with that issue.
If I were a pain management specialist whose livelihood, reputation, ability to care for my patients (and sleep nights) were threatened by people who abused the meds I prescribed, I know I would be dramatically affected by those behaviors.
Those of us who are chronic painers and who have had to suffer for years or decades without the only class of medicines that can control our pain are likely to have a somewhat different viewpoint.
I know a few pain docs are themselves chronic pain sufferers. The others, I think, need a special degree of empathy, compassion and understanding. I lived most of my life without chronic pain. I simply did not understand it before I experienced it first hand. In my opinion, recognition of this part of the "elephant" is critical to appropriate pain treatment practices from physicians.
Fortunately, if we listen to each other and try to see the issues from the others' viewpoint, we can probably come to agreement on a lot of these issues.
The distinction I would make regarding "addictivity" is this: It is not the opioid that is the problem, it is the person who takes the opioid.
A physician who knows a patient who develops chronic pain, and knows that patient does not have a propensity for addictive behavior, can quite correctly tell that patient that addiction is NOT a risk with Methadone.
For individuals who have strong potential for substance abuse, MANY medicines (in addition to opioids) present a risk; not to mention non-medicines, like glue.
I have spoken to several enlightened physicians about this. The pain docs who assert that addiction risk is very low among chronic painers do not rely on one flawed study. They tell me they draw on their own clinical experience.
You note that you "have two file shelves full of patients who have exhibited addictive behavior . . . and were dropped from the pain center practice." Yet, you have no real way of knowing whether that addictive behavior preceded their chronic pain. Indeed, you can't really know whether these individuals even suffer from chronic pain.
I think you would agree that some of the people who come to you are drug seekers. That's why they come to you - not really for treatment of chronic pain. So, I don't doubt that: "Approximately 5% of patients in my practice have neither the self control nor the common sense to use opiates in a fashion they agree to on entering the practice."
But. . . you simply can't know how many of those 5% are really chronic painers to begin with. They may simply be addicts who see you as an easy source for meds.
One pain doc with whom I have discussed this told me the following: When he first opened his practice he was somewhat naive about the motivation of some of his patients. After a few bad experiences, he altered his practice (as apparently you have), the word got out, and the number of patients who came to him seeking drugs for the purpose of abuse declined markedly.
This doctor, however, NEVER treated me as a potential addict. He knew my history, believed that I suffered from chronic pain and treated me accordingly - with kindness, compassion and no withholding of the treatment I needed (opioids). It is not an exaggeration to say he saved my life.
Like most CPers, I have also had the experience of being accused, harassed and mistreated by physicians who thought it was acceptable practice to punish all of their patients for the misdeeds of a few. I do not believe that is acceptable in medicine, any more than it is acceptable in any other walk of life.
I am not unsympathetic to the challenges you face. In some ways, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you prescribe too liberally, then you may come under scrutiny from colleagues and possibly even your state medical board.
I can only hope that you will not let a few miscreants affect the way you treat the overwhelming majority of your patients who rely on you for the return of some quality to their lives.
Bonnie's doctor may warrant castigatation for not telling her that all opioid agonists can cause physical dependence. And physical dependence will cause withdrawal symptoms if the drug is rapidly discontinued. But I do not believe he was wrong to tell her that in taking Methadone she would not become psychologically dependent. That IS the definition of addiction, after all.
Here's the definition from an online medical dictionary:
"ADDICTION
<psychiatry> Pattern of compulsive drug use characterised by a continued craving for an opioid and the need to use the opioid for effects other than pain relief. (Psychological dependence)."
By contrast, here is the definitions for physical dependence:
"PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE
<pharmacology> Physiologic adaptation of the body to the presence of opioid is required to maintain the same level of analgesia."
In Bonnie's case, it appears that the Methadone caused only one of these problems.
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Wouldn't that be a pleasent change.....
byYou sir have struck the nail on the head.
In 1972 when I wanted to be a MD and was taking first year med classes, one of my profs (an MD) spoke of
untreated pain as a possible reason for addictive behaviors. Its easy to relate to if you have ever drank till your pain was abated.
I was working my way though school (for 3 summers)
by fishing for Salmon in Alaska. We went up early to build a dock, as tides can change 15 feet docs are built high above the water. Well I fell from the dock I was building, I bounced off of a 2 foot high stack of scaffold planking hitting it directly above my belt line.
Why I didn't break my back I will never know(perhaps I did) but I had a whole summer of hard work, including
heavy lifting, carrying, and I was hurt.
My trip to a MD was a doc who flew into the Eskimo village once a month and as he didn't have x-ray,
he pronounced me fit to work.
Well I came out of Alaska drinking 8-10 beers a night to kill the beast. Upon "getting back to the world"
I saw a D.O. who knew I had really tore my soft tissue and ligs. up. thus it began, the fight against dysfunctional pain. But at one time the U of Wash
was teaching pain courses.. pain was a subject that
was treated like a vital sign.
In 1972-74 all research, classes, references to
palliative care save terminal cases disappeared.
Thank you Dick Nixon and the DEA ...and I still feel
my blood pressure rise when MD's feel pain meds are
better handled by the DEA and criminal science (what science is there to incarceration ? ) than medical science. I feel the AMA needs to take back what was theirs and if there are people better educated to handle opioids then I was wrong in assuming MD's are the best equipped to alieve pain and suffering.
If they won't take it back perhaps we can legislate it
out of the hands of the law enforcement, and back into the hands of the healer. Yes , start them young, like when they are in med school and you have them for life..teach pain control, vs. controlling recreational drug use and you have a well rounded Doctor on your hands .
Wouldn't that be a pleasent change.....
Robert
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Another Sad Story
by EdwardSorry to hear your story, Robert. I do understand about the drinking. I've never had much interest in alcohol but there was a period when I forced myself to drink a lot of bourbon at night, on top of the Valium, the Tylenol #3s and whatever else I had handy, so I could eventually get a few hours of sleep.
The challenges faced by both doctors and patients involved with opioids can be vexing. Of course docs don't want to play policeman. But every job brings with it pluses and minuses. Surgeons get big bucks, but most have large malpractice premiums and many must live with tragic patient outcomes. I suppose pain docs must live with the problems that come with opioid prescribing. I'm sure it is also difficult treating patients who suffer so.
The normal curve of human behavior is such that some people will make things very difficult for others. I tend to view addiction as a disease, so I try not to blame addicts for this messed up state of affairs.
As you've noted elsewhere, this is not exactly a new problem. There was a time not too long ago when people in the United States had ready access to opium. I daresay we'd all be a lot better off if these substances were decriminalized, but that's yet another debate.
In the meantime, it seems reasonable for us chronic painers to expect physicians to treat us with respect and some kindness. I've actually had a lot of doctors do that. When I was in the stage of "making the rounds" - seeing one doc after another, having all the tests done, getting countless blocks, injections, prolotherapy, rhizotomy, etc. - and getting no pain relief, I ran into many doctors who believed me and expressed genuine sympathy for my suffering.
After doing my own research and reading early articles by Portenoy and Foley and others, I discovered that opioid therapy was indeed an appropriate option for me. I was shocked at the number of so-called pain experts who did not keep up with their reading and who predicted doom for me if I pursued that therapy.
I well remember thinking at the time that I really didn't care. I just couldn't take the constant pain any more and I was willing to trade it for even one year (one month?) of relief.
These docs were certain I would swiftly develop tolerance. Some ignorantly predicted organ damage as well. Now, 13+ years later, I've developed very little tolerance to the Methadone and my organs are just fine, thanks.
I am able to work full time and I've gotten most of my life back. I'm lucky. I lost only 4 years to unnecessary suffering and a devastated life.
Physicians should know better by now. Yet we can only guess at the number of millions of people in the US alone who spend life daily, curled up in a fetal position and moaning.
While these opioid-phobic doctors are worried about "addicting" their patients to narcotics, many more will die from acetaminophen poisoning or from the effects of NSAIDs.
And some will self-medicate with alcohol.
Things are changing. Opioid prescriptions are up dramatically. A physician has been successfully sued for undertreating a terminal pain patient. I understand pain management is one of the fastest growing medical specialties.
I can't wait for the day when each city can boast several good pain docs. When that day comes, when pain patients no longer "must drive 50-75 miles to the next available pain center," I think we'll see a change in the language of these pain agreements patients must sign.
I understand why such agreements are required, but I do not believe they need be so one-sided, so threatening and, in some cases, downright dehumanizing.
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We have come many miles ....
byIn 1997 I started as an apprentice to a wonderful woman in Idaho, she to was an intractable chronic,
and being from a state where people go to live in stasis, as opposed to any change. There are may places in my home state that have not changed in 50 years
except something fell down.
Karen was working for a group by finding MD's for
chronic pain patients. I had just moved back into the area and had found that after 8 MD's I was still getting prescriptions from my pain doc in Portland Oregon a place I had left 6 mo before.
I don't even remember how I found the doc I have now ,
but he is a gem. But the problem was obvious and there were people getting on planes and flying to see Gatel in Atlanta or Gorby in Houston, Klogh in Eugene Or.
of Horiwitz in Washington D.C.
People were actually flying 1000 miles + to find a pain doc.
Long story shortened.. through 4 years of constant
14 + hours a day and thousands of pain patients , we developed a list of over 450 MD's who when presented
with a person who was a Chronic intractable
they would be treated, their pain was addressed.
We had some failures , but perhaps out of the total of close to 5000 referrals in almost 5 years, we only
had 50 people we simply could not help.
Some were in the most awkward of places ... Northern Maine, Northern Michigan, Minnesota and Montana .
But now like the population distribution, the list
accommodates persons so they may have to drive 50 miles
but not often.. Now the average trip to the pain doc
is across town or an hour away ...
It beats the dickens out of 1000 miles .
I would like to think that through our work and the work of many others, the location and referral to pain docs has become a far easier task.
I used to do a minimum of 3 a day . some days as high as 15 . Now if I get 3 a week I'm pleasantly surprised.
Things have changed Ed. They have changed a lot.
We have a member that has to drive 90 mi. to see a doc
But he lives in a very rural part of the US when put in context. He is getting care, and we work together
when the need arises.
I think in the next 5 years we will see laws enacted
that protect the pain docs if they will just relax. <g>
I will be moving in another 5 mo. back to Western Oregon ( Corvallis ) or back to the Tillamook area.
I know that there are docs there, and the work of dragging GP's , internists, FP's , rheumatologists ,
anesthesiologists, and D.O's into treating their fair share of pain patients will go on.
There is indeed much to do, but we can't deny that we have come light-years in the last decade.
Also people aren't paying $500 a visit and $1500
for an intro..
Karen got out of the referral biz about 2 years ago
and it is fastly becomming a needless job.
Now is the time to tackle the state law makers.
That sounds like a worthy venture for the next 5 years ...
Robert
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I believe the state does the dirty work
by JoeyIn our area I know of 3 doctors that got into trouble 2 lost or gave up their license and one passed away, 2 of the 3 doctors had abuse problems and handed out prescriptions to the police without an examination and one of those surprised me as I had never heard of anyone talking about him and I believe that it was a setup and he was ready to retire and folded.
There was one pharmacist in the town and he lost it all because he filled the prescriptions and the report said he did not do so for money he did not inform the powers that the doctor was writing his wife prescriptions for schedule II meds.
That little town had a lot of problems for a long time but I believe that either the state stopped harassing doctors or the new doctors are careful, I have never heard of a patient being harmed but I was gone for almost 20 years and only read about it in the paper and talked to old friends and relatives but clearly the one doctor was selling scripts, he now works on farm animals.
Joey
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all is quiet on the western front......EEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!
byCapster's pain level is back down today! Only slept
a couple of hours last night but they were REALLY good
hours! :}) Anywho. Beautiful day here in God's Country. My offspring are being nice to each other,
I felt them and they don't have fevors! I mean they are not sick, who knows? It is just tooooo quiet without the fighting...maybe I'll have to start something?!?!? :}) ha!ha!ha!
Mrs.Cappy woke me up this morning on her way off to work with the nicest, sloppyest, longest kiss I've had in months. Gee...I might have to have a nap this afternoon? :}) (blush).
Hey Robert! Your almost my neibor...when ya gonna come by...we'll head up to the quarry and do some plink'in! Maybe we could get Wendy to put ole Randellian in a big cardboard box and FedEx'em over here, the three of us could take all these old VCR's I got in "the pile" and do some serious plink'in!!!!!
cap :})
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Your wkend.
byHad school not started , I would have my plinker, my ultra-lite steel-head rod, and the guitar helping me enjoy all the rivers that connect to the Columbia
below the Tri-cities ...
I had honestly thought this summer would provide
a month to look for a new home in Corvllis Or.
I have the cot, mattress, coffee, camera, and
D-E-S-I-R-E . .. . You take those kids fishing
this wkend. enjoy the summer as winter is just another way of telling you your old !!!
Robert
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Shipping me.
by RandyMe go Bye,
Randy
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Summer Camp
byWindy here...How far are you and Robert from Spokane? I may(???)have to come up there for my work sometime and Randy could come and ya'll could say it just like summer camp when ya'll were kids. That would be fun. I would just have to see how much the ticket is. Everytime someone from here goes there it seems like it's kinda high but then there is not a lot of long range planning.
Laura and Karen were going to come here in the spring but things happen. Speaking of Laura, has she made it to Office Depot yet to get a keyboard??Randy hasn't spilled anything in our new one yet. But he is getting realy good at keyboard diving. I going to buy a bike helmet next. HaHa!
Well ya'll ponder this a while and I'll see what happens at work. Good talking to ya. I know Randy will tell ya more but we saw the Space Station and Mars tonight. WOW
Take Care
Windy
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Come on UP !!!!
byHowever you can get here, train, plane, auto- - -
DO IT !!!! My My wouldn't it just be a great thing if we could all converge on Capster..
Just walk up and bomb in by surprise.. Mrs. Capster do you shoot a lot ? Are you a good shot...
Hey Randy you wanna go first ???
No , yes ,no yes by all means if you can get near to us for goodness sakes don't do an AL and get within
8 hours and not say hello. .. Sorry Al but I really would have liked to meet you ....
Keep us posted Windy..just get a pillow and duct tape
for Randy's head..hehehehe
Robert
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happy weekend !! From the PNW
byWell the PNW (Pacific North West ) is at
it's summer BEST... Roses in bloom, blue skies,
gardens starting to 'look' like gardens ...
Summer is nature's smile. Its the laughing I have a hard time with. . . I wanted to much to "SO SOMETHING"
this weekend...like go to the 'Weizer Fiddle Festival"
now Weizer is near Boise Idaho approx. 375 mi. from
here and every year for 5 days 'they' have the "WORLD
FIDDLE CONTESTS " People like Roy Clark,Doc Watson,
Willie and the boys, ect ect come and walk/sit among the common folk and play music.
for 4 years running in the late 80's a 12-16 year
old won the whole works.
It is an amazing event. You need a trailer because the
hotels are reserved a year in advance.
30K people get together and play fiddles, gee-tars
-baize, ect and just teach/learn/enjoy..
We won't make it this year, as I cannot walk more than
100 feet and I'm swamped with school.
But maybe Al knew of this and decided to go .
Al you out there, or out there ? Where is Mr. Al
Well I hope you all are getting some joy from this summer ..... Melissa ???? where are you ?
Are you going to tell us about your "time away" ??
P_L_E_A_S_E_!!!!!
anyone heading out or have plans to challenge their health with some mountain climb, or raft trip down the
Orb river. (Central Russia)
Well have a great weekend .. If I'm lucky I'll get caught up with the lawn ..sound exciting...
well, do you have any great idea's ??
Robert
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Look up.
by RandyJust try to remember to look up outside tonight. Look south I think. Just look for Mars. It is the brightest "star" (I know it is really a planet) in the sky and the most amber/orange color I have ever seen with the naked eye. It is just 32 million miles away from the earth right now.
Another surprise to come is a very large comet that was just discovered headed kind of on an intercept path with the earth. It might get kind of interesting by the end of August! I went to (this is for Joey) www.google.com (a search engine Joey) and entered "New comets found in the sky recently" or something close to that and boy did I find out some interesting stuff! Some scientists are saying that this "very large comet" is going to miss the earth by just 22 million miles. That is a near miss, kind of like I sure hope they are right about the distance and it ain't gonna be closer!!!!!!
Anywho Robert, that was mine and Windys biggy last night, just going outside and seeing Mars! Now you can see why Joey going on a tour of a concrete factory sounds like fun to me!
Take care and heal,
Randy
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Look up indeed
byAt my age looking up beats the hell out of looking down..<sg> sheepish grin. . . .
Robert
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Izit that big red one?
by LukeDang been keyboard diving AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Luck
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piece of cake surgery............indeed!
byRespond to this message
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Great Deb
byGlad that all went well and you type pretty well with one hand.
When I had surgery the last time my doc gave me Vicodin and I have learned to keep a log but instead of 2 every 4 hours I took ½ or one tablet every time I woke up which turned out to be about every 3 hours the first day and I had taken one tablet more than prescribed taking them PRN so I did well.
I keep a log because it is impossible to remember sometimes.
I hope that you continue to do well.
Take care:
Joey
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Fingers do the walking
byIm so happy to see your fingers do the walking...!!!
be nice to you .. your allowed to be sore for a
few ... then its back to walking on your hands !!!
i wish you as litle pain in the fastest of recoveries .. yer friend Robert
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Good, good, good
byI too am glad to hear that it went so well. That is a very good sign. They actually kept to the schedule!!! My doctors don't know how to do that!
It's kind of like Robert said, OK now, everybody starts hand stands tomorrow. hehehehehe(ALWS). I don't think so. We can get a note from your doctor! Heck, Robert will give you a forgery if needed, what the heck, so will me and cappy!
Get well soon and it is good to see you post.
Bestest wishes,
Randy
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Great news!!!!!
by LauraGlad to hear that your surgery is done and over....and hopes for a speedy recovery!!!
Laura
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ALRIGHT DEB!!!!! EEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!
byit! Crawl into bed with a crossword book and dose!
hey....that DOES sound good! Where's my jaamies?!?
:}) cap
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Your Jaamies
by RandyI don't know how to tell you this but I went to put on your jaamies to get comfortable myself but as I quickly found out...you don't wear any jaamies when you are in bed! EEEEEKKEEKEKEKKKKKKEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKK!
Snicker,
Randy
PS...See, nobody screams as good as you!
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birthday jammies
bythose are your birthday jammies...
which are distinct from your toe jammies ........<g>
Robert don't strain to hard on this concept LOL
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Lost one tornado........................
by JoeyBEEP-BEEP BEEP- A tornado is on the ground take shelter immediately: This can be identified by a rotating cloud with cows, horses, and pieces of the Bicknell Fairgrounds and other debris flying in a rotating fashion.
Don’t worry about the animals they are too stupid to know they are in danger, they think the vet has just given them a shot and are enjoying the ride, take a trip and take the farm with you………….
If this doesn’t bother you go to the Oddle Inn on Hwy 67 and have your last drink it is on me……………
joey@nws.gov
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cappy is a hurt'in but still smile'in :})
byit yesterday I guess. My upper left back and neck is
REALLY screaming but my arm and hand isn't kick'in in
this time. But with this new dose of oxy(x3 instead of
x2 per day) I know by this evening I should start doing
better already. Sooooooo just taking it easy.
I lost quite a bit of sleep last night BUT I've been
getting MUCH more than just a month ago so it's not near as bad. And that REAL IMPROVEMENT in sleep is helping me this afternoon. I'm in good spirits and glad to be here! It's days like today that really make me think back to only a few months ago when I felt like I was at the bottom of a deep, dark hole with no way out. You all told me that someday I would
make it here....and here I am. :}) My graditude to all of you is undescribable. You are all in my thoughts and I hope your day is just right.
always-cap :}) EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!!!
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so glad you feel better
byHope you can find a dose that brings you relief all day and night. Make sure you are eating plenty of fruit and take that Yakima paste!! don't get behind that issue.
Have a great day and stay happy!!
Blessings,Gracie
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Cappy
by JoeyDid you see what I wrote at the bottom of that pit?
Don’t call that number she changed it!
Glad you are feeling better, I am also after a really bad day but that was my fault, I got to joking around with Randy last week and I laughed so hard I felt good and went out and wore myself out, when I get wore out I hurt like the devil that next day or 7.
Take care:
Joey
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Sorry Joey
by RandyI didn't know that would happen. We are going to have to keep in down to every other week then, so you can have some recovery time. Hopefully I will die with a smile on your face!haaahahahaaahha.! Hey wait, I might have gotten that backwards.
xoxoxo,
Randy
hehehe.
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I am thrilled for you !!!!!!
by Laura :)Can't type too much as many keys on my keyboard are not working.....but wanted to share my joy for you!!!
Laura
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Mylan has to pay you back for 2 meds during a certain time.
by JoeyI took the generic and I went in for anothe100 and the pharmacist said that it 63.00 or close and I was used to paying about 18.00 here and 7.90 in PA but I asked the pharmacist what was going on and he brought out the letter from Mylan to tell the pharmacists how to talk to irate customers and convince them that they were getting a great deal.
I went straight back to the doctor and I told him and he changed me to Valium but as a person that cares for the working guy he was pretty upset and wanted a copy so he would change those that he could as there were 6 meds that they conspired to fix the prices on.
The pharmacist said that Mylan picked generics that had few makers and bought the raw product and then told the other companies that they would continue to keep the raw materials off of the market if they didn’t raise their prices also.
Somebody didn’t get their payoff and Mylan is now in trouble and I believe that if you take the others that it will come out also good luck!
http://www.agsettlement.com/
1-800-899-5806
Joey
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The FDA meeting
byI will try to keep it orderly and brief (haha)
the meeting will cover all opiate analgesics, in particular several with bad press...but all in various populations.
there are varous populations being treated but not much back up info. Some docs know of contraindications ect but haven't been involved in the fact finding.
Pharma will have 2 copanies there. Not sure who..
will discuss areas for trials
drug interactions
side effects
guidelines
dicussions of abuse potential
risk mangement
We need to pick one rep to cover several areas or boards.
will get to speak 3 minutes if respond soon
need to state our population, diseases (painful)
speak for our situation
help build info
To be effective we must
be clear and consise
speak to the science of it
have 35 copies
have one or two overheads to support our position
the panel to whom the rep will speak is a group of scientist. She emphasized speaking to the science while these folks have feelings the need facts.
This is where all the info we had on my crashed puter would have helped.
Also we are welcome to send in 35 copies of statements now and they are already being distributed to panel
Kim did say that the bad press oxy has gotten will bring it on the scene.
I mentioned morephine pumps and she said it has the worst rep yet. Yet the side of functional people being helped is critical. but we get emotional and don't present ourselves as factual. I know that is true. I get wild when you talk about taking a drug holiday ect.
OH one other thing. If any company pays our way we will have to say so up front.
I questioned the sense of spending a fortune for 3 minutes, yet she indicated this meeting will be what helps set guidelines. So it may be that we need to carefully plan a 3 minute talk..and hope to get 6.
Send me any ideas. I posted on another site as well. If we care we need to look sharp.
Do we have any statistics of those in chronic pain who get effective tx versus non???
I found Kim to be wise, kind and helpful. Keep in mind they have gotten over 7oo requests at this point. She is interested but has a job...so lets rally and find a good positive statement..
I mentioned to her the difficulty of getting tx. We talked about family docs not prescribing meds due to liability ect. She spoke of the witch hunts...
Still to set guidelines means to look at the scientific data not the warm fuzzies.
Blessings, GRacie
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Idea
byFrom what I have read to date I believe that writing letters to forums and making contact with at least one person from every sizeable group to help on a daily basis to get members to write to a group and they will be able to say that they have X number of letters from chronic pain patients that have been helped.
I do not know if the RSD Association will be speaking or not but they were the only group that I know of that have even mentioned this on their site, but I have not been to the other major Foundations to see if they have mentioned this or not.
I believe that it might be best if we concentrated on getting the vote out so to speak.
There are thousands of forums of various sizes on the net and I believe that to reach them we need a short precise letter explaining the mission and asking for help and also a person from each group to e-mail back how many letters have been sent.
I believe that more than anything else we need continuity, thus the simple precise letter that explains what is taking place and where to write and ask one active person from every group to report back to a new or existing mail box so we know who has responded, how many, and if (for instance the American Pain Association and RSD association) to which participating group.
It needs to clearly state that just because a person responds to the RSD group that a person does not need to have that disease, rather the groups are fighting to at least keep the existing laws and to keep the worst from happening, stricter regulations or limitations on who can write for chronic pain patients, and that would kill the people that are self pay, 40.00 a visit to a Family Dr or 125.00 to a Pain doctor.
Many parts of this country have no pain clinic within 100 miles, many have no insurance, no W/C that will pay, no SSD for years, things are better than they were but some people are unable to find a doctor that will prescribe a Schedule II and for so many people nothing else will cut it.
I found the RSD on the Harvard site in chronic pain and I posted it and bumped it a few times and I also explained that I would post it again when things come together and a uniform letter can be copied and pasted on every topic there within an hours time at most and for that site a little variation by asking someone to bump it up and keep it active.
They are at or above 38,000 members now, some weekly some daily but every one of the active sites there have a group of people that will participate and then the links from that site and the many more personal sites need to be contacted.
A long time ago I wanted to see if anyone would want to write a Senator or congressman on a weekly basis changing the recipient maybe monthly but effectively overloading the computer system with mail.
NOW is the time to write a member or 2 that will attend this meeting and their address could be incorporated into the letter.
This is the time that we need to make each shot count and really not put all of our eggs in one basket but make sure that things count.
I believe that a special box needs to be opened for people to report to and a small group of people need the username and password, this needs to be controlled carefully as the larger forums are visited by some very sick people that disrupt the functions of the board by using profanity, pornography and the smarter but sicker people can get a persons address and ruin it, and if it is decided that this is the way to go about this for security the primary box should be gone into on a regular basis and every response forwarded to a secondary box.
I used mail boxes to store my information when I formatted my computer, I don’t know if it was easier than backing up on a zip or floppy or not but it didn’t take long so send everything to 2 of my boxes and all that I need to do if I feel like it is mail it back to my computer cut the addy and paste in word and you never would know the document had been mailed and it is just a few clicks to do it.
We need input and a good Foundation that has the statistics available and someone that will not be bumped an I noticed that the RSD site was a DOT COM if they do the job fine but and EDU or ORG may not have personal gain for their mission but may be obligated for public funding so this could be a knife that cuts both ways.
This my 2 cents worth and I threw in a wooden nickel for fun.
Thanks Gracie & Terry,
Joey
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Getting to the crux of the matter
byGracie , if you have a chance I encourage you to
familiarize yourself with the research coming from
receptor research.
Anything that you have had on your computer longer than 3 months is old hat.
Not only do the FDA know about it , but they will no doubt get to hear about it again several times throughout the meeting.
The issues that matter are issues of efficacy,
the reasons for efficacy, and the alternatives.
If you are going to impact any research
process /legislative/judicial /scientific process with the FDA it will have to be through new research that would challenge old concepts of chronic pain abatement.
i.e. conversions from one drug to another are static.
when we found last year women and men have different amounts and types of receptors.
this means that is the FDA cares about providing the best /safest/ most efficious medications (which is their stated goal ) new data for medications working or not working have to be brought to the for front.
, yet she indicated this meeting will be what helps set guidelines---G
Guidelines for who , the state laws , the state med boards , the federal medical board, the interface between state and federal law, the interface between Fed Med boards and state med boards ????? I don't see
what's being said here ..
What are the parameters of what can come out of this meeting ? Who will their "recommendations " be
given to ? What are the worst case best case scenario ?
Do we have any statistics of those in chronic pain who get effective tx versus non???
According to Randal's pain scale ? Or their MD or the
AMA or FDA.. who is considered an authority on this subject ?
l to set guidelines means to look at the scientific data not the warm fuzzies.---G
I suggest you define what it is you wish to do.
Defend pumps, oxy, pain meds , and with what end in mind.
do you know what the parameters of this meeting
entail .. Until you know what they plan on using the information for you cannot possibly decide what information to provide !!
The Achilles heel of pain medication lies in the unknown, not reiteration of known issues .
Have you spoken with Kimberly about the newly found sets of MU receptors and what their functions are.
Until we know what the Mu -Kappa- Delta- Beta
and 7 other pain receptors and how they relate to the
nerve fibers across any neural matrix, we cannot say
for certain that any pain medication is "better " except through trial and error.
That we don't have this data suggests we very well can be making decisions without adequate data. the same decisions we made 10 years ago when we didn't have this data .. Decisions effected by politics not science. . .
That is worth bring up. As it is about the only data
presently out there that suggests (compellingly I believe) that decisions made without consideration of known data is a bias decision, and a knowingly bias decision is not good science.
Good Luck
Robert
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Article about the DEA giving doctors misery.
byhttp://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23306
A quick glance tells me that this is an article about the DEA harassing doctors that treat pain and how they target doctors that write prescriptions for large amounts of meds for those in extreme pain that seem to be outside of the DEA`s opinion of how much medicine it takes to ease a persons pain.
There were a couple of links to stories past or present I am did not have time to read them.
Joey
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Your Link
by RandyI went to the link that you posted and it was one hell of a good article Joey. It was so good that I e-mailed the author a letter to tell him some more about pain!
Thanks Joey,
Randy
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UMMM
byThe guidelines are what she called them. She said they are suggestions for the doctors and for useage in certain populations.
One area she talked about was the pediatric pop. Of course I know nothing there...nothing at all.
I wondered if perhaps all of us could ask our clinics for general data..ie how many patients..how they rate pain (Randall scale for most) what meds cause improvement...ie average drop of pain/lower scores,
how many patients discharged for drug abuse...
I am not sure if our clinics would do this..I think mine could give some, Terrys some ..
Our docs would have been gold at this point. I know she feels many docs won't participate...ie the witch hunt. Which is true...
I also think the intrest is in risk management...My clinic is very strict in this...how about the rest of us?? I think we could put together data along these lines.
We have a huge membership, many who rarely post. This would be a great time to hear from everyone.
I will read more on the receptors...yikes..
For all of us..we need to defend our use of meds.
she said right now oxycontin is getting bad press but it will be another drug later. she asked what board and I kinda told her!! I told her I also belong to a pumpster group for intrathecal pump support. She said well morephine has the worst reputation..So, I got the feeling any narcotic that helps might be regulated further. Or need more research..ect.
Again she was kind and helpful. I asked what would be most effective to this panel. Thus the science comments. I asked what presentation would be most beneficial. It seems Purdue has motivated certain oxy folks and this group is reacting pretty loudly!! However if Purdue pays the way or tells them the data to use it will sure be obvious...
She seems to be aware of chronic pain and it's challenges. But face it..the press over our meds is rough..and that is what needs to be overcome.
I wonder if we could compile lists of how many years /months/ treatments it took to get any relief/ how many $$$ how much discrimination we face. Ie.. the facts of our financial and physical battle.
I think we might get together a general questionairre with questions regarding tx, meds ect ..using split half reliablity ect. Then any group or person could answer and this data could be used..I like the idea of getting the most input available...
We won't be able to do it anonymously as then we might get doubles ect...
Robert do you have any research projects coming up?? This looks pretty good...But there is very little time..
does anyone know if Lois Randall might go to this meeting!!!
Lets try to put our heads togther and get some data and someidea of how to respond. Also we need to let her know very soon if we will have a speaker.
HELP<HELP.
Blessings,GRacie
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Open letter to GRACIE and ALL
byNothing ventured nothing lost. . .R
We have a huge membership, many who rarely post. -G
I have the names of 44 people (members) other than the folks you have seen post, but they never post, they just read the board and are quiet folks - - -R
. It seems Purdue has motivated certain oxy folks and this group is reacting pretty loudly---G
In my conversation with Kimberly , she said that she had spoken to approx. 700 people, then told me she "knew that Purdue had put 450 + up to writing letters.. "stirring up trouble"
A) There is bad blood between the FDA and Purdue"
I cannot believe 40 people wrote FOR Purdue let alone 450. .
People wrote in the vacuum of uncertainty. When you think your going to
have your meds revoked you act/ react ...
I find very little value in just copying what 700++ other people are going to say...
It didn't change things 10 years ago and it won't do a DAMN thing in this meeting.
The FDA gets real good at shooting down the same things they have heard for 30 years . e.g. I hurt, I'm not an addict, I work, I'm a good little citizen, I'm a productive little citizen, (I'm falling asleep )............... Nice try but BORING !!!!!!
and it will serve no purpose save justify the FDA saying "there is nothing new
out there we haven't read , heard, been told in testimony , so if there is no new news, let us move along to our method of dealing with this crisis...
Crisis ? Yes the DRUG CRISIS . . . .If your not part of the solution your part of the problem..
What can you tell the FDA that they have NOT yet addressed in public ? ?
When you know the answer to that question you will know that is what you should
be discussing. Something they do NOT have a pat answer for !!
she asked what board and I kinda told her!! ---------- - - -G
As you have taken an interest in this, I think vote for you to represent us..
Can you take written testimony/question's /statements/ research/
and what they call BMW time ...
NOT Bavarian Motor Works - - - -Bitching Moaning and Whining
Perhaps you might be aware that BMW testimony ends up in the round file ASAP.
But face it..the press over our meds is rough----G
Beware of the Trojan Horse Gracie, this gal doesn't make 150K a year to
make the FDA out as puppets of a conservative administration.. I don't really care how that hits people , this administration has shown its colors with Aschroft,
and Ashcroft would ban the use of opioids for non-malignant pain in a nano-second. Think not ? Then why is there such a meeting NOW?
To what positive end can it come ? why does the FDA blame the drug and not the idiots that abuse it ? Why are there more DEA going after MD's today in June of
2001 than ever before in history ? Is it because they are supportive of opioid treatment for chronic pain ? I think not.. I'm too much of a cynic or realist to
do this as I resigned from grant writing because these people are NOT interested in people they are interested in their job's ..You see it differently and so you should
take the words of our group to these warm and understanding people.
I wonder if we could compile lists of how many years /months/ treatments it took to get any relief/ how many $$$ how much discrimination we face. Ie.. the facts of our financial and physical battle.- - - -G
That will no doubt be covered by the nice folks that run Patient Assistance Programs. They will say how nice they are for giving away drugs to the indigent
and how much they need them and how bad things would be without their help.
REALITY: they have these programs only so the government doesn't cap
drug prices , or force more insurance companies into paying for medication !!
Gracie you will have to think out of the box, if your going to make a lasting impression.... anything else is just old song and dance. ---- R
does anyone know if Lois Randall might go to this meeting---G
Lois has been very ill and AI would think she will let her pain scale speak for her , as
it is a recognized index all can agree on , and refer to., - - - -R
Also we need to let her know very soon if we will have a speaker. ----R
You have my vote Gracie .. !! Your talking to her and have the rapport.
A important statistic might be - - --
If the FDA stopped MD's from treating chronic intractable pain with opioids tomorrow, would that stop you from a further search for pain abatement.
What kind of pain abatement would you seek. . .
My answer - - - NO ! and opioids any way I could get them !!
So the FDA can create 1 million hard core felons over night.... yes ? no ?
YES !!
R
Let me know how I can help ... Good luck - - - R
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Gender differences in Responses to Pain Medications
byto get you knee deep in said differences. The notation of differences and
the simple question "if those in the area where this information could do the most good e.g. FDA" have noted this data and made adjustments .. If not why not. . .?"
there is further data on specific studies and links ..
If this seems of interest to you, I have over 5000KB of research and links .
Or if you would wish to just have a question to present to the FDA, please let me know.
If there are others that would like to pursue this substantive line of research,
I will forward to you specialized research that to my knowledge has not been addressed by any FDA review board but at some time in the near future must
come under scrutiny and integration into the present systems of inquiry as it is valid, and needs review, this review can only help the causes of the CPP.
This is three overview articles that have a biblo.. you may glean enough from these
to bring you knee deep in said differences. The notation of differences and
the simple question "if those in the area where this information could do the most good ( e.g. FDA) " have noted this data and made adjustments ?
If not why not. . .?"
This should give anyone who will take the time to familarize themselves with this data a distinct subject matter which is not found in decision making processes
within the FDA.
"To change the status quo, takes an equal and opposite resistance exerted at the correct level, with accurate timing, delivered by the appropriate authority."
Robert Root-
http://www.mmhc.com/jgsm/articles/JGSM9910/pharm.html
Gender differences in Response to : Pain Medications
By Janice B. Schwartz, MD
The net effect following drug administration in men and women depends on the sum of a number of processes, summarized as pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. Pharmacokinetic processes determine the rate of appearance, distribution throughout tissues, and elimination of drug from the body. The major pharmacokinetic terms that describe these processes are bioavailability, distribution, and clearance.
The processes related to the effect of a drug on the body are termed pharmacodynamics. Pharmacodynamic models relate drug dose or concentration to the intensity of response or "effect." The study of pharmacodynamic processes is somewhat newer, and data are more limited than for pharmacokinetic processes. Therefore, it is not surprising that there are fewer data regarding gender-related differences in pharmacodynamics than in pharmacokinetics.
Nonetheless, we are increasingly recognizing that the physiologic differences between men and women result in altered responses to drugs in women compared with men. This is an exciting and rapidly evolving area. The purpose of this month's column is to summarize the emerging data on gender-related differences in response to pain medications. The focus will be on scientific data that are robust and that have clinical consequences.
PAIN PERCEPTION
Traditionally, many doctors have believed that women have lower pain thresholds and less tolerance for pain compared with men, and the literature documents that women report higher pain levels for a given stimulus intensity of electrical, thermal, or pressure damage.1-3 The corollary would be lesser pain medication efficacy in women compared with men, or higher concentrations of pain medications needed to produce pain relief in women compared with men. The limited experimental and clinical data suggest that gender differences in pain medication responses do exist.
PAIN MEDICATIONS
This column will discuss gender differences specifically in opioid drugs, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, selective cyclooxygenase 2 inhibitor drugs, and other agents.
Opioid Drugs
Opioid receptors found in the central nervous system belong to three major pharmacologic classes: delta, kappa, and mu (morphine-like). A series of landmark studies have demonstrated gender-related differences in pain relief with kappa opioids. Investigators first studied pain relief after dental extraction in men and women using the kappa-opioid pentazocine. They were surprised to find that pentazocine produced pain relief in women but negligible pain relief in men.4,5 The group then studied two additional kappa opioids, nalbuphine and butorphanol, and found that both of these drugs produced significantly greater analgesia in women.6 These gender-related differences in responses to three kappa opioids suggest that gender differences exist in responses to other kappa opioids such as spiradoline, enadoline, the endogenous peptides with kappa-opioid selectivity (dynorphin A and B), and ß-funaltrexamine. The physiologic basis for the gender-related difference is not currently known.
To date, most of the opioids commonly used for pain relief are relatively selective for the mu receptor. Clinical pain relief can be achieved with mu opioids in both men and women; gender-specific efficacy for mu-type opioids has rarely been investigated. One of the few investigations, by Minto et al,7 failed to find gender differences in the pharmacodynamics of a short-acting opioid, remifentanil. Gender-related variations in mu-opioid receptor binding have been studied in healthy humans with positron emission tomography.8 Higher mu-opioid binding potential was seen in young women compared with men in some cortical and subcortical areas. However, binding in the thalamus and the amygdala declined in postmenopausal women to levels below those of men. The clinical significance of these gender-related differences awaits delineation, but the higher receptor content may play a role in the greater pain sensitivity of healthy younger women compared with men.
Since the mu-receptor opioids produce more nausea, sedation, confusion, constipation, and respiratory depression than the kappa opioids, there may be clinical advantages to greater use of the kappa opioids in women. Because there was negligible and only short-lasting pain relief in men given the kappa opioids, there would be little role for these drugs for the management of pain in men.
Clinical correlate: Pain relief with fewer side effects than with morphine-like pain medications may be achieved with kappa-opioid medications in women but not in men. Examples are pentazocine, nalbuphine, and butorphanol.
Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs
There have been no large prospective clinical comparisons of responses to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) in women versus men. However, the large clinical trials of these drugs for the relief of chronic osteoarthritis pain and rheumatoid arthritis pain included significant numbers of women for whom the drugs were efficacious. The drugs have also been widely used and are efficacious for the treatment of mild to moderate pain from many etiologies in women as well as in men. It is, therefore, difficult to put in clinical perspective the results of the small, carefully controlled study by Walker and Carmody9 on electrical pain in which selected doses of ibuprofen produced relief from electrically induced pain only in men. The most likely explanation
would be that the dose–response relationship for this NSAID is altered by gender but that women as well as men have pain relief from NSAIDs.
Clinical correlate: Quantitative differences in responses to NSAIDs may occur in men and women, and dosages should be individually titrated.
Selective Cyclooxygenase-2 Inhibitor Drugs
The absence of clinical comparisons of efficacy in women compared to men is again apparent regarding cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) medications. The premarketing efficacy trials for these newer agents, however, included large numbers of women, and there is little question that both celicoxib and rofecoxib effectively reduce pain of osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis in women as well as men. Although the efficacy profile for the COX-2 inhibitors may be similar in men and women, a gender-specific difference in adverse drug reactions to celicoxib may exist. Women are more likely than men to have been exposed to sulfa medications and to have developed drug allergies to sulfa-containing compounds. Celicoxib is a sulfa-containing compound that will produce reactions in sensitive individuals.
Clinical correlate: COX-2 inhibitors are effective in both women and men; however, women are more likely to have sulfa allergies, which are a contraindication to celicoxib.
Other Agents: Lidocaine, Acetaminophen, Codeine
Minto et al7 suggest that there are no gender-related differences in blockade of pain with topical lidocaine. No investigations were found that addressed potential gender-related differences in pain responses to acetaminophen or codeine, with no clinical reports to suggest that such differences exist.
SUMMARY
Differences exist between men and women in both perception of and response to pain. Whereas gender-related differences in pharmacokinetics may have confounded earlier studies of pain responses, emerging scientific evidence suggests gender-related pharmacologic differences in central nervous system opioid mu-receptor binding and in responses to kappa-opioid pain medications. These differences suggest the importance of developing gender-specific strategies for pain relief and highlight the need for further investigation of gender-related pain treatment strategies.
Acknowledgment
Preparation of this work was supported in part by grants PHRA 1KO7AG00768 and RO1 AG 15982.
About the Author
Dr. Schwartz is Professor of Medicine and Chief of Clinical Pharmacology and Geriatric Medicine, Northwestern University Medical School, Chicago, IL. Address for correspondence: Janice B. Schwartz, MD, 303 E Superior St, Jennings 209, Chicago, IL 60611. E-mail: jbs157@nwu.edu.
References
1. Miaskowski C. Women and pain. Critical Care Nursing Clinics of North America 1997;9(4):453-458.
2. Unruh A. Gender variations in clinical pain experience. Pain 1996;65:123-167.
3. Fillingim R, Maizner W. Gender differences in the responses to noxious stimuli. Pain Forum 1995;4:209-221.
4. Gordon NC, Gear RW, Heller PH, et al. Enhancement of morphine analgesia by the GABA agonist baclofen. Neuroscience 1995;69:345-349.
5. Gear R, Miaskowski C, Gordon N, et al. Kappa-opioids produce significantly greater analgesia in women than in men. Nat Med 1996;2:1248-1250.
6. Gear RW, Gordon NC, Heller PH, et al. Gender difference in analgesic response to the kappa-opioid pentazocine. Neurosci Lett 1996;205:207-209.
7. Minto C, Schnider T, Egan T, et al. Influence of age and gender on the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of remifentanil, Pt. I: Model development. Anesthesiology 1997;86(1):10-23.
8. Zubieta J, Dannals R, Frost J. Gender and age influences on human brain mu-opioid receptor binding measured by PET. Am J Psychiatry 1999;156(6):842-848.
9. Walker J, Carmody J. Experimental pain in healthy human subjects: Gender differences in nociception and in response to ibuprofen. Anesth Analg 1998;86(6): 1257-1262.
Doctors and therapists have long recognized that people feel pain differently and that particular pain relievers help some people more than others. "Arthritic people try over-the-counter remedies. Some work, some don't," Mogil says. "This implies that there are responders and non-responders. Wouldn't it be great if we could figure out why?"
http://thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/news/arthritis/0500/pain.shtml
Gender is a significant factor in understanding the biology of a particular function. Human gender differences are present in both experimental pain responses and prevalence of painful diseases. In general, women exhibit an increased sensitivity to acute pain compared with men.
http://www1.od.nih.gov/painresearch/genderandpain/abstracts/dborsook.htm
http://www.mmhc.com/jgsm/articles/JGSM9910/pharm.html
Recorded by - - Robert Root for Pain-Management Co-op Archives
6/21/01
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Reply to Robert and all
byI believe that you have been the spokesperson for this board. When she asked who I was affiliated with I told her I am on a pain forum and also a pumpster group. I told her that I was asking for my benefit, but would share it with others. She felt that was fine. So, I did not present myself as a spokesperson. She does know you, and I believe you made contact for the board?? She indicated she had heard from you and other pain patients, RA groups, and others.
Second she states this is not the first meeting but rather the third(I think..she may have said three before this). She was surprised at the response to this one..so she said.Again this brought the comments about Purdue. What the truth is on that??Who knows. I am positive they would like to know who will be present and what the focus will be. As you may recall, there was an issue about Oxy and young people who abused it and died. There may in fact be some of those families present, although she didn't present that response as heavy yet.
Robert..no amount of reading will make me a scientist. There is no way to disguise me as one. However, I think we can address this more scientifically or as she said speak to the science of it. My interpretation of that statement was that "warm fuzzies, sob stories and so forth would not be as effective as more precise statements. Again a scientist I'm not.
I thought it was stated earlier by you Robert that our Docs would not get near this event....If I drew a wrong conclusion from that..so be it. And bring them on. They have data from daily clinic activity that might support our cause.
I would be willing to try and get a questionnaire out that could be responded to by chronic pain people..and maybe even go a step further and see if one could be drafted for docs..just to get data and "see" what might be concluded from it...Some times the common statements we see..are not what the norms are. For example..the Dr spoke to the stats in his practice. The data would speak far more clearly than any opinion we hold.
I have no desire to go try to speak on some topic I don't understand and barely follow. No, I get plenty of grief without that. The things I do know and can speak about may not be what is most beneficial for a group of pain patients..
It is also clear that I don't have the same views as many of the my cyber friends who post. So, where is the common good and common ground??? To have adequate pain control is all of our hopes. To find relief in this life is a goal for each of us. To give support to others who hurt is a deep desire for many of us. I can speak to the destruction chronic pain brings, the relief treatment can be and the need for practical guidelines for the good of all. I can not and would not speak to this administration and the "conservative Christian " viewpoint ruining the pain treatment process. As it has been pointed out, I am Christian and to some I appear conservative.(Conservatives find me liberal) So, those issues won't be elaborated on or espoused by me. While there are many claims of the demise of pain control due to this administration I haven't found anyone who can tell me they lost their meds due to any one politician. I hear many things but when I follow the data, I often don't come to the same conclusion some of you do. That is why we all have our own opinions.
To the statement that this meeting may be a waste...indeed it may. That is one thing we all will have to look at and decide. For about three minutes of time, it may have an expensive price tag...What can be accomplished?
The fact that there will be time for public input does say that in some small way there will be voices that are heard. The impression those voices make will vary, depending on the strength of the speaker and the material spoken about.
Perhaps I am too simplistic, perhaps believing that a well expressed statement can benefit chronic pain patients is naive. Never the less...I believe.
Many blessings,Gracie
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Surgery Tomorrow........
byRespond to this message
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Good Luck
by Take care!Respond to this message
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Good luck......
by JoeyThis is the day that you have been waiting on and I hope all goes well and you get some relief from the pain.
We will be waiting to hear from you when you are feeling like typing a few lines, don’t worry about the format and spelling, now you know that I am pulling your leg.
Try to go to sleep laughing and see if you can wake up laughing and when they ask you why tell them that you heard the jokes that the Dr was telling in the OR>eo
Be Good!
Joey
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many prayers
byBe good , post and let us know you are ok...
Docs be kind to her. She is our coffee lady!!!
Let the sun shine and the wind blow!!!
Blessings,GRacie
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Hi DEB get some sleep now!
by RandyMy computer has been on the fritz a bit and I just now found your post. Sorry. I know that you won't read this before you go so I will just say...aren't those pre-op shots nice? They take all the pain, or most of it, away and keep you from getting up and running down the hall in one of those gowns with the flap opened in the back! heheheehe. Be good and get some much needed and well deserved rest.
Take care,
Randy
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Gods Speed , many prayers , and LOVE
byWe all been a waiting for this for about a months now..
So I hope you kno some ofus are very hopeful and eager to hear how well your going to do..
Please let us know how you are. Even if you have to
con your kidz into writing us for you ..
Gods Speed , many prayers , and LOVE
Robert
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My so called life......
by JoeyI woke up this morning not able to move again, my good side from hip to foot felt like I was having surgery and the doctor let me wakeup while the surgeon was sawing on the bone, and I tried for about 45 minutes to get the phone and finally I heard a neighbor yell if I needed help and she called my dad and he came over and got me up on my walker and gave me some MS and a glass of water.
I guess that I wasn’t feeling as good as I thought I was as I had cut back on the MSContin because I thought that I felt better, I guess I am used to feeling good when a normal person would feel bad.
He took me to the doctor and the office lady said they were too busy she said to go to the ER, I guess she didn’t know that I needed to see the doctor and my condition was not a normal one, Thursday I have an appointment and I am chewing some ass big time, I WILL BE HEARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Seven years of bull no doctor that will sick out their rosy white neck can kiss my aching butt they are a bunch of worthless, I am better than you, my s*** don’t stink, stuck up, money grabbing bastards.
My dad said no way the last time he almost decked the doctor (even though it was a lady) he was livid when she asked if “he carried on like that often” well lady if you woke up in the middle of surgery you would scream also, so the ER here is a worthless trip.
I have no idea what to do for SS I have no Dr that has seen me like this and I should have a hearing in August.
If your going to play in Texas ye gotta have a fiddle in the band.
That is my news Y`all have a nice day.
Joey
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Leave the driving to them !!
byDo what isthe least path of resistance ...
Get an attorney .. go on contingent and have him/her
tell you what they want you to do so they can win the case..
It's almost impossible to win the 1st time around ..
attrition= 92%........they say NO !!!!
But the 8% have attorneys .. and they get no $$ unless they win.. do it, do it, do it, till your satisfied ! Come on and do it. . Sly and the family Stone !!
Robert let an attorney stress out.. Its worth it...
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A Lawyer
by JoeyI didnt file years ago but my doctor then said he would fill out the papers but he said they turn down young people, and I didnt know where this was going to take me so I missed all of the years of back pay.
I stopped by the lawyers office yesterday but he was gone but I wanted to see what doctor he wanted me to see, my Ortho retired so all I have seen are the Nurse Practitioners and the meds make me look pretty normal and I am until I stand or walk for about 2 hours then it is pretty bad.
There were 2 ladies working in the pharmacy yesterday and they didnt have to but they came out to help me into my truck, I looked like I was 95 years old , I could not lift my leg into the truck without using my hands, but anybody that would have been in my bedroom yesterday would have no doubt that I was in bad trouble.
When I am finally able to see a judge in a month or 3 I am going to find a stack of baled hay and carry one around for a few hours and I will have to be carried into see the judge, I am like a car that stops making the noise at the garage.
Mopar Joe
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Lookin Good
bybe seen .. Hell, Joey I looked just fine except for the fact I was going bonkers with pain when I had my hearing.. a good attorney knows the system, has lunch with the judge, plays golf with the state procicutor,
and cuts dirty deals ... Good luck..
You don't want to LOOK bad ... then your guarenteed you
will feel bad ...
Robert
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what is it
byWe all seem to do this from time to time. Then the pain is so much more than we can bear.
Joey try to be kind to you. No more self adjusting doseages. No hay baling.
The ssi is important. The areas of concern are personal care and daily function. You seem to have many needs in these areas. Terrys went to 6 months from the onset of disability. Can't yours??
I know you think very little of Christians and prayers but I'll say one for you anyway!! The truth is there is ignorance in many groups, so it is found in place of support at times. Sorry that is true but it is.
May all get better for you.
Blessings,GRacie
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Huh...........
by JoeyI was turned down as not being unable to do gainful employment and the lawyer had me to fill the first one out and after I was rejected he filed an appeal and I should see a judge in August if they are running 6 months after the rejection.
If I would have filed years ago, I would have all of the time as back pay if I win.
I believe that it is 6 months after you file and I was about 4 years before I even filed the doctor never told me that I would get worse and I didn’t have a computer to lookup Causalgia, that is what he called it at that time and he just said it was nerve damage and I never thought that I would get like this, I knew I would get better.
When he changed it from Causalgia to RSD W/C quit paying for all medical, it is really the same thing but it has been changed to CRPS type 1 & 2.
I found out what it was when he wrote Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy on a piece of paper and handed it to me and walked out of the room and the next working day his office called and told me to go to IU and don’t come back to see the Dr.
I read it and it was like I wrote it my pain doctor laughed and said no way but offered no suggestions, my then family doctor got mad and said it was wrong that it was a nerve problem no kidding doc that is what RSD is.
My pain Dr got mad because I looked it up on the internet and he kept calling the lady Dr`s at IU gals and I corrected the kid at least 5 times and I thought he was going to cry he started rambling about having to be there for 24 more hours and I jumped him good and told him he made too much money and he was just an overpaid kid I saw him weak and he cracked like a baby, Danny Boy is my name for him.
The surgeon has been one since 63 and Dr. Ward at IU has been at it for a good 20 years and I believe them more than a kid with a foreign diploma.
Professor Ward at IU talked to me for at least 2 hours and he kept going in circles asking why it took me 4 years to get to him for help and I told him and he couldn’t believe it he was pretty ticked off.
I believe it as I had a knee that was shredded and I was never sent to an Ortho 26 and on crutches for 6 months and I didn’t know there were bone doctors, this is the quality of the doctors here.
Both feet and both hands started hurting at the same time after I got hurt and a doctor told me I had carpel tunnel in both wrists and tarsal tunnel in both feet, I didn’t know then how stupid that is but I would have a better chance of winning the lottery in all 50 states than getting that in 4 places at one time.
We have a nice building but we have no doctors.
Joey
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mutual bump and grind
byStatistically over 92% of all requestsare turned DOWN
on the first application and 85% on the second..
Its a #'s game. You have to wear THEM down.
Robert
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I will hope.
by JoeyI would rather work if I could find someone that would not mind it if I was 3 hours late and didn`t mind a 2 hour time to type a 3 page letter, I guess about 3 words per minute.
I have seen a RN get SS in 9 months and she is not close to being like I am.
Joey
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Emotional Wellness Week
byForgive Their Trespasses
Science is beginning to verify advice long given by spiritual
leaders and wise moms and dads: Nursing grudges against those
who have done you wrong will hurt you worse than it hurts them.
New work shows it can contribute to emotional problems and even
heart disease. June 17 to 23 is National Forgiveness Week,
an ideal time to work at finding it in your heart to save your
heart by forgiving those who've trespassed against you.
- - sounds like a good idea for chronic pain persons who carry around so much physical pain. . .
Robert
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Thanks
by JoeyJoey
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Wrong mirror
byYou see I do not have one single aunt, uncle, brother, sister, mother father, or even 90% of the friends I had prior to R. Arthritis all think I'm lazy..
drug taking slacker, who loves to sit around stoned - - I guess -- -What ever their feelings they translate very negatively to me .
I started a Commodity brokerage with my last 15 K and built it into a 7 million dollar a year business,
that was my 4 the business.. each business was a little bigger and a little more successful.
I worked my way through collage as a plasterer.
Stucco- cement-plaster, gypsum- 110 lbs bags
and putting cement on ceilings is what did my back in.
Then when I was to broken physically I jumped to a general contractor, grant writer, and finally
the Commodities . In that I owned my own businesses
time meant NOTHING... 14 hour days the norm
one day off a month if I was lucky..
This went on from 1979-1994. Not the physical abuse but STRESS and long hours.
I have never been one to sit down longer than 10 min. unless I had a cast on or recent surgery , I go 101 MPH.
Yet when my Ex left because the guys that bought my business bankrupted it in 1996 only two years after I sold it to them for 1.8 million,my whole world caved in. I sold my business because my Doc said I was going to be very sick in the near future..he was right
I spent at least 15-20 days a month in bed from
1996 to 1998...That was computer "learning time"
I also ruptured and had my achillies reattached
(both of them) I was in managed care for 5 months ..
All my life I had an open door policy, if someone needed something, if I had it , it was theirs ..
We fed, housed ,fished hunted, and generally played
recreational center for a dozen of my friends who I bought 2 trailers for so they could stay down on the
river (25 miles from the Pacific Ocean) It was
dreamland.. granted I was sick and in a lot of pain but if your going to hurt that is the place to do it..
After my divorce , my company going bank-o,
leaving me to pay 3 out of pocket surgeries , 2 for me 1 for my daughter, all of a sudden my nest egg wasn't even a nest !! I was to sick to resist and to tired to fight..
My Ex's attorney was a woman who lived with another woman and did NOT like men. I let my Ex have what she wanted , EVERYTHING, house, cars , bank accounts , property, investments, and I kept (over a day to day grilling) my 41 guns .. I sold all but a few as to live.
So, when I moved off the Oregon Coast because I couldn't get my mind off my 21 year old marriage,I came back to E. Washington -- N. Idaho area as my family was here and I needed some support ...I went through 2 lumbar surgeries (fusions ) with just the visiting nurses. There wasn't anyone at the hospitals when I came out of surgery....
So, Joey, I came back here knowing my folks were getting up there in age and I wanted to spend some time with them as they simply were getting old.
What happened I could have never predicted..
My ex made claims about money, ( I had stolen 300K
from her and my daughters ) NOT !!
She had everything... I was a poor father ( I built volleyball, basket-ball, drove to every game , talked to teachers , spent all the time I could (when they get to be teenagers they think adults are worthless anyway) In my heart/mind I know I gave them a fantastic life, trips to Disney Land , the Redwoods , family outings , they were allowed to bring friends ..
I was villainies by my Ex who is now an alcoholic,
addict (speed , coke) she had a complete moral fabric
180 degree turn. . and the family thought she could do no wrong... while she smoked, drank , and sexed her
way through some personal revolution..
I had dried her out twice during our marriage because she just couldn't drink without getting
in a black-out.. She had some very good qualities but
she had enough of the bad to be considered a unfit mother. She bought pot for my daughters and smoked it with them when they were 13 -14 years old ...
Well , my family wouldn't ever even consider the fact the she was an alcoholic.
After a few years rolled by and her inability to hold her facade up became apparent , the family "didn't want to talk about it" .........
a. I MOVED NO FORWARDING ADDRESS..UNLISTED PHONE.
HAVE EFFECTIVELY GOTTEN A DIVORCE FROM MY FAMILY.
I carry a lot of animosity towards every one of them..
They asked a lot when I was doing very well, but as they say "Nobody Loves You when Your Down and Out"
So I carry this huge stuff bag.. I haven't talked with a family member for over a year.
I want apologies, for without them, I do not feel like forgiving them..they have made my life far more difficult than needed.
So when I posted that message it was with this
baggage that I was referring ...I cannot make inferences in peoples lives I do not know about !!
hope you understand . I guess if you asked real nicly I could ask Randy to bad mouth you <g> !!!
Robert
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I thought that I was a bug, I saw a lot of windshilds..
by JoeyIt was ironic as during the time that you posted this I was using Word to write the above post (I edited it heavily) but I was really slinging mud and after I posted only then did I see your post and it fit.
Family, for me my sister never calls unless she is drunk, my brother never calls and when he did he wanted me to invest in some money loosing scheme and when I didn’t my dad would get mad.
My Dad is a good man but when he took me to the doctor yesterday the lady asked him what was wrong he doesn’t know and he never will, he talks bad government this and that I can be talking about how good the tomatoes are at Maysville and it will turn into a government plot.
I know the government is selling us down the river, and keep up on things that most people REFUSE to believe but is true but I can`t change it without a gun and my life and since I want to live and I won`t very long I am not going to worry about it.
My mother was an uncaring alcoholic that gave us to my dad who kept us together in foster homes until he married my 1st stepmother that beat me so bad that the ball coaches asked me if I had got kicked by a horse or was I being beaten, kids lie and schools didn’t get into peoples lives then like today.
When I was in the first grade I woke up and there was blood all over the place and nobody home but that was usual but I didn’t understand the blood until after dark that day my Dad came back from Cinci as my mother had cut my grandmother all up in a drunken rage and nobody bothered to check on my little brother and my sister in her crib and it was normal for us to be left alone for days at a time and I was 6 years old trying to feed my brother and sister anything I could find.
She kept beating me one day because I went out to play after school and not stay in my room except for school and she cornered me in the pantry and I grabbed a butcher knife and put it against he gut and told her if she touched me again I was going to gut her and to get the hell out and that we hated her, I started doing drugs and drinking until I was 29 years old and I quit drinking 4 years ago.
Yeh I sort of know what you mean.
Joey
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That Jarred It!
by RandyRandy,
Hi Cappy and Laura too.
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Must be on my end!
by RandyIt must be a glitch on my computer. Maybe Windy needs to defrag the thing (whatever that means, but it sounds neat!) I have loaded about 15 new "favorite sites" in the past few days so maybe that is it. I might be loading too much on this little memory computer?? Everytime I see reference to firearms or ammo I add it to my favorites so I can go back and price check. Hey, it is kind of like shopping except on a computer. Neat idea. I wonder if I'm the first to put this together?Bwahahahaa. NOT!
I read about our new house Gracie and it sounds just like where I'd love to come visit you and Terry for the weekend so go ahead and get it. I have some Roundup that we can spray the poison ivy with, but take some Benedryl (call your doctor first to find out if it is compatable with the medicine in your pump though)! We don't want you going to sleep for a long, long time if you know what I mean. OK, ok.
I used to catch poison ivy from our goats! I didn't realize that song: mare's eat oats and does' eat oats but little lambs eat ivy, a kidd'll eat ivy too wouldn't you...was true! I wouldn't eat ivy but I finally figured out where all of my poison ivy was coming from when I looked out the window and one of the goats was standing on his hind legs eating the poison ivy off of a pine tree. Trouble was, when he got through with the ivy, he started eating the full grown 80 foot tall pine trees also! He reminded me of that goat on the cartoon, Billy boy boy boy.
Take care Gracie, Terry and Robert, I will put Windy to work on solving this problem sometime this weekend (Yeah, right, Windy will you please help me????) She is so nice!
See ya'll later,
Randy
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Swollen face
byI thought I found the house of my dreams. It's a million miles from people.. well a few anyway..on the lake..granted up on a high hill.. so pretty..maybe I shouldn't have walked around it... not breathing good now!!! Sure is nice...it would almost take a boat..then I could leave my car at the dock and take the boat home....except I have no boat!! Small technicality. Terry thinks this is the reason to buy one!!!! Price is a bit on the high side...hmmmm..it's lotto time. Well, i guess I'll write when I can see and breathe...back to bed....
Blessings, Gracie
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ouch!
byI was brought up in foster homes and one farmer had a brown paper sack of white powder and his wife would mix it with water and put it on me and it cured it in a day or 2.
I can only guess that the stuff was salicylic acid that the vet gave to them he was their cousin.
That stuff is in Whitfield’s solution, old horse liniment and I bought some but I am afraid to mix it and use it, I don’t trust my litmus paper it is way to old, anyone want a jar of salicylic acid?
I had 240 acres to play on and my choice of pigs chickens or cows to play with and a big Sycamore that had a huge horizontal limb with a vertical limb at the end and I would go out on that over the creek and get it rocking up and down and sing Lilies of The Valley, I don’t even remember it now but that tree was grown just for me.
Joey
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sounds like my dads house when he was a kid!
by RandyMy father lived in a similar type "homestead" when he was a kid. He was born in 1926 and is in better physical shape than me! He works out at a gym twice a week!!! He's 75!!!!
He told me once that when he was a kid that they didn't have many toys (or shoes) and he would take a piece of feed corn and auger a little hole in it with his pocket knife and run a string through the hole. The other end of the about 20 foot length of sting was tied to a stick about 4 or 5 inches long, (kind of an early T-handle)!
After telling me this story, I took some feed corn to work at the gunshop one day and drilled holes through several pieces and built the same type rig as he did back in the 1930's during the depression and gave them to him for Fathers day that year. He liked them so much that he had one put in a shadow box and hung it on his wall at work! (I also had to make one for everyone in the gunshop also when they heard the story!) HA! They thought it was a good idea also.
Oh yeah, the purpose of this rig...Well, they didn't have television back then (because it hadn't really been invented very good yet plus it was mostly a European contraption!) and the radio was only listened to for an hour or two a couple of times a week. [They had just gotten electricity put in several parts of the house.] So to entertain himself and his siblings, he would take his corn rig out to the chicken pen and throw the piece of corn in the chicken pen and when a chicken would take the "bait" he would wait for it to start walking away and then pull the piece of corn back out of its craw and watch the suprised expression on the chickens face!
Warning: don't try this with geese as their digestive tract works at an excellerated pace to that of a chicken. There is a possibility that you could end up with goose on a string!
It was during the depression and there wasn't much to do for a kid when his chores were finished for the day.
I am sitting here chuckling thinking about that 75 year old man doing that when he was a kid...God, I think those were better times. WW2 could not have even been dreamed of and the War to End All Wars (WW1) was over (1918) and mankind would never have to worry about war again.
People that lived in the country weren't really affected much by the Great Depression because they grew what they ate and bartered for most of the rest.
There is a bridge that still stands across a creek that I cross sometimes going to visit relatives 1 1/2 hours away that he said his dad used to leave a 50 pound bag of sugar under on a certain day and about a week later they would go back to the bridge and there would be 1 gallon of corn liquor (moonshine) cooling in the water of the creek under the bridge. Medicinal purposes you know!
A different time, a more innocent time.
Randy
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I need INPUT please !!!!!
byTest, I don'tknow Randy , I have no problem accessing the board ..so far ..I think..
I have been healing as I mentioned to you ..
Is it that no one can post a letter ?????????
I will test this ..
IF ANYONE IS UNABLE TO POST PLEASE WRITE TO ME
RU42354@PRODIGY.NET
i NEED TO KNOW WHAT IT IS I NEED TO HAVE FIXED..
THE FOLKS HERE ARE VERY RESPONSIVE !!!!
I JUST DON'T UNDRESTAND WHAT-WHY-WHO-WHEN-WHERE ?
hope you all are having a good summer.
Gee, what do you do when you hate the heat and hate the cold ????? I need to know ..
Robert
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Hate heat & hate cold.
by Joey<J>
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My kind of town
byRobert No salmon in San Diego--- No Moose -
No muleis -- no snow - - I don't speak the language. . .
Robert
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IT WAS MY COMPUTER ROBERT
by RandyThanks for fixing to try to do something for me.
Sincerely,
Me (Randy)
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