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Help with badge ID please

May 28 2008 at 11:52 AM

Gerry  (Login NightReaper)
Forum Member
from IP address 86.134.203.85

Hello chaps - any ideas for these 3 badges? Size of the top 2 is the same as forage cap wings. I'm leaning towards sweetheart type badges rather than official issue - but I could be wrong. Thanks Gerry


 
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Alex
(Login gate1)
Forum Member
91.106.18.14

Badge ID

May 28 2008, 12:39 PM 

Hi Gerry

The top badge is a sweetheart badge which has been made from an officers side cap badge, and probably gilded. it looks like it might have been a sand cast badge possibly too. You can see where the screw thread has been removed from the centre back of the crown.

The second badge is an eagle from an officers cap badge with bend over prongs, one of which is missing. The eagles came with fixings of screw thread (normally for side cap or used as a 'pathfinder' eagle), a pin fitting (sweetheart or pathfinder badge) or bend over prongs (usually the Officers cap badge only, as constant removal would result in the prongs breaking).

The last badge is almost certainly a decorative broach as its not fine enough for an issue badge. saying that it might be a decorative badge worn on something like a bandsmans kilt or the tartan 'shawl' worn across the shoulder (I'm sure there is a proper name for it but I dont know it!). I have a similar RCAF Badge about twice normal size in chromed finish worn by a bandsman. Again, its slightly rough so might be sand cast. There is a possibility it might be Indian Air Force, but if so, again probably some sort of ceremonial badge.

The first and second badges face the 'wrong' way, ie to the left rather than the normal right. I have seen numerous badges like this although admittedly not on a peaked cap badge. But the bend over prongs are characteristic of both the eagle and the Chaplains badge worn on the officers / chaplains cap badge.

 
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Gerry
(Login NightReaper)
Forum Member
86.134.203.85

Sounds good

May 28 2008, 2:18 PM 

Hi Alex - I agree with the first one. As for the second, I've also never seen a left facing eagle on a cap badge and I originally thought it might be from a post war Master Aircrew badge - but I've only ever seen them with lugs. I also think you're on the right lines with the third one - will continue investigating. Thanks for your help. Gerry

 
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Alex
(Login gate1)
Forum Member
91.106.18.14

Badges

May 28 2008, 5:38 PM 

Hi Gerry

Yes you could be right about the Master aircrew badge, ive not seen that many as I dont collect post war myself. There is always the possibility of an 'oddity' such as a British made badge (Firmin for example) for one of the many foreign air forces, say the Hong Kong or Indian, even just post war, as the eagle is a common emblem.

 
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Anonymous
(Login FltEng156)
Forum Member
81.158.4.149

Re: Badges

May 28 2008, 7:36 PM 

The modern day No 1 dress, Master Aircrewman cuff rank badges do have the same sized eagles as the peaked cap. They face both left and right on each sleeve respectively.

Danny

 
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Alex
(Login gate1)
Forum Member
91.106.18.14

Eagles and badges

May 29 2008, 6:53 AM 

Thats true Danny, the difference being that the modern are anodised aluminium ('staybrite') although the same in brass were worn earlier on.

But when we see badges such as the eagle especially, its easy to forget they they are and were worn by numerous air forces around the world. So even an eagle or some other badge that might be marked 'Firmin' or 'Gaunt' for example, might be for one of a number of air forces such as Indian, Pakistan, Hong Kong etc etc, as british companies supplied them. Sometimes it was just post war, and especially so when it doesnt seem to fit an RAF pattern. There are dozens of RAF like badges out there, but made for these foreign air forces, and sometimes unique to them.

I have an eagle and crown which were originally an officers side cap badge but the eagle faces the wrong way. But they have been soldered together and had a long large pin added so it could be worn in a turban. No such badge existed originally, and it was first mocked up by one of the pilots who came over from India in 1940. He insisted on wearing a turban, even when flying. No doubt such badges, especially in the Indian Air Force probably became standard after a period.

 
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Steve Cobden
(Login stevecobden)
Forum Member
217.43.86.177

Wrong facing eagle

May 29 2008, 7:15 AM 

The other possibility, albeit unlikely due to incredible scarcity, is RNAS gulls, which both faced the same direction on each sleeve above the rank insignia prior to 1917, and were guilt as opposed to brass

 
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Alex
(Login gate1)
Forum Member
91.104.48.132

odds and sods

May 29 2008, 7:51 AM 

The RNAS eagles are usually identifiable by having three screw posts on the reverse (an easy way to identify them against 'normal' eagles if you find them).

But others such as nurses of the Volunteer Aid Detachment (VAD) seconded to the RAF, and even civilian doormen at Air Ministry HQ in London wore facing pairs of eagles on their uniform collars, the latter wearing a double breasted jacket in dark blue, similar to a naval style. those eagles were either screw post or twin lugs and split pin (I have a VAD eagle with screw posts). The eagle on its own had so many uses, including the different fixings that there is no single definitive use.

Have a look at this lot on ebay gerry, it contains a badge similar to yours but better made http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Royal-Flayng-Corps-R-A-F-and-A-T-C-cap-badges_W0QQitemZ120266220134QQihZ002QQcategoryZ69686QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Its the type of thing that could be a musicians pouch badge for example, the one in the ebay lot being, say, Firmin made for the RAF, yours being a similar theatre made version.

 
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