Yes...Carson came to me with another issue and I need a little advice. Dan's out at a friend's right now and I haven't run this one by him yet, so here goes.

About two months ago, Carson spent the night at a friend's. There was another girl there she is friends with, but as what usually happens when there's three, Carson came home feeling a little left out. She said at one point, the other two girls were locked in the bedroom and wouldn't let her in, but she remained good friends with both girls the rest of the school year and I forgot about it.

This morning, she came to me and told me that the girls kissed each other in front of her. They made her count to thirty while they kissed and even though she was "completely grossed out", she counted. I gave her a kiss and asked her if they kissed like that and she said yes, just for longer. And specified it wasn't like teenagers kiss in the movies or on TV with their mouths open which is "totally gross". They also decided to explain to Carson what "humping" is. And then, while clothed, decided to give her a demonstration.

Carson knows what sex is. She knows the difference between kisses I give her and kisses people in love give each other. She also knows that sometimes, WHEN YOU'RE OLDER, you may decide to kiss another girl or that a boy may decide he prefers kissing other boys. Her problem with the whole thing is that both of these girls know she's really sensitive and shy about this stuff and she's more upset that they wouldn't take her feelings into consideration before doing this stuff in front of her.

MY problem with the whole thing is that this seems more than just your standard "playing Doctor" behavior. If Carson was involved in doing this stuff with her friends, I'd be really worried. It seems awfully sexual for a bunch of eight-almost-nine-year-olds.

Am I overreacting? I don't WANT to call either parent AT ALL but if it were Carson, I'd like to sit her down and have a long talk wiht her about what is and isn't appropriate at her age. So I'm wondering....do I extend the same courtesy to the other moms? And then risk Carson being ostracized for being a tattletale, a prude, and a troublemaker?

I think it's great that Carson is so open with you.

I have no advice, however.

I'd call the other moms and tell them what is going on,I'm sure they have no idea.

Carson doesn't need friends that would tease her and such.

They can't be much of a friend if they do.

Maybe ask Carson if she thinks calling the other moms is a bad thing for you to do.

...that this is modern-day playing doctor. I'd also say that these girls are probably in need of a reality check and that you should probably have a chat with thier mothers. The ostricization thing troubles me, as it obviously does you. I feel that in time Carson will see that what you did was the smart thing, but you will suffer her sorrow in the meantime.

I thank the flying spaghetti monster that this kind of thing is at least 4ish years in my future.

eta: Are you social with the parents? Friendly? Will they take it well, or will they think of you as a buttinski? If you will be percieved as a buttinski, don't bother. It will make no difference.

eta again: The Wife says the inconsiderate part is typical girl behaivior. When there's three, one will always be separated and ridiculed. Girls are wierd like that. She has 3 younger sisters. Since Carson is sensetive about that kind of thing, they were probably doing it to shock her for their entertainment.

The Wife says you should talk to the moms. The girls are pushing boundaries and need to be set straight.

I am

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't call.

I can't know for sure but it sounds to me like the mean spiritedness is perceived by Carson rather than intended by the girls. I'd stick with giving her some better tools for dealing with situations that make her uncomfortable (Leave the room, being able to explain why she doesn't want to, call and ask to come home) rather than teach her to be a victim, and that talking about something that makes you uncomfortable leads to bad things, like your friends hating you for being a snitch. What's going to happen if, God forbid, something serious happens on this front - not with some of her little friends closed mouth kissing but with an adult and really is inappropriate, and all she learned was "when you tell about this, people get mad at you".

Besides the fact, I don't really think it's so wildly inappropriate for a 9 year old to be curious, if they touched carson or there was nakedness involved I guess I would be worried, but I guess everyone has a different idea of what's over the line.

I agree with Marney's wife and Caps.

Ginny makes a good point about "snitching" although I hate that term. The lesson she might learn is that if she talks people don't like her, but that may be a risk you have to take.

Unrelated note: I had a woman at work say that "There are a bunch of other people (doing what I did that I should not have) why don't you bust them?" I asked her "Who? Point them out and I'll tell them to (do what they should)" Her reply: "There ain't a drop of snitch blood in me?" I just wanted to ask her "Well, why did you fucking bother to mention it?" but that would have been unprofessional.

This whole "anti-snitch" culture thing bothers the living shit out of me.

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I don't think it's right to let other people's opinion of you dictate how you live your life, but in this case I just don't see the benefit, even in a best case scenario, justifying it.

But, do what feels right to you Kathleen. It's not like there's a right or wrong answer here, it's all gray area anyway.

There is always the infinitesimal chance that one or both of these girls learned this from someone older who doesn't have the best of intentions toward them. No, I don't want to be that guy who immediately goes to sexual abuse, but the possibility is there.
I would speak to the parents. "I just wanted to let you know that Carson told me that this happened. I was a little concerned with where they got this from, because it doesn't seem to be usual behavior for little X". Then the parents know what happened, but it's not put there as a "How could your demon kid mess with my darling!", but as "Your kid is usually so great, I'm worried about her".

We are relatively friendly with both sets of parents. In fact, the other sleepover guest's parents threw a housewarming party last night at their new place and we had a great time. Said girl was with her biological father for the weekend, so we didn't see her, but the girls had a lot of fun. They're very very nice. And the mom is the woman who offered me her part time job since she has moved.

The host girl's parents are very nice. They belong to the same pool as us. We've had some trouble with this girl in the past...she's the one who relentlessly teasted Carson about her school lunch choices, causing Carson to go on a semi-first-grade diet. When I asked the mom about it, she insisted her daughter knows never to use the word "fat" and that she would never do such a thing.

I'm still on the fence. Part of me thinks I'm overreacting about the kissing part but the "humping" part bugs the crap out of me. Both girls have step-siblings who are older and who sometimes live with them so I suppose this is where the "info" could have come from.

I debated whether or not to put my name on this, but here goes.

When I was in elementary school, grade 6, I had one friend who didn't have a lot of parental supervision in her life.

Even at school it had become the thing to do to kiss other girls, but with your hands in between the lips. When I would go over to my friend's house, she would try to persuade me to kiss without the hands, and I'm sure I did once or twice.

Then at sleepovers there came the humping. Which sounds terrible, but it was always clothed, and no one really had any actual idea what they were doing. I didn't like it, at all, so, I stopped sleeping over at people's houses. I never told my parents, so they didn't understand why I no longer wanted to go to sleepovers, I think my mom confessed years later that she was actually very worried about me.

Anyway, to me, the actions don't seem that shocking. If you call the parents, I don't know that it would make them stop doing the behaviour, it may just make them hide it more.

Honestly the "info" could have come from anywhere. Tv, music videos... hell, I remember finding my parent's "Joy of Sex" books, and showing them to my friends.

She's told you about it, give her options on how to deal with it, and see what she wants to do. Is it worth it to lose friends when one can also choose just to remove themselve from the situation. She's going to be in situations in the future where people are drinking or smoking pot, and rather than necessarily ratting them out, turning them in, whatever maybe she just needs to learn how to seperate herself from the action, and feel as though she's doing the right thing for herself.

But it's possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. Really I just thought I'd share that the actions really aren't all that shocking, and that's not even retelling what I know about my nieces too.

Charlotte is never leaving the house again.

Not really, but damn. Damn, damn, damn.

There are no easy decisions in parenting.

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That's pretty much how I feel too, Aurora.

Let me just add one more thing - my mom was a "fixer" too. If I complained about a teacher or the other kids in my class, she would yank me out and put me in another one, or talk with the principal, or cause some kind of drama. There came a point where I just had to stop telling her things, because I knew she would want to DO something and it's not always the answer to try and "fix" everything. Sometimes you just need to talk. I would hate for Carson to feel like she couldn't talk to you. Maybe she just wants help sorting out her feelings and how to deal with the situation.

Hannah went through a toned down version of this during the school year. My response was to teach her to assert herself (she certainly has the ability, as evidenced by her behavior at home) and let the girl know that she was not comfortable with something (her own words in describing the situation) or that what the girl said/did hurt her feelings. I also told her it was okay to go to the girl's parent (when she was on away playdates) and tell them when their child was doing something she thought was not right. If you "snitch" immediately, it has less impact than holding it in -- it's a concept kids are more familiar with, or should be: action = consequence. With the bonus of "I'm not taking crap from you."

Unfortunately, another thing I've learned is that there are a lot of the said/she said things going on with kids that age, and you never get the full story until all the kids and moms/dads are sitting together discussing it calmly and casually together.

You can look at this from a million angles, and there's positives in all of them. Go with your gut. You've done really well so far.

The old "if you don't stop, I'm going to tell" is pretty effective too. Can't say I didn't warn ya.

Learning to deal with these types of situations not only teaches kids how to "do what is right" but also how to compose themselves. In some situations - starting to cry, banging your fists, running away and telling on someone can quite literally get you killed.

I will refrain from sharing my example, (as to not derail the thread,) but knowing when not to scream "HELP!" but instead work your way out of a situation very calmly and with very few sudden movements is a skill not many people, let alone children, have.

Carson has already taken the initiative to come to your for council - so she's clearly on the right path. This particular situation doesn't sound like it is putting her in imminent danger, and I would use that to the advantage of both you and your daughter. Give her a shot to problem solve on her own, address the situation, and come out on top as a result of her own choices.

You can always call the parents and do the work for her, but you can't the phone call back after you've done it. Learning to rely on your parents to solve everything for you is dangerous. Learning to rely on your parents to help you understand problems and solve them in the best way possible is a gift.

Thanks, everyone, seriously. I was very upset when she told me this but I've calmed down considerably.

I don't want to veto future sleepovers, but I may be quick to remind Carson what happened at this last one and ask her what she'll do if anything close to this happens again. Maybe help her formulate a plan, even if it means calling me at eleven at night to come get her. I'd do it.

Carson can be extremely bossy at home. She's the oldest; I guess it's to be expected. Among her peers, she's really not and I've noticed a tendency in her to be a people-pleaser and go along with what others are doing. In this situation, she swears she didn't participate other than the counting. It made her really uncomfortable but she did it anyway, not wanting to make waves.

And you're right about not being able to take the phone call back should I choose to make it. it could absolutely cause more problems for her, for me, for everyone involved. And i don't think it's necessary so long as it doesn't progress past what's already happened.

I am late to the party here, but I am glad you decided how to deal with it Kath, and I am with Ginny and Aurora.

This issues, in various forms, will repeat itself almost weekly as she progresses in age. Frustrating for sure, confusing to the kids and relentless. Arming Carson with the tools to say that she doesn't like something is the best route. Letting her gain confidence in sometimes choosing the unpopular decision.

Having a parent intervene, in less than dire situations, only sets things up for future failure. Carson will then rely on you to fix everything and not know what to do and feel insecure in so many instances.

She needs to stand up for herself and be heard.
Role playing is an awesome way to do this. She might feel weird with this for a moment, but it really does work. Try it when it is just the two of you. This works in so many ways-- name calling, bullying, feeling insecure, an unwanted touch or hug....

I could give a dozen examples of things that have gone on with Linds that made me get to that way of thinking.

The more they grow up, the more experiences they will have, more places they will go and they will be less supervised. They need the tools to feel like they can handle stuff on their own.