My Aunt and Uncle have a beautiful vacation home. Two years ago they asked my sister and her children to be their guests while they were there with my cousin and her children. My sister is a good and loving mother but has a very lax view of discipline. She often laughs things off, she allows her children to help themselves, and frequently consults them. After her stay my aunt and uncle told many stories of her "lax" parenting style, laughing it off.
However, my Aunt and Uncle has not asked my sister back to their vacation home. Last year they invited me to use it when it was empty. When I told them I'd love to, but if my sister got wind of it, she would come too, I couldn't stop her, they asked me to choose a week when I knew she couldn't come. I did, and didn't mention that to my sister at all, just acted "bummed".
This year my cousin invited my sister and her kids to join her in her parent's vacation house. Her parents wont be there, but when she mentioned it my uncle flatly refused. Told my cousin that she could not have my sister and kids with her.
Of course my cousin had to tell my sis it was a no go. My sister is hurt and confused and she really doesn't know why. I feel I should tell her, but everyone else thinks I should mind my own business.
They didn't cause damage, but they do things like go into people's bedrooms and come out wearing shoes or playing with tennis racquets or wearing jewelery. They go into places where they don't belong.
Take every possible sand toy to the beach and shrug it off when it's time to clean up and return them... so a full set might now have missing shovels, etc. My sis will shrug "oh well, it's a $20 set". My thoughts are, it isn't her $20 set, so she make sure all the parts are returned or just allow the kids to take one bucket and one shovel each and make them responsible for it.
Allow them to help themselves to food and drink which they'll eat where ever then walk around with sticky hands until someone catches them. And they'll do things like fill a glass of milk to the tippy top so you have to take a gulp before you can even lift it, drink half, and throw the rest away.
They'll take over the TV and insist on watching cartoons while adults are watching the news or whatever. And if an adult gets up from the couch or chair and the kids will get off the floor and steal the adults seat. My sis thinks thats funny.
They'll run through the halls and have elevator races. And I suppose that's fine if you're in a rental property, but this is a second home for my aunt and uncle and they live there at least half the year.
Personally, I wouldn't tell her. It's your uncle's house, your uncle's issue with her, and your uncle's decision not to allow her to vacation there. If asked, I'd say I didn't really know....that she should ask him. I know honesty is usually the best policy, but in this case, hurt feelings are sure to result.
Your sister sounds alot like my sister (whose kids are older now - oldest 20, youngest 14). Anything my parents had in place for us discipline-wise - curfews, no swearing, etc. - she pretty much did away with for her own kids. She kind of wants to be the "cool mom" and if that means letting her sixteen-year-old (at the time) son's girlfriend move in, so be it.
My brother hasn't bothered inviting my sister and her family to his kids' birthday parties in a couple of years (mainly because his kids are 5 and 3, and they don't really need to hear all the swearing because "Mom doesn't care if we use curse words!"). My sister asked me if I knew why she hadn't gotten an invitation this past week. I mentioned that he wasn't comfortable with how her kids speak sometimes, especially around really young kids. Her basic response was "Well that's stupid. They're going to hear it sometime anyway."
So... if you tell her, be prepared for her to completely disregard anything you have to say.
I'd say it depends on your relationship with your sister. I have one sister that I could tell, "hey, your kids are being bratty again" and she'll roll her eyes at me and tell them to knock it off - but take it in stride. I have another that I know the subject is 100% off limits because she goes mental if anyone criticizes "her baby." If you're not that close, I'd say just tell her you have no idea and let the uncle handle it.
I tell her all the time I disagree with her parenting style, especially when it's in my house. I have no qualms about saying "In my house you'll ask before you climb up on counter tops and get down wine glasses to fill with milk." She'll either ignore me, yell at her kids, or roll her eyes which ever suits her mood.
But I think hearing that OTHER people think her style is too lax would hurt her.
I'm extremely close to her and the kids. At least once a week one of the kids sleep over and we often take trips together. I talk to her everyday, and usually the kids every day too.
My parents rent a house at the beach every year for a month. We (me and my siblings and our families) are welcome to come whenever and for as long as we want to stay. My sister and I have very different parenting styles and it has caused major tension in the past.
I don't make my kids eat every single thing on their plate....when they say they're full, they take their plate out to the kitchen and they can go play, which can cause an issue if her kids are still sitting at the table, crying, because they're not done. And this is three meals a day.
It takes me about a half hour to get ready to leave for the beach and it takes her longer. So every day, we leave without her and sometimes get bitched at for choosing where we've chosen to sit for the day when she gets there.
I am the only one who brings a supply of plastic bowls, as well as plastic cups with lids and straws so the kids don't spill. There are never any clean, because she writes their name on a piece of tape, sticks it to the cup, and puts it in the fridge. Even if there's less than an inch of liquid left at the bottom. Argh.
This is not criticism of your parenting style .. it's an honest question....
My sis's kids do that too, when they're finished eating, they say "I'm full" and my sis says "Ok, put your dish in the sink" and thats that.
I've never said anything, but when do you (and she) intend on teaching your kids that it's rude to leave the table before everyone is done? (Or at least until all the kids are done).
I cringe at the thought that my niece or nephew will be at a business dinner or meeting their future in-laws and gulp down dinner so they can run away from the table to be the first to play video games
Edit to fix errors
This message has been edited by Appalled on Jul 22, 2009 11:02 AM
I understand that kids will be kids, but the part that gets me (and others) is that my sis just laughs it off, thinks it's funny or ignores it. And I'm close enough or obnoxious enough to say "Your children are standing on my furniture!" or "You kids stay down stairs where you belong!" or "if you open that banana you better eat every bite".
Well it's my business because my sister talks to me about it and I know the answer and I'm not telling her.
I dont think I have control issues, I think I have a right to not have other people's kids pawing through my closet or helping themselves to things in my kitchen, don't you?
I never thought of it that way. I think I was more focused on the possible issue with food arising....if you're full, you're full. Even as a child, I don't think you shouldn't be forced to "clean your plate".
Honestly, the table at the house isn't big enough for everyone, so the kids usually sit on pillows around the huge square coffee table; sometimes the TV is on, sometimes not. When they're done, I let them go read a book or sit outside and look for deer or color. I guess I'd rather eat in peace and not have them calling to me every five minutes, "Can I get up?" "Mommy, I don't want anymore!" "Can I get up?" Which sounds selfish now that I've typed it out.
At home it's a little different. The kids have usually eaten by the time Dan gets home from work. (between six thirty and seven) Sometimes they'll eat dessert with us while we're having dinner, or just sit with us and talk about their day. I guess they're on their best behavior, table manners-wise, when we go out to eat....they CAN'T get up there!
You have a close relationship with your sister and her children. I have nieces, so for me, I want people to enjoy them as much as I do. To love them like I do. That kind of behavior that your sister allows endears them to no one. What kind of undisciplined people will they grow up to be? Will they just one day wake up and change their behavior? I don't think so. Sometimes it does take a village.
I would tell her to take it up with the Uncle as well, Appalled. But if pressed by her for more information, I would tell her that the way she allows her children to behave seriously puts a cramp in the experience for all of the adults. Children deserve to be enjoyed and these little ones don't have the tools or support to make that happen.
I'm sure my uncle won't say "You're too lax with your kids", and besides I don't think my sister would ever ask him. "Why wont you let me go to your beach house?", it's just too rude.
I do agree with you Anny, they're beautiful children and I feel sorry for them when they do something their mother would think is funny and no one laughs or is charmed. They're so puzzled, like "What did we do wrong?".
I know like many here, my sister just rolls her eyes at me and thinks "Appy's a control freak, what does she know about kids, she should mind her own business" but I do love her and the kids and feel like she's doing them a disservice.
She is doing them a disservice Appalled. The behavior you describe could easily be channeled into something more positive and corrected all together. It is a shame that the children do not get the loving guidance they need so that they can participate in wonderful opportunities like a beach house.
Right! Thanks Anny, thats how I feel. I know my sister loves her kids, and I feel like if I tell her, maybe she'll correct them more often and then they'll learn to be good and welcome guests.
But then again, you cant control the way people behave. And she just may say "If thats the way Uncle feels, he can just keep his beach house, who needs it?".
If it turns ugly, do you want to be the one in the middle? I sure wouldn't. And if she already shrugs or laughs off your advice, you being involved in telling her what other relatives feel may make her less inclined to take their advice, too.
She does sound like she needs some parenting advice, though. I wouldn't let those kids near my palce from your description, though I'm sure they are positively delightful little heathens
It is this type of lax parenting that is turning our children into self centered individuals with disregard for those around them. And its not their fault; its how they are being raised. I actually feel sorry for them but would not want them round or any extended length of time either. This is turning into an its all about me & an instant gratification society. It is not the relatives job to tolerate ill behaved kids. It is the parents responsibility to teach manners, limits and respect for other peoples feelings and belongings.
It sounds to me like you are close enough to say something. It would probably be less hurtful to hear coming from someone who is already accepting of her children. Perhaps this is the wake up call your sister needs. If she begins to realize that their behavior is so socially unacceptable that it I alienating even family and limiting their options in life, she may not laugh things off so easily in the future. She is hurt whether you tell her or not. If you tell her then it will be become something she has the power to change. If she doesnt change she will at least be aware that there may be negative consequences to her choices.
That being said; most parents think their children are the exception and cant see them as others might. And, most people do not change easily.
Change yourself, change your fortunes.
- Portuguese Proverb
I wish Appy was my mom when I was growing up. I'd probably turn out well-rounded and thoughtful with the ability to cook and also have all the Call of Duty skills I'd need to succeed in life. My chances of being right would likely be dramatically higher as well.
Appy, Your sister is an idiot, but your uncle sounds like kind of an asshole. Seriously, who wouldn't want their grand nieces and nephews around? Why doesn't he just sack up and say something like "your kids need to obey my rules when they're in my house"?
My sister has a similar philosophy. She's not as bad, but her kids can be on the feral side. They all live out in the boonies, with a bunch of animals and their house is a wreck. But I have no problem laying down the rules when they visit. It makes for a much more pleasant time when they know how they're supposed to behave.
Am I really so old that young men fantasize about me being their MOTHER?
Dear God, kill me now.
Uncle is an a-hole, but he's an a-hole with a nice beach house.
I dont think my sister is an idiot, I think her husband is an idiot and doesn't help her parent so she's stuck being both soft mother and hard father and she doesn't like or isnt able to be hard.
I dunno, Appy. The way you described your sister doesn't make it sound like she's torn between being her own good cop/bad cop. Laughing off truly obnoxious behavior like going into someone's room and putting on their jewelry (holy god I would freak) is beyond lazy. It's detrimental to everyone especially the kids. Just look at the stress multiple people are feeling over these kids being terrors some of the time.
Personally, if I were as close to my sibling as you are to your sister I would tell her the whole story. Although, you mentioning she'd show up at the beach house without being invited makes me think it wouldn't matter what you told her. She won't care.
No one can say anything to my brother for being a shitty father. He'll get a full dose soon enough from his kid who's now referring to him as lame.
So am I angry because I think people who let their kids run amok are idiots? Or am I angry that I think an uncle who is too much of a pussy to lay down rules in his own house, and instead bans part of his family from his vacation home, is an asshole? I just want to be clear on this.
I'm often embarrassed by the way my niece and nephew act. If I take them anywhere I sit in the car with them before we go in and tell them how I expect them to act. When I do that, they act much better. They're always worse when their parents are around anyway.
My sister is my best friend, and it's hard to think poorly of her.
ETA: What does opinions to eleven mean??
This message has been edited by Appalled on Jul 22, 2009 3:33 PM
Of course. It must be a constant source of stress for you. I love my best friend like crazy but she is the worst parent. I hate being around her and her kids, who have their good moments, but she handles most thing so poorly. And who wants to be the big, bad dictator to guests in their home? It's not fun spending your time threatening kids who should be taught what to and not to do.
And deprogramming my neice on our vacation last month didn't work because despite my mother's complaints about my brother she does the same things. Indulge, indulge, indulge, brownies for breakfast, giving in, etc. Luckily my niece is fairly well behaved, she's just spoiled and doesn't understand you don't boss adults around. I feel bad for her, though. She's missing a ton of life skills a 12 year-old should have by now.
Well you can tell yourself that you don't think poorly of her, but your story of how she lets her kids behave and accepts her zombie of a husband, speaks volumes to the contrary. Maybe she's not an idiot, but she sure is BEING one.
If I can play armchair psychologist for a second, it sounds like part of what she's doing is attempting to send a message to Mr. sperm donor that he needs to contribute.
My wife insists that our 4 year old clean her plate. I personally don't think she should have to. I go along with it to please my wife . . . but really I could care less if she doesn't eat everything. It usually ends up being me sitting with my daughter playing choo choo train to get her to eat all of her whatever. I feel that she should eat enough to make her full and that it is important for her to eat veggies of course. However I don't think she should be required to eat every last scrap.
When I was a boy my father forced me to sit at the table and eat all the roast beef. It was marbled with fat and as it got cold it got really gross. I barely could force it down between catching my breath from crying so hard.
I hated that experience. My father says I exagerate . . . but I still remember to this day . . . and I still don't like roast beef marbled in fat. Sitting on my chair forcing it down didn't make me enjoy it or see the sense in finishing everything on my plate.
I don't want to get into an argument with my wife over it. I see it as a compromise. Also, if there were more than one approach to the issue in the house my daughter would complain to my wife that she doesn't have to eat everything because Daddy says she doesn't.
Yeah, something that could prove to be detrimental to the health of your child is absolutely not something you want to get in an argument with your wife about.
OK. I absolutely vehemently disagree with making a child clean his/her plate. I was raised this way and it sucked.
Yes, teach the child to eat until full. Better yet, teach the child to take portions they can finish (I realize Azusa your daughter is only 4 but I bet she can help judge the amount).
When your daughter's obese in a few years, will you blame your wife? You can't learn to stop eating when you're full if you're forced to eat everything dished out to you. It also discourages kids from trying new things because if they don't like it they still have to eat all of it. Better to hedge bets and stick with chicken fingers.
You don't have to take anonybupkiss' word for it. A quick google search would provide mountains of evidence why the clean plate club is not a good thing.
Our compromise between the 'don't overfeed your kids' and 'don't waste food' POVs:
If you've never had something before and think you won't like it, try one bite. If you don't like it, you don't have to eat anymore of it.
If you do like it, take only what you think you can eat. You can always go back for seconds (and thirds and fourths and one child has been known to go for fifths).
If you take more than you can eat (because Dog forbid your brother might get more than you), you don't have to finish it now if you're full. But you will wrap it up properly and eat it later or tomorrow.
Be full by 9 p.m. or go to bed hungry. No you may NOT stay up late because you said at dinnertime you weren't hungry. (Exceptions are made when appropriate to this rule -- I just don't let them use "but I'm still hungry!" as an excuse to stay up late).
It's by no means perfect, but I'm the only chubby one at home and there are rarely leftovers to throw out.
(We won't talk about food that had to be thrown out because a certain someone didn't cook it like she was planning to. Because that has nothing to do with the kids. )
I wouldn't say anything. A similar situation happened to me a while back. I got caught in a triangle between Diana Ross and Liz Taylor. Not a pretty place to be. It's better to stay out of it.
You know it's the generation of constant praise. Everything thing every kid does gets praised. My very athletic niece broke her arm at the start of t-ball season, she only played one game.
Weeks later I asked her where she was off to... "To pick up my t-ball trophy"
"Your trophy??? You played one game!"
"Everyone gets one Aunt Appy!"
At the grocery store the other day I heard a mother say "good burp" to her baby. GOOD BURP?!
When she's being removed from the house with a crane and a wrecking crew live on Jerry Springer, will you realize then what a HUGE mistake you're making!
I suppose my wife isn't quite as intransigent as I make her out to be. Perhaps I am tending to conflate my childhood experience with my current experience as a father. If it got to the point where my daughter was crying her eyes out over having to eat something I would not insist on her eating it. I know my wife wouldn't either.
As for some of the comments here . . . I agree with Mev. Pretty over the top.
I hope I didn't offend Azusa. I think the "Take what you want, eat what you take" plan is a good one for kids that can serve themselves. I had just read a fair bit about creating good food habits and wanted to point you to that.
I'm sure you guys are great parents - I did not mean to impune that in any way - if you took what I said that way, my apologies.
Even so... and not taking anything over the top... I have to say that the "clean your plate" mentality was taught to me from parents of and grandparents who experienced the depression era. Now, yeah. Does that make sense? Sure it does! Be thankful that you actually have something to eat, eat what you have - who knows when the next meal will come or what it will be! I get it.
But every mantra, every rule has its time and place. I firmly, solidly believe that "clean your plate" (in 2009 USA) has, for the most part, run its course of usefulness. I FIRMLY subscribe to "take what you can finish", "try a bite of this new thing and it's cool if you don't like it", and most importantly "Understand/feel when your body is full".
Does it work for everyone? NO. duh. But is it a good tool for a kid? absolutely.
I agree with everyone who dislikes the Clean Plate Club. My little sister would get so worked up and cry SO hard at the table, that she would barf on her own plate. That was really the only way she ever got to leave the table with food still on her plate, but it always ended in more yelling. Dinnertime was always really stressful and I wouldn't put a child through that, personally.
I always ate like a bird. Yelling at me never really worked. My dad once threatened to put my stuffed Fraggles in the microwave if I didn't clean my plate. That didn't work either. Hehe.
I don't give a shite 'cause I got my Guinness Stout!
give the kids plenty of healthy choices and let them decide what and how much to eat.
Enforcing eating rules and finishing your plate rules sets the child up for many years of eating battles and eating issues in later life.
Letting them choose gives them a) a feeling of control b) a willingness coming from themselves to try new foods c) that they are eating to fill their own hunger needs and not just to please someone else.
Seriously, little snacks here and there, milk, juice and Cheerios fill in the gaps. Her health will be fine if her plate still has something on it.
If I ever gave Linds a new food to try and she balked a bit due to appearance or texture, the rule was 'one bite'. If she really hated it, she didn't have to eat any more of it. This really worked well and she now eats a lot of really different foods and likes them, because it was her choice.
You said your sister is hurt and confused yet won't ask your uncle and aunt why she can't come and stay with them because it's rude? I wouldn't call it rude but I can understand that it would be awkward. How else can she get the reason tho? How else can they have an honest conversation?
You can't continue going to your uncle's vacation home, for the rest of your life, during the times your sister is not available so let's just go with the idea that you are the only person she feels comfortable talking to about this and that you want to help her.
You might want to tell your sister what you told us here, especially the invasion of privacy aspects, in a calm and supportive way and then say that it's her choice as to how she wants to address it.
If she thinks they are over-reacting and doesn't care about being allowed back then that's her choice. Problem solved. What else is there to do? You go when you can and she stays home. Simple.
After laying it all out, I wouldn't address any future complaints she has about it. She knows what she has to do to change things. If she wants advice from you, fine, but if she wants to harp on it until you take her side, don't allow that. At that point you have done all you can.
Only a frank discussion between her and them and a promise (and evidence) that her children will behave better the next time they are there will go towards solving the problem. That's going to take a lot of work on her part. She needs to decide if she wants to do that. My guess is she won't.
I would be curious to hear what's happening with this in a couple of months. To see if anything has changed.
I hate being stuck in the middle of family dramas. Especially between adults who refuse to communicate with each other. You have my sympathy.
I guess if sister asked me, I would gently remind her of something specific that she allowed her children to do at Uncle's house that was clearly not okay, and then suggest that she ask him if that was an issue. "Remember how Chip and Buffy re-enacted key scenes from "Lord of the Flies" using Uncle's Pekingese as the pig, and you snorted Hendrick's out your nose when he suggested that you pay the vet bill? He might still be upset, but maybe you should ask him". That way, you're just translating for somebody that doesn't understand civilizese and she hopefully won't get defensive with you for just reporting what you witnessed.
Anny, I think that's a very good insight about clean plates.
There's always the chance you'll end up with the opposite of a picky eater, a kid like me who was more than happy to eat everything put in front of her, and will have to train themselves to not overeat as an adult.
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