With all the love of controversy here lately, I'm surprised there's not been a thread yet.
So - here goes - should NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell allow convicted Dog ring perpetrator Michael Vick to return to football now that he's served his sentence according to the law?
I lean yes, but I'm not fully decided. The "He's paid his debt to society" is in conflict with "He watched trained killer dogs shred house pets for fun."
Unless the NFL has a policy of not allowing convicted felons to play, yes, he should be allowed.
Whether or not any team would risk having him is a different thing altogether.
If Vick ended up playing for your favorite team, would you still support them?
I'm guessing most people would.
He's an asshole, and an evil, EVIL person, but that has nothing to do with the game of football.
He's paid his debt, (evidently since I don't follow this story) so just like in any other career he should be allowed to go back to work.
If I were a GM I wouldn't want him on my team cause I wouldn't want kids looking up to that, or people to think that I condone what he did. But I don't think he should be precluded from working in his chosen feild b/c of it.
I'm pretty sure employers can descriminate on the basis of an applicant having been convicted of a felony.
I think he should have the right to work. But the NFL has the right to say he can't work for them. And they should say they don't want anything to do with him. There is no way that decision will haunt them.
I agree with you 100% Caps - he has no 'right' to work for anyone.
To me this is about whether redemption is possible, if there is something he could say to demonstrate that change has occurred.
Check out these contrasting opinions:
"It looks like Vick will play in the NFL this season, but only because the capricious spinning dial of nature awarded him quick feet, and because Commissioner Roger Goodell will give him a reprieve from indefinite suspension. What should hopefully be plain to Vick, as he awaits Goodell's final decision, is that he is helpless and utterly reliant on people more powerful than he. He must rely on them for his food, and his shelter. He must trust that they will do him good, rather than harm. In that sense, he's no better than a dog. So. How does it feel, Mike?"
"....If the violence of the NFL has any ennobling purpose to it, if it's good for anything other than cruel spectacle, it's that the game explores a moral balance, the fragile line between sport and meanness. A humane restraint, the desire to compete without hurting, is an essential component and the only reason we say the game can bring out the best in people. Otherwise all that's left is bloodlust. "
"Some people think that what Vick did was so bad that he should not be allowed to play professional football again. Others think that Vick has been punished and deserves another chance. This is not an easy question, because playing in the NFL is a privilege and not a right. But I think Vick should be allowed to play.
"...No one can look inside someone's heart to see if he has really changed. Maybe Vick is still the kind of cruel person who would hurt a trusting animal. But I think he should be given another chance to show everyone he has changed. And we should all believe and hope that he can. "
I'm gonna continue to straddle here. I'm not sure. I hear the folks loudly and clearly that associating with this won't necessarily play as embracing redemption for the NFL, and is more likely to ecourage cynics who will shout that it's separater rules for athletes no matter what in a brutal sport.
Though, given a convincing conversation with Vick, isn't it at times when the risk is highest to ones own standing when the greatest mangnanimity of human forgiveness is demonstrated?
In response to the Washington Post comment, "I think he should be given another chance to show everyone he has changed," I think the author of that has a warped sense of what being given another chance means.
(And to avoid any confusion, I know Squid isn't the author.)
Vick wasn't in jail because, "oops, you mean those MP3s weren't legal?" he was in jail because he committed a really violent crime. If this had happened to anyone who wasn't a celebrity professional athlete, even if they were wealthy, even if they had - their second chance after running a dog fighting ring would working minimum wage jobs under the suspicious eye of a boss receiving a tax credit for hiring an ex-con.
Whether or not our treatment of ex-cons is fair isn't my point. My point is that the only reason anyone is talking about "redemption" is because he brings the NFL money and they're trying to figure if bringing him back will net them more money than it'll cost them.
If he'd been some schmo who couldn't throw a ball, his name would have already been forgotten.
This message has been edited by Syrgot on Jul 26, 2009 4:31 PM
I think people want the impossible out of Vick. They want him to feel sorry about what he did not because he got busted for it, but because he feels bad for the dogs.
It was a business of his for five years. He does not feel bad about it.
If it disgusted him and made him sick to his stomache to hold a dog underwater until it drowned, he wouldn't have done it in the first place.
IMHO if empathy is what you require, redemption is not possible for Vick.
Bear in mind too that dog fighting wasn't even illegal in most parts of the country until the mid 1980's
Not everyone sees his crime as unforgivable.
He'll never be able to make it back. If he was a running back or something then probably. But no team is taking a quarterback that can get people picketing the stadium. He's done.
I don't think Vick necessarily got off easy, relative to non clebs. Animal cruelty isn't punished nearly as harsh as a lot of people would like. I've never heard of anyone serving more than a couple of years for animal cruelty.
Plus, as an omnivore, I am perfectly cognizant that some of the meat that I eat, comes from environments not much better (and some probably worse) than those of Vick's dogs. Yet I eat meat anyway. Now of course Vick wasn't killing the dogs for food and that's a huge distinction. But millions of animals are treated cruelly every day, for a variety of reasons and no one bats an eye about it.
But this kind of brings up a different question: How long do felons have to pay for their crimes, after they've served their sentences and parole? If they're labeled as pariahs for the rest of their lives, what opportunities, other than more crime, is afforded to them?
GAH Smirk. Ive been looking for that outfit forEVER!
I vote no. But, unfortunately I dont really get a vote. I think he has not paid his debt to society by jail time and some work with the Humane Society. He is a role model in this society and letting him back in the NFL send the wrong mesg in my opinion.
I get what you're saying, Lea, but if the punishment needs to be more harsh then the sentencing guidelines need to be changed.
As it stands, he did in fact settle his debt to society.
When the case first came to light, I read everything from people wanting him to be tied up and killed by dogs to thinking he shouldn't get punished at all because they were just stupid dogs.
A reasonable punishment lies somewhere between those opposing views and that is what he got.
I think this crime is somewhat unique in that it is considered by the participants to be a sport. The fact that it is illegal and that illegal gambling is involved makes it that much more fun and exciting for the people who are into it.
Now that Vick has been busted, lost his freedom, lost millions of dollars and possibly even his entire career, I seriously doubt he will ever be involved in dog fighting again. And isn't that the point?
Yes, technically he has paid his debt to society and most likely will not go back into the dog fighting world. And, I guess if that is the point then its been covered. However, should he be allowed back into a profession where he is seen as a role model? IMO. No.
Jiggy brings up some great points. Add to it that Michael Vick started fighting dogs when he was 8 years old in the projects. That's a different world than most people here are used to living in, and not trying to make excuses because I will sign the board disclaimer and agree what he did was horrible, but the environment you grow up in does become a part of you and part of your culture. Child molesters get off easier than him and get less shit, and that's retarded.
The man paid the debt that society asked him to pay. He has committed to helping the Humane Society and speaking to inner city kids about how he was wrong and how dogfighting is wrong. Whether you think that's sincere or not, it can only have a positive effect. He deserves a chance at redemption, so I say, let him play. There will be something else to be outraged about next week I'm sure.
Dunno. Having a hard time deciding whether it makes any difference in the long run. Personally, I don't know he'll ever be able to repay his debt, and I wonder if it'd be better to just stop giving this douche attention and maybe he'll go away.
BOH you bring up a good point. Maybe, just maybe letting him play and come back in to the public arena could be a good thing in that it could be getting the message out there that dog fighting is unacceptable to our society. I dont know.
I agree with Todd. Even if the NFL gives him a shot, a QB is a leader and as such depends on the full support of his team, his coaching staff, and the fans to be successful. TBH he was flailing a bit even before he got sent up the river.
I don't think he can get the support he needs to be successful. Let him try and the situation will sort itself.
Possibly Squid. UFL might be a viable option for him. But I don't know if he can get any more team support there than he would be able to get in the NFL.
He has a ton of support here in Atl. (not from me of course but he has it) I still see people walking around in those #7 jerseys. Maybe they just dont have anything else to wear.
Vick "will be considered for full reinstatement and to play in regular-season games by Week 6 based on the progress he makes in his transition plan," the statement said. Week 6 of the NFL season is in October.
Vick may participate in practices, workouts and meetings and may play in his club's final two preseason games under the conditions of his reinstatement, the league said.
Translation: "Vick will be a fully paid, starting quarterback for an NFL team by week 6. In the meantime, the NFL hopes you will take the first 6 weeks of the season to forget this ever happened."
Pete Rose was the effin' MAN for a good 20 years. Dude still holds more records that just about anybody that ever played baseball. Maybe Ruth has more, cause he was a great pitcher also, but Rose was pretty much the leader of the Big Red Machine. Dude ran out walks and steamrolled a catcher in the All-Star game. Guy didn't even have the ball.
Translation: "Vick will be a fully paid, starting quarterback for an NFL team by week 6. In the meantime, the NFL hopes you will take the first 6 weeks of the season to forget this ever happened."
I doubt Vick will start anywhere. Unless... maybe... Oakland or Detroit.
He was promising, but he wasn't "all that," before he left. He was/is a running QB who should have peaked already. It's all downhill for him now.
I could give a rats ass if he plays. He's washed up.
Redskins join the list of teams (Giants, Jets, and Cowboys) currently saying no to Vick.
Sports columnists are predicting he could land with the Patriots citing Bill Belichick as the primary reason (strong handed coach). What do you think of that, Caps?
It's like I said. The Pats don't want him, especially their owner. Kraft is all about character. I think he was close to firing Belichick over spygate. Seriously.
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