So now that Oregon bars are nonsmoking, kids are allowed in most of them (I believe until 8:00 p.m.) as long as the bar serves food. There's some slightly more involved criteria, but not much. So my friend and I were sitting in a somewhat upscale cocktail bar during happy hour. These people come in that want seating for eight, a high chair and room for a stroller of ginormousness. The guy is kind of toolish about the seating being tight. As soon as they are seated, the woman starts breastfeeding. My friend and I started talking about how we've witnessed people hosting kids birthday parties at brewpubs on several occasions. Being childless, we're baffled by this behavior because we assume that when you have kids, you've signed on for a decade-long sentence of parties at Chuck-E-Cheese with no possibility of parole. One should expect to drink heavily after watching Junior shovel cake into his face, not during.
So I'm curious where other people draw the line? Do you think one should expect the smell of fresh diapers while sipping their lavender gin lemondrop? Also, if one is with a rowdy group of drinkers and some play group sits next to you, would you tone it down or continue telling penis jokes?

Depends where exactly it is. I've been at festivals, where there was both drinking and kids, and the kids didn't bother me.

When I've been in a bar and a family with kids comes in, I think my group has tended to amp up our obnoxiousness just a little.

I dont go to bars anymore but when I did I noticed some people would bring in their children and it always bothered me.

This is why I took my profile off of facebook. I just got so sick and tired of seeing pictures of people partying with kids around. One shot there is a table full of drunk adults and the next shot is a kid blowing up some bubble on the back deck. Yes, the pics are black and white and artsy but you still suck at being an adult because we all know who is driving home and who has the kids in the car.

Another friend of mine was telling me that she was at one of these parties and her daughter was spending the night with another little girl. That little girl's mom brought her daughter and my friend's daughter to this party and was drinking the whole time. My friend confided in me that she felt like she should have said something to this other mother because the other mother would be driving her daughter home. She didnt say anything. She is lucky her daughter made it home alive. What a fucking idiot. We're not really friends anymore now that I dont drink because I realized I couldnt really stand being around her sober. Drinking and driving is one thing but drinking and driving and having children in the car with you is absolutely unforgiveable...even if no one dies that day.

I would NOT take my kids into a bar. I felt uncomfortable taking them into the liquor store to pick up a bottle of wine when we were having company for dinner. And they weren't even walking yet. (I'm guessing this was Carson) No one's even drinking in there but it felt wrong.

If I were at a bar and a family came in (or a group with kids) and it was definitely a BAR, I'd feel weird. I don't even like it when families with small children sit at the bar in restaraunts while waiting to be summoned to their table via beeper. (yes, I'm uptight...and probably judgmental)

I drank on and off from the time my kids were born until they were 5, 3, and 1. Never while pregnant or nursing. I can think of one occasion that I'd had too much to drink at a party AT MY OWN HOUSE and woke up the next day not completely remembering putting them to bed. They were all in bed, in pajamas, none the worse for wear. But I still felt like crap about it. And haven't drank since.

I take my kid to the bar all the time! I find after a couple of drinks, out comes the ductape and we all have a good laugh.

He seems to enjoy the attention too...

Kathleen,

Do you have to go to liquor stores just to get wine in your state?

I know people do things differently and that there is more than one way to raise fine children, so all I can say is what we do.

We would not go to a bar with our kid(s) unless it was the only food in a hundred miles, and even then we'd probably ask if they did carry out.

Some cross-overy restaurants maybe during the day - but during drinking hours my kid is in bed. I feel weird staying at baseball games with her past her bedtime, and pay dearly for it in terms of her schedule when I do. The game had better be pretty exciting for all of us, and she'd better be seeming fine if we stay past the 7th inning stretch with her. I think I did it once - when the Red Sox were playing the Nats.

Otherwise, no kids out late, or in adult settings, period. For me, you're well within your rights to have a kid-free space in this case. You don't go to a bar expecting to have to edit yourself, and you won't have to from my kid.

I'll answer you on the other thread

Squid,

Youk recently caused a stir by saying people can't take their kids to a game anymore because of the profanity of most fans. What do you think?

I definitely tone down the language at the game. I'm much more profane in my own living room.

I'm not trying to rip on you, Squid, but I have to say that I don't understand why people insist on bringing babies (i.e. younger than 4) to baseball games. I don't understand the mindset. The kid isn't going to remember it. The kid is most likely not going to enjoy it. The whole thing looks like a big time hassle for the parent. The kid looks like a fashion accessory, IMO.

Why not get a sitter?

I agree...to a point. I would think that as long as the child is able to still fit into one of those backpacks you wear on your front (essentially sitting on your lap for the whole game), then they're still young enough to not care where they are and still be pretty happy. Obviously, if they start freaking out, you'd need to leave. You'd probably WANT to leave.

Once a child is mobile, I personally wouldn't want to take them to a ball game. And until they express an interest in watching a game (5?), I probably wouldn't really want to take them either. I admit, I've never tried it, but the language of other watchers would bother me, you might end up sitting around a bunch of rowdy drunks (same reason me + my kids = no bars), and they might just prefer to wander around and not sit.

But that's just my opinion. Butting in.

Adelaide LOVES baseball games. She loves crowds, loves the excitement. Maybe her 10th word was CHARGE! complete with the forward arm pump that goes with it. If I put on a Sox shirt right now and go see her, she'll shout CHARGE and giggle. She's been to 10 this year, and went to probably 6 or 7 last year. She went to 20 as a fetus.

We take her because we want to do things as a family, and it is fun. I can't control if people swear, but she's going to hear people swear in her life, and I don't consider preventing her from exposure to the world to be a solution for any parenting dilemma. Baseball games are "America's Pastime" because they're family events, drinking events, bachelor party outings, etc. etc. Something for everyone and all that. Kids and baseball go way back.

Even last year she loved it. She loved the attention she got from the people who sit near us, she loved being with us, and I think it was good for her to be out with her parents.

Yeah, we could get a sitter - but that makes an already expensive night out pretty prohibitive, and again, I want to do things WITH my family. Baseball is still appropriate in my book.

EDIT to fix syntax and clarify.

No matter what you do, what you say or don't- your kid as soon as she (or he) hits grade school is going to swear like a sailor. A few baseball games among 30,000 fans isn't going to change it one bit. And it won't be the standard "fuck" or "shit" you will have to worry about- Its t he concepts they pick up at school when the little bastards have time to kill on the playground.

My 12 year old was trying to get an Ewok to "teabag" Lama Su from the planet Kamino on one of his Star Wars games the other day... and that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Man, people are always teabagging my corpse in video games. I hate that crap. Most times, I tell my brother who's doing it and make him go avenge my death.

Land sakes alive, the steak's alive.

I can see where you're coming from, Squid. Some of the people on the T with their babies, make me wonder, though.

If she was a nightmare, we wouldn't take her. I remarked recently that the amount of space we have at our seats is roughly equivalent to that we'd have on any airplane. The difference between her comfort level and behavior in each of those places is night and day.

I remember being drug to baseball games as a kid. I would cover my ears, shut my eyes as hard as I could and pray for it to be over. I just remember being cold and miserable and overstimulated. I'd have been much happier at home. I've never liked noisy crowds though. When I went this year I was amazed it was so pleasant. Not that loud, or crowded, plus I can drink beer and take the edge off.

Hey AC,

I have to disagree with this:

"No matter what you do, what you say or don't- your kid as soon as she (or he) hits grade school is going to swear like a sailor."

What do you mean by grade school? First grade? High school? Either way, there are plenty of school children who DON'T swear like sailors. I'm sure there are many who do, but your blanket statement ignores the many who have high enough self esteem and high enough standards to not need to lower themselves to that level.

Oh, not swearing makes you a better person? Really? Do you seriously believe that?

No, I don't think I said it makes you a better person.

I'm just saying there are kids who don't swear like sailors.

... because swearing means you have low self esteem and are lowing yourself.

Only if you are a kid? Seems like if you are debasing yourself when you say "shit" there shouldn't be an age limit.

I just disagree that's a reason for kids not to swear. Kids shouldn't swear because swearing isn't always appropriate. Just like I don't swear at work, because it isn't appropriate or professional. They already have limited filters, so excessive exposure of kids to swearing can only mean you're going to hear an f bomb at the worst possible time.

But it "lowers" you? I disagree. I wasn't even aware we had this complicated hierarchy was happening, but I say bullshit to it.

AC said that all grade school kids "swear like sailors." There's a difference between letting out a "dammit" when you stub your toe and swearing just to hear yourself swear, impress your friends, or because you just don't have the vocabulary skills to use more apporopriate words. The later group is the one who I think lowers thier standards.

Well sometimes I think a well placed F bomb is highly appropriate.

Sorry Amber, but I disagree. Kids are going to swear- they are really good about not swearing around adults (at least the smart ones non emotionally disturbed ones), but amongst themselves (around 3rd grade) they can make a drill sargent blush.

Unless they live in a bubble- on an island with no television reception- with nuns who have taken a vow of silence- they are going to swear. Mostly because they aren't supposed to, and they know it. It's a pecking order thing- and it goes back decades. The short stories of Jean Shepard describe it pretty well in the 40's and 50's.

The way I found out about it was with my eldest- We didn't have television, always watched what we said- made sure he went to the best schools. One Christmas, he is over at the neighbors, playing video games- and he is losing. The most foulest language came out of this 9 year olds mouth- Words, I didn't recognize at first- After the second one came, I just gave up worrying a bout it. They don't swear around me, but I have caught the two of them together and it's like night at the Swear Olympics. You can try to keep them "pure", but they are going to grow up someday. It has very little to do with self esteem or standards- both my kids are extremely confident, brilliant, funny, charming- kids. They are the best children I could ever hope for. I see is just the world we live in.

There are so many other things to worry about too. Drugs, drinking, diseases, sexual promiscuity, getting a tattoo of a snake on their face. If they swear when they lose a video game- that is the least of my (or their) problems.

Yeah, I'm sure that's the experience with a lot of people. But you can't make a blanket statement like that and say ALL kids swear like sailors when they know adults aren't around.

I could cite examples of the kids I know from school and church who don't strike me as the potty-mouth kind, but you'd just say I'm not around them 24/7 and there's no way I could know that for sure. And you'd be right.

But I do know how I was as a child, and while I let the occasional bad word slip sometimes, I didn't "swear like a sailor" the way you said ALL kids do. And that little fact disputes your claim.

I just want you to realize there ARE kids out there who don't.

(I think the "swear like a sailor" cliche is arbitrary. Just to be clear, when I hear the phrase, I think of kids spouting filth with every sentence that comes out of their mouth. There's a continuum of potty mouthiness (yep, I'm making up words now) with some kids on the "never use it" side, and others on the "every other word is a curse word," some in the middle, and some closer to one side than the other.)

I don't think I'm being naive about what kids say and do when adults aren't around. I know most (or all) kids at some point do something their parents wouldn't be proud of.

But to say that ALL kids swear like sailors when they're not being watched/listened to is over-simplifing things based on YOUR experiences.

And now...I have officially dedicated more thought and effort to this topic than I ever intended

I never brought my daughter to a baseball game until she was about 5. Before that, I figured she'd be bored as hell after two innings and I'd end up having to leave early. I have no problem with other parents bringing their kids to games though. As long as they don't burden everyone else at the game with a screaming, crabby kid.

I know people that used to take their kid to NASCAR races when he was less than a year old. They used to sit real close to the track too. IMO, that's crossing the line as far as sporting events go.

As far as bars are concerned, if it's a restaurant with a bar, I don't have a problem with that as long as there is well-separated seating for the bar area and the restaurant area. If it's a bar that happens to serve some food, that doesn't seem appropriate. And even though HOOTERS has a children's menu, I don't think it's the appropriate atmosphere for young children. Although, I supposed you could get a lot a attention from the HOOTERS girls if you brought in a little kid (not that I've ever tried).

I went to a Nascar race with my dad when I was younger. I was bored out of my mind.

Amber- Well, come on! School and Church? As a kid (again, unless they are mentally challenged) those are the two places you behave the best when you are a kid!

You are also not a boy...there is a Lord of the Flies dynamic here too amongst boys that you don't see. As a kid, there is a lot of peer pressure, but believe what you want to believe- Just don't be shocked when you hear your own kid go off like a rocket one day...

I never swore when I was a kid, whether my parents were around or not.

And I'm a boy...

I used to swear as a teenager, but I ... gave it up? I hardly ever swear now, except when I'm around my sister and her kid. I find that when I'm around people that really don't like it, I do it more.

And, I don't think swearing it tied to self esteem at all.

et: to correct spelling?

I swear for no reason sometimes. Just let out a nice, long 'fuuuuuuuuuuuck' like a sigh. I don't like typing swears on the bored too much though, for some reason. Always 'friggin' this or 'crap' like that.

Land sakes alive, the steak's alive.

I swear all the time. Though, not proud, that's the fucking truth.

I used a swear on this very thread. I was a bit worked up though. I dont use the F word in every day language nor do the people that I hang out with on a regular basis.

I didnt swear as a child (much) and I dont really remember that my brother did either.

I only swear in the car when I'm in traffic. Or when I'm watching sports (ya, great f'in game last night FEDERER!).  Or when I'm mad about something and I'm arguing with the SO.

But really, I hardly ever

I swore up a storm when I hit the 4th grade. Ah the magic swear words.
I don't think I do it all that much anymore but I don't really make any effort not to either unless I'm at work. Those uptight fucking cunt licks I work with probably wouldn't like it.