So, if I'm reading this right - there WILL be football at Penn State this fall? HUH?

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[the following is culled from a CBS online story]

"The NCAA imposed a harsh set of sanctions on Penn State Monday, less than two weeks after an independent investigation found that football coach Joe Paterno and other senior school leaders failed to stop former defensive coach Jerry Sandusky from sexually abusing children on campus.

NCAA President Mark Emmert announced that the association was banning the football team from all post-season play and bowl games for four years, reducing the program's number of scholarships from 25 to 15 per year for four years, and fining the program $60 million. The association also vacated all of the program's wins between 1998 and 2011.

The program will also be on probation for five years. Current Penn State players will immediately be allowed to transfer without sitting out a year, Emmert said. One coach told CBSSports.com last week that Penn State recruits were already calling him trying to gauge interest in their talents.

The NCAA said the $60 million is equivalent to the annual gross revenue of the football program. The money must be paid into an endowment for external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at Penn State.

Six months to the day after Paterno's death, the iconic statue of him was removed from the front of Penn State's football stadium Sunday. In addition to the statue being hauled away from Beaver Stadium, the Paterno memorial was covered up. Everything is gone: every plaque, every word, every reminder of six decades at Penn State - erased memorials to a man who, in the end, said he wished he had done more."

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Enough? I think not. At least one year of no football at all seems to be called for.

However, if ALL of their players transfer that might make it hard.

Also, now come the civil lawsuits. I wonder if those certain victories will result in the financial death of the entire school? Anyone seen anything to that effect?

It all seems pointless given that it changes nothing...but I think it went far enough proving the point. Penn State football will be crippled for years to come.

How fucking dare they! JoPa was a God damn hero, and time will show these falsehoods for what they are and then all of you will be sorry!

JoPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


Is it enough. Pshaw - more like too much!

you're kidding right? I'm assuming this is sarcasm.

More fun than a barrel full of monkeys, this one.

I don't understand pointless. I would think heavy sanctions are there to discourage such a thing from not repeating in that organization or others? Putting children's welfare above football seems like a good thing, not a pointless show to me. I do not value a bunch of men getting enormous advantages in education and earning ability to play a game.

I'm having a hard time seeing that most of this addresses the crime. Hear me out. The students (both athletes and non) that are currently at Penn State were around kindergarten age when the abuse began. The freshmen were BORN that year (1994).

It wasn't the football players and the football program at Penn State that did this. It was Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier, Shultz, Curly, etc who committed or covered up the crime. It happened to occur in the football facilities. I'd imagine it happened elsewhere as well (e.g., his home).

These are the things I don't get:

1. Penn State is stripped of all winning titles from 1998 forward
2. Penn State cannot participate in any post season play for 4 years
3. Penn State scholarships for football reduced from 25 to 15 for next 4 years
4. $60 million in fines (where does this money come from?)

How does 1-3 penalize the guilty? The Penn State alum and fans who did nothing wrong, the kids on the team now who knew nothing about this crime? I don't get why you hold the football PROGRAM accountable? Fry Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier, Shultz, Curly for SURE.

Is it because the feeling is that the reason all these guys covered up the crime was to protect their precious football program so if it is destroyed then that will be their punishment? That just seems weird to me.

If the very thing they committed a crime to protect is destroyed, the next person won't think twice about making the same mistake, is how I see it.

So, right. I did say that. But you are also punishing innocent people.

The current players? Well they can transfer without penalty. It's too bad that they have to do it, I agree, but all the same I think the message must be sent, there are more important things than a football program.

Yeah, I get that.

I am just imagining the kid who grew up his whole life wanting to play for the program and he finally gets there (maybe even on scholarship) and then these disgusting horrible excuses for men effed the whole thing up maybe even before he was born!

Plus just because you have a scholarship to one school doesn't mean the financial support will be there at another. Transferring is not that simple.

Crazy.

Well, unfortunately for that kid, the football program you grew up worshiping was full of child rapists and people covering up rapists. Sometimes life isn't always what we hoped it would be. Sucks more to be the little kid that looked up to these people and got raped, and no one cared enough to stop it from happening to other kids.

The program does deserve to be punished for that. It's not about the individuals anymore.

Agreed, Ginny. Sucks that more people are going to suffer but it is inevitable.

At least they removed Paterno's statue. Step one in the right direction.

What Ginny said, life doesnt always work out the way we'd like it to. It's sad for those kids, but there are bigger tragedies.

I'm kind of bummed that he's not here to see his statue get taken down.

He got off easy.

Who, paterno? Who is dead??

Yes. He died at a ripe old age and didn't have to pay for what he did, and that's a shame.

I'm sure wherever he is, he knows the consequences of what he didn't do . . .
I think the punishments fit as best as they can, under the circumstances. I feel badly for the current students and players. But I'm sure no one is really that surprised at the outcome.

agreed with Appy. Yeah, its a shame that people not involved have their lives impacted. Should make it really difficult to let this happen again knowing how it might be addressed.

If the moral reasons weren't enough, at least they know now that their inaction hurt the very thing they sought to protect.

They are lucky there is still football to play.

Yeah, I was on the fence but I see now that it's going to be the definitive deterrent.  Agreed with Appy totally now.

Well, she's always right.

What a pleasure approving your posts anon.

I can see both sides - there's nope4rfect answer here. But it just seems strange to move on and not address this at the level of the football program - which in essence was part of the reason all of this happened...or at least was covered up.

Also, the logic that it hurts the innocent is not sufficient. The NCAA has punished schools with these same sort of sanctions int he past - recently USC. Those actions punished past indiscretions, yet hurt current players and coaches more than past players and coaches.

Ask Pete Carroll.

It doesn't hurt the innocent at all. They can all go to some other school. A coworker has a daughter who got a hockey scholarship and this year they announced the school would no longer be funding their hockey team, so no more hockey. Sure it's a hassle but shit happens.

I would be relieved that my son/daughter wasn't going there. This whole things shows just how much they valued their students over football. Football??!!! I have never heard of anything so ridiculous. This whole thing boggles my mind.

My husband is outraged that the punishment is so light. I, on the other hand, think that the people involved have been removed and hopefully will be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I don't see the point in punishing thousands and thousands of people because of the actions of a few.

I have a FB post about it, and most people are more on board with my husband than with me.

It's not the thousands of people that are suffering. It's the school. Hopefully, it will change the insane "football is everything" attitude they have. I can only describe it as cult-ish.

But the whole area will be affected. I agree that the "football is everything" attitude is ridiculous. But this scandal is going to screw up people's lives who had nothing to do with it.

It won't screw up their lives. They can adjust.

Hummmmmm...grown men playing a game is that more important then a child being raped? I know where I stand what puzzles me is there really a question?

I kind of get that argument that the whole area is affected if they eliminated the entire program. I guess the town makes a lot of money off out of town visits for games and such. But they didn't eliminate the program. It will eventually be like nothing happened. And if a local business owner wants to get mad about it, I suggest going and spitting in the holes left where Paterno's statue used to be, because I think the NCAA was more than fair about it.

I'm just going to quote a friend. I agree with her.

"I grew up in State College. And the whole town would suffer if they shut down the football program -- the hotels, the restaurants, the souvenir shops, all the people who work at those places, etc. I think that the people who were directly involved should be punished, and the university should be fined. But I don't think that the whole town should be punished. Just my two cents."

This lady is as sweet and lovely as you, Arwen. It's a bit out of character for her to speak up like that. But I'm glad she did.

The student athletes can transfer. That's not a huge deal. The issue that I have is how this will effect the livelihoods of people who have lived there for their entire lives.

OK. I see your point.

ETA Thank you for the compliment

I'm liking this comment by one of the victims lawyers:

A lawyer for one of Sandusky's victims said the NCAA should have heard from his client and others who were abused.

"Throughout the past several weeks, PSU and the NCAA have imposed sanctions and taken what they perceive to be corrective measures," said Ben Andreozzi, attorney for the person identified as Victim No. 4 in the Sandusky case. "I am disappointed that no effort was made to consult the victims in this case to ensure that their voices were heard in this process. After all, they are the ones who were victimized, not the NCAA or PSU. "


I'm not saying they should have a direct say or vote in what happens to PSU, just that it's funny nobody ever thought of contacting them and talking to them.

"I grew up in State College. And the whole town would suffer if they shut down the football program"

Good thing for her they didn't shut down the football program, then. I don't under stain the complaint if this was the concern. They should be happy the program wasn't shut down. A lot of people don't think it would have been out of order to do so. Should a program that benefitted from the covering up of abuse of children not receive ANY punishment? I think the damage to the reputation of Penn State Football has been harmed more than the NCAA could ever manage by its own coaches and administrators.

Emokid is throwing slomo dove at my face, I guess that means he flipped me the bird

"But this scandal is going to screw up people's lives who had nothing to do with it."

The NCAA is doing to Penn State what the Romans did to Carthage. "Fuck with us," said they, "and we will ruin not only YOUR lives, but the lives of everybody you love."

The punishment is absolutely intended to do exactly what you said, Balti - and it is a deliberate message to all the kings of the land.

It's similar to many types of boycotts, such as people boycotting the entire state of Arizona over SB-1070. By not ordering copper supplies from Arizona's manufacturers or visiting Arizona's resorts - Americans in opposition of the law were punishing the people who depend on Arizona's governance in hopes that they would cry out in pain loudly enough that Arizona's governance would change their ways.

This is the same concept as boycotting BP gas stations after the spill in The Gulf a few years ago. BP franchises out all of their gas stations. Boycotting BP gas stations had no direct impact on BP whatsoever, but instead harmed the family owned businesses who had invested in the right to use BP's namesake - presumably hoping the trickle-down impact would cause less people to invest in BP franchises going forward (I'll admit - most people probably had no clue that BP doesn't own or operate any of the gas stations - but still.)

So yeah - everyone saying "but this is going to hurt so many people" is correct and the NCAA wouldn't argue with you - they'd bang their war drum and say, "you're damn right it will."

Weakening those who depend on your enemy is a very effective method of weakening your enemy - and publicly weakening your enemies is a very effective method of incenting others to not become your enemy.

Herpes is a gift that doesn't say "I love you.". -Hep C

Very well said. I'm so glad to be surrounded by people that can articulate how I feel in a much better way than I ever could.

All allusions to Machiavelli and The Rules of Power aside:

PSU violated many laws in this case. They're lucky to still be an accredited university.

The NCAA is a governing body, and must respond to violations of its rules according to its bylaws. I think they stopped well short of what precedent dictates in not cancelling a single season of football (the death penalty). The issues here were at least as bad as those in the cases where they implemented the death penalty in the past.

The vicitims will get their day in court to sue for damages. It would be completely inappropriate for them to have had any say in this.

The Dept. of Education still has to finish its investigation about violations of the Clery Act. That could still be the death penalty for the SCHOOL. Again, I don't think this will happen.

So - people of State College? You've got every right to be sad that all of this happened, but it did, and the various authorities in this case have to respond according to their bylaws and according to the laws of the United States.

If this was a chemical factory in your town where everyone worked, and they poisoned the local river, and the EPA shut them down, you'd be equally fucked. Sorry townspeople, but sometimes the pillars of your community fuck up royally, and ruin the whole town in the process.

Surprise! There are factors beyond your control at work in the world.

I do sincerely sympathize, but that argument is utterly weak - that somehow the individuals' or the schools' punishment should be moderated because it might hurt the chicken wing place in town.

I get it and I agree - but your opinion would probably be tinged if you worked at the chicken wing place.

Sad story, all around.

Love ^^

E remove sig

I still agree with Ashton Kuchner. Classless firing JoPa, classless letting JoPa just die like we did without any death intervention, classless letting them take down that statue with the finger that makes such a good dildo, and lastly, classless letting chicken wings just sit there uneaten.

LOL! No offense. Just didn't think it was appropriate at the time

Nice to see you back

"Me and my tampon, just kickin' it." Cornbread McIncest

Yes, please pardon my silly allusions to literature and history and let Squid restate it for me.

I did not even remotely restate your point. I disagreed with it.

Your points were all about these ominous messages being sent via power plays. Are your points NOT not allusions to Machiavelli and Power? Did you think I was being dismissive or superior by saying so?

I merely disagreed with you. I think they're following the legal playbook, as leniently as they can possibly get away with.

You think they're scorching earth to send a message. So far the only message I see is that if you illegally give your Division III tennis players scholarships, your program gets the death penalty, but if boys are ass-raped by one of your coaches and you look the other way, you get to play your next season, so long as you're PSU.

I can't really apologize for not agreeing with you, but if you thought I was belittling your points, I'm sorry for that.

As much as he despises me, I have to agree with Squid on this one. He didn't restate what Syrgot said. That whole "scorched earth" thing is s total fallacy. No way the NCAA thought, hmmm, let's see, what can we do to REALLY screw the town where Penn State is located so other unis don't pull this crap." That is utterly ridiculous. Penn State effectively got a slap on the wrist. No doubt about it. JoPa loses his place in history? Cry me a river, dude. They still get to play ball and in a couple of years they'll be right back to status quo. Let's just hope it's without the child abuse this time.

I agree with Squid and anon.  If they wanted to hurt innocent people, they could have shut the program down.  I think they did what would impact the people in the community the least.

Emokid is throwing slomo dove at my face, I guess that means he flipped me the bird

It's very sad that so many are still quick to defend Paterno and his "legacy" despite the facts. No different than OJ being acquitted of murder. People believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts. There is no innocent party in this. If you bought Penn State merchandise during the time period, your money went to support the football program. The more they won, the more money they made. The more money they made the more important it was to protect the football program at all costs. If you bought into the fact that the Penn State football program was larger than life, you are as guilty as Sandusky.

Bullshit. 

Anonowang at 2:40 has a fucking screw loose. That's blatant Troll 101. Good try, doofus.

Do you really want to have to differentiate yourself from this wanger by pointing out time stamps? 

Um..it's better than nothing?

Is it?  I'd say it's a negative.  Therefore by definition less than nothing.  Not everyone knows who I really am, but they can distinguish me from someone who  blathers that tripe.*

 

 

 

 

*Alright no comments from the peanut gallery!!

WWJD - What Would Jopa Do?

Ignore it and pretend this thread didn't exist.


JoPaaaaaaaa!

Buying a sweatshirt is the exact same thing as raping kids.  Ok got it.

Not my point. What fueled the cover up? Money. Where did the money come from? Fans. Why is that important? Because we glorify sports in this country more than anything. What are the names of the professors at Penn State that are involved in research and development of life-saving drugs? Of course no one knows their names. But we know the names of the football staff and players. Why? Because we have our priorities all screwed up.

Cue the dramatic turn of the hamster.  Yeah we have our priorities mixed up.  That's a problem in our society.  So that makes me guilty in this crime?  No, my simplistic friend.  I'm so sick of that spurious argument.

Umm hello?

It's a prairie dog.

Sheesh!

Spurious? I don't think so. If Joe Paterno wasn't making millions, he wouldn't have felt the need to cover up such an egregious crime. He did it to protect his wallet. The wallet you were filling with money. That's not a spurious argument, it's fact.

Lol, Arwen!  What-evah!

Yes it is spurious.  And circular.  It goes right back to Original Sin.  We're all guilty of everything since then.  We're all sinners.  Only the person who bought the tee shirt is more guilty than the guy in the log cabin with no cell phone who spurns popular society, right?  Yeah.  That's the ticket.

And with your logic, there is no fixing the problem. You just accept that it is the way it is instead of recognizing the problem and then doing something about it. The NCAA did something by hitting Penn State in the wallet. Where it hurts.

True to form, once your premise has been disproved you change it.  I have been agreeing right along with the punishment.  That doesn't mean I'm going to blame myself for it.  Get one argument and stick to it.

What are you talking about?!?! My argument hasn't changed. My initial and subsequent comments were all about greed-fueled coverups.

"If you bought into the fact that the Penn State football program was larger than life, you are as guilty as Sandusky".  Circular.

PSU- Pedophilia Sanctioning University.

I just made that up. It's gold, Jerry!

Are u really Caps?  Because if you are, please log in.  I don't like approving someone using someone's real name if it's not u.

Of course it is, I, CapsLock.

Good to see ya back, Tam!

Thanks.  I is glad to be back.  I was a fool.  A fool to leave you.  Dramatic whistlepig turn!

There are some fantasy football names on the Penn State football topic. I have seen comments where people think they are over the line and websites not allowing them in contests for best FF team name 2012.

I named my team "Free Peyton!" heh.

Touche. I've been outwitted by your intellectual prowess. You're a genious.

And I can even spell genius!  Genius!

Jude was back for a little while there not too long ago. She breezed in and back out like the summer air through an English window with no screen.

She's still around. Just in the treehouse.

Caps, did you log off and then make another comment?

 

Man, it feels like someone just grabbed a baton and I can finally catch my breath for a minute.

Sincere welcome back Tam.

You know, that might be the nicest thing you've ever said to me. 

Yes, Squid, I thought you were mocking my point and didn't catch that you were disagreeing with me until you just clarified it.

But as you have clarified, I read that wrong. So thank you for clarifying. And now I challenge you to a duel for disagreeing with me!

And that wasn't you up there arguing with Tamrah? Mm-hmm.

Wait a minute, is caps Squid's anon foil?????

Nope