Many people say Ishamael was dead, so it can´t be Ishamael that killed Asmodean. We didn´t know that the DO could resurrect forsakens until LOC.
[Resurrection]
TEOTW, Prologue, Dragonmount:
Ishamael said: “You can have her (Ilyena) back, Kinslayer. The Great Lord of the Dark can make her live again, if you will serve him. If you will serve me.”
Later, after the healing, Lews Therin said: “For what else you have done, there can be no forgivness, Betrayer, but for Ilyena´s death I will destroy you beyond anything your master can repair.”
TEOTW, Chapter 7, Out of the Woods
Rand asked Moiraine if she could heal Tam... at any price.
“Any price,” Moiraine mused, half to herself. “We will speak of the price later, Rand, if at all. I can make no promises. Your wisdom knows what she is about. I will do what I can, but it is beyond my power to stop the Wheel of turning.”
“Death comes sooner or later to everyone,” the Warder said grimly, “unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price.”
TEOTW, Chapter 34, Four Kings in Shadow
Howal Gode, darkfriend... “You [Rand and Mat] will submit to my master - to your master - or you will be made to submit. That would not be pleasant for you. The Great Lord of the Dark rules death, and he can give life in death or death in life as he chooses.”
TDR, Chapter 55, What Is Written in Prophecy:
Rand killed Ishamael. Ishamael was dead, leaving a dead body in the Stone of Tear. So from this point many people say “Ishamael was dead, so it can´t be him”.
So, this was a definitive death?
Well, maybe not. Ishamael served the Great Lord of the Dark.
In TEOTW, we were given some hints from four different people that the Great Lord of the Dark could bring the dead back. The DO is also named The Lord of the Grave. That sounds like he can manipulate with the dead in some way.
-Betrayer said that the DO could give life back, if you serve him.
-Lews Therin seems to know that the DO can “repair” death.
-Lan said that Death comes to everyone, unless you serve the DO.
-And Gode said that The DO rules death, gives life in death or death in life.
Four people who believe, or know, that the Great Lord of the Dark actually can bring the dead back to life.
Perhaps this is some of the “intuitively obvious” information from the first five books, telling us that the DO can bring dead back to life.
RJ said that we definitely should figure it out at the end of TPOD, if we can´t find the “intuitively obvius” in the first five books.
In LOC we can read about resurrection. We know that the Great Lord of the Dark can resurrect dead people who serve him, forsakens who not were balefired. This supports what the four people above said in the first five books.
Ishamael was not balefired. So there is a possibility that Ishamael could have been resurrected earlier than his first official appearence in ACOS.
The question is: Was Ishamael resurrected in time to be Asmdoean´s murderer.
In ACOS, I think RJ left some information that points out that Ishamael had been skulking around for a while, unseen behind a fancloth skulker´s mask.
ACOS, Chapter 20, Pattern Within Patterns:
In this chapter, the Watcher is spying at Sammael and Graendal. He is behind a fancloth skulker´s mask, made by the TP. Black flecks filled the Watcher´s eyes, a horisontal blizzard. The Watcher, Moridin, Ishamael resurrected in a NEW body, had Saa in his eyes. And this spying happened just two full days after the battle at Dumai´s Wells.
ACOS, Chapter 25, Mindtrap:
Moghedien, mindtrapped, saw the young man Moridin for the first time. She saw Saa in his eyes. Moghedien´s POV: “This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once. Much more.”
Moghedien saw Saa in this young man´s eyes and was thinking that he must have tapped into the TP more than once. MUCH more.
And this young man was behind a fancloth skulker´s mask, watching Sammael just TWO full days after the battle at Dumai´s Wells (the end of LOC) with Saa in his eyes.
Ishamael must have been resurrected much earlier than the battle at Dumai´s Wells. Why?
He was resurrected in a new body, with new eyes, but still there was Saa in those “new” eyes. This means that Ishamael had used his new body for a certain time, and before the battle at Dumai´s Wells, tapping into the TP. How long time, I don´t know? I would guess for some months. I don´t know how long time it really takes until Saa appeares in your eyes when you start using the TP instead of saidin (or saidar)? But I don´t think it happens in the first couple of days, or weeks.
In the latest Interview, in Hungary, Robert Jordan said:
“When you first begin using the TP, there is nothing there, nothing in your eyes. After you have used the TP for a while, you begin to have a black spots in your eyes when you´re using the TP. The Saa becomes thicker and thicker. It gets to a point where you have used it so much, that you have steady streams even if you´re not channeling the TP. At this point you are on the road to become what Ishamael was. You will get Fire Eyes. This is the ultimate level of the usage of the TP. If you are not granted immortality, you are on your way to death. Not madness, but you are on your way to death.
I think there is a pretty good chance that Moridin (Ishamael in an new body) could have been skulking around much earlier than his official appearence, which was only two days after the battle at Dumai´s Wells. And perhaps he was alive to be Asmodean´s murderer.
[Black Ajah]
BA was created by Ishamael. BA served Ishamael until he died in TDR. Then Mesaana took his place. If Ishamael was resurrected in the books TSR or TFOH, why didn´t Ishamael take his place back? Simply because he would have annonuced loud and clear that he was back, and then he couldn´t sneak around, watching the other Forsakens, see what they were up to, and learn about their plans and strategies. It´s much better if everybody think he is dead. I guess RJ feels that way too, so he can watch us squirm...
[Amico and Joiya, members of the BA]
TSR:
Amico Nagoyin and Joiya Byir were captured in the Stone of Tear. They served Ishamael.
Amico and Joiya talked too much under interrogation, because someone later assasinated those two, silenced them, during the time Trollocs and Myrddraals attacked the Stone of Tear.
TSR, Chapter 12, Tanchico or the Tower:
Moiraine said “The captain very wisely kept his men to their post in the dungeons during the attack. They never saw a single Trolloc or Myrddraal. But they found the pair dead, after.”
We don´t know exactly who the assasin was, by information from the first five books, but it must have been someone who can travel in some way. The question is who assasinated those two BA, so they won´t talk anymore about the BA´s future plans, Ishamael´s future plans? Who was afraid that they could spoil some BA future plans? Ishamael was dead, but someone was making sure that no more of Ishamael´s plans were spoiled. It could have been Ishamael resurrected who was the assasin, he could travel, but in WH we know it was Slayer who was the assasin. But someone ordered Slayer to kill those two BA. I think it was Ishamael resurrected. To avoid the possibility of getting his carefully laid plans spoiled.
TPOD, Chapter 2, Unweaving: He (Moridin, Ishamael resurrected) disliked people meddling with his carefully laid plans, Those who did so and lived, lived to pay.
[Mazrim Taim, a false dragon]
TGH:
Mazrim Taim, another false dragon, appeared in the story. I think there is one man behind many of the false dragons during time. Ishamael. He told Rand in his dreams that the Amyrlin Seat was using Davian, Yurian Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane, Logain Ablar, the false dragons. And who was using the Amyrlin Seat? The BA was. Who was using the BA? Ishamael was.
So, why would Mazrim Taim go free?
TSR, Chapter 5, Questioners:
Joiya said something interesting about Mazrim Taim when she was captured in the Stone of Tear, and under interrogation: Liandrin meant to break Mazrim Taim free. Proclaim him the Dragon Reborn, and his name given as Rand al’Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such scale as the world has not seen since the War of Hundred Years. Joiya could have been telling a lie, but some time later Mazrim Taim was free.
TSR, Chapter 17, Deceptions:
Mazrim Taim had escaped.
“How?”, Siuan asked. Leane answered “He was taken by stealth in the night, Mother. Two sisters are dead”.
Taken by stealth in the night? Hmm.
TDR, Chapter 55, What Is Written in Prophecy:
”Whips of black lightning curled around her [Moiraine]. Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all the other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him. Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba’alzamon.”
Ishamael was swatched in fancloth except for his eyes. Invisible, not worried to be seen, watching Rand and Be’lal fighting. He was not visible until the time he decided to interfere.
In ACOS, chapter 20, we found out that the Watcher, Moridin, Ishamael resurrected, was swatched in fancloth except for his eyes, watching Sammael, and Graendal. He was not worried that he would be seen, while using the TP.
Could Ishamael have been behind his invisibility, swatched in fancloth, behind a skulker´s mask, when Mazrim Taim was rescued from the Aes Sedais? “He was taken by stealth in the night.” It sounds like it could have been Ishamael resurrected that broke Mazrim Taim free.
LOC:
We learned that Mazrim Taim knows lots of things from the AOL. “So-called” slipped out from his tongue when he was talking to Rand. And how could Taim had been avoiding the taint for such a long time, when everybody else channeling saidin have not succeed in doing that? Ishamael might have helped him to get protection from the taint. How, I ´m not sure? Perhaps Taim has a black cord attached to him like the other Forsakens have.
TGH, Chapter 15, Kinslayer
Ba’alzamon said to Rand: “I can teach you control the power (saidin) so that it does not destroy you. Noone else lives who can teach you that. The Great Lord of the Dark can shelter you from the madness. The power can be yours, and you can live forever. Forever! All you must do in return is serve. Only serve. Simple words- I am yours, Great Lord – and power will be yours.”
I think Mazrim Taim could not say no to this tempting offer. Taim is a man searching for power. I think Taim is serving Ishamael, and Ishamael has been teaching Taim some AOL-stuff.
Mazrim Taim just seems to know too much for just being a regular guy. Ishamael is most certainly behind this false dragon. Mazrim Taim is working for Ishamael.
Well, there still is a possibility that Taim could just be Taim, no darkfriend. But Taim knows too much about AOL to be just a regular male channeler. It seems more like Taim has been taught by someone with AOL-experience, one of the Forsakens.
[Padan Fain, Mordeth]
TSR:
Ordeith, Padan Fain as a whitecloak, went to the Two Rivers, to kill Rand´s people, to bring Rand´s attention to him.
Furst Luc also went to the Two Rivers, but for another reason. To kill Padan Fain. Why? What had Padan Fain done to Luc?
Information from WH:
We learned that it was Ishamael who ordered Slayer (Luc/Isam) to kill the vermin Fain.
If Ishamael ordered this before he was killed in the Stone of Tear, why would Slayer continue, trying to kill Padan Fain, when his employee was dead? Is it that fun fulfilling an order? No, Slayer´s POV told us he likes to be in TAR, where he truly feels free. Not searching for Fain, I guess.
But it seems that someone was making sure that Ishamael´s order still was carried out. Who? Perhaps Ishamael himself, which means he must have been resurrected to do this. Who else had any interest in making sure that Ishamael´s order, killing Padan Fain, was carried out? I doubt that any other of the Forsakens were clever enough to see Padan Fain as the big threat he truly is.
And if Moridin (Ishamael resurrected) ordered to kill Padan Fain in TSR, it means Ishamael was resurrected immediately after his death, and he would for sure be a possible candidate of killing Asmodean.
[Jaichim Carridin, Bors]
Ishamael sent a Myrddraal to visit Jaichim Carridin, to give him an order. Kill the Dragon Reborn. If Carridin wasn´t succesful, the Myrddraal would kill one of Carridin´s family members, one for every month the Dragon Reborn still was alive, and until only Carridin was alive. If the Dragon Reborn still was alive after another month, Carridin would be sent to Shayol Ghul to die slowly and painfully.
Ishamael died in TDR, but someone was making sure that Ishamael´s command still was carried out. In ACOS, Chapter 15, Insects: Sammael said “There is very little luck in you Carridin. You had better hope you have more carrying out my orders. It seems that someone is making sure at least some of Ishamael´s commands are still carried out. You failed him and you’ve lost your entire family for it. Only my hand protects you now.”
So, since the order in TDR prologue, one of Carridin´s family members has been killed every month until only Carridin was left. If Ishamael really was dead, who pushed the Myrddraal to keep on, making sure that Ishamael´s order still was carried out?
[Graendal, Lanfear, Rahvin, Sammael]
TFOH, Prologue, The First Sparks Fall:
In a meeting, Lanfear said to Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael: “Someone else is trying to control Rand. Perhaps to kill. I suspect Moghedien or Demandred.”
Moghedien was in Tanchico, and Demandred... perhaps. But he would not try to control Rand. He would first try to kill him, then kill him and finally kill him before trying to control him.
Who, except for Lanfear, was trying to control Rand in the first five books? Ishamael was.
TFOH, Chapter 34, A Silver Arrow:
Graendal, Lanfear, Rahvin and Sammael were in another meeting, in TAR. They had a plan to take Rand out, once he would start chasing Sammael. If need be, one close to Rand al’Thor will die, at Sammael´s order. Then Rand for sure will come for Sammael. And while he is fixed on Sammael alone, the other three, linked, will take him. This was their plan.
They went on with this plan. Melindhra tried to kill one close to Rand, at Sammael´s order. Mat Cauthon. This was what they thought would make Rand come for Sammael. But Mat killed Melindhra instead, and at the same time rumors came to Cairhien. Rumors said that Morgase was dead. Rand went furious and decided to go for Rahvin instead of Sammael, the next day.
TFOH, Chapter 54, To Caemlyn:
When Rand instead came for Rahvin, the Forsakens (G, L, R, S) original plan failed. Rahvin was surprised when Rand came for him; “Rand opened a gateway and was staring through the opening into a great columned hall with white lion-carved stone panels, where a large man with wings of white in his dark hair started up, in SURPRISE from a gilded throne.”
It seems like Rahvin didn´t expect Rand to show up in Caemlyn that day. Of course he had built up a defense to defend himself, but it was against anyone who could channel. He just didn´t expect Rand to show up that day.
Or was Rahvin surprised that Rand could travel? With Asmodean as a teacher? I don´t think so.
Who spread those false rumors?
1) Probably Lanfear. She loved LTT, and didn´t want him to die. If it was Lanfear, this might have been why she was given her last chance as Cyndane. She did something good, before she disappeared. Before that she had talked about challenging the DO with the Choedan Kal. Not that smart.
2) Or perhaps Ishamael. He was trying to keep Rand alive. Making sure that there was a Lord of Chaos to rule the world the next day Demandred would get the “Let the Lord of Chaos rule”-order. It was better to sacrifice Rahvin, than letting Rand die. The DO just hoped it hadn´t been balefire that killed Rahvin.
Did Graendal and Sammael find out about those false rumors in time to change their plans, and help Rahvin? They surely had spies with al´Thor, but how quick could they report to their masters? I don´t think Graendal and Sammael found out about the changes in time to help Rahvin. Sammael and Graendal would have helped Rahvin defeating Rand if they had found out. This was their greatest opportunity to eliminate Rand. Why didn´t they take the chance? Why didn´t they take this big chance? Well, I would say because someone (Lanfear or Ishamael) spread false rumors to make Rand go after Rahvin instead of Sammael and a certain death.
What I´m trying to say with this information is that two suspects of killing Asmodean, Graendal and Sammael, probably wasn´t in Caemlyn at all. Sammael never attacks if he ain´t sure that he will win. If he doesn´t believe that Graendal, Rahvin and himself can manage to beat Rand, how could he ever beat Rand? Did Graendal, alone, go to Caemlyn to help Rahvin to confrontate Rand? Graendal would not risk a direct confrontation with Rand, unless she was sure for victory. She intends to live, not to die.
If Sammael and Graendal were in Caemlyn, Rand would have had some great difficulties killing Rahvin. Rahvin, Graendal and Sammael probably would have killed Rand instead.
So, Graendal didn´t do it, and Sammael didn´t do it?
[The DO]
The DO seems to know more about the world than the Forsakens do, sometimes. Well, if Ishamael was brought back to life, he could have been watching, unseen behind a fancloth skulker´s mask, made by the TP, and could have been reporting to the DO about what was going on in the world.
LOC, Prologue, The First Message: Demandred was surprised the DO knew more about Rahvin´s death and seemed to know more about Asmodean than he did. Ishamael, the DO´s number one guy, had done a good job.
[Finally, Asmodean´s Death]
Why would Ishamael resurrected kill Asmodean?
Ishamael wanted to infiltrate Mazrim Taim with al’Thor. Asmodean had knowledge from AOL. He might have known that Taim knew too much about AOL-stuff for just being a regular male channeler, and could have told Rand that something was wrong, that Taim might be working for a Forsaken.
To infiltrate Taim, Asmodean had to be eliminated, to make sure that Taim´s employee never would be found out.
How did it happen?
In TPOD, Chapter 1, To Keep A Bargain, Moridin, Ishamael resurrected, was watching Aviendha, Elayne and Nynaeve in the palace hallways in Ebou Dar, unseen, swatched in fancloth made by the TP. I think he was doing the same in the palace hallways in Caemlyn. Behind a fancloth skulker´s mask, Ishamael was following the fight between Rand and Rahvin, to make sure the things went on as planned.
And after the fight, Ishamael walked around, unseen, in the palace and was waiting for Asmodean to be alone. When Jasin Natael left Mat and Aviendha to find some descent wine...
“YOU? NO!”.
But how did Asmodean recognize Ishamael in a new body?
One possibility is Mask of Mirrors. With the TP, he could have changed his looks, so he looked like he used to do in his old body. Why bother that? When killing one of the thirteen most powerful among men and women from the AOL, you probably want to say hello and let the victim know who it was who killed him? It would be more fun for Ishamael to see the expressions of Asmodean´s face when he showed Asmodean that he was back to rule the world again.
And a dead man does not talk. So Ishamael can still work unseen, behind a fancloth skulker´s mask.
By leaving no body, Ishamael resurrected created chaos of a small scale. Rand would never be sure of what really happened to Asmodean. Rand thinks that Asmodean still is alive.
And by using the TP, nobody felt the weaves of perhaps balefire, or whatever that killed Asmodean. And nobody felt when Ishamael traveled away from Caemlyn, using the TP. Saidin or saidar might have been detected by Rand or the female channelers in the palace. The TP can´t be detected, unless you are about to be affected by the weaves. You can´t see the weaves, but you know when something is about to kill you.
What do you think? Could Ishamael have killed Asmodean?
Tunt, märkligt, ofokuserat, låångt........ och faschinerande.
August 23 2003, 1:20 PM
Få se om jag fattat rätt:
1. Varför: "to infiltrate Taim" - Märklig engelska, men ganka bra tanke att Taim är styrd av Moridin. Men, hur kommer det sig då att Osan'gar/Dashiva gav samma order som Taim i WH? Osan'gar sitter inta i mindtrap sitsen som andra men han vet vem Moridin är och lyder ganka bra ändå (och dog p.g.a det ).
2. Hur: Med TP och "fancloth" höll Moridin sig dold. Asmodean fick se Ishmael då Ishy ville stila lite?
Det kan alltså inte ha varit ngn annan som kunde använda kraften? En kvinna skulle gå obemärkt för Rand och ignorerad av AS. Är det verkligen så svårt att göra sig av med en kropp om man har lite inside hjälp? Det fanns säkerligen Darkfriends i palatset och vi visste sedan tidigare att en del av dem visste att Jasin Natael (sp?) var DF och kanske inte gilla att han skijde sig från dem. TP är fullt möjligt, men också onödigt. Och om det var TP så kunde Asmo ha blivit kidnappad för att utstå all möjlig otrevlig behandling i Shayol Ghoul (sp?). Balefire?! Lite överdrivet, tycker jag. Och jag har inte uppfattat Ishmael som överdriven.
Det var alltså teorin. Vad var allt det som står innan bra för?
Bra research
Jo, anledningen var att slippa få ett "Ishamael var död, så det var inte han"-svar igen.
Så därför ville jag visa att Ishamael kanske ligger bakom mycket som händer i de tidigare böckerna, trots sin död.
-Amico och Joiya tystades
-Slayer jagar Fain i Tufloden
-Carridins familjemedlemmar dödas varje månad
...
Jag kan hålla med om att slutet inte blev så övertygande, men jag var tvungen att få ett slut på det.
Det är sant det du sa om saidar. Det kan ju mycket väl vara någon av kvinna som upptäckt att Jasin Natael är DF.
"Han kan skada Car'a'carn, och måste avlägsnas, för Car'a'carns egna bästa, oavsett vad Car'a'carn själv tycker. Sorelia eller någon annan (en)Vis kanske gjorde det."
Men att använda TP (onödigt eller inte) så är det en försiktighetsåtgärd. Att Saidar används kanske ingen reagerar på, men risken finns. Det kan naturligtvis vara en kvinna också, men det kan också vara en man.
Otroligt imponerande genomgång. Bäst av allt tycker jag faktiskt är påminnelsen om att man faktisk vet att DO kan återuppliva. "Tänkte inte på det"...
Jag tror att du kan ha rätt så jag säger att antingen var det Ishamael eller så var det Samael.
De första böckerna handlar egentligen bara om Samael men jag misstänker att Ishamael är någon slags Jordan-favorit så det kan vara han. Ishamael är ju helt klart "värstingen" i gänget. Jag misstänker att det kommer att bli någon slags rätt häftig slutstrid mellan Rand och honom.
Din detektivstudie är faktiskt så bra att jag skulle inte förvånas om den stämmer till 90%. Ta bort några av de grövsta gissningarna och jag skulle inte bli förvånad om du har rätt.
Men faktum kvarstår att förutom doldisen Ishamael handlar böckerna fram till Lord of Chaos i huvudsak bara om Samael. Visst, Lanfear med flera förekommer men inte alls på samma sätt som Sammael. Ta t ex den utstuderade grejen med Lia (hette hon tror jag) som kom bort i Shadar Logoth. Allt detta bara för att Rand inte skulle Lanselda Sammael i deras strid. Jag tror att hon fanns där bara för att mashadar skulle döda Sammael och inte Rand. (Sen fanns det ju en port intill också men RJ har själv sagt att Mashadar tog honom.)
Samael kan ha dödat Asmodean men kanske är vår vän RJ ännu hemligare än så. Jag tycker ju att hans inblandning i Cairien, Sammael+Lanfear+Rahvin plotten etc pekar ut honom men...
Jag sätter minst 50% på Ishamael. Om inte annat är Mats studie värd det.
Rätta mig om jag har fel men är inte ishe typ halv/hel galen lr något liknande tycker dom pratar ganska mycket om att han inte e riktigt frisk i kolan om man säger så han va väl kaxig för att han va starkast osv men åtminstone halvgalen mena ju alla på att han va, vad jag menar e va han kapabel att planera allt detta? Men som sagt finns ju åtminstone ca 50% chans att det va ishe för som sagt han vart ju lite sur över att Lews inte kände igen honom i prologen utan det tog ett tag osv och asmo kände ju igen sin mördare, men skulle det varit ishe varför bara döda rakt av han verkar ju enligt er vara en strategisk mästare inom spelet varföör försökte han inte få lite info av honom först som sagt han hade ju bara kunnat dra iväg med asmo eftersom att ingen ändå känner hanns kraft... men wtf man får väl reda på allt i de sista böckerna får ju vänta ett tag med tanke att jag läser dom svenska böckerna..
Jag tror inte Ishamael var galen. Han var beroende av att använda den sanna kraften och fick ta konsekvenserna av detta, en säker väg mot döden.
Användandet av den sanna kraften. Enligt Robert Jordan så är...
Steg 1, inget särskilt märks.
Steg 2, små svarta fläckar syns i ögonen när man använder den sanna kraften (saa)
Steg 3, mer svart i ögonen (mer saa), och även då man inte använder den sanna kraften.
Steg 4, eldögon och eldmun. Då är man på väg mot döden, inte galenskap
Steg 5, döden
Och enligt RJ i den senaste intervjun sa han att de Förlorade inte är odödliga än. De åldrades inte pga att de blev fängslade utanför väven (och tidens verkan). Men nu åldras de lika mycket som andra som kan använda kraften. Om den Svarte inte bryter sig fri, så kan han inte ge dem odödlighet, och de Förlorade kommer att dö en naturlig död om de inte dör innan dess. Enligt RJ så vet de Förlorade om detta, men de vet också att den Svarte kan pånyttföda, de har sett honom göra det tidigare (Age of Legends). Därför är de väl lite av odödliga ändå, men inte fullt ut.
Vad jag ville komma till är att jag tror att Ishamael hade förberett allting för en pånyttfödelse. Han visste att han var på väg mot döden i de första böckerna, då han var i sista stadiet innan döden. Han visste att han inte var odödlig. Så jag tror att han hade letat upp och hittat en bra kropp att pånyttfödas i. Han hade förberett allt åt sin pånyttfödelse och var inte rädd för döden. Han var säker på en ny chans med tanke på allt han gjort för den Svarte.
Kanske var det därför Ishamael gick så hårt åt att jaga Rand, ville döda honom, när han visste att en eventuell egen död inte skulle stoppa honom. Smärtsamt kanske, men ändå... Han skulle ju ändå dö snart pga av bieffekterna av för mycket användande av den sanna kraften.
Han gick väl inte direckt hårt åt att jaga rand utom möjligtvis i drömmen... Han försökte ju bara med skrämmsel och hot men när det inte lyckades så blev han dödad och sen så vet jag inte riktigt hur det va men utgav han sig inte för att vara den svarte själv oxå lr? det borde ju inte vara sådär poppis... men det kanske krävdes för o få all lydnad osv kanske va den svartes plan...
heh, he tror ja på när ja ser interjuven när han sa he!
så vit ja vet så säjer han nästan alldri rakt ut någonting!
å föresten, sto he int nånstans i Mats forskning att Ishy hadde Saa redan i AoL?
kan de inte betyda att ashmodean kände igen honnom pga det?
de e ju "allmänt" känt att Ishy "favoriserades" av DO, åså sa ju nån av de förlorade ( ja minns int var) att bara nån som har DO's lov kan använda TP.
Som sagt. Mr. Jordan är mycket skicklig på att ge svar som kan tolkas på flera sätt. Precis som hans böcker är skrivna.
Did Moridin ("death") take him?
Aaron Bergman asked this question at a post-POD book-signing in New York: "In particular, I asked whether "death" was just a pun on "Moridin". He said "oh, god no" quite disgustedly." Thankfully, that's the end of that theory.
Pun = ordlek
Dvs Jordan dödade Moridin/death-teorin. Inte att Moridin inte dödade Asmodean i övrigt.
Jag orkar inte leta upp ny fakta och uppdatera min "Ishamael did it"-teori, men här är den gamla i alla fall.
I övrigt vill jag tillägga, igen...
1) RJ har sagt att det ska vara "intuitively obvious" då Asmodean säger "YOU? NO!". Det är hans ord. Hur många av alla i hela världen som läst Wheel of Time har skrivit ner en teori som säger vem som dödade Asmodean med bara de första böckerna fram till TFOH?
2) Senare har RJ sagt att han tycker det är uppenbart, att det finns tillräckligt med bevis i hans böcker, när man har läst ut POD. Alltså bör man använda svensk bok 11-16 för att överhuvudtaget kunna styrka sin teori. För varför skulle han annars säga detta, om det finns tillräckligt med information fram till TFOH?
3) Hur hårt ska man ta RJ's "intuitively obvious" efter TFOH och "obvious" efter POD egentligen?
Trots RJ's ord så är det EN person som skickat rätt svar, med rätt bevisning, till honom. Bara EN person som sett det uppenbara!? Är det uppenbart då?
Vad är uppenbart? Är det något som är gemensamt för alla? Exempelvis om RJ säger att det är uppenbart, så är det det, punkt slut.
Eller är "uppenbart" individuellt? Kan det vara så att det som är uppenbart för ett geni (RJ), som dessutom vet svaret, inte alls är uppenbart för andra?
This message has been edited by Taim on Mar 19, 2004 10:18 PM
Lägga till i teorins slut att Asmodean kände igen Ishamael pga Saa och att Ishamael i COS (innan POD) faktiskt gör precis samma sak som han gjorde mot Rahvin mot Sammael som leder till Sammaels död också så. Dvs hjälper Rand från det dolda och övervakar så allt går enligt planerna. Case closed.
Motiv för Ishamael att göra allt detta? Eliminera konkurenter om titeln som Naeblis. Genom att krossa Sammael gänget säkrade han ju titeln och det är bara Demandred kvar som kan hota, men han verkar ju inte göra nått vettigt. Bara springa runt i skoga och inte känna igen Aes Sedaier och Ashamaner utan att de presenterar sig med namn och titel (dummaste jag läst).
btw, det kan lika gärna vara så att Demandred ligger bakom Taim och Ishamael vet om detta och dödar Asmodean för att underlätta detta och för att Asmodean möjligen skulle kunnat känna igen Aginor återfödd vilket kom i nästa led och som var en bekräftat spion åt Ishamael. Jag har en gnagande känsla av att det finns sätt att känna igen forsaken som återföds utan att de presenterar sig, annars borde det vara en taktisk brilliant ide att bara döda sig själv och infiltrera fienden med den nya kroppen under AOL, men det gjordes inte av någon anledning. På lite sikt ska jag luska lite i om inte Lews vansinnesbrott då Rand tycker att han vill döda alla Ashamaner är kopplade till antingen Dashiva eller någon annan forsaken närvarande och inte allt vara till män som leder kraften vilket Rand tror.
Jag tror inte Nae'blis titeln har varit en öppen fråga för DO dock. Han har sagt till de olika Forsaken att de kan bli Nae'blis bara för att de ska göra som han säger snabbare. Ishy/Moridin har nog varit tänkt som Nae'blis från första början. Så motivet att Ishy/Moridin gör det för att bli Nae'blis håller ej.
och att det är så att Ishy var tänkt som Naeblis från början är lätt att inse om man ser hur de andra Forsaken som dött och kommit tillbaka har blivit behandlade. Aginor och Balty har inte direkt fått några dunderkroppar o så, Lanfear är en "puppet" som bara lyder o så helt plötsligt kommer Moridin som värsta suoer killen o bara tar över allt på en gång. Killen dog ju hur fort som helst i början av serien och ändå får han best behandling av DO. Varför? Jo för att han varit Nae'blis hela jävla tiden.
Tror också DO har använt Nae'blis-posten till att få de andra Förlorade att göra det där lilla extra. Den posten har nog varit tilltänkt Ishamael redan från början.
Tilltänkt är en sak och det håller jag med om och det vet nog de andra forsaken också. Men skulle nån av de andra forsaken helt plötsligt börja lyckas bättre än Ishamael kan nog hans Naeblispost ryka snabbare än kvickt, och det vet också alla om, så Ishamael har definitivt motiv att göra sig av med Sammael/Lanfear gruppen som faktiskt kunde ha lyckats och då snott Naeblisposten. Så enkelt kommer du inte undan den.
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