Hi! Fellow Papua New Guineans, democracy is alive and well on this board. The issues of PNG High Commission has just began and assure you more is coming and get ready to chew on them. Number one, Can the PNG High Commission disclose to the PNG community in ACT and the government how they have spent the K38,000.00 that was intended for the 30th PNG Independence Anniversary.
For public consumption and for interest purposes.
This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Dec 7, 2005 8:55 AM This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Dec 7, 2005 8:43 AM
Long & short on stopping corruption in Papua New Guinea
November 16 2005, 4:59 AM
PNG democracy is the solution? My friend, if our democracy was working, these reports from the High Commmission would be an oddity. Instead, it is only the latest in a never ending series. Thus, turning to PNG democracy is NOT the solution. Developing the people's voice so that it becomes louder and more effective IS the solution, as it leads to a more effective democracy.
The reason why such incidents continue is that they are usually covered up, and no one gets punishment of any sort (including shaming). Public attention span is short lived allowing the corrupt to happily begin their next project.
The reason why these incidents can be easily covered up is that there is no accountability on public officials to behave.
Accountability comes through many sources. The greatest source in any modern society for a functioning government system is self accountability. Simply put, people in general have to feel the moral obligation to not cheat the public in order to enrichen themselves. This attitude can be developed through religion but in developed countries, it develops often by nothing more than personal convictions that were achieved when they were kids and taught by their mum and dad about right and wrong, with a good belt as reinforcement when neee.
There will never be enough money to hire enough accountants, watch dog officers, etc to make sure that people stay in line, spend money properly, etc. No laws can ever be made tight enough that people do not find a legal way around them. These have not been the solutions in developed countries nor will it be PNG's solution.
Thus, the only alternative to correct these measures in the longrun is self accountability, developed when one is young. If Christians spend too much time shouting Jesus Jesus and everlasting life to their kids, and spend very little time teaching in detail what the 10 commandments mean in how one conducts themselves in everyday life, then being a Christian by itself will not lead to self accountability.
Self accountability takes a generation and more to spread through a population. Until which time that self accountability develops in our society, the only way to cut down on incidents like we see at the High Commmission in Canberra is to punish those involved.
How can those who abuse the public trust be investigated and punished if found guilty? Our current justice system rarely reaches out to politicians and political appointees, we all can see that. Virtually none go before the criminal justice system. Rarely they get refered to the ombudsman and the usual punishment (losing one's job) is rubbish. Thus, we cannot at the present time rely on the PNG system to punish the culprits. We can not expect them to get any more than a slap on the wrist from our government. The current system guarantees that the corrupt will be left free to pursue their next job and their next corruption opportunity.
Thus, PNG right now, with its current democracy and justice system, is acting as poor deterent.
PNG is like Philippines in this respect. Philippinos have learned to make high level wrongdoers accountable by shouting names of the accused in the streets and the cities, shaming these people before one and all until not only the culprits get the message and never pull another stunt like that again, but all citizens witness the shame and have second thoughts about their own corrupt activities that they may be involved in. One incident of public shaming is not enough, it requires a mindset that anyone caught using public resources for personal benefit will be shamed.
Shaming should be nothing new to us in PNG. Shaming in traditional times was the ultimate form of punishment, more effective than anything except death. But we have apparently forgotten this technique in modern times, unlike the Philippinos.
Until public shaming of public officials engaging in wrongdoing begins in PNG, we will continue in the same endless circle we have been going in for to many years.
There are 2 vehicles for public shaming used in other societies, one being the media and the other being the people themselves taking to the streets as in the Philippines.
In PNG, our newspapers, radio and television help corruption by not naming names faster and in larger letters. The internet can be considered a form of media. The only internet media that I see is effective in fighting corruption is that masalai newsletter about forestry corruption. In pngscape, people do not name names, not allowed to name names or afraid to name names for whatever reason. The bottom line is that no names helps to promote corruption.
We the public also help corruption by not demanding that names come out, and contributing as we can to getting those names out.
We the public will not become motivated to shout people's names from the tops of our houses and cover the airwaves with our rage unless the media, including internet, provides us with enough information on both sides of the story so we can reach a decision in our minds. The allegations have to come out strong and clear, and more than once in all our media. right now our newspapers hardly follow up on anything. If they were to do so, the accused always have opportunity to reply back to the charges in the pages of newspaper, radio, internet, or tv. We certainly read denials all the time from our public officials.
After the public debate in the media we the public then become empowered enough with information to make a decision and take action. Guilty parties are shamed, just like they are shamed in Australia, America, and anyplace else outside of the formal justice system.
This process of public shaming is the only thing that will be effective at stopping corruption in PNG until which time as we finally get a PNG formal justice system that works effectively enough to deter corruption. If the public decides guilty after hearing both sides of the story, then it ts the public who plays the greatest role in public shaming, rather than the media. Because the public outcry enhances and reinforces the media to take bold steps.
Remember too that in the case of public officials that in the developed countries the hint of wrongdoing is as bad as wrongdoing. When you represent the public, there can be no doubts of your integrity. Many public officials in the UK have resigned after being investigated and shamed in the press with reinforcement from public outcry. Whether or not they are actually guilty is immaterial. What counts is that you have a squeaky clean image if you want to represent public interests.
In this case of funny doings at different levels at the PNG High Commmission in Canberra, the public and the media have not even taken the first step, which is to name names.
We have not even taken Step 1 if we believe strongly in doing what we can as citizens to stamp out unethical and corrupt activities by public officials.
Until names are named in the PNG High Commission fiasco, we are helping corruption.
BK - I just made a sarcastic comment, but thanks for the essay. I don't know these individuals in the PNG High Comm. well to make any judgement from this public forum regarding these allegations so you name them if you have all the facts. What if those people making the allegations are also at fault? The appointments of High Comm. were made by the PNG Gov't and probably Common Sense Artist and his supporters are Govt people too. So if one unzip his trousers, pulls his thermal underwear and under pants down they all stuck-up at his ankles - one pile and you know the rest....eheehehheh. Kind of a vicious cycle within. Bad enough for PNG.
Sorry to dissapoint you guys...I am dumb so bear with me the erratic comments.
You make a good point - we can never tell at first if those alleging the problems are making it up or not until the whole issue gets blown into the open for a very, very public discussion. Then let all the chips fall where they may and most sensible people can figure out who was telling the truth and who was not!!!
I really can not understand why you have decided to attack the current High Commissioner in the manner you have. He is just an appointee of your government. A pre-screening exercise took place in PNG and then Australia to check the man's credentials and all the other concerns you raised. Surely, if they thought that your concerns, and other similar ones, were serious, went against good governance, and national security; surely he would not have been appointed to the post...don't you think? I can not see how complaining about it now will improve the work of the PNG High Commission in Canberra. Let's work together with the High Commissioner and do our two-toeas worth for our country, irrespective of the political, regional (or whatever)agendas we may have.
High Commission is an embarrassment to all PNGeans
November 16 2005, 11:18 AM
I really can not understand why you have decided to attack the current High Commissioner in the manner you have.
UNETHICAL AND CORRUPT ALLEGATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE. THERE HAS NOT BEEN SUFFICIENT ADDRESSING OF THE COMPLAINTS. NO ONE TRUSTS OUR GOVERNMENT TO CARRY OUT AN OBJECTIVE INVESTIGATION MUCH LESS PUNISH THOSE RESPONSIBLE. WE ALREADY HAVE TOO MANY INVESTIGATIONS WHOSE RECS WERE NEVER IMPLEMENTED.
He is just an appointee of your government.
EVEN MORE THE REASON TO BE SUSPICIOUS.
A pre-screening exercise took place in PNG and then Australia to check the man's credentials and all the other concerns you raised.
THE HIGH COMMISSIONER IS VERY WELL AWARE OF THE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED ALREADY. IF HE FAILS TO ACT, THIS CALLS HIS OWN CHARACTER, BACKGROUND, ETEC INTO QUESTION. ACTIONS TALK. WHERE ARE THE HIGH COMMMISSIONERS ACTIONS TO CLEAN UP SHOP?
Surely, if they thought that your concerns, and other similar ones, were serious, went against good governance, and national security; surely he would not have been appointed to the post...don't you think?
NO. I LOVE MY COUNTRY. I DO NOT TRUST MY GOVERNMENT. MY GOVERNMENT IS TOTALLY AND UTTERLY CORRUPT.
I can not see how complaining about it now will improve the work of the PNG High Commission in Canberra.
THAT IS OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW DEMOCRACIES WORK. IF NOTHING IMPROVES THROUGH THE COMPLAINING THEN THIS IS CLEAR INDICATION THAT NOT ENOUGH COMPLAINING, LOUDLY ENOUGH, IS TAKING PLACE. THIS SUGGESTS THAT NEW STRATEGIES ARE IN ORDER TO BRING THIS ISSUE INTO HIGHER PROFILE.
Let's work together with the High Commissioner and do our two-toeas worth for our country, irrespective of the political, regional (or whatever)agendas we may have.
MY TWO TOEA'S WORTH FOR MY COUNTRY IS BEST SERVED BY QUESTIONING MY UTTERLY CORRUPT GOVERNMENT. MY AGENDA IS LIKE THAT OF MANY PAPUA NEW GUINEANS WHO ARE FED UP WITH THE UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR, THE BEHIND THE DOOR MISUSE AND MISAPPROPRIATION OF THE PUBLIC RESOURCES (INCLUDING MONEY), AND THE NON-ACCOUNTABILITY OF OUR APPORINTED OFFICIALS. WHICH INCLUDES THE NON ACCOUNTABILITY OF THE HIGH COMMMISSIONER IN CANBERRA.
My response to your issue with CAPS in postings is as follows!
We desperately need for our future, Papua New Guineans with sophisticated management skills.
"Management" is a strategy, and the best managers invariably are NOT those who tie themselves up with hard and fast rules and regulations that they follow in a black-and-white matter. Instead, the best managers are those who learn to take a general policy and flexibly apply it in the best way fitting each individual situation, while maintaining high ethical standards. In other words, they follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
As a moderator, you're thrust into a management position!
You have the "absolutely no CAPS" rule set before you. That's the letter of the law. However, I suspect that the spirit of this rule was to avoid postings in which CAPS LOCK where used for shouting at people, thus causing offence.
I used CAPS LOCK for quite another reason - to set off another poster's words with my reply to those words, ie to visually make the comment and my response separation clearer.
You're now in the position that all managers face, wantok: Will you simply follow the rule, nonstop, or do you have (and do you want) the flexibility of ruling harmoniously?
I haven't a clue how important my posting is to leave on, versus how much MORE important it is to rigorously ensure that no CAPS LOCK grace pngscape.
No insults towards another on this thread, please. Attacking PNG High Commissioner to Australia is all very well, but have anyone of you thought about writing to him with your views on this topic?
All very well debating on this forum but it will get you no result without contacting the person concerned. You might get a better result.
I think the experience of any who have written complaint letters about such embarassing issues as this one find that their letters are either thrown in the rubish bin and ignored or you get one of those form replies like "we are investigating the matter" when actually they are doing nothing.
The point is that delivering complaints without having any power in back of you, ensures that your complaints will be ignored. I suspect most everyone on this board is in exactly that position right now - big concern but no power to our voices. Thus writing letters to the High Commissioner is doomed to failure.
Lesson: Complaints to those alleged to be involved in wrongdoing or in covering it up go nowhere unless you have power in back of you.
One of the best ways that students and others who feel they have no power in such situations can be effective is in working to drag wrongdoing into the public domain and to the attention of many. Newspaper articles don't energise the public to take action as well as people talking with each other, whether in person or in print. That can set the stage for a much bigger public outcry, which finally shows true people power. At that point, the accused can no longer ignore us.
I see that this discussion board helps concerned citizens gain that power. First off it allows people of equal concerns about the direction PNG is heading to come together informally and energise each other. The more we talk about this issue, the more it cannot be swept under the carpet by the powers that be. The more postings and information that appears on this board about what is really going on at the high commission, the higher a profile it assumes which then brings it to the attention of more people.
If it happens that there is someone of great importance on this board maybe they will see the discussion and approach the high commissioner themselves. That will be much better than us writing letters. You even mentioned about pngscape admin sending a copy of another thread on this issue to the High Commissioner to alert them of their concern. Not only you, but others of us can do the same-print these threads and mail them not only to the High Commissioner but also to the newspapers, and even to other important people. That kind of mailing will carry more power than any of us writing individually and privately because the accused will then see that their behaviour is being discussed in public, not by 1 or 2 individuals but by many. Of course they will not like it when they find this out but it is high time that our PNG public officials learn that by taking the jobs they have they ARE accountable to the people. We have every right to question them in public and find out what is going on.
Finally, I am learning already more details on this board than I have gotten from the newspaper. That shows this board is even better than our newspapers and serves a very important function that is badly needed in our information scarce society. The more details on what's going on in the High Commission in Canberra, the better it is I reckon! I would like to learn more than I know at present and the more postings that give information the better.
Public officials who do no wrong but are silent about the wrongdoing of others are as guilty of corruption as the wrongdoers themselves.
Right now in PNG corrupt and misappropriating people in government have enough power to squash us as individuals. But the more we organise, starting in a simple way by discussing these issues and not letting them go away on this board, and later finding ways to organise to demonstrate our people power more strongly, the more effective caring people will be in turning around our society.
Those who let themselves be intimidated by the powers that be are to blame for corruption as much as those who are corrupt. Until there is much better participation and organisation within our society to speak out against corruption, opportunities such as this discussion board are probably the best starting points available.
Re: Canberra High Commission sex scandal issues November
November 21 2005, 10:41 AM
To anonymous,
"You bring up some very good points, thanks a lot."
Well after reading your thread, I know where you are coming from.
I rang the High Commissioner's Officer to speak to him, he was not available at that time, so I am still waiting for his call. When he returns my call, I will try and have open discussion on a few things concerning Canberra Office plus other things.
In the meantime I have a drafted letter ready to post by "snail mail".
7mile.
This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Nov 21, 2005 10:42 AM
Re: Canberra High Commission sex scandal issues November
November 21 2005, 11:41 AM
I hope you are one of those rare activists. your idea is excellent. I'm told the high comm is already aware of this discussion but perhaps not.
We do what we can do if we really care. From the standpoint of bringing up these issues,if they are not based on fact they can always be dealt with effectively by providing evidence to the contrary. If issues are not brought up they never get debated. Even in the current situation where open debate may be dangerous (for one's career), it can stimulate the kinds of actions that you propose. And that is important don't you think?
Frm the standpoint of the issues themselves (which i didn't bring up actually), the High Comm is very used to being a figurehead from his past experiences. While that works when you're part of big companies, our PNG institutions are small and requre active, hands on management. The manager cannot run around meeting important people and 'expect' his staff to behave. Nor can he expect things to run themselves. That doesn't mean the high comm should turn into a dictator (that won't work either) but it does mean laying out the rules strongly and squarely in front of the staff to set a foundation for how people are expected to behave, rather than hiding inside the big office and saying nothing. Active management of our relatively small PNG institutions also means jumping over those just underneath you to observe and talk with the bottom of the ladder and just made sure the chains of command are intact.
Sadly, Rabbie Namaliu is an example of a horrible manager, who only by luck hasn't been dragged into his own sex scandals by the behaviour of his staff. It is obvious Rabbie thinks he is above being a hands on manageer and you can go right to the passports line and see the painful result of that kind of attitude!
Its sickening to read every day at least something concerning the PNG High Commission Canberra in the PNGscape. Nothing else but "strongpela gossip" long bakarapim PNG HC opis na ol wok man na meri.
The current issues raised against the PNG High Commission in my view have gone too far, in personally attacking the High Commissioner and family. Let us remember that, the PNG High Commissioner Canberra is a duly appointed person by cabinet and or the Government of PNG. And I'm pretty sure that, the process of such appointment have been duly exhausted and satisfactorily adhered to by law. Any query concerning his appointment should be directed to the appropriate authorities, if such request will ever be entertained.
So please, leave the PNG HC Cnaberra alone!
This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Nov 16, 2005 8:23 PM
It would be more constructive my friend if you would say something that would allow these allegations of sexual activities at the High Commission, or the alleged mis use of the independence day funds to be further explored.
You must understand that a totally corrupt person could write every single word you did and post it. Unfortunately, corruption and coverup is so common in PNG today that there is no way to tell whether you or the High Commissioner has done something wrong or is in back of a coverup or if everyone is completely innocent.
There ARE allegations and they are only allegations. However as a public servant, I would think that the High Commissioner needs to reply to those allegations in some form.
Maybe you have voiced your concern in good faith however please understand that in a democracy there are checks and balances on every public official. Our government fails miserably to provide any checks and balances, its full of corruption, payoffs, and wantok system.
It is only for that reason, I feel, that this is a good place to make and discuss allegations about the High Commissioner in Canberra. That being said, once the High Commissioner agrees to an open investigation and not like the hide it on a bookshelf investigations our government normally carries out, that there will be little need to continue talking about this issue here on pongscape.
I can't help but notice that every single one of the postings that defend the High Commissioner never address even one of the allegations nor do they address any of the discussions concerning why it is important to discuss this topic.
I have never seen such an introverted person - so naive, a little mad and a loose canon. Seeing such comments raised against HC, his family shows how wicked this person is. You may come in different colours but be assured you are the same person. It is simple to track you down with the very words that you use. You have used different pen-names but I can pick you up. I am sorry for you becos you are expired. There is nothing you can contribute but a heart full of venoms. Wicked people cannot last long.
Not one reply to the allegations that have been made not by me at all but others on this board using the other names?
Not one reply to the rationale for questioning this so called sex romp in the high commission, plus the more recently aired question of what was the K30,000 for independence celebration activities used for?
Why are you avoiding simple answers to simple questions???
Re: high level coverups involve ignoring questions?
November 16 2005, 2:41 PM
When will the High Commissioner act to immediately terminate:
The diplomat involved in the sex romp is the first secretary at the Canberra High Commision in Canberra.
Apparently the reason why he hasn't been recalled yet is because he the Dept of Foreign Affairs secretary's tambu ...
When will an accounting be made of the 30th anniversary independence celebration accounting?
Surely these are fair questions for a citizen to ask of his public servants? And surely it is fair to ask those questions as much here as anywhere, since asking the persons involved will lead to stonewalling and more silence?
This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Nov 16, 2005 8:26 PM
Re: high level coverups involve ignoring questions?
November 16 2005, 2:56 PM
I think all further postings should stick to discussions around the original questions ie
(1) Can the PNG High Commission disclose to the PNG community in ACT and the government how they have spent the K38,000.00 that was intended for the 30th PNG Independence Anniversary?
These are reasonable questions that can be focused on and discussed politely without name calling.
This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Dec 7, 2005 8:57 AM This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Dec 7, 2005 8:47 AM
"The money was given by the Government not by you. The Communities in ACT are well informed except you."
Was that money for Canberra alone, or was it to be distributed to other states in Australia to PNG organizations for the 30th Aniversary of Independence? The amount given is rather a lot for just Canberra.
In North Korea, Little dictator kim il jong is free to answer to no one when they complain.
Kim il jong doesnt have to answer to his people when they complain. He can remain silent til the end of time.
Kim il jong doesnt have to tell anyone how he spent public TAX MONEY. He can spend it any way he wishes and no one has the right to question.
And Kim il jong is free to not only allow sex capes in his high commmissions but can actually particiate without any fear of complaint or demands that truth come out.
That is why North Korea would be a wonderful home for those who have problems with any public requests to the High Commissioner in Canberra.
Our public officials are public. That means they can be challenged in public. That means their financial affairs become issues of public concern. And as tax payers or children of tax payers, the public has every right to demand to know how money was spent, even small amounts.
Those public officials who continue to act like Kim il jong, but stay in Canberra rather than moving to North Korea, stand out by their image that they're better than the rest of us.
Happy to see your government-funded education is teaching you something! Albeit totally irrelevant to Papua New Guinea but anyway, who cares: you 'sound' smart! chuckle
So far as Australia is concerned, His Excellency IS Papua New Guinea and so is that piece of land over there at Yarralumla. As for wantok bilong yu in Pyongyang...
Again your government-funded education makes you sound smart so rest assured, we're all proud of you and of where our country is headed: DPRK! LOL.
"High Commissioner is answerable to the Govermment of PNG - Not anyone else"
Well honey in a democracy the people are sovereign so yes, as a public servent he is answerable to us. Maybe indirectly, but he is still answerable to the people of PNG.
"The money was given by the Government not by you"
And where does that money come from?? The taxpayers perhaps, or OUR natural resources maybe??
"The Communities in ACT are well informed except you"
If the community in ACT are so well-informed, why don't they fill us in on the happenings?? As a previous poster has noted, we're just asking a few simple questions here !!
Ol kainkain toktok iwok long sut igo ikam na yet, dispela het bilong yu ipas olgeta long wanpela tingting tasol. Yu wanem kain man/meri na Bikman Hai Komisina bai bekim toktok bilong yu long hia. Yu imas paol olgeta. Ples klia. Olsem na noken tokaut yu husat nogut bai yumi olgeta save yu wanem kain longlong ikam stap long hia.
Ating imas olsem yu pilim pen long yu no kisim sans wantaim tupela husat i paol long Haus Tambaran olsem na yu wok long sikarap long arere istap. Wantok o, turangu, noken belhat. Diring kolwara tasol na bel bilong yu bai kol liklik. Na sapos yu nogat ais bokis long kolim wara bilong yu, kalap igo insait long Wara Burley Griffin na go olgeta -em nau bel bilong yu bai kol olgeta.
Na tu gutpela olsem yu no putim nem bilong yu long dispela hap long wanem ol toktok bilong i rong olgeta na taim ol narapela ibin traiim long steretim yu, yu save strongim kona yet. Stap olsem tasol. Nogat mi painimaut yu husat bai mi nekim yu gut turu. Het i pen pinis long dispela liklik maus na 'tingting' bilong yu.
Gavman i bilong pipol. Em i no kain bikman olsem kin kwin. Hevi bilong kantri yumi kamap olsem ol bikman i gat tingting ol i king na ol i no mas bekim askim bilong ol pablik manmeri. Sapos Hai Komisioin i gat dispela kain tingting orait em fri long go bek long ples na kamap king bilong ples olsem Francis Ona.
Useful information to this discussion would include-
1/ When did the High Commissioner learn about the sex party in the High Commission office.
2/ How many days after the high Commissioner learned about the sex party did he report it to his superiors.
3/ What is the normal procedure within the PNG government on dealing with an issue such as this.
4/ Who has the authority (starting with the High Commissioner if relevant) to sack someone for using the High Commission in Canberra as a sex romp area.
5/ How fast could an investigation be conducted, completed, and justice served if there were not unseen obstacles put in the way?
6/ Is the Bougainvillean involved still being employed by either the High Commission, and is he still in Canberra?
Some of you maybe have other questions you can ask.
Foren Minista itokaut pinis olsem ol lain long Mosbi i wokim wok painimaut long dispela ol asikim bilong yu. Ino yu tasol i laik save long as bilong dispela hevi!
Olsem wanem long yu na yu wok long strongim kona yet long pairapim nem bilong ol lain nambaut. Sapos yu pilim olsem yu wokim pinis wokpainimaut olrait tokaut gut long mipela olgeta wanem samting yu painim na tu, putim nem bilong yu olsem bai ol lain husait ino wanbel long dispela wokpainimaut bilong yu iken toktok wantaim yu.
Sapos nogat, sindaun isi olsem mipela olgeta na wetim toksave ikam long Mosbi. Sapos yu pilim olsem bel bilong yu i kirap olgeta na yu ino inap long sindaun isi, olrait moa beta yu lusim dispela kompiuta masin bilong yu na go bek long peles na halivim ol lain husat i wokim dispela wokpainimaut. Dispela maus bilong yu i siwit turu olsem na ating bai yu iken halivim ol turangu long peles bai iken pinisim ripot bilong ol kwiktaim.
Yu nogat skulwok long wokim o? Westim moni bilong Gavman ikam stap long hia na karai istap olsem ol wiwi long banis pik.
U'pla ol sumatin stap long Canberra, please concentrate lo skul bilong u na maski politics nambaut lon' ol lain long High Comm. You are wasting the money and time and resources!!
Olgeta mipela i PNG citizens. Responbility bilong lukautim kantri na exercise our rights as citizens is the first priority. Everything else comes underneath. Maybe that wasn't true for your generation and maybe thats why we're in such a mess now. Its worth a thought.
Yu lukim. Planti long ol eduketed lain bilong yumi taim ol i kamap bikman ol i bihainim tingting we ol i ken stap antap na luk daun long oldeta yumi. Ol i pisim ol i mas stap tasol na olgeta wok ananit bai go gut. Em olsem tumbuna tingting we ol kanaka lukim ol waitman i stap long opis na sindaun long sia na ridim o raitim ol pepa tasol, na ol kanaka laik kamap olsem.
Mi skelim gut na mi no lukim wanpela taim we dispela hai komisen lida man i bin tok aut strong long morality na ethics. Mi no lukim wanpela taim we em autim nem bilong wanpela korap tasol yumi save em i stap antap na em mas harim planti stori long ol korap pasin bilong ol narapela. Bilong wanem dispela Bougavinville i mekim dispela kain pamuk pasin wantaim narapela staf? Em bikos bikpela lidaman em i no tok aut gut long olgeta staff bilong em long ethics na wanem kain pasin i nogat ples long Hai komisen. Dispela kain bikman i pasim maus long ol bikpela hevi istap long kantri bilong yumi ya em opinim doa we ol bikhet lain i mekim kain wok long bagarapim nem bilong olgeta yumi PNG.
Husait lidman i pasim maus i wankain olsem husait lain laik wokim ol korap samting. Wok bilong dispela tupela kain man i pas na korap pasin i go het. Dispela hai komisen lidaman em i wokim rong o nogat mi no save. Tasol mi stret olsem hai komisen lidaman em wanpela kain man we em laik ranwe na hait ananit long haus taim hevi i kamap. Niuspepa i wokim stori na hai komisen lida em i tok wanem? Sapos em porait long tokaut olsem mausman bilong gavman em fri long tokaut olsem pravait sitisen.
Mi nogat respek long dispela kain lidaman husait em pilim sindaun long opis na bihainim ol bikman stail tasol em i rot long rausim ol hevi bilong kantri. Hai Komisen i no lidaman long tok strong long agensim korapsen mi pilim. Em bilong wanem mi no gat respek long en. Ol lidaman no ken tok yumi mas respektim ol. Nogat. Ol i mas mekim wok nas respek bai kam sapos ol i soim tru stail bilong lida.
Mi lukim olsem yu imas belhat na belhat steret? Wanem samting iwokim na yu gat dispela belhat insait long yu an yu bagarapim ol man na ol meri bilong ol na ol woklain nambaut?
Samting mi tok ol lain long Mosbi iwokim wokpainimaut bilong ol istap. Yu toktok long 'democracy' etc na dispela kain ol wokpainimaut em isave kam aninit long dispela 'democracy'. Olgeta samting igat rot bilong ol yet na taim rot i pinis, bai yumi olgeta iken save long as bilong dispela hevi.
Yu pipia sumatin tasol yu husat na Hai Komisina bai givim answer long yu pastaim long em givim long Gavman?! Nogat het! Yu mas ting yu bikman a?! LOL.
Mi tok pinis olsem ino yu tasol igat dispela ol asikim. Tasol dispela galip het bilong yu ino save les long karai istap. Yu gat pikinini tu? Pasin bilong bilong yu em olsem tasol, taim ol ilaikim kol wara o wanem.
Sindaun isi. Wetim ripot. Sapos nogat, go bek long Mosbi na halivim ol. Olgeta samting igat rot na ino gutpela long yu sikarap long arere istap taim dispela wokpainimaut iwok long go het yet.
Yu tok wetim gavman process? Sori mi laik lap lap na lap pundaun.
Gavman i bruk. Yu save, mipela save, olgeta yumi save.
Gavman i korap. Yu save, mipela save olgeta yumi save.
Nau why you tok wetim ripot. Mipela lukim planti handred ripot bruk korap gavman bilong mipela i wokim pinis.
Wanem banis istap namel long rausim tupela koap nau?
Government doesn't follow its own process and procedure 99% of the time anyway. I got to say the government has zero credibility. zero as in nating.
Sapos yu laik sindaun long sait bilong gavman yu mas save gavman i gat zero credibility for doing anything properly.
Mi laik askim yu masta. Jimmy Maladina istap long kalabus nau?
All these arguments are boring. There is no single thread of truth in all the allegations raised against our High Commissioner. He is an employee of PNG Government; selected by the Government; and now he is here as our High Commissioner. Why bombard him again and again with these personal vendettas when the right person to raise your allegations to is the Sec. for Foreign Affairs. If he is implicated as you have alleged, don't you think someone else should do the investigation! Olosem asikim tasol yu yet isave long dispela pasin. However it seems that you are fighting with this High Commissioner; in that case, apply for his position.
Oh and your views on the Government as corrupt....Well hmmmmm Prime Minister, Chief Secretary, National Planning, Treasury ......hhmmmmm. You are right...this Government is corrupt. I agree with you 100%%%%%%%.......
Dispela term 'common sense' i apply tasol long mipela sampela ino olsem ol kain husat i save sindaun long arere na karai istap. Korap o nogat, ol samting igat rot.
Olosem ating moa beta yumi noken yusim dispela hap tok 'common sense', tasol yusim 'kanaka' na 'savelain'. Yumi ol savelain na turangu wantok ya em kanaka. Long wanem i save karai tasol na westim moni bilong gavman long kam sindaun long hia ken na long wankain taim iwok hat long bagarapim woklain bilong gavaman. Em imas istap long Ostreilia longpela taim tumas olsem na em paol olsem kantri bilong yumi igat rot bilong em yet an long hia, ol igat rot bilong ol yet.
Nau mi laik asikim steret: husat turu wok long toromoi dispela ol toktok agensim Maus Man o Hai Komisina bilong yumi?
Turu tumas mi laik save nau tasol nem bilong em/ol. Pastaim mi ino bin save bisi tasol nau yet tingting bilong mi ipas gut turu wantim turangu lapun ya...
Re: Pasim Maus Sekuriti i kam............................
November 18 2005, 3:56 PM
HOLIDEI NAU
Hey yumi go pilai long Lake Burley Griffith long dispela wiken. BBQ iorait tu olsem krismas tu na taim blong hamamas. Olgeta PNGian Kommuniti long Canberra we? Putim sampela toksave blong sosol kems yah. Mi les lon stap natin lon haus.
tingting long narapela santing nau, Krismas bai kam klostu!!!!
November 19 2005, 8:49 AM
Ating planti ol manmeri ya ol i no hamamas long lukim sampela daunim nem bilong hai komisena. Larim dispela bikman i stap sapos em ino laik givim stronpela lo long ol wokman o em laik westim liklik moni bilong independens pati, laik bilong en em i no samting bilong yumi long challengim. Em bikman ya, yumi mas respektim ol bikman ya, na sapos em laik pasim maus laik bilong em yah. Wok bilong em i no samting bilong yumi long challengim. Plis yupela olgeta mas lus tingting long olgeta samting bilong dispela tok nogut.
[quote]I think all further postings should stick to discussions around the original questions ie
(1) Can the PNG High Commission disclose to the PNG community in ACT and the government how they have spent the K38,000.00 that was intended for the 30th PNG Independence Anniversary? [/quote]
I was invited to the Canb PNG HC 30th and I can easily guess where the money went. I'm surprised it wasn't AU38K.
Marquee hire - setup, removal, heating, etc - not cheap in Canberra.
The food and drink for guests.
Event waiting staff, the event team who did the food service etc.
Extra security - many diplomats were present, thus increased security.
There was also a lot of work done in the grounds tidying up, planting and improving the general appearance.
I have never seen the figures, so don't know exactly how much was spent on what, but i can and will say that it was a fantastic event enjoyed by many.
xxx has "* A LONG TRACK RECORD OF MISCONDUCT: Was regularly manhandled and thrown out of the city’s premier hotel and gambling joints for his continuous drunk and disorderly behaviour and for having arguments with security guards after gambling sessions with the former head of mission (Renagi Lohia)"
Dunno what planet you're from buddy, but in CBR if you cause trouble at a club you get banned and issued with a trespass notice if you attempt to return. I'm unsure as to how he could have been 'regularly' thrown out of anywhere. If you want to test this, simply go to the city's premier hotel and act in a manner you are accusing Joe of. See what happens.
"* COMPROMISE OF PNG NATIONAL SECURITY: Had close links with two Australian residents who come from an Asian country which have been repeatedly accused of supporting international terrorism"
That's quite a leap from "diplomat serving overseas meets with foreign nationals" I know a bloke from Iraq. Does that make me a terrorist?
And before you call me a "HC mafia crony" or other rubbish, I've only met the guy once, and I'm not employed by or politically linked to the PNG HC. I have been in there a number of times and know most of the staff quite well. I'm also not a govt official or anything like that.
In the real world, any actions that could potentially cause embarrassment to a country are usually handled quietly behind closed doors. This isn't due to corruption, coverups or any of the other bizarre allegations made here. It's a matter of reducing any possible loss of face to that country.
Tho I do know for a fact the HC is taking some of these allegations seriously and there is an investigation underway. Pick a country, any country, and try to find an incident where officials released information during an ongoing investigation.
The only criticism I will make of the PNG chancery is that the visitors office was much more attractive, welcoming and promoted PNG better before the upgrades were done. (they had to remodel the entryway for security reasons - too many loonies in canberra. but anyone reading these pages can spot that ;->)
This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Dec 7, 2005 9:06 AM This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Dec 7, 2005 8:52 AM
Re: High Level Coverups Involve Ignoring Questions
November 21 2005, 12:39 PM
This is a response to Anonymous stated comments regarding above.
You asked the question of, when will the PNG High Commissioner Canberra act to immediately terminate the diplomat, First Secretary at the PNG High Commission ffice Canberra, who was involved in a sex romp?
The PNG High Commissioner Canberra cannot terminate the officer allegedly involved in a sex romp without an investigation having to be conducted into the allegations levelled against him. If there are substantial evidences or truth revealed by the investigation regarding the said allegations then the High Commissioner should do the right thing by making a recommendatory report to Head Quarters (Dept. Of Foreign Affairs) for the concerned officer's immediate recall and laying of appropriate disciplinary charges, that may lead to his termination depending on the Secretary, Dept. Foreign Affairs bid of the case.
An immediate investigation into all allegations discussed by you should be anticipated; and should not be delayed particularly given the nature of the allegations being serious. What is the halt up? Is there anywhere that Head Quarters (Dept. of Foreign Affairs) can be reminded to arrange a swift investigation into the PNG HC Canberra current saga? Sometimes, people deliberately delay things in order that whatever allegations and other highly discussed matters will be forgotten and written off in good faith....as they always say that time can make the difference....!
Re: High Level Coverups Involve Ignoring Questions
November 21 2005, 12:46 PM
This is great information, unfortunate that it wasn't available earlier. Many thanks for input. One more question, I think many would be interested about-is that person SUSPENDED until the report is completed. If so, are they suspended with pay or without pay? Thanks again for that useful information, it is worth that all of us know these things trying to be responsible citizens.
Re: High Level Coverups Involve Ignoring Questions
November 21 2005, 2:03 PM
This is a response to Anonymous question of whether suspended officers are suspended with or without pay.
In a normal practice, suspension without pay can be effected if the offence committed by an officer is a serious offence committed within the duties of the very office which he/she occupies. On the other hand, a serious offence committed outside the duties of an office warranty a suspension with pay.
The above may apply to ordinary public servants who are not on contract. For contract officers, if they are alleged to have committed a serious offence or being in breach of the terms and condition of their contracts, they will be suspended with pay until to the period their cases are being determined. In such situation, the officer will be formally charged and accorded the opportunity to heard on the charges. The Departmental Head will make a recommendatory submission to the Secretary, Dept. of Personnel Management (DPM) his/her view after having deliberated on the response of the charged contract officer. The decision of the Secretary, Department of Personnel Management (DPM) is final on any contract matters. Any further redress can be done through the Courts of law.
Take it away! Yu win pinis! OUR Haus Tambaran is looking marvellous, and its great to see the renovations succesfully completed and it looks nice and new. I for one am proud of the way the Mission looks and it certainly feels very good to walk into it, after such a long time of the buliding just sitting there. There are some people who are not happy with some things that apparently happened at your office but as our Foreign Minister said, he's doing investigations into them. So have a nice holiday season with your family and loved ones. With all the headache of the last couple months you certainly deserve it! WanKantri.
I'm beginning to agree with what you say. I think it really shouldn't matter to any of us what is going on behind the scenes so long as a better job is done to keep those things covered up. And like you say, the haus tambaran looks impressive. Beautiful haus tambarans should always take higher priority in governance then whether the high commissioner is a good or a horrible manager. What counts in the end is the glitter, not the substance underneath. Toksave tasol.
He's now very well aware as a result of this uproar in newspapers etc that being a figurehead manager with his staff is simply not on. Hands on management involvement or else other embarrasing incidents await him further down the line.......................... toksave tasol
Totally agree with you. For the sake of foolishness let these discussions continue because someone out there is really in a deep **** ouhmmmn. Pardon me but that is the reality of shallow-minded individuals. Otherwise, HC has done a tremendous job since his six or so months here. As for those stupid allegations, well hmmmm ah what was I thinking of... wait I've got it...nogat buai, mutrus na ahemmm yumi ahhh pulim ol aahhh wet wet... karangi stori blong sutim rong nating. Kain olsem na yu wel yet olsem welpik. Husat isave tru tingting blong yu. Yu laikim posisen, turrrannguu em ihat liklik.
Latest from POM...PM Somare ikoros tumas long HC bilong yumi ino brifim em gut olosem igat wanpela sexist diplomat istap wantaim em na advaisim em. Em belhat belhat tu olosem haus tambaran ikamap olsem pamuk haus. Na tu, PM ikoros tumas olosem HC bilong yumi ino tok klia lon em olosem long medal list hem nem bilong sex patna bilong first secretary bilong em...dispela bun nating meri ya ibin stap tu...Na tu, PM ikoros olosem HC ino bin tok klia olosem nem bilong wanpela waitman em huset ibin wok olsem soldia bilong Australia long PNG na huset ibin kamap 'bestman' o wasman bilong marit bilong dispela kuru paul Defens advaisa bilong kantri bilong yupela istap tu. Dispela i soim olsem list medal lis em Satan ibin blesim.
Sem bilong Burley Griffin or yupela yet...long PNG.
Bikpela sem moa em PM bipo bilong Australia Gough Whitlam hem nem bilong em igo pas long dispela lis...
Ol bikman olsem Charles Lepani noken tingting ol i bikman tumas long wokim active management wantaim ol wokman. Days bilong figurehet status i pinis na pinis olgeta. Kirap kirap mr Lepani na wokim active management plis!
Sem Ya itok wanem gen ya....Difens adviser ikuru paul...olsem wanem gen ya...turagu i kenel rank ya...hau bai em kuru paul? Noken bagarapim em plis...
tasol itru olosem em tu imekim bikpela rong.....'bestman' bilong hem i soldia bilong Australia..em ino wok long PNG gavman liklik..long disevim medal. Mi bai rait igo long National Events Council, PM's Medal na Awot komiti na Defense Minister na Pita Ilau Komanda long chargim DA long dispela rong. Em imekim bikpela karanki tumas...Court Marshall ibai wetim em. Noken wari.
Good on the whole lot of you for "exposing corruption". I hope you fellow PNGeans are not corrupt yourselves. You guys are creative and flamboyant in critising others, but how do you follow that up with your actions. If you 'kick' the other guy out, can you do a better job - for those aspiring HCs or DHCs?
Em nau toktok em yupela ya or may I say 'mauswara'.
Hi Raon Tasol, yu tok tru olsem High Commission b'long yumi long hia i promotim sex romp yah? How nau yah? High Commissioner tu i go pass long dispela koap pasin long HC opis tu o nogut? Plis, noken putim tok olsem. Yu bagarapim em nogut turua yah. Yumi mas gat sampela respect long ol big man laka. Noken sutim tok we i nogat arere nating nating. Bipo yu sutim dispela kain stetmen, yu mas askim yu yet olsem sapos mi stap long su 'blong High Commissioner, bai pilim wanem sapos ol man wok long sutim kain kain stemen na komens ikam pas long mi? Tingim gut.
sapos mi stap lon su blong bigman ia - bai mi kikim ass blo displa man buin ia, Joe Nobetau i go bek long ples Pom - em stap na bangarapim nem blo PNG long hia .
Good Lord this posting comes from a supporter of our high Commissioner in Canberra or heaven forbid, from the high Commissioner himself?????????!!!!!!!
What? If a woman was awarded a medal under the table who was not qualified, that is corruption any way you look at it. I'd like to know what the name of this woman is. I wonder if she's not been one of those posting on this board in defence of Lepani.
Democratic process in stopping Canberra coverup according to Ghandi
November 27 2005, 6:32 PM
My friend, you've been watching too many movies. Of course the whistleblowers may be putting out information this board because of envy or jealousy. Isn't that true in any democracy. What is important is the process, not just in PNG but in any other country where people in power try to coverup incidents that are unethical or downright corrupt, and only public demand keeps that coverup from occuring.
I was reading about this process the last couple days from internet sites theres actually plenty of good info I've run across. It's quite obvious that you and the rest of the high commissioners gang of cheerleaders don't answer any of the allegations with substance but instead mock, attack or threaten. Well I was reading some comments by Mahatma Ghandi whose opponent was far more powerful than Charles Lepani. Ghandi gives good advice and a prediction of what the process is when people try to fight for justice, transparency and democracy. Ghandi says:
"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win! - Mahathma Ghandi
If we are to take Ghandi at his word, then those who are fighting to open the doors on what is going on in Canberra are finding themselves now at steps 2 and 3. First they were ignored. Now they are being threatened, laughed at, and attacked.
The whistleblowers will win only if they win over the evil attempts to cover up what has been happening at the High Commission. They will only win if they never give up, if they carry on despite your threats and mocking. They will win if they make a commitment to never give up, and to use new and more strategies to get the word out to a larger and larger PNG audience.
That is the lesson we learn from Ghandi on how to fight abuse of power by public officials in PNG. So far the reactions of people like yourself are showing that Ghandhi was a very intelligent and brilliant person in predicting how those trying to coverup or keep their power will fight back.
Recall that smart first assistant secretary to Port Moresby right away and serve his termination letter on his arrival so he can head home to Bougainville by a connection flight out to Buka on the same day. PNG don't disintegrate and collapse because of this "percieved idiot".
Who the heck does this person think he is?
He had brought the noble office into disrepute by making it a house of whoredom to satisfy his lusts. He was obviously not using his damn coconut. His thinking cap was superseded by his own selfish appetite.
He is not indispensable. We have many other intelligent PNGeans like him (even better than him) who have a balanced lifestyle that is in consistent with the roles they play within the diplomatic society.
The offender has clearly violated and abused the higher office he occupies.
If he is allowed to continue, he will do even worse and unimaginable things that defame PNG even more.
The best thing is: SACK HIM AND BRING HIM BACK TO PNG.
Those who are supposedly supporting an abhorrent behavior and act such as this are clearly out of their mind and are not definitely thinking with their top. They're thinking and spewing from their bottom and it reeks of stench even more.
I think there's more to this story than the sexcapade. There seems to have been some very disturbing interactions between another high commission staff member and a Malaysian who the Australians say has links to terrorism.
And then there's the new problem with corrupt handing out of medals at the last minute to those who don't deserve!!!!!!
Reactions continue to fit Mahatma Ghandi predictions
November 28 2005, 3:03 AM
As you can see from the posting below, the powers that be associated with the High Commission in Canberra are still fighting, Gandhi's step 3 of seeing justice prevail. The supporters of the high commissioner could, instead, have gotten the whistleblowers back on track again, focusing on (1) the current status of the sexcapade culprit from Bougavinville, (2) more information to understand what was going on with the defense attache and the Malaysian suspected terrorist associate, and (3) more information about corrupt awarding of medals by the high commissioner to those who did not have the stated qualifications.
Instead, the high commissioner's mob is asking that the whistleblowers be silenced. Make no mistake about it, they are following Ghandi's predictions true to form.
Plis Delete msg Title" MOre on PNG High Commission..
November 26 2005 at 7:29 AM
No score for this post PNG Represent...
Moderators, could you please delete the Message titile " More on PNG High Commission" On (PNG OZ BOARD) I understand the good citizens of PNG are trying to bring their thoughts across but most of them are going off the track....
Those office bearers are highly respected people and the way I see people expressing their views is a bit offencive and disrespect. I know they have their reasons though.
It is a shame that the PNG High Commission has been avoiding from answering simple questions raised on this board. Seeming that they would not be answering these questions at all, let us hope that they would not mind the public answering them and drawing their own conclusions about them accordingly. In any case, the PNG High Commission’s reluctance to do so is already giving the impression that the questions raised are either valid or that the alleged persons are guilty of their actions. This observation tends to be increasingly becoming obvious as new information is surfacing hence indicating that there is some basis of allegations levelled against the PNG High Commission.
For that matter, there is a degree of substance in the belief that the reason why public calls for removal or recall of the FAS from the PNG High Commission in Canberra has been falling on deaf ears is basically because the boss himself is also in the same boat as his FAS. They both have been caught up in the medal fracas that they have created for themselves. In the case of the latter’s medal affair, it took place during the recent visit of the Prime Minister Sir Michael Somare to Canberra where there were some medals awarded to a number of people from the community. Interestingly, amongst those people who were awarded the medals on the occasion there was but one lady in particular who was a surprise inclusion in the list for the medals, which according to some sources the person concerned was a former school colleague or rather some sort of a friend of the boss. Moreover, what makes this awarding of the medal a blunderous affair is the fact that this particular lady was never properly nominated nor would she have met the criteria of community service in order to deserve a medal as such. This explains why the FAS would not be removed or recalled, as he himself knows that the axe would cut both ways if the boss attempts to take action against him.
Nevertheless, whether they like it or not it is already a public knowledge now that the two have sinned against the state of Papua New Guinea and its people by their miss-appropriation of the state’s symbolic properties to solicit personal favours for their own selfish interest purposes.
In the prevailing circumstances, it is quite noticeable that there appears to be a mutual understanding between the two of them to brave out the ongoing adversity against them in the hope that this controversy would die a natural death. The both fellows should be reminded that the public is not blind to their manoeuvring and it is pointless for them to try to pretend that nothing has happened when in fact the damage has been already done. This is in particular where the trust of the Papua New Guineans and Australians have been betrayed by the two fellows and brought down to the lowest level. In this regard, the only reasonable thing for both of them to do is for them to resign gracefully and allow other responsible Papua New Guineans out there who would do a better job of salvaging the tattered image of Papua New Guinea and at the same time restoring its much needed credibility internationally.
Otherwise, a public petition should be sponsored to demand the government to sack the two fellows for their disservice to the country. By the way the Defence Attaché is equally responsible for the under- par -performance of the PNG High Commission so he should also be axed for his part as well.
Furthermore, the questions of funding, bankruptcy, sovereignty and security of PNG should also be explained in the same manner in order that the public may make an informed judgement of the issues surrounding the PNG High Commission in Canberra.
Bless you for this info on high commission shananigans
November 26 2005, 10:32 PM
Wow thanks this really explains things. Everyone seeking the truth about this high commission affair should salute you for making the effort to give these details. It shows that we're on the right track and things are coming out about the coverup that even the newspapers aren't on to yet.
This is a big lesson for all of us. When people don't give up and keep questioning what doesn't seem to be right in government offices, there will be attacks and resistance in return but finally the story will start breaking open. It shows why it is so important to be persistent and never give up. When the supporters of the person your questioning won't answer in specifics but keeps attacking without substance thats your best evidence that something strange is going on. Some pretty strange reponses from the high commissioners supporters have been posted here. Those posting should be held up as an example of how people respond when trying to cover up or try to stop people from questioning for the truth.
Please help. Print these postings out and spread widely. Do not let the issue die until the full hidden story comes out of what has been going on at the high commission in Canberra.
Re: Bless you for this info on high commission shananigans
November 26 2005, 11:03 PM
INFORMATION WANTED!
1. What is the name of the defense attache in Canberra, and what is he specifically being accused of?
2. What is the name of the woman who got a medal because of wantok system rather than qualifications?
3. Are these the only 2 individuals, apart from Charles Lepani himself, who is alleged to be involved in unethical and/or corrupt activities at the Canberra chancellery?
You'd think the newspapers would be asking this question wouldn't you? But that shows the sad state of investigative reporting in PNG. Unless concerned members of the public keep pressing, I can almost guarantee you that this will become another forgotten or incomplete investigation.
To those issuing fake threats to appease the over whelming reactions of the public, be advised that you are not helping the situation at all. Some of us have already sought appropriate views from agents connected to the PNG Ombudsmen Commission and as a result we have been advised that the PNG High Commissioner and his FAS had clearly abused their respective offices in personalising the awarding of the medals in Canberra.
We hear PNG Ombudsmen will commence investigations as soon as work priorities are finalised and we will avail ourselves to provide witness to all those allegations raised on this board.
This message has been edited by 7milebeach on Dec 7, 2005 9:09 AM
Or is that too big an ask?