September 2 2006 at 7:54 AM No score for this post
Hi!
I come from Poland... I dicovered Slovio at polish wikipedia... Then
I've found your site... I think, that's slovio is grat idea, but there
is one thing, that's make it more difficult to understand for people
>from west group of slavik (Polish, Chech and Slovakian...) There is to
much vocabulary from russian... I understand, that Russian is the
biggest language is Slavik group, but many people don't learn russian,
and understand less, than people from east group...
I think it's easier to understend between west and south group, that
west and east...
I think, thats Slovio has really good, and clear grammar, but
vocabulary it to much russian I think... Personally, I don't lern
russian... For example my mother speaks russian, and she understand
almost all... I speak only polish (i speak also german, and frech, but
it's no matter in this case), and I understand something like 60
percents... It's not like You wish, while creating language...
I think, that Slavio should has more vocabulary from west group (40
milions people speak polisk, 10 czech, and 5 slovakian) and more from
south group (slovenian is something between croatian, slovakian and
polish)
That's my proposition to make Slovio real Lingua Franca...
50,5% Slavs are Russian
13,6% Slavs are Ukrainian
3,1% Slavs are Belarussian
0,2% Slavs are Russyn
16,0% Slavs are Polish
4,2% Slavs are Czech
1,7% Slavs are Slovak
3,8% Slavs are Serbian
2,1% Slavs are Croatian
0,9% Slavs are Bosnian
0,7% Slavs are Slovenian
2,4% Slavs are Bulgarian
0,7% Slavs are Macedonian
Therefore:
67,4% east Slavs
21,9% west Slavs
10,6% south Slavs
So it is quite important to have a word that is at least somehow understandable to Russians and east Slavs ... But I agree that Slovio does even this too much. According to the example of iopq, Russian has got two words for "fog": tuman and mgla. Other Slavic languages have mostly mgla or something similar. So which word did Slovio adopt? Of course, tuman!
When creating my GS-Slovianski ( http://editthis.info/gazeta_slovian ), I also appreciate the number of Russian speakers, but I at least try to choose that Russian word that is most understandable to other Slavs, too.
At first... "Tuman" in polish means "stupid men"... Mgla mean "Mgła"
People before me have written, that is good to choose some russian vocabulary, that is more understable to other groups... But the same thing should be done with vacaubulary from other groups...
Most people speak russian... The second biggest language is polish... Polish is more or less understable to czech people, and really good understable to people from Slovakia and Slovenia.... We have also many simmilar vocabulary to South Group...
It's also important to notice, that many people from Ukraine, Belaruss and Lithuania teach themselves polish as a second language... So they have smaller problem with west vocabulary, than people from west group with russian vocabulary...
Polish was also LIngua Franca
I don't want to be nationalist or something... I just think, that is not so easy to understand Slovio to people from Poland, even that polish is the second biggest slavik language, and 46 milion people speak polish all over the world... To be honest, when I was reading Slovio first time, I had to look at english...
Gabriel pisal:
The expression gustju mgla is to Slavs thousand times better understandable than tuman.
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Maybe Gabriel does not understand tuman, but at least 250.000.000 Slavs know: tuman(pl) = cloud.
There is no much difference between a cloud and a fog except its location.
Tuman(pl) is not the same like chumra or oblok, but this word exist. See tuman kurzu (dust cloud), tuman sniegu (snowdrift).
A little bit of fantasy is required for building an inter-Slavic tongue.
In Slovio, it's probably required to adopt still new and new and new words (however much non-understandable they may be) instead of using already adopted ones.
Taking Gabriel´s figure (16 % of Slavic speakers speak Polish, and 50,5 % Russian) and Jakub´s figure 46 mill. Slavs speak Polish as true, we have only 287,5 mill. Slavic speakers and
Only 145 mill. Russian speakers.Only
Fact is, we have 150 mill. Russians in the Federation. In Germany alone 5 mill speak Russian as their mother tongue. in the former Soviet Republics we have another 70 mill. Russian speakers, assuming that 15 mill. Russian live abroad, we have 235 mill Russian speaker. So my estimation is that we have about 375.000.000 Slavic Speakers using a Slavic tongue as their first language.
Furthermore we will agree that most non-Slavs will learn rather Russian than any other Slavic language. After all Russian is spoken at least in 15 former Socialist countries.
In three EU-countries over one third of the population speaks Russian as their mother tongue.
You count Soviet Republics as speakers of Russian? My Armenian roommate did not speak Russian despite taking the subject in school and living in Armenia for 12 years. He couldn't even pronounce his own name correctly! His name was Artem and he said art-em. But in Russian it's pronounced Art'om. He knew about as much Russian as an American would after reading one text book. And he even had several Russian songs on his computer... but he just doesn't count as a speaker by any definition.
A lot of people speak surzxik in Ukraine which is Ukranian with Russian vocabulary
it is also mandatory to study Russian literature in school in addition to Ukrainian literature
We also have Russian pop songs on the radio
so I think anyone from Eastern Ukraine will understand Russian vocabulary, at least 90% from North and South and maybe half of Western Ukrainians
Western Ukrainians also use a lot of Polish/Slovak loan words like kopnuty
which brings me to the point:
mgla would be understood by Ukranians as Russian so we can just use it in every case instead of tuman (Ukrainian doesn't have mgla, but it's understood)
What about south group? Is there anyone here from south group, who DOESN"T speak russian? If yes, how mouch of Slovio they understand?
If people from west group understand something like 60 %, and the same sytuation would be with south group, that will mean, that people from east group (they understand much more) are in better position... Everyone from slavik counry should understand less or more the same % of text...
Of course i'm also talking about latin alphabet... Russian alphabet is the ONLY thing, that's stop me from learning russian...
Another question? If somebody speaks only belarusan/ukrainian/litvian, and doesn't speak russian, how much of Slovio he understand? And howm much of ruusian? I don't know any of this language, that's why I'm asking
About understanding each other... Is anyone here wrom Czech? If yes, how much of polish he understand? It's quite stange, because polish people understand more Slovakian (that's quite normal) and Slovenian (that's not normal, cuz Slovenian is south group) than Czech...
And the last question... Who understand russian more? People from Poland, Czech, Slovakia or Slovenia?
About understanding each other... Is anyone here wrom Czech? If yes, how much of polish he understand? It's quite stange, because polish people understand more Slovakian (that's quite normal) and Slovenian (that's not normal, cuz Slovenian is south group) than Czech...
I am from Czechia ... Czechs and Slovaks understand each other with absolutely no problems (that's normal) and I think that we understand Polish approximately the same as Slovenian.
"I am from Czechia ... Czechs and Slovaks understand each other with absolutely no problems (that's normal) and I think that we understand Polish approximately the same as Slovenian."
That's very strange... Beacause I understand Slovaks MUCH MORE, than Czechs... How mu h of Slovio dou You understand?
Jakub Kapica pisal:
What about south group? Is there anyone here from south group, who DOESN"T speak russian? If yes, how mouch of Slovio they understand?
If people from west group understand something like 60 %, and the same sytuation would be with south group, that will mean, that people from east group (they understand much more) are in better position... Everyone from slavik counry should understand less or more the same % of text...
Another question? If somebody speaks only belarusan/ukrainian/litvian, and doesn't speak russian, how much of Slovio he understand? And howm much of ruusian? I don't know any of this language, that's why I'm asking. (...)
And the last question... Who understand russian more? People from Poland, Czech, Slovakia or Slovenia?
===
I have a list of 200 every day words (watch the chronological order) in English, Polish, Russian, Czechian, Slovio, Bulgarian and Belorussian. This may answer some of your questions. I will send it to you by e-Mail if you like.
Cloud; chumra; tucxa i oblako; mrak, oblak; oblak; chmara i voblaka
Fog; mgla; tuman i mgla; mlha; tuman; mgla; imhla i tuman
Jakub Kapica pisal:
Of course i'm also talking about latin alphabet... Russian alphabet is the ONLY thing, that's stop me from learning russian...
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Sxkoda! Russian alphabet is much more easier to learn than learning the pronunciation of e.g. Latin letters of Hungarian language.
The problem are not the Cyrillic letters. The problem is that Russian orthography is not phonetic. Well Polish is also not 100% phonetic. So Slovio´s letter whether Latin or Cyrillic are sto % phonetic.
the letter v in slovio is the same as polish w
the letter x in slovio is the same as the dot above the z or the caron in czech
there is no letter q in slovio
BUT there are some problems:
no way to tell between Marja and Marija in writing (spelled Maria in both cases)
no way to predict how many syllables a word has (does piat have one or two?)
relies on the speaker to insert schwas
take words like scxastie
what can you pronounce it as?
счастие
счастийе
счасте
щасте
щастийе
щастие
note that Slavic languages have 3 different pronunciations for the щ letter so that's a total of 12 different pronunciations, 3 of them being incorrect (сч is not how it's pronounced in any Slavic language) but most closely relevant to the spelling
Igor pisal.
take words like scxastie
what can you pronounce it as?
ÓŢÁÓÔÉĹ
ÓŢÁÓÔÉĘĹ
ÓŢÁÓÔĹ
ÝÁÓÔĹ
ÝÁÓÔÉĘĹ
ÝÁÓÔÉĹ
note that Slavic languages have 3 different pronunciations for the Ý letter so that's a total of 12 different pronunciations, 3 of them being incorrect (ÓŢ is not how it's pronounced in any Slavic language) but most closely relevant to the spelling
===
That Slavic languages have 3 different pronunciations for the Ý letter is not a problem of Slovio. Scxastie is pronounced s-cxastie.
And how you pronounce -ie
Is in the end your “beer”.
I will understand any variation you mentioned.
Czechs and Slovaks lived for 70 years in one state, that's why ...
I can't say how much Slovio I understand. I have already been contact with Slovio for a long time, I studied its dictionary, so now I understand even those words and expressions that would normally not be understandable to me.
Gabriel pisal:
...so now I understand even those words and expressions that would normally not be understandable to me.
===
Gabriel, ne imat slovnik, ktor slovi i.t.d. es razumimju dla vse!
Eugeniusx, could You send this list to me? kubakapica@o2.pl
Polish is not 100% phonetic, but it' smuch more phonetic than english or french or german (I know all of thoose languages... Espesially french, the pronaunciation was very hard for the begining)
The orther thing in Slovio i letter "x"... I don't know if you know but polish alphabet doent's has three letters "v" (we use "w"), q, x (we use "ks")
Jakub pisal:
Polish is not 100% phonetic, but it's much more phonetic than English or French or German (I know all of those languages... Especially French, the pronunciation was very hard for the beginning)
===
French and German are to a certain extend phonetic. But English is everything but phonetic, it is more similar to Chinese.
Do Jakub:
Did you receive the list?
Now you will have to learn the Cyrillic letters in order to read the Bulgarian and Russian words, but with help of the list you will master them very soon.
Why in slovio "cx" is not "cz" ?
And "sx" is not "sz"
And "wx" in not "szcz"
And finaly why "zx" is not "?" or another letter with accent?
Because Slovio creators don't care about aesthetics and they don't know that computers and websites that don't know Unicode yet exist, but they belong to past.
Yes Unicode exists but not in reality only in Gabriel's phantasy. That's why I cannot read any of the special characters, neither on my, nor on my office nor in a internet cafe computer.
So let's be realistic. Because unicode doesn't exist that's why there is such a mess in inter-slavic communication. And: Russians don't use in latin transliteration cz, sz and other incomprehensible variants but only ch, sh, zh kh etc. But I guess according to Gabriel we should write off the Russians and use his incomprehensible and illogical variants....
If everyone in the world will start learning english, after 2 years no Slovio, no Interlingua, no Esperanto will be needed... The bad thing in planned (or artifical as you want) languages is that everyone can say, what's wrong, and what's better could be done...
When you learn natural, normal language, like polish, english, french, german, russsiam, or any other, you just have to accept this rules, and continue your education, or stop learnig...
You can always say, that' something is sux, like I was saying for french "le, la, un, une, des, les"... For me that's was stupid, beacuse nothing like this exist in polish...
The same sytuation with german cases and "der, die, das"
But, thoose thing were created by users of thoose languages... The evolued in natural way... That's why I thing they are better (with all of disadvantages, unlogigals things, stupid grammar, and hard pronuaciation), than any planned languages.
To wszystko co mam do powiedzenia.
(In polish that's mean: "That's all I want to say")
Yeah, sure, but a lot of people don't know English. I believe that there is a way to create a Slavic language that's 99% understandable to most Slavic speakers (Macedonian and Bulgarian speakers will have more difficulties) without prior study. Slovio does not achieve this goal.
=====================
That Slavic languages have 3 different pronunciations for the Ý letter is not a problem of Slovio. Scxastie is pronounced s-cxastie.
And how you pronounce -ie
Is in the end your “beer”.
I will understand any variation you mentioned.
=====================
First of all, s-cxastie is not from ANY Slavic language but Slovio. It makes no sense. It is spelled that way in Russian, yes, but it's pronounced swxastje
-ie is pronounced with an English r at the end? That's news to me. Note that I speak a rhotic accent of English.
Jakub pisal:
Why in slovio "cx" is not "cz" ?
And "sx" is not "sz"
And "wx" in not "szcz"
And finaly why "zx" is not "ż" or another letter with accent?
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Oh, moi bozxe, neh to ne skoncit!
... bo cx, sx itd. es logikju i ne smesxatsju, takak:
cz, sz... ż (!)
cj, sj... zj
itd.
no "nailepsxe" es:
cz, sz... ż
Jakub pisal.
...The bad thing in planned (or artificial as you want) languages is that everyone can say, what's wrong, and what's better could be done...
===
This is true for all languages. By the way German is also a planned language, his author was Herr Martin Luther.
Planning an all-Slavic Language, like Luther did for German dialects is a good thing. English is a language of an Empire, and it will once wither away like all the other ones, e.g. Latin, French.
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Jakub:
When you learn natural, normal language, like polish, English, French, German, Russian, or any other, you just have to accept this rules, and continue your education, or stop learning...
===
In Germany they are still quarrelling about the orthographic reform, made recently.
Nobody is forcing you NOT to accept the rules of Slovio. And the rules of Slovio are as much "fixed" as those of "natural" languages. And as in any language changes will be made here and then.
___
Jakub:
But, those thing were created by users of those languages... The evolved in natural way... That's why I thing they are better (with all of disadvantages, non-logical things, stupid grammar, and hard pronunciation), than any planned languages.
===
The pronunciation of German dialects is not hard, but Hochdeutsch, a planned language, is somehow not so easy to pronounce. well, nobody is perfect, this is also true for Herr Luther.
To wszystko co mam do ODpowiedzenia.
___
Jakub:
Does any user of Slovio can understand it?
===
Ja te razumijm.
"Yeah, sure, but a lot of people don't know English. I believe that there is a way to create a Slavic language that's 99% understandable to most Slavic speakers (Macedonian and Bulgarian speakers will have more difficulties) without prior study. Slovio does not achieve this goal."
That would be perfect... I'm courios about it... But I'm thinking if I'll live to this time
What about this: Create a long text (about 10 000 worlds), and ask people from different Slavik countries to write it, then make some kind of compilation of this, and have all SLAVIK language?
The best proove, that Slovio is not as good and useful, as author wanted, is that, we are writing in English.
Now the sentence above in polish:
Najlepszym dowodem, że Slovio nie jest taj dobry i użyteczny, jak autor chciał, jest to, że piszemy po angielsku.
And can someone write it in Slovio?
And what would be easier to undersand and for who. Polish, english or Slovio?
Ne mi, ale ti pisajsx po Angliju.
Kak ti mozxijsx kritikovat jazik ti ne znajsx? Ti mislijsx, zxe razumijsx 60 % Slovio, no tak. Ili procent ti razumijsx Angloju i Germanju?
Prosijm perevodij po Polakju, Angloju i Germanju:
Zver logik
Sledju cxtir vopros opredelit kak dobruo ti pristanit vo torgju Vset. Otvetij kazxd vopros prede ti hodit do naiblizju.
1.Kak ti polozxijsx zxiraf vom samoholod?
2.Kak ti polozxijsx slon vom samoholod?
3.Kral leov imatsju zver konferencia. Vse zver ucxastit izklucxuo tolk din. Ktor zver ne ucxastit?
4.Ti dolzx perehodijsx gxungl reka, no mnogju aligator tam domovijut. Ti ne imasx lodka. Kak to delasx?
Torgju Vset = business World
Vom = vof
ili pervodij to po Slovio, Germanju i Polakju:
WE KNOW OUR STRENGTH by Worker-Writer David Lambert (1922 - 1967)
One Friday afternoon John Laurie, the foundry manager, was studying a long list of names in his office. Ten men had to be sacked, and he was going to pick them out. When he had finished he left the office, pleased with his work. In the workshop he met Bill Omond, the shop steward, and told him about the sackings.
" How many? " Bill Omond asked. "Ten." "You should have told us." "I'm telling you now." "Two hours before we go. You should have given us time to discuss it." "There's really nothing to discuss," the manager said. "You Communists aren't running the factory yet, you know."
When the manager had gone Bill had a look at the names of the men who were being sacked. Two of them were old workers. One was Old Rab Mair, who was sixty-eight. Fifty years with the firm. He'd be finished now. The others were young people, among them some active union members. It was no wonder that Laurie had chosen them - the 'trouble-makers' as he called them. "The old routine," Bill thought. "It's cheaper for the bosses to have a lot of young apprentices who get only a few shillings. When they have been long enough in the firm and have to be paid full wages they are sacked."
Igor pisal:
... I believe that there is a way to create a Slavic language that's 99% understandable to most Slavic speakers...
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correct! Having a vocabulary, of say not more than 375 words, and a grammar of a two years old one.
___
Igor:
(Macedonian and Bulgarian speakers will have more difficulties) without prior study.
===
This is the most wrong one of an argument, just the Makedonians and Bulgarians can show us how to “simplify” Slavic languages.
___
Igor:
Slovio does not achieve this goal.
===
This goal is not achievable! Your Slovio translation is more understandable than your 99% dream!
Also look at the grammar and the wordings of GS-Slovianski.
Ne mi, ale ti pisajsx po Angliju.
Kak ti mozxijsx kritikovat jazik ti ne znajsx? Ti mislijsx, zxe razumijsx 60 % Slovio, no tak. Ili procent ti razumijsx Angloju i Germanju?
Prosijm perevodij po Polakju, Angloju i Germanju"
Sorry, but I have understand only that... I'm not able to understand the rest . Another proove, that Slovio is not as good as planned.
And what does "perevodij" means?
About "ruzumujsx" "Angloju i Germanju", I have to say, that I understand between 85 and 100% of english and between 45 and 80 % of german... I'm also learning french, but it doesn't matter...
English is MUCH MORE understable for me than Slovio...
And Eugeniusx or Eugeniusz, could You translate the rest of your text to english... I really cannot understand it, sorry
Jakub, you wrote to us that you, reading a Slovio text for the first time, understood about 60 % of it. Congratulation, to you and to Slovio!
Now, - I am going to test your honesty- tell us how much you understood of an English or German text “reading” it the first time?
___
Jakub pisal:
About "ruzumujsx" "Angloju i Germanju"...
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mislilijm, zxe ti nisxto ne razumijsx.
Eugeniusx
Jakub pisal.
And Eugeniusx or Eugeniusz, could You translate the rest of your text to english... I really cannot understand it, sorry
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The following four questions determine how well you, Jakub, fit in the business world. Answer each one before you move on to the next.
1. How do you put a giraffe into a fridge?
2. How do you put an elephant into a fridge?
3. The Lion King is holding an animal conference. All the animals attend except one. Which animal does not attend?
4. You must cross the jungle river, but lots of alligators live there. You have no boat. How do you do it?
. Another proove, that Slovio is not as good as planned.