September 30 2006 at 1:09 PM No score for this post
I.
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Vele Morava
Vele Morava il slovane imperium so egzistenie vo Centrale Europa mezo 833 a skore 10 – te storoki. Toi teritorium lez’il na obe strani ov Morava reka, vo prezent – den Slovakia, C’eh’ie republika a Austria.
Imperium il stanovite ked princ Mojmir I-te unitil so sila susede kniez’e teritorium ov Nitra so tenoi Morave kniez’e teritorium vo 833. Naslede kulture rozvitenie il sledenie misiov Sante Cyrilov a Metodov, kor pridil vo c’asenie vladeniov ov princ Rastislav vo 863. Vele Morave imperium mal naivele teritoriume s’irenie vo c’asenie ov kral Svatopluk I-te [871-894]. Slabenite s interne boj a frekvente vojni so Franke Imperium, Vele Morava il na konec destrukte s Madiare invazitori vo skore 10-te storoki a toi ostani il pak dividete mezo Kralenie Hungariov, C’eh’ia, Polakia a Sante Rome Imperium.
Vel-Moravia bil Slavju imper ktor egzistil vo Sredju Europ mezx 833 i ranju 10ju storocxie. Toi jadroju oblast lezxil na obdva bregis om reka Morava, vo tut-denju Slovakia, Cxehia i Austria.
Imper bil osnovilju gda Princ Moimir I nasiluo sodinil sosedju Princ-krain Nitra so jegoi Moravju Princ-krain vo 833. Bezprimerju kulturju razvitie usledil posolie Sviatnikifs Ciril i Metod, ktor pridili podcxas korolenie om Princ Rastislav vo 863. Vel-Moravju Imper dosagil svoi naivelju teritorju prostrenie pod Korol Sviatpluk I (871-894). Slabilju usled vnutrju borba i cxastoju voinas proti Frankju Imper, Vel-Moravia bil koncuo proehalju ot Madarju vtorgatelis vo ranju 10ju storocxie i toi socxastis bil pozdue razdelilju mezxu Madarju Korolstvo, Bohemia, Polakia i Sviatju Rimju Imper.
Sloveno
Vele Morava
Vele Morava il slovane imperium so egzistenie vo Centrale Europa mezo 833 a skore 10 – te storoki. Toi teritorium lez’il na obe strani ov Morava reka, vo prezent – den Slovakia, C’eh’ie republika a Austria.
Imperium il stanovite ked princ Mojmir I-te unitil so sila susede kniez’e teritorium ov Nitra so tenoi Morave kniez’e teritorium vo 833. Naslede kulture rozvitenie il sledenie misiov Sante Cyrilov a Metodov, kor pridil vo c’asenie vladeniov ov princ Rastislav vo 863. Vele Morave imperium mal naivele teritoriume s’irenie vo c’asenie ov kral Svatopluk I-te [871-894]. Slabenite s interne boj a frekvente vojni so Franke Imperium, Vele Morava il na konec destrukte s Madiare invazitori vo skore 10-te storoki a toi ostani il pak dividete mezo Kralenie Hungariov, C’eh’ia, Polakia a Sante Rome Imperium.
Slovianski-N (Hellerick)
Velika Morava
Velika Morava bila Slov'anska imperija rozmestena v Central'noj Europe mežu 833 i načala des'atogo storočija. Serce jej teritoriji bilo na obojih br'egah r'eki Moravi, v tutdennoj Slovakiji, Čehskoj Republike i Austriji.
Imperija bila načata kogda Princ Mojmir I zavojoval sosedsko Kn'ažestvo Nitra i sojedinil s Moravskim Kn'ažestvom v 833-om roče. Bezprecedentne kultural'ne rozvojan'e bilo nasledkom misiji Sv'atih Kirila i Metodija, kto prijdili pri Prince Rastislave v 863-om roče. Velika Moravska Imperija dos'agnula naj višogo rozmera pri Krole Svatopluke I-om (871-894). Oslabena vnutr'enimi borbami, i častimi vojnami s Frankijskoj Imperijoj, Velika Morava bila rozbita Magjarskimi napadnikami v načale 10-ogo storočija i jej ostatki bili rozdeleni mežu Krolestvom Vengrijskim, Bohemijoj, Pol'skoj, i Sv'atoj Rimskoj Imperijoj.
Slovianski-N (iopq)
Velika Morava
Velika Morava bila Slov'anska imperija rozmestena v Central'noj Europe mežu 833 i načala des'atogo storočija. Serce jej teritoriji bilo na obojih br'egah r'eki Moravi, v tutdeni Slovakiji, Čehskoj Republike i Austriji.
Imperija bila načata kogda Princ Mojmir I [čitaj pervi] zavojovat sosedske Kn'ažestvo Nitra i sojedinil s Moravskim Kn'ažestvom v 833-om roče. Bezprecedentne kultural'ne rozvojan'e bilo nasledkom misiji Sv'atih Kirila i Metodija, kto prijdili pri Prince Rastislave v 863-om roče. Velika Moravska Imperija dos'agnula naj višogo rozmera pri Krole Svatopluke I-om (871-894). Oslabena vnutr'enimi borbami, i častimi vojnami s Frankijskoj Imperijoj, Velika Morava bila rozbita Magjarskimi napadnikami v načalo 10-ogo storočija i jej ostatki bili rozdeleni mežu Krolestvom Vengrijskim, Bohemijoj, Polskoj, i Sv'atoj Rimskoj Imperijoj.
MZhR
Velikij Moravija
Velikij Moravija byl Slavianskij imperija sushchestvujushchij v centralnyj Evropa mezhdu 833 i v rannij desijatyj stoletija. Sentr territorija svoj lezhat na oba strona reka moravom, v sovremennij Slovakija Cheshskij Respublika i Avstrija.
Imperija byl osnovyvalij kogda Princ Mojmir I jedinyj sosednij Knjazhestvo Nitram so ego sobstvennyj Moravskij Knjazhestvo v 833. Bezprecedentnyj kulturnyj pazvitije sledoval ot missija
Kirilom i Metodium, kto prikhodil v techenije carstvovanije Princ Rastislavom v 863.
Velikij Moravija raztjanutyj najvelikij territorija pod Korol Svatopluk I (871 – 894).
Oslabilij posredstvom vnutrennij borba i chastyj vojna s Frankiskij imperija, Velikij Moravija byl nakonec covershat ot Vengerskij zakhvatchiki v rannij desijatyj stoletija i svoj ostatoki bili zatem razdelennyj mezhdu Korolevstvo Vengriam, Bogema, Polsha i Sviatoij Rimskij Imperija.
GS-Slovianski
Velika Moravija
Velika Moravija bili slov'ansku imperija buduczu v sredininu Evropa medzzu rok 833 i ranu rok-sto des'atu. Ogo glovnu teritorija lezzali na vse dva strone prinadlezzaczu k reka Morava, v teperu Slovakija, Czehija i Avstrija.
Imperija bili naczinanu, kogdi princ Mojmir po sila jedinili blizku Nitransku Kn'azzestvo s svoj sobstvenu Moravsku Kn'azzestvo v rok 833. Bezprimerovu kulturinu razvivan'e proistekali iz misija ot sv'atu Kiril i Metodij, ktori prihodili podczas vladan'e ot princ Rostislav v rok 863. Velika Moravija dohodili teritoriczku rozmer najvisze veliku pod krol' Svatopluk 1u (871-894). Slabu ot vnutriu borbe i czastu vojne protiv Franksku Imperija, Velika Moravija bili konczovuo rozbinu ot vengarsku vtorgnutel'i v ranu rok-sto des'atu i ogo kusoki poslednu bili visze pozdnuo delinu medzzu Vengarija, Bohemija, Polakija i Sv'aszczena Rimska Imperija.
Problems with Slovio version:
Right away I have to say that "velju" is hard to understand because I expect a "k" in the word "big" that's why it's always hard to use "velju" for me
TOO MANY WORDS WITHOUT ENDINGS
is it too hard to accept that words have endings in every Slavic language? I might guess what an Imper is, but that doesn't mean I like it
and posolie is kind of awkward because I would expect posolie to be done by a diplomat (posol)
korolenie doesn't make sense (shouldn't it be krolenie or did Slovio mess that up too)
I don't understand how the empire was "passed" (proehat) by invaders... did they just pass through and didn't do anything? Obviously not since they were invaders!
in terms of grammar I don't like the particle om
I'd prefer Princom instead of om Princ
dosagit sounds awkward because the verb in natural Slavic languages is perfective in this sentence, but dos'agaty in Ukrainian is imperfective, dos'agnuty is perfective
Problems with Sloveno version:
Same as Slovio, "vele" is kind of hard to understand, even "velke" would be ten times better
"il" is not the Slavic copula
"skore" means fast what does "a skore" mean? "but fast?"
you use "ra" for Ъr... which means I can't tell the different between a country "strana" in Russian and side (of the river) "storona" which in this text is a serious misunderstanding
you use "stanovite" for "founded" or "started", yet it is not perfective. The Slovio version here is perfective "o-snovit" even though they don't say it has a prefix in the dictionary which it obviously does
"unit" is not a word most Slavic people understand (only those that know other languages) when a better "so-jedinit" is available
I don't know what a "tenoi" is
Note that the grammar is NOT simple in Sloveno, it has palatalization (not in the soft sign sense) in "kniez’e" which is a naturalistic feature even IJzeren Jan didn't describe even in HIS grammar yet!
Don't know what a "c’asenie" is either
I understand now... "a" means "and"... he must be a West Slavic speaker... to suggest something like that
you misspelled "frequente" learn your Spanish, please
now you're speaking Italian? "invazitori"
what wonder children are you talking about? "dividete"
I suggest you rename your language "Latinska" so people don't get the wrong idea
You didn't post Hellerick's version, you just posted my revised version as his, I do remember he had more differences between our versions
The version marked "Helleric's" is my revised version go back and get his
Things about my own version:
I still don't know what to do about the word year, I adopted "rocx" from Slovio just for this text because Sl-N grammar doesn't have palatalization
And it should be Mad'jarskimi because I simply forgot to use a Slavic word for "Magyar"
Criticisms of MZhR:
Russian uses "centr" instead of "sentr"
I don't understand what "svoj" means in that context (their own??)
Morava as a river is capitalized
there are commas in between list items
should be "sojedinil" not "jedinyj"
you mispelled "razvitije"
I am confused what your cases are... sometimes you don't use them "carstvovanie" instead of "carstvovania" and sometimes you do "Rastislavom"
again, should be "raztjanula sebja" instead of "raztjanutyj" which is an adjective unless you meant "byla raztjanuta" since Russian has a copula in the past tense
should be "sovershena" instead of "covershat"
Criticisms of GS-Slov'anski
rok-sto doesn't make sense on any level when if you wanted to create a word you only needed to say "sto-rok" which matches "storičča" in Ukrainian
vse dva is kind of retarded, I KNOW you wanted to say "oboji" or something, but if you're not going to use that word, use just dva
can your systematic language even handle idit and hodit? I assumed you'd end up using doidit
Oh sorry, I really did miscopy it. So hopefully correctly now:
Slovio
Velju Moravia
Vel-Moravia bil Slavju imper ktor egzistil vo Sredju Europ mezx 833 i ranju 10ju storocxie. Toi jadroju oblast lezxil na obdva bregis om reka Morava, vo tut-denju Slovakia, Cxehia i Austria.
Imper bil osnovilju gda Princ Moimir I nasiluo sodinil sosedju Princ-krain Nitra so jegoi Moravju Princ-krain vo 833. Bezprimerju kulturju razvitie usledil posolie Sviatnikifs Ciril i Metod, ktor pridili podcxas korolenie om Princ Rastislav vo 863. Vel-Moravju Imper dosagil svoi naivelju teritorju prostrenie pod Korol Sviatpluk I (871-894). Slabilju usled vnutrju borba i cxastoju voinas proti Frankju Imper, Vel-Moravia bil koncuo proehalju ot Madarju vtorgatelis vo ranju 10ju storocxie i toi socxastis bil pozdue razdelilju mezxu Madarju Korolstvo, Bohemia, Polakia i Sviatju Rimju Imper.
Sloveno
Vele Morava
Vele Morava il slovane imperium so egzistenie vo Centrale Europa mezo 833 a skore 10 – te storoki. Toi teritorium lez’il na obe strani ov Morava reka, vo prezent – den Slovakia, C’eh’ie republika a Austria.
Imperium il stanovite ked princ Mojmir I-te unitil so sila susede kniez’e teritorium ov Nitra so tenoi Morave kniez’e teritorium vo 833. Naslede kulture rozvitenie il sledenie misiov Sante Cyrilov a Metodov, kor pridil vo c’asenie vladeniov ov princ Rastislav vo 863. Vele Morave imperium mal naivele teritoriume s’irenie vo c’asenie ov kral Svatopluk I-te [871-894]. Slabenite s interne boj a frekvente vojni so Franke Imperium, Vele Morava il na konec destrukte s Madiare invazitori vo skore 10-te storoki a toi ostani il pak dividete mezo Kralenie Hungariov, C’eh’ia, Polakia a Sante Rome Imperium.
Slovianski-N (Hellerick)
Velika Morava
Slovenska imperija bivša v Centralna Evropa mež 833 rok i načalo 10u storokiju. Jejova glavna teritorija ležala na oboje stroni reku Morava, v tutdenske Slovakija, Čehija i Austrija.
Imerija bila zakladina kda kniaz Mojmir I so-silno sojednil sosedsko kriazostvo Nitra do sam-jegovo kniazostvo v 833. Neprecedentni kulturalni rozvoj bil rezultat ot misija Sviatov Kirilu i Metodiju, koje priideli vo vremen pravijaniju kniazu Rastislavu v 863. Velika Moravska Imperija dosiagila jejova naj-velika teritorijalna širina pri krol Svatopluk I (871-894). Doslabijna so vnutrena borba i časte vojni so Frankska imperija, Velika Moravija bila do-konec pere-silijna so Madjarske napadniki v načalo 10u storokiju, i jejove ostatki bili rozdeline mež krolstvo Vengrija, Bohemija, Polska i Sviata Rimska Imperija.
Slovianski-N (iopq)
Velika Morava
Velika Morava bila Slov'anska imperija rozmestena v Central'noj Europe meĹľu 833 i naÄŤala des'atogo storoÄŤija. Serce jej teritoriji bilo na obojih br'egah r'eki Moravi, v tutdeni Slovakiji, ÄŚehskoj Republike i Austriji.
Imperija bila načata kogda Princ Mojmir I [čitaj pervi] zavojovat sosedske Kn'ažestvo Nitra i sojedinil s Moravskim Kn'ažestvom v 833-om roče. Bezprecedentne kultural'ne rozvojan'e bilo nasledkom misiji Sv'atih Kirila i Metodija, kto prijdili pri Prince Rastislave v 863-om roče. Velika Moravska Imperija dos'agnula naj višogo rozmera pri Krole Svatopluke I-om (871-894). Oslabena vnutr'enimi borbami, i častimi vojnami s Frankijskoj Imperijoj, Velika Morava bila rozbita Magjarskimi napadnikami v načalo 10-ogo storočija i jej ostatki bili rozdeleni mežu Krolestvom Vengrijskim, Bohemijoj, Polskoj, i Sv'atoj Rimskoj Imperijoj.
MZhR
Velikij Moravija
Velikij Moravija byl Slavianskij imperija sushchestvujushchij v centralnyj Evropa mezhdu 833 i v rannij desijatyj stoletija. Sentr territorija svoj lezhat na oba strona reka moravom, v sovremennij Slovakija Cheshskij Respublika i Avstrija.
Imperija byl osnovyvalij kogda Princ Mojmir I jedinyj sosednij Knjazhestvo Nitram so ego sobstvennyj Moravskij Knjazhestvo v 833. Bezprecedentnyj kulturnyj pazvitije sledoval ot missija
Kirilom i Metodium, kto prikhodil v techenije carstvovanije Princ Rastislavom v 863.
Velikij Moravija raztjanutyj najvelikij territorija pod Korol Svatopluk I (871 – 894).
Oslabilij posredstvom vnutrennij borba i chastyj vojna s Frankiskij imperija, Velikij Moravija byl nakonec covershat ot Vengerskij zakhvatchiki v rannij desijatyj stoletija i svoj ostatoki bili zatem razdelennyj mezhdu Korolevstvo Vengriam, Bogema, Polsha i Sviatoij Rimskij Imperija.
GS-Slovianski
Velika Moravija
Velika Moravija bili slov'ansku imperija buduczu v sredininu Evropa medzzu rok 833 i ranu rok-sto des'atu. Ogo glovnu teritorija lezzali na vse dva strone prinadlezzaczu k reka Morava, v teperu Slovakija, Czehija i Avstrija.
Imperija bili naczinanu, kogdi princ Mojmir po sila jedinili blizku Nitransku Kn'azzestvo s svoj sobstvenu Moravsku Kn'azzestvo v rok 833. Bezprimerovu kulturinu razvivan'e proistekali iz misija ot sv'atu Kiril i Metodij, ktori prihodili podczas vladan'e ot princ Rostislav v rok 863. Velika Moravija dohodili teritoriczku rozmer najvisze veliku pod krol' Svatopluk 1u (871-894). Slabu ot vnutriu borbe i czastu vojne protiv Franksku Imperija, Velika Moravija bili konczovuo rozbinu ot vengarsku vtorgnutel'i v ranu rok-sto des'atu i ogo kusoki poslednu bili visze pozdnuo delinu medzzu Vengarija, Bohemija, Polakija i Sv'aszczena Rimska Imperija.
TOO MANY WORDS WITHOUT ENDINGS
is it too hard to accept that words have endings in every Slavic language? I might guess what an Imper is, but that doesn't mean I like it
Exactly!
Slovio developers, please:
- Why do you claim that natural Slavic words can end both in a consonant and in a vowel, when you don't obey this rule yourself? If you like truncated words so much (zxen, imper), then I've got a tip for you: truncate them all. Then you'll get a good dictionary for a perfectly schematic, easy to learn inter-Slavic language.
- Or don't truncate endings (zxena, imperia). Then your grammar with two (mostly un-Slavic) endings for the same meaning (one for root ending in a consonant, another one for a root ending in a vowel) will be at least somehow reasoned. Moreover, the Slovio dictionary will become a really good Slavic dictionary which will we usable also by other conlangers who would like to help Slovio in our common aim: a good inter-Slavic language.
rok-sto doesn't make sense on any level when if you wanted to create a word you only needed to say "sto-rok" which matches "storičča" in Ukrainian
The last part of a compound should be the main one. Therefore sto-rok would be "centennial" (a year of a hundred) as opposed to rok-sto (a hundred of years).
But I'd have no problem with stolet'e.
vse dva is kind of retarded, I KNOW you wanted to say "oboji" or something, but if you're not going to use that word, use just dva
Yes, oba could work, too.
can your systematic language even handle idit and hodit? I assumed you'd end up using doidit
Igor:
TOO MANY WORDS WITHOUT ENDINGS
is it too hard to accept that words have endings in every Slavic language? I might guess what an Imper is, but that doesn't mean I like it
===
Soglosijm (so) Igorum. Razresxenie mozx but tak:
Histor-ia, histor-ju...
Imper-ia, imper-ju...
histor-ia (sing)> histor-i (plur)
zxen-a (sing) > zxen-i
---
Did you already forget the official Slovio arguements for the impossibility of -i and for the necessity of -(i)s?
===
Jo zlo ucxnik!
i jo gupielok i Ŕ-ÄÖÉÎ (to zxart samrazumuo)
I don't know how someone defending a systematic language wants to have the highest amount of roots possible instead of deriving everything from one root.
stolet'e is definitely the best word for Sl-N, though
I don't know how someone defending a systematic language wants to have the highest amount of roots possible instead of deriving everything from one root.
I have already had perfectly schematic rok (year) > rok-sto (century), but you didn't like it. Now you don't like naturalised rok (year) besides stolet'e (century). So please make up your mind!
I want the least amount of roots in a schematic language, so pick one root and derive everything with it.
In a naturalistic language we can use more roots.
But my objection to rok-sto is a logical one. Because Slavic languages put the number first before the object.
A logical word-compounding has got one basic idea: the main word is the last part of the compound. Therefore:
a song-bird = a birdof singing ( = a bird that sings)
a bird-song = a songof a bird ( = a song sung by a bird)
a sail-ship = a shipof sails ( = a ship that has got sails)
a ship-sail = a sailof a ship ( = a sail used on ships)
sto-rok = a yearof a hundred ( = a centennial)
rok-sto = a hundredof years ( = a century)
It isn't logical word-compounding, it's Germanic word-compounding, it creates okay Germanic words like jahrhundert, but Romance and Slavic languages prefer to use in compounds the same word order as in combinations of words: stoletije, centennial.
Personally I prefer Germanic system. It's one of the reasons why Germanic languages are more suitable for the role of international languages.
don't use English words to prove something about Slavic words
I'll use Russian:
stoletj'e - a hundred of years
there, I just settled the dispute about THIS WORD, want more proof? Look at storičča in Ukrainian.
The more general statement that compounds should be formed like:
possessor+possessed
shall be discussed below
In Russian: stol-kniga - a table of book - a folding table (book-like table)
if we made a compound tablebook in English it would mean a book that goes on the table
Examples of the opposite happening are usually borrowings or constructed to match the other similar borrowed words
I can make up Russian compounds like
časi-kal'kul'ator and that would clearly mean "a watch that has a calculator feature in it"
but a watch-calculator would be "a calculator that also tells the time"
Interesting ... So we have discovered another area of disagreement between individual Slavic langauges: I would definitely understand stol-kniga as some king of kniga, and I'd definitely understand czasi-kalkulator as some kind of kalkulator.
1) If the natural Slavic compound is non-Germanic-like, let's adopt the Slavic compound in its natural form as if it was one word: therefore stolet'e, not "rok-sto".
2) If the natural Slavic compound is Germanic-like, let's contruct it within the inter-Slavic language without adopting any new root.
Iopq to Gabriel: I suggest you rename your language "Latinska" so people don't get the wrong idea
I thought about that... Just for fun, what Latina Slavonica would be like...?
Velica Moravia buit imperium Slavonum, quae buit in Eupora Centrali inter 833 et nacialo centuriae 10. Territotium etum legiavit super bregis obojis Moravae recae, in Slovacia, Cechia et Austria deniorum presentum.
Imperium buit statum quoda Moimir Primus princius univit cum sila princitum sossedum Nitrae ad suojum in 833. Culturae evololutio impraecedita buit resultatus missionis Cyrilli et Methodii sanctorum, qui priidiverunt in Rastislavi princii gubernationis tempore in 863. Velica Moravia dossiagavit suae territoriae magnitudinem maximalem sub crolo Suatopulco (871-894). Asslabitum boritionibus interioribus et voenis frequentibus cum Francorum Imperio, Velica Moravia buit in fine supervictum napadatoribus Hungariensibus in centuriae 10 nacialo et reliqui ejus buerunt divisae inter Crolno Hungariense, Bohemia, Polonia, i Imperio Romano Sancto.
