February 25 2007 at 2:59 PM No score for this post
Hi.
After iopq and Gabriel gave us examples of their Slavic Pidjins I decided to publish a version of my own. Maybe it doesn't look too original... well, I didn't try to be original.
Alphabet
vowels: a, e, i, o, u
half-vowel: y
consonants: b, ch, d, f, g, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, r, s, sh, t, v, z
Pronunciation:
The phonetic meaning of most consonant letters/digraphs is the same as in English. h -- like in Croatian; j -- like in French.
Phonetic Particularities
To make pronunciation easier, ending -o may be added to any word ending in a consonant: noj = nojo ("knife"). Also, any -o noun can lose this ending and became a zero-ending noun: yezero = yezer ("lake").
Some Slavic words that naturally have zero-ending always take the ending -o: pso ("dog"), sno ("dream"). (It mostly concerns the words with a dropping vowel).
The facultative recommendation is the next: a word should not end in a plosive (b, p, d, t, g, k), a consonant cluster or in j and ch -- when it occurred it's better to add -o after. A word may and in a vowel, a single liquid or nasal (l, m, n, r), a half-vowel (y), or an unvoiced fricative ch, f, h, sh -- when it occurred you may remove -o after it.
Nouns
End in a consonant, -o, -a, or -e.
There is no plural. When you really need to mark plural you can you use one of the next ways:
1. Use a numeral: tri muj -- "three men".
2. Use words like nekolka ("several") or mnoga ("many/much"): nekolka kniga ("several books"), mnoga okno ("many windows")
3. Use a 'collective' word, which is derived from a noun by means of suffix -(v)stvo*: zubstvo, or zubovstvo ("teeth"), Slavenstvo ("Slavs").
* -vstvo is used after vowels, and -stvo after consonants. Therefore, suffix -vstvo allows to preserve original final vowel of the word.
There are no cases. When a noun is followed by other noun, the latter is considered to be specifying the former, i.e. the second noun acts like being in genitive of natural Slavic languages:
Pronouns
personal
possessive
moy
moya
tvoy
tvoya
goy
goya
yoy
yoya
toy
toya
nash
nasha
vash
vasha
ih
iha
Adjectives
Adjectives end in -a (i.e. look like 'feminine' nouns)
Adjectives precede the noun they modify.
Adjectives are derived from nouns by means of suffix -(v)ska*.
* -vska is used after vowels, and -ska after consonants.
Auxiliary words vishe, nayvishe, mene, naymene are used to form degrees of comparison.
Adverbs
Adverbs are the same as adjectives.
Verbs
Verbs can end either in any vowel or in -y. But usually they end in -i or -ay.
Passive is made by means of suffix -s. The next 'prepositionless' noun is considered its agent: moy pishi kniga ("I write a book") -- kniga pishis moy ("The book is written by me"). Some verbs always end in -s.
There are two ways of forming of past tense:
1. By means of auxiliary word bila: pishi(s) > bila pishi(s).
2. By means of suffix -la (when the verb has suffix -s, it follows the suffix -la): pishi(s) > pishila(s).
Future tense is made by means of auxiliary word bu: moy bu pishi ("I'll write")
Conditional is made by means of auxiliary word bi: moy bi pishi ("I'd write"). Word bi may be combined with tense markers: moy bila bi pishi, moy bi pishila, moy bu bi pishi.
There is no infinitive. Verbs can be put directly one after another: Moy hochi chitay kniga ("I want to read a book"). If you really need an infinitive preposition like English "to" you can use preposition za ("for"): Moy idi za gledi ("I go to see").
Articles and demonstrative pronouns
- Definite article: ta ("the")
- Indefinite article: yedna ("a(n)"), neka ("some")
- "This": tuta
- "That": tama
All of the words above and some other 'adjective-like' words (e.g. 'Plural' words mnoga ("many/much") and nekolka ("several")), optionally may take ending -u instead -a to mark that it's an object, not a subject of sentence -- usually it's used when object precedes the subject (tutu kniga moy uj chitayla -- "I've already read this book").
There is a 'predicative article' ye -- it marks the predicative part of the sentence (whether it's noun, adjective, or a verb). Mostly it's an equivalent to verb "to be". It is optional and may be omitted: It almost never is used when there is an auxiliary word bila, bi, or bu. Moskva (yedna) velika grodo = Moskva ye velika grodo ("Moscow is a big city").
Numerals
The cordinal numbers are the next:
- yedna
- dve
- tre
- chetir
- peto
- shesto
- sedmo
- osmo
- deveto
- deseto
- sto, tisicha, milion etc.
The ordinal numbers are: perva ("first"), druga ("second"), treta ("third"). All the other ordinal numbers are made by means of auxiliary word numer ("number"): kniga numer sedmo ("The seventh book").
There are no cases. When a noun is followed by other noun, the latter is considered to be specifying the former, i.e. the second noun acts like being in genitive of natural Slavic languages:
* Could you, please write some sentences / clauses without cases [declination] ?
Yes, it can be used because West Slavs write in Latin alphabet and this
Latin alphabet is their type of writing. [contrary to the East Slavs that
use Azbuka.
Anonimnik pisal´:
And moreover, in no slavic lang is letter - j used as slavic - ž
and in no slavic lang is sh used for letter - š
that's why this lang is partly germanized [English] and partly romanized [French]
===
According to the "logic" of the Eulenspiegels you are 100% correct, but otherwise you are completely wrong.
Anonimnik pisal:
Yes, it can be used because West Slavs write in Latin alphabet and this
Latin alphabet is their type of writing. [contrary to the East Slavs that
use Azbuka.
===
Eastern Slavs and Germans do say, but do not use Azbuka resp. Buchstaben. Eastern Slavs use Latin and Greek letters and Germans Latin letters.
Igor pisal:
By your logic, Anon, Latin alphabet shouldn't be used because it is Latin origin, not Slavic.
===
Korekt, Igor! And Cyrillic alphabet is of Greek and Latin origin, and not Slavic.
Anonimnik pisal:
This is the only right alphabet that should be used by all Slavs :
a b c cx d e f g h i j k l m n o p r s sx t u v z zx
And there would be no problems about mutual communication.
===
и тож:
This language is a pidgin. It’s designed not for inter-Slavic communication, but for as easy as possible communication between Slavs and non-Slavs. It’s oriented to be spoken, not to be written. Its orthography is designed to be somewhat familiar from the first sight to anyone who knows basics of English alphabet. Its grammar is designed not contain anything which can be absent in the native language of ‘user’, or not to make the ‘risqué’ features obligatory at least. All the main words (nouns, adjectives, verbs) are or can be unchangeable, which makes it very easy to borrow other words (most likely English or German) that can be familiar for both the speaker and the listener.
Tuta yazik ye pidjin. Toy delaylas ne za komunikatsia mej Slaven, ale za prosta-yak-mojna komunikatsia mej Slaven i ne-Slaven. Toy orientuys za govorinie, ne za pishinie. Toya ortografia delaylas za znama iz perva gled do vsekoy kto znay baza Angliska alfabet. Toya gramatika delaylas za ne imay necho cho moji ne dostavay vo rodna ‘yuzerska’ yazik, ili po-mala ne delay taka ‘riska’ spetsifichnost yak oboviazna. Vsa glovna slovovstvo (substantiv, adyektiv, verb) ne izmenis ili moji ne izmenis — tuto delay toy prosta za zaymuy ina slovovstvo (nayvishe mojna Angliska ili Germanska) koya moji znakoma do i govoritel i sluhaytel.
As you can see, I abandoned my ‘add -o’ recommendation. I decided that suffixes like -vstvo are too difficult for pronunciation anyway, and there is no real use in ‘smoothing’ it. Also, I’m thinking about distinguishing of adjectives and adverbs.
Yak vash moji vidi, moy prestayla ujivay rekomendatsia ob pridavaynie -o. Moy reshila cho taka sufiks yak -vstvo vseyaka ye nadmerna slojna, i toy ne bu davay dobro za ‘gladi’ toy. Takje, tutchas moy rozmisli ob rozdelinie adyektiv i adverb.
Quite a good pidgin. It isn't as logical and schematic as mine was, but it means that it is closer to natural pidgins.
To make pronunciation easier, ending -o may be added to any word ending in a consonant: noj = nojo ("knife"). Also, any -o noun can lose this ending and became a zero-ending noun: yezero = yezer ("lake").
Some Slavic words that naturally have zero-ending always take the ending -o: pso ("dog"), sno ("dream"). (It mostly concerns the words with a dropping vowel).
The facultative recommendation is the next: a word should not end in a plosive (b, p, d, t, g, k), a consonant cluster or in j and ch -- when it occurred it's better to add -o after. A word may and in a vowel, a single liquid or nasal (l, m, n, r), a half-vowel (y), or an unvoiced fricative ch, f, h, sh -- when it occurred you may remove -o after it.
To me, this looks similar to my very first proposal of GS-Slovianski. I had nouns that ended in "-a", but this ending could be dropped if it didn't create a pronunciation difficulty.
All the other ordinal numbers are made by means of auxiliary word numer ("number"): kniga numer sedmo ("The seventh book").
Good idea! It could solve the problematic ordinal numerals in my pidgin, if I wanted to develop it more.
Igor ne razumit:
I don't understand why it's called the Slovio alphabet, when have been using the x convention for a longer time.
===
Esperantists like you and Gabriel hated it! That´s why!!! Greenhorn, Pahol!!!
Gabriel: Hanyu Pinyin (OFFICIAL Chinese transliteration) uses x to represent an alveolo-palatal voiceless fricative (like Polish s'), Basque and Catalan and other Iberian languages spell sx as just x, Albanian uses xh for the sound dzx.
Of course, the example of Catalan and other similar Romance language is the most important one because sx is a very common sound. It is now pronounced hx in Spanish, as in Mexico. But the original name of Mexico is mesxiko which got written as Mexico by the missionaries that came there because that's the only way they know how to write sx in Spanish. While the pronunciation change already took place, they were aware that x in the thirteenth century represented sx in Spanish which is why they chose to transcribe it that way.
Yes, this is about one sound that is represented fully or partly by x in the particular language. But the alphabet proposed by Slovio-ists represents three sounds with the help of x.
But Esperanto is not a natural language. I mean, Esperanto doesn't have any particular group of people to which the language should look beautiful and natural, but the inter-Slavic langauges do have it: it's Slavs.
Gabriel verit:
...it is difficult for you:- to wash the part of my brain that deals with aesthetics...
===
Sorry Gabriel, but if this part is dirty we have to clean it. No way!
---
I always thougth that you are a German but now I realized that you are an infantile Somali. They also hated the X, thinking that it is a christian symbol.
But their pathalogical part of their brain has been washed properly and now the use the X in their daily writings as any other normal human being.
I THINK USING "X" IS MORE LOGICAL AS USING "H" AS ENGLISH DO THAT.
"X" DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING EXCEPT MULTIPLYING MARK IN MATHEMATICS [OR SOMETHING
UNKNOWN].
"H" MEANS "H" AND WHEN YOU PRONOUNCE IT NEVER MEAN SOMETHING FOR SOFTENING
CONSONANTS.
"C" + "H" = C H AND NEVER Č
"S" + "H" = S H AND NEVER Š
"Z" + "H" = Z H AND NEVER Ž
"X" CAN BE WRITTEN AS "KS" OR "GZ" [in latin alphabet]
SO WHY WRITE IT AS "X" WHEN "KS" AND "GS" ARE AVAILABLE.
SO "X" IS A SYMBOL THAT IN WRITING DOESN'T HAVE A TYPICAL SOUND THAT WOULD
CHARACTERISE IT. SO THIS SYMBOL IS FREE. AND THAT'S WHY WE CAN USE IT FOR
"SOFTENING" OF SOME CONSONANTS.
DIFFRENT SITUATION IS IN AZBUKA OR GREEK ALPHABET. BUT I JUST KEEP LATIN
SCRIPTURE, SO THIS MATTER IS OUT OF POINT FOR ME.
I use the "one letter one sound" logic and the shapes of letters.
(It is a well known fact that you don't like everything non-ASCII, so instead of typing Cyrillic letters directly, let me give links to Wikipedia articles about them.)
Anyway, you also don't give any reasonw how x is related to the sounds you would like to type as cx, sx, zx . You just say that the letter x is "empty" in fact and can therefore serve as a marker, but by our logic, c, q, w or y also have no typical sound that would be irreplaceable with other letters.
but you are mixing 2 different alphabets together.
Azbuka or Cyrilic or Greek alphabets are different from Latin one.
You cannot simply mix some "x" with russian "x" and "w" with russian "š"
or "šč".
They are totaly different letters.
It is as you would mix up apples with pears.
Or chinese signs with hebrew ones.
Unfortunetelly, nobody has proclaimed special signs for soften : c, s, z.
and it pays for our "ch" that was taken over to czech and slovak languages from german language.
The language is based on a project of mine I titled Ru'skaya Jenskaya Baskitbolskaya Pi'djin (“Russian Women’s Basketball Pidgin”). The idea of that jargon came to me after I watched a on a local TV channel a news report about two new ‘legionnairesses’ accepted by the local Krasnoyarsk woman’s basketball team Shelen. They were two nice looking girls from USA and Australia — both of them knew no more than two or three words in Russian (despite the fact that one of them had Russian name “Nadya”). There were shown their new Krasnoyarsk lodgings and huge Russian language books (500 pages thick paperbacks). I tried to imagine them studying these books… and I felt sorry for them (I kinda can’t imagine that two pretty basketball-player girls are can be talented linguists). But do they need it? All they need is to produce expressions like ‘Catch this damn ball, you moron!’ and ‘No more vodka please!’
The most difficult feature of Russian is its numerous endings that accord to myriads of different rules. But we Russians hardly try to pronounce these endings in quick speech. All we need is more-or-less natural word order and correct stress in words (the stress is very important for Russian pronunciation). That’s how I got that language: its adjectives and past tense verbs are feminine (because it’s a ‘girls’ language’), verbs are based on Russian imperative forms (because basketball players usually deal with commands), every word has a stress marker (look at expression Ru'skaya Jenskaya Baskitbolskaya Pi'djin — apostrophes show the stressed vowels; words Jenskaya and Baskitbolskaya don’t have it ’cause vowels e and o always are stressed — otherwise they would turn into i and a according to Russian phonetic rules), spelling strictly follows the pronunciation and is based on English graphemes. In fact the language hardly has any grammar — when you learnt several words you already can construct some simple sentences of them. I really liked the result but I’m afraid you wouldn’t be able to appreciate it (except Igor maybe) ’cause you have to know Russian very well for it.
What I presented here is a Pan-Slavonized version of RJBP. Alas I had to abandon its ‘phoneticness’, because different languages have too different pronunciation and stress the words on different syllables. But it still inherits some features, including being ‘too feminine’.
Moy osnovay ta yazik na moya proyekt koyu moy zovi Ru'skaya Jenskaya Baskitbolskaya Pi'djin (“Ruska Jenska Basketbolska Pidjin”). Idea toya jargon priydila do moy posle moy gledila izvestie na lokalna TV kanal ob dve nova ‘legioneresa’ koyu priymuyla Krasnoyraska jenska basketbolska komanda Shelen. Tuta bila dve simpatichna devchina iz Avstralia i Amerika — i ta i ta ne znayla vishe nej dve ili tri slovo po Ruska (hochaj yedna iz ih imayla Ruska ime “Nadia”). Tam pokazayla iha nova Krasnoyarska dom i iha ogromna kniga Ruska yazik (pet-sto stronitsa vo mekka oklad). Moy probuyla viobrazi yak ih bu uchi ta kniga... i ya jaluyla ih (moy ne moji viobrazi cho dve krasna devchina basketbolchik moji buy talantna lingvist). Ale li ih trebay toy? Vsa cho ih trebay ye za govori necho yak ‘lovi ta prokleta miach, idiotka!’ i ‘Moy ne trebay vishe vodka, pliz!’
Nayvishe slojna spetsifichnost Ruska yazik ye toya pre-mnoga fleksia koya akorduy do tisicha rozna pravilo. Ale Ruska nash nayblizka ne probuy vigovori ta fleksia vo shibka govor. Vsa cho nash trebay ye vishe-ili-mene natutalna slovo, i korektna aktsent vo slovo (aktsent ye pre-vajna za Ruska vigovor). Tuto ye yak moy delayla ta yazik: toya adyektiv i bila-vremevska verb ye feminin (za to cho toy ye ‘devchinska yazik’); moy osnovayla verb na Ruska imperativska form (za to cho basketbolchik obichna komanduy ili komanduys), kajda slovo imay ukazaynie ob aktsent (gledi na viraz Ru'skaya Jenskaya Baskitbolskaya Pi'djin — apostrof pokazay glaska pod aktsent, slovo Jenskaya and Baskitbolskaya ne imay toy, za to cho glaska e i o vsak ye pod aktsent, inache ih bi staylas vo i i a po pravilo Ruska fonetika), ortografia stroga odpoveduy vigovor i osnovays na Angliska bukvavstvo. Vo praktika ta yazik nayblizka ne imay neka gramatika — posle tvoy uchila nekolka slovo tvoy uj moji konstruktuy naka prosta fraza iz ih. Moy {ochen} nravila ta rezultat, ale ya boyays cho vash ne moji otsenit toy, za to cho vash trebay zanay Ruska velmo dobora za to.
Cho ya prezentuyla tut ye versia RJBP koyu moy delayla za Vsa-Slovenska. Jal cho moy bila trebay ostavay toya ‘fonetikskost’, za to cho rozna Slavenska yazik imay pre-rozna vigovor i aktsentuy slovo na rozna glaska. Ale toy yednak nasleduy neka toya spetsifichnost, toy vkluchay toya ‘pre-jenskost’.
To Eugeniusx. It’s not fair! Gabriel is Eulenspiegel, iopq is greenhorn, and I’m just some pohol. Why I can’t be something more respectably sounding?
Mi osnovaj ezik na mi-projekt ktori mi imenij "Ruska Jenska Basketbolska Pidjin". Ideja zxargon pridij do mi posle mi gledij novost na lokalni TV kanal o dva novi "legioneresa" ktori bili primatij do Krasnojarski zxenski basketbolski komanda Sxelen. Tut bili dva krasni devica iz Avstralija i Amerika i nikto iz to devica ne znaj visxe nezx dva ili tri slovo po Ruski (ne gledij na to cxo edin iz to devica imaj Ruski ime "Nadia"). Tam bili novi dom ot to devica i veliki kniga Ruski ezik ot oni (pet sto stranica v meki oklad). Mi pokusit mislit kak to budut ucxit kniga... mi socxuj muka oni (mi ne mozxij mislit cxo dva krasni devica basketbol mozxij bit talantni lingvist). Ale li oni trebaj to? Vse cxo oni trebaj e govorij necxo kak "lovij kleti klabo, kurva!"
Notice I use -la, -ra, instead of -lo, -ro because I decided to just vote
same thing for -e in a lot of places, it's just more common
the pronoun list decreased... I just use mi, vi and oni now
the distinctions in gender, animity, and number disappear
if some parts seem too Russian, blame the original author, I copied a lot of the words
I'm sorry, I've made some mistake. What I posted above was the first draft (i.e. the one I wrote before I consulted any dictionaries) -- it's supposed to be too Russian (e.g. {ochen} means that I have to replace it with yet something), and naka, dobora and zanay were typos. For some reason I posted it instead of the last version of the translation.
Your Sl-S doesn't have past tense?
Why pokusit ends in -t?
Why you use "ot" in kniga Ruski ezik ot oni and don't use it in muka oni?
Notice I use -la, -ra, instead of -lo, -ro because I decided to just vote
OK, let's just vote:
the vowel before l or r - o 2 votes (east Slavic), nothing 4 votes (west and south Slovic)
the vowel after l or r - o 3 votes (east Slavic, Polish), a 3 votes (Czech-Slovak, south Slavic), o represents a bigger population
I will agree that it should be -ro and -lo, that's a convincing argument.
Also, it should really be "Mi pokusij mislit" because I was thinking of the infinitive and wrote it in both places
I use ot to disambiguate
"kniga Ruski ezik ot oni" means (book of (Russian language)) of them
"kniga Ruski ezik oni" means (book of (Russian language them))
since it's their BOOK and not their LANGUAGE I used ot to change the meaning
but "muka oni" means the same thing whether it's (torture of (them)) or (torture of them) so ot is not necessary
Ah, but we're speaking in terms of my Slovianski-S project which has no derivation, but only suffixes and prefixes
it is actually a lot more reminiscent of computer languages than natural languages to me
Prolog:
?- factorial(3, W)
W=6
Slovianski-S:
Faktorial tri e cxo?
To e sxest.
I prefer this word order to the natural one for logical reasons:
In Russian one would ask "Kogo on ubil?" because those two words are in different cases.
But without cases it's just simpler to say "Oni ubil kto?" (oni is gender and animity neutral)
