But we don't need to care about this order now. Firstly, I would like to ask everybody for cooperation in order to find the most neutral word for "alphabet". For example, "azbuka" in Czech means not "alphabet", but "Cyrillic alphabet", and "alfabet" means not "alphabet", but "Greek alphabet". (It is logical if you look at the origins of these words.) What do the other candidates (abeceda, alfavit, abetka) mean to Slavs? Do they generally mean "alphabet" or are they also biased as some particular national alphabets? For example, I can imagine a situation that in some Slavic language, "abeceda" would mean only "Latin alphabet" etc.
In German we often call the alphabet the ABC, pronounced abece. This indicates the first three letters of the Roman (and most other West European) alphabets. It's only three syllables instead of four, and if Slovio does not hesitate to speak of zxen, rib and ruk for zxena, riba and ruka, then cutting syllables clearly is quite in order.
As far as I know, Gabriel, you are against foreign words adopted into all-slavic language.
On the other hand you propose name for ABCD... as alfabet, that comes from greek word alfabeta or alfabet. And this is NON - SLAVIC WORD then.
You DO NOT KEEP your principles and rules.
YOU CANNOT HAVE YOUR ALFABET OR ALFAVIT OR ALFABETA BECAUSE IT IS NOT SLAVIC WORD.
S- lingva has ABCD that correspond with real slavic alphabet.
I use words that are most commonly used in Slavic languages, regardless their origin. (On the contrary, you usually use words that are most commonly used in English, Romance languages, Latin and Greek, regardless their understandability to Slavs.)
The word "ABCD" comes from the alphabetical order that is not used by a majority of Slavs.
Give up, you never actually look at languages other than Slovak
In fact, when you know Czech has a word that disagrees with Slovak it's always a Czechism and not simply the effect of THE MAJORITY OF LANGUAGES HAVING THAT WORD
You never have a system and concoct a language without any principles or plans, but only on random thoughts alone
Slovianski doesn't use a higher proportion of Graeco-Latin words than an average Slavic langauge does. However, your language uses much higher proportion of Graeco-Latin words than any Slavic langauge does, that' why we advised you to rename your language.
Actually, Ioannes, I tricked you to say that I used Russian words. I actually looked up every single word in 7 dictionaries. When I found it in the Polish dictionary, the Czech dictionary, the Bulgarian dictionary I WOULDN'T MENTION IT.
I would just say "Russian has this word"
Now I know you don't check your words in dictionaries because otherwise you would say "This word is not only in Russian, but also in Ukrainian, Belarusian and Polish"
Notice I said "x word means this in Russian" and I didn't say it didn't mean the same things in other languages! I knew you would assume I only compare to Russian and Ukrainian. But this isn't true. This is why you won't succeed in creating a good Pan-Slavic language - you never look beyond Slovak and Czech.
Look, I've never said that s - lingva should be just one artificial slavic language. It is just a project how this language should look like.
In present day world more and more young people from post communist slavic countries prefer speaking foreign languages and even they use more and more foreign words in their own mother tongues ( Polish, Czechs, Slovaks, Croatians, Slovenians .....)
They don't care about if it's foreign word or not - they simply use them.
More and more day by day. You cannot influence this process by dictate them to use just "words of slavic origin". Probably older generation keep using more home slavic vocabulary than foreign and among them are also people of higher education that prefer using "internationalisms" to mother tongue words.
So, you allegation that the Slavs should use just their mother tongue words of slavic origin is just your wish but not reality. And your idea of such all-slavic language that use only or mostly slavic words is fading away by every day.
I meet lots of people from Eastern Europe that use more and more foreign words in their debates and trying to speak in simple grammar (it's remarkable mostly on internet by chatting each other).
Who cares now if that is foreing or original slavic word ? None of young generation. So your project to create a language consisting the words mostly
just of slavic origin is just a phantasy in your heads but reality is different. Look and hear the young people round you and you will find out that such project of inter-slavic language is just your zealous wish.
I consider a word to be used/understood if it is listed in the language's dictionary. If it isn't there, it means that
- it is a volatile trend that may be over a few years later
- it is used/understood by a minority of the speakers of the language only, for example by the young generation only
- it is used/understood only in your imagination
OK, so give us clear and objective design principles by which you are guided when you create vocabulary and which would produce basically the same result if someone else used them.
For example, the design principles of creating vocabulary for Slovianski-P are:
1) Look up the word in the dictionaries of at least six Slavic languages. Each of the six groups should be represented by at least one language. The groups are:
- Russian
- Ukrainian+Belarusian
- Polish
- Czech+Slovak
- Serbian+Croatian+Bosnian+Slovenian
- Bulgarian+Macedonian
2) One vote belongs to each group. This vote can be divided into fractions, if the language(s) within one group have more than one word.
3) Words that are confusing, i.e. that would mean something else in some other Slavic language(s), are discarded.
4) The words with obviously the same ethymology are grouped together. The ethymology with the highest number of votes wins. If two ethymologies have the same number of votes, the real numbers of speakers decide.
5) From the words of the winning ethymology, the most common form is chosen according to the method of corresponding letters. If two forms have the same number of votes, the real numbers of speakers decide.
As you can see, in these design principles, the "Slavic origin" of the word is never mentioned. Just the majority rules.
What are your design principles when you create your vocabulary?
(If I dared to guess, the design principles of S-lingva vocabulary would be:
1) In most cases, the Graeco-Latin word is adopted.
2) If the random thought that has just arrived to Ioanes' head says that it doesn't like the Graeco-Latin word, the Slovak word is adopted.)
Gabriel poucxit nams:
...For example, "azbuka" in Czech means not "alphabet", but "Cyrillic alphabet", and "alfabet" means not "alphabet", but "Greek alphabet". (It is logical if you look at the origins of these words.)...
===
Gabriel ja tebe skazal neskolk raz zxe slovo "logik" dla tebe ne es dobrju.
Stirat to od tvoi slovar.
Alfa i Beta es Semitju slovos. No ale do ktom ja to skazat: Do ludis kto verit ze krova i bik zxrat trava? Li zxe oni vegetarian?
For example, the design principles of creating vocabulary for Slovianski-P are:
1) Look up the word in the dictionaries of at least six Slavic languages. Each of the six groups should be represented by at least one language. The groups are:
- Russian
- Ukrainian+Belarusian
- Polish
- Czech+Slovak
- Serbian+Croatian+Bosnian+Slovenian
- Bulgarian+Macedonian
Why did you decide to sort out the Slavic languages like this ? Do you think it is right ?
- WHY DO YOU PUT RUSSIAN LANGUAGE SEPARATELY FROM OTHERS AND E.G. SERBIAN, CROATIAN, BOSNIAN, SLOVENIAN AND CZECH, SLOVAK AND UKRAINIAN, BELARUSSIAN TOGETHER ?
Sorry Gabriel, it seems to me as it was year 1968 and after in former Czechoslovakia. Russian dictate us what is good, what we should and shouldn't do, how life we should live how to behave, how to brought up our children etc. etc. etc. and now you put russian language again as it was done for the last 40 years in former communist countries.
It's not right and you know it very well (I do not know how old you are but I remember very well how it was before 1989.
Russians and russian langugage mustn't dictate us what is good and what is bad any more.
I do not want to scutch this language. BUT it should be at the same level of importance as the other Slavic languages. So, better separate each language and let's consider them equally.
Or put together Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian languages as it is done with former Yugoslavian languages or Czech and Slovak because there is no big difference between them.
It isn't possible to base the voting on such shaky term as "language" is. For example, one of the west Slavic revivalists in the 19th century (I don't remember his name, maybe Safarik or Kollar) thought that there are only four Slavic languages: east Slavic (i.e. Russian), Polish, Czecho-Slovak and south Slavic (i.e. Serbo-Croatian). 20 years ago, there was Serbo-Croatian, and now we have Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and soon will have Montenegrin. Macedonian is sometimes considered to be a dialect of Bulgarian. Slovak was once considered to be a dialect of Czech by some people. Sorry, I don't want to change my voting system whenever the political situation changes.
If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages#Branches , you will find out that west Slavic can be further divided into northern (Polish) and southern (Czech and Slovak). South Slavic can be further divided into western (Serbo-Croatian, Slovenian) and eastern (Bulgarian, Macedonian). Only east Slavic has no such further subdivision, but if we want east Slavic to have two votes, too, I think every non-russophobist would agree that the biggest Slavic language should be in a group of its own.
Of course, I can't satisfy your wish that Graeco-Latin should have 4 votes, Slovak 1 vote and other Slavic languages 1 vote together, except for Russian that has no vote at all.
pe rec
pe rec /2
pe rac /2
pep r
pep r /2
papar /3
poper /3
piper
The first letter: all words have p.
The second letter: a - 1/3 votes, e - 3+1/2 votes, i - 1 vote, o - 1/3 vote => e wins.
The third letter: nothing - 2 votes, p - 3+1/6 votes => p wins.
The fourth letter: nothing - 3+1/2 votes, e - 1+1/3 votes, a - 1/3 votes => nothing wins.
The fifth letter: all words have r.
The sixth letter: nothing - 3+1/6 votes, a - 1/2 votes, e - 1+1/2 votes => nothing wins.
The seventh letter: nothing - 3+1/6 votes, c - 2 votes => nothing wins.
So the most common form is "pepr". However, most languages don't have a word that is so difficult to pronounce. There are two possible solutions:
- to insert something between "p" and "r" - this solution has got 1+1/6 votes.
- to insert something to the end - this solutions has got 2 votes, so it wins.
The first letter: all words have l.
The second letter: a - 3 votes, e - 3 votes, e represents a bigger population, so e wins.
The third letter: all words have b.
The fourth letter: e - 3+1/2 votes, i - 1/2 votes, o - 1/2 votes, u - 1+1/2 votes, so e wins.
The fifth letter: d - 5 votes, t - 1 vote, so d wins.
And I assume there are lots of such words that are understandable in some or majority of slavic countries but what about the rest of them. The population (that are millions of them) will not understand the other words and vice versa.
There would be more problems with not such absolutely common words as using international adopted words that are generally understand by these people.
In this way, I think, better is Slovio's vocabulary that has already got some feedbacks from other Slavic countries that it is quite well understandable.
Although, there are also some very queer weird and sometimes funny words that would some problems as well. But it's just a question of time to change them.
And I haven't mentioned scientifical and professional terminology yet that is very different in words even among slavic languages.
e.g. medical, geological, archeological, industrial, engineering, psychological, meteorological, chemical, physical, juristical terminology,
terminology of different parts of engines, equipments, gadgets, working procedures, processing of metalurgy and different branches of heavy industry, zoological and plant terminology, naming of various parts of tools, instruments and apliances etc.
DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT YOU DARE SORT OUT THIS WORDS PROBLEM ?
Gabriel trys to be scientific but he is not at all.
His dictionarys are, e.g., out of date after being published. So his conclusion that pomidor will be understood much more than tomat is everything but wrong! All Slavs who can read, anderstand tomat but maybe not all pomidor. And tomat (the original word for tomato) is an international word known by everybody who is literate and lives under this sun.
If you do this you would brake your "Slovianski's rules" because lots of these scientific terminology is translated into Slavic languages.
I can do that because S-lingva doesn't have "such rules" and I have never said that I have to use just slavic origin words - even if they are in majority.
I can use e.g. for mushrooms name FUNGI or leaf could be FOLIS or cell could be CELULA but in Slovianski you MUST KEEP SUCH WORDS THAT ARE IN MAJORITY IN THE SLAVIC LANGUAGES. And then you'll see how difficult it is because lots of these words arn't in majority in several slavic langs. You'll see that there are some words that are different in almost every slavic lang. If there is some resemblance then just in two or tree of them but it's not enough to decide that word for all 13 Slavic countries. Majority would be if certain word is at least in 7 slavic countries almost the same.
If it's translated, then it will be taken as translated, if not, it's not translated.
Gribi, list, kletka.
I don't decide on whether each country understands. Otherwise, South Slavic will win every vote since it has the most countries! In our voting scheme each branch has as many votes.
YES, BUT YOUR " KLETKA" AND S-LINGVA "CELULA" IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.
I WROTE " CELULA" not "KLETKA" so you must distinguish these two words.
Of course, "CELL" is either a "cage" and a "cell" that is a single unit or compartment, enclosed by a border, wall or membrane. As a term, cell has become general-purpose metaphor for building blocks which serve to compose larger structures.
On one hand there is "CELULA" on the other there is "CELA"
S-lingva is able to distiguish these two meaning.
If English doesn't - it is its problem, but I suppose your artificial lang
should distiguish it as well. Or do you have the same word for both meanings like English has ?
OK, POMIDOR won but Czechs, Slovaks, Serbians, Croatians, Slovenians,
Bulgarians and Macedonians WILL NOT UNDERSTAND what it means.
Yes, about 50 million Slavs won't understand it, as opposed to about 240 million Slavs who will. Or do you know a word that all approximately 290 million Slavs will understand?
OK, PEPREC won but Slovaks and probably Serbs, Croats, Slovenians, Bulgarian and Macedonian WILL NOT UNDERSTAND what it means.
Yes, maybe about 40 million Slavs won't understand it, as opposed to about 250 million who will. Or do you know a word that all approximately 290 million Slavs will understand?
So Russian is COMPLETELY irrelevant to this discussion. Now we're just discussing the other languages. And the rest have pomidor - who cares what the original word was? The Nahuatl didn't invent the fruit, it's been there for millions of years!
This is what I am always asking you. If you know some miraculous words that are understood by absolutely all Slavs, let us know. However, I wonder why you didn't use such words in S-lingva.
There would be more problems with not such absolutely common words as using international adopted words that are generally understand by these people.
If Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Serbians, Croatians, Bosnians and Slovenians had understood \"tomat\", they would have listed this word in their dictionaries. They did nether nor.
If you think that Slavs always understand the international word better than their own one, why don\'t you just use Ido (with a little bit Slavicised grammar)?
Sorry, but "POMIDOR" sounds to me as a foreign strange word - not of Slavic origin. I do not know where this word was taken from into some of slavic langs but TOMAT or TOMATO is better understood.
- WHY USE ARTICLE WHEN THE NOUN IS DEFINED WITH - O ENDING AND PLURAL WITH
- I (-J) ENDING ? THEN THIS ARTICLE IS FOR NOTHING THEN ?
I have already explained it to you so many times that it's really useless to try something again. But surely, during the Slavicising the grammar, the article would probably be the first thing to omit.
WHY USE EITHER \"il\" OR \"ilu\", \"el\" OR \"elu\", \"ol\" OR \"olu\", \"on\" OR \"onu\" ?
For euphony.
(and Esperanto has got some strange \"roof\" over some letters that is not absolutely practicle in modern writing.
A majority of people all over the world have a name that can't be written in plain ASCII. All these people are unpractical and unmodern and should be given a shot, right?
There are some other non-senses but sorry I haven\'t got time for writing about them (both Ido and Esperanto)
Maybe, but this was why I said "Ido with Slavicised grammar". You can just delete the few "nonsenses" from Ido grammar and then you will get a language that will be an ieal inter-Slavic one in your opinion. You don't need to invent any new language.
Good, so we can now explain the origin of Slavic words for "tomato" ... tomat is the original word for this idea, pomidor is a golden apple; paradajz is derived form the foreign word for "paradise" and rajczica is derived from the all-Slavic word for "paradise" (raj), so some fruit from the paradise.
