This is my attempt of writing in Slovianski-P. Of course I don't claim it to be "correct", but it could be a base for an article in "authorized" Slovianski-P.
Slovjani, najviše velika semja od evropejske narodi, s naselenije više než 250 milioni človeki, ktore žijut najveliko v Voshodna i Sredn'a Evropa, v velika čast' od Balkanski poloostrov, i za Ural'ske gori v Azija.
Slovjanska jazikova grupa, s jej mnoge dialekti, jest' čast' od semja od Indo-evropejske jaziki. Tamta grupa može bit' rozdelena v Voshodno-slovjanka vetv, ktora jest' formovana od Ruski, Beloruski i Ukrajinski jaziki; Zahodno-Slovjanska vetv, ktora jest' formovana od Pol'ski, Česki i Slovacki jaziki; i Južno-slovjanska vetv, ktora jest' formovana od Slovenski, Serbo-Horvatski, Makedonski i Bulgarski jaziki.
Počatok od Slovjani
Rane slovjani bili nejaka grupa od zemjedel'niki i pasniki, ktore žili v blota i lesi od tutčasne voshodna Pol'ska, zahodna Rosija, Belorus, i Ukrajina. Od okolo 150 n.e. Slovjanske plemena počali rozšir'at' sja v vse stroni. Na sever, oni šli po reki prez lesi od tutčasna Rosija, i zajmovali teritorija naselena od Finske i Baltiske narodi, i mnoge iz nih oni asimil'ovali. Na zahod, oni stretili Germanske i Kel'tske plemena i zajmovali mnoge zemji od Sredn'a Evropa. V sedmo stoletije Slovjani dosegnuli na jug aždo Jadransko i Egejsko mora. Nasledujuče dve storoletija oni naselili najviše velika čast' od Balkanski poloostrov, potom čast' od Bizantska imperija, vimeščajuče mestno naselenije, i slovjanujuče pribivajuče narodi (naprimer Bulgari). Na voshode, v konec od 16o stoletije, Rusi už obezpečili opora za Ural'ske gory v Azija, a v 19o stoletije Slovjanska kul'tura dosegnula Tihi okean.
Religija i Kul'tura
Jestli drevne slovjani pravdopodobno mali značna rasova i kul'turna homogennost', to tutčasne slovjani su spojene glavno po ih jazikovo rodstvo i soznanije od ih jedini počatok. Široki kontakt s rozlične narodi mal gluboki efekt na rasovi i kul'turni rozvoj od Slovjani. Tutčas, slovjanske narodi demonstrujut više velika roznorodnost' i v ih fizični tip i kul'tura než vsejaka ina grupa od Evropej′ci.
Hrist'anstvo bilo najpervo predstaveno k Slovjani od grečke misionari v 9o i 10o stoletija. Ale Slovjanski religijni rozvoj premenil sja posle rozdelenije od Voshodna i Zahodna cerk′vi v 1054. Slovjani stali objekt od borba medžu Rimski katolicizm i voshodna Pravoslovna cerkev. Katolicizm i zahodna kul'tura pobedili vsred Pol'aki, Slovaki i Čehi (hot'až pozdnej Čehi značno mali na sobe efekt od Reformacija, i tutčas oni su jedinstveni Slovjanski narod s velika protestantska menšina). Na Balkani, Sloveni i Horvati takže dali ih vernost' k Rimski Katolicizm i padli v sfera od central'na evropejska civilizacija. Serbi, Makedon′ci, Bulgari i najvelikost' od Voshodne Slovjani sjedinili sja k Pravoslovna cerkev, i prijmali mnoge aspekti od bizantska kul'tura, vkl'učajuče adoptaciju dl'a sebe od Grečki alfabet (Kirilica).
V 14o stoletije Tur′ci Otoman′ci pokorili velika čast' od jugo-voshodna Evropa. Zemji ktore tutčas su Bosnija i Hercegovina, Bulgarija, Horvatija, Makedonija, Serbija i Černa Gora ostavali sja pod turecka vlada aždo 1912. Četiri stoletija od turecko dominovanije mali gluboki efekt na balkanske Slovjani, mnoge iz ktore bili nasil'no konvertovane v Islam. Tutden', najvelikost' od Slovjanske muslimani žijut v Bosnija i južna Bulgarija.
Hot'až Slovjani vitvorili nekol'ko sredn'ovekove krolevstva medžu 9o i 11o stoletija, velika čast' od ih posledujuča istorija bila harakterizovana od pokorennost' k ine deržavi. Tutčasne Slovjanske štati pomnogo su rezul'tat od rozrušenije od Avstro-Vugorski i Otomanski imperiji posle Perva svetova vojna. Izkl'učajuče Čehi, Slovjani prevažno ostavali agrarne narodi aždo sredina od 20o stoletije. Posle Druga svetova vojna, najvelikost' od Slovjanske narodi padla pod sovetska sfera od vlada, i marksistske vladsva vitvor'ali ambiciozne programi od industrializacija i urbanizacija. V konec od 1980e i počatok od 1990e leta, s rozrušenije od Sovetski sojuz, mnoge evropejske štati pošli k nezaležne demokratične vladstva. V nektore zemji, osobo v bivša Jugoslavija, toj prehod inicioval konflikt mež Slovjani od rozne nacional'ne i religijne grupi.
Anonimnik! Into Slovianski not into Slovio!
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By the way Anonimnki, I do find it very irritating and disgusting that you Anonimnki are hiding themselves behind one name.
And it is inexcusable that quite a few of you are Slovio-Speakers.
Igor could you ls translate your following sentence into Slovianski:
"post it on the wiki, the point of a wiki is posting something and having other people fix it later"?
Correction: ot is actually in the minority of Slavic languages (Russian, Bulgarian)
most languages changed ot to od due to the influence of nad and pod
But that SlpWikia is one of the most stupid sites ever. I have a very slow dial-up connection and it drives me nuts when its main page is being loaded (it weighs 620 kB). Every time I press something I have to wait a minute at least to get some response.
I made some mistakes in the article (the head word "Slovjani" is italicezes instead being bold, there is no Contents etc.), but when I choose "edit this page" it tells me "Loading...", but loads nothing even if I wait five minutes. I tried different web browsers, but the result is the same.
I have no such problems in Wikipedia, Wikinews etc.
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Father, mother, sister, brother ..... do not have to have any article.
The definite article is given just when you mean the certain father, mother,
brother, sister.....
Look at grammar, iopq.
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They do, it's either "a father" or "the father" not just "father". Another way to avoid the issue is to write "my father" or "your father".
Look at A GRAMMAR, anonymous.
Also, "coming from" is not to be used before a person in this example. It's supposed to be used before a location. Unless the meaning is "descend" but that's a tautology, since you descend from your father by definition.
the http://slp.wikia.com/wiki/Slovjani page is 49.5kb, maybe if you enabled caching in your web browser then you wouldn't need to load the images every time
See, but you're assuming what the meaning of the sentence is. "I'm coming from a father. He's standing by the shop with his son. I'm going in the direction of a mother by the bus stop."
the http://slp.wikia.com/wiki/Slovjani page is 49.5kb, maybe if you enabled caching in your web browser then you wouldn't need to load the images every time
There are no big pictures there. The main trouble are java files. E.g. when you edit a page you have to download 642 kB of JavaScript files, and most browsers at mine give up and stop downloading them. Cacheing doesn't help it for some reason.
But this wasn't the problem Slavo wrote about. The sentence was about genitive preposition "OT" or "OD".
I see no ambiguosity in the expression "Ja idem od otec" (Or rather "Ja idu od otec", since it seems Gabriel prefers -u ending here.). At least this expressin is less ambiguous than its English analog.
The distinction of "genitive od" and "ablative od" is quite obvious: the former connects two nouns, while the latter connects a verb (usually a motion verb) and a noun.
Abigousity is arisen when we use a noun derived from a motion verb (marsz od otec: "father's march", or march from father?) or an adjective that is used with od (nezalezznost' od Rosija: "Russian independence" or "independence from Russia"?). But similar ambiguosity exists in natural languages as well (e.g. in Russian ubijstva amerikancev can mean both "murders of Americans" and "murders by Americans"). I guess in such ambiguous cases od should be understood as ablative by default, because the genitive can be turned into an adjectivial construction (otcovski marsz, rosijska nezalezznost'), while "ablative od" hardly can be avoided without major rebuilding of the sentence.
But I must admit that the "genitive od" seems to be the most controversial feature of Gabriel's Slovianski-P. The ambigousity isn't big trouble, but all these od's... create some disguiding effect. Its meaning is too different from what I'm accustomed to; it kinda breaks the structure of sentence in my head. Even Bulgarian na seems more natural and understandable to me (maybe because it creates expressions that sound too strange and hardly can be confuesed with anything).
The funny thing is that I use the "genitive od" for nearly ten years already. Long-long ago, I had to copy my many long history lessons. Of course I used many abbreviations and I dropped nearly all the endings, which made the text very unclear. That's when I started to use od to mark genitive (I borrowed it from my Polish dictionary). It means that I used a distinction back then: ot ("from") vs. od ("of"). (Of course I don't mean that we should use this distinction now.)
...The distinction of "genitive od" and "ablative od" ...
- in slovak lang we could understand genitive "OD" but never ablative "OD"
Ablative is : "O" or could be "OB". We don't have ablative with "OD".
.... similar ambiguosity exists in natural languages as well (e.g. in Russian ubijstva amerikancev can mean both "murders of Americans" and "murders by Americans").
- It may be different in russian from slovak or czech langs. We can translate
"murders of Americans" as "vraždy američanov" and "murders by americans" as
"vraždy vykonane američanmi".
S - lingva has it very simple : genitive - "ov" and here are the prepositions :
PREPOZICII - Prepositions :
pri - at, na - on, vo - in, od - from, do - into, cez - over, pod - under, nad - above, so - with, s - by means of, zo - from inside out,
po - after, pred - before / in front of, za - behind, mezo - between, among, middle, o - about/at, via – through, by means of
ku – to (direction)
o pette c'as - at five o'clock
o pet c'asi - in five hours
Junak idet do les - A boy is going into a forest
Junak idet ku les - A boy is going to a forest
Junak es vo les - A boy is in a forest
But I must admit that the "genitive od" seems to be the most controversial feature of Gabriel's Slovianski-P. The ambigousity isn't big trouble, but all these od's... create some disguiding effect. Its meaning is too different from what I'm accustomed to; it kinda breaks the structure of sentence in my head. Even Bulgarian na seems more natural and understandable to me (maybe because it creates expressions that sound too strange and hardly can be confuesed with anything).
In Bulgarian/Macedonian, na means not only genitive, but also dative and a heap of other things. That's why you once advised me to use it as an universal preposition and I later accepted this proposal. An universal preposition can be used for anything, therefore for genitive too. To use na just seems to be a little bit more ambigous than od (althgouh both are ambigous, of course).
Do you think that a request on a Wikipedia in a not yet developed language would be successful?
Wikia, the service on which I started the SLP wiki, is a semi-official place to publish test Wikipedias, but if it is low-quality, we will have to leave it.
najveliko > najvisze veliko
zahod > zapad
Belorus > Belorusija ("Belorus" could mean "a Belarusian" to some Slavs)
iz nih > iz nim (the tax paid for caselessness)
od ih > od nim
dve > dva (we have already discussed this, Slavic languages differ in whether to use "dva" or "dve" in neuter, so I decided to abandon the dva/dve difference)
storoletija > stoletija (a typo)
na voshode > na voshod
jestli > jesli
glavno > glovno
greÄŤke > grecke (Ukrainian, Belarusian, west Slavic, Bulgarian)
pravoslovna > pravoslavna (a typo?)
najvelikost' - also a good word, another possibility would be mnoĹľinstvo
Tur`ci > Tur`ki
musliman > musul'man
vugorska > mad'arska (if you remember the recent discussion, no word is probably better unerstood than this one)
mez' > medz'u
I mostly agree, or okay with your changes, Gabriel; although word jestli was taken from your dictionary actually.
It's a bit strange that you have voshod for "east", but zapad for "west". In my Russian mind word voshod is always paired up with zahod.
About dva/dve. Sure we have disagreement in neuter here. But still, having both dva and dve is a universal Slavic feature, and having dve for feminine is a universal feature too. So, I guess it may be kept (as an optional feature at least).
About najveliko. What's wrong with having naj- as a superlative suffix? It's more common than najvisze at least.
What about the word for "Christianity"? I wrote hrist'anstvo, while you wrote hristijanstvo (in your post about capitalisation).
So, now we can see that you accept only what is "closer to russian version".
It's not objective then.
russians shouldn't predominate the other Slavs. Either we are equal or let's do it independently.
The information about closeness to Russian was only an additional one, not a decisive one. We would still adopt hristijanstvo even if Russian had hristxdcbmjhnstvo.
I mostly agree, or okay with your changes, Gabriel; although word jestli was taken from your dictionary actually.
OK, I apologise myself. So it should be jesli (Russian, Polish), jestli is Czech only.
It's a bit strange that you have voshod for "east", but zapad for "west". In my Russian mind word voshod is always paired up with zahod.
"West" should definitely be zapad (half of Russian, Czech/Slovak, south Slavic). The voshod-zahod pair doesn't work in Czech, we have vihod-zapad, and zahod would mean "WC" to me.
About dva/dve. Sure we have disagreement in neuter here. But still, having both dva and dve is a universal Slavic feature, and having dve for feminine is a universal feature too. So, I guess it may be kept (as an optional feature at least).
OK, we can keep dve for feminine ... but then we should look at Slavic grammars and find out what is more common in neuter.
About najveliko. What's wrong with having naj- as a superlative suffix? It's more common than najvisze at least.
Yes, it is absolutely good to form superlatives with naj-, but technically it has to be used with comparative (visze veliko), not with positive (veliko). You can't skip one degree.
What about the word for "Christianity"? I wrote hrist'anstvo, while you wrote hristijanstvo (in your post about capitalisation).
I didn't know whether Polish -cija- was a reflex of -t'a- or of -tija-, but if iopq says it comes from -tija-, it should probably be hristijanstvo.
I looked at the Slavic grammars and dve in neuter seems to be only a Czecho-Slovakism, because neuter dva is present at least in Russian, Polish, Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian, so it wins.
I agree with Hellerick. "NAI" or "NAJ" is better than NAJVISE or NAJVIZ'S'E or so cause NAI/ NAJ is short, easy and frequently used in some slavic langs.
About DVA / DVE.
S-lingva has chosen DVE because it is for feminin and neuter genders in plural.
DVA is just for male gender.
