I wouldn´t say that so drastically. I would rather agree with Igor, who said: "yes, this is what I've done in Slovianski-N it is considerably closer to OCS than Slovio". And that´s it, Slovianski-N is moving backward using the archaic grammatical forms of OCS and that of most of the existing Slavic languages.
And that´s why Slovianski-N(isxto) is good for nothing. And if Slovio doesn´t change and gets rid of its dozens of verb forms like Esperanto it will become not much better.
Dla sxto potrebijsx adverbial participl ale ne adjektival participl?
No to perevodij:
a) perevodij i
b) POSLEDJU NOVOSTIS:
2009-01-02, piatek. Podcxas vcxeraju slavnenie 50 rocxis Kubaju revoluciaf, Raul Kastro skazal zxe Kubaju revolucia bu prezxit esxte 50 rocxis. Pred 50 rocxis povstanikis veditju ot Fidel Kastro dolvergili podkupilju marionetnikju rezxim veditju ot Fulgencio Batista. Podobuo takak v bolsxost inju krainis Latin-Amerikuf, Batista bil montirilju v Kuba ot USA-ju tainju sluzxbas. Upotrebits podobju metodis, pred neskolk rocxis USA montiril podkupilju marionetnikis v Ukrainia, v Gruzinia i v neskolk inju krainis bilju Soviet-blokuf. Zakulisju vmesxanie USA-ju rezximuf i USA-ju tainju sluzxbas v krainifs bilju Soviet-blokuf prodolgijt i soglosuo so sleditelis bu prodolgit tozx posle inaugurenie om Barack Obama.
But the only difference is that Slovianski doesn't have verb forms that don't exist in Slavic language. So if you speak one of the slavic languages, you don't need to learn all the forms, you have already got them "with your mother's milk".
The same with irregular verbs idet' and moc'. In Slovio you have to remember always: "Idit is REGULAR verb, so I must write "Ja idel"!" Using Slovianski you don't have to think about that, you use the forms that you use in your everyday life.
The same with irregular verbs idet' and moc'. In Slovio you have to remember always: "Idit is REGULAR verb, so I must write "Ja idel"!" Using Slovianski you don't have to think about that, you use the forms that you use in your everyday life.
- I use " Ja pasxol" and don't know what to do with "idel" - should it be : " Ja idol " then ?
Práce je jednoduchým výpiskem z gramatiky českého jazyka, přímo o slovesném rodě a přechodníku.
Úryvek z práce:
přechodník
-jsou to slovesné tvary, které jsou ji dnes zastaralé nebo kniní
-ve větě jsou doplňkem
-vyjadřujeme jím jeden z dějů, pokud má děje jeden společný předmět
. Děti sedíce poslouchaly pohádku. přech.přít.
.Přemysl povstav promluvil. přech.min.
.Vůdce, scházeje z hory, rozmlouval. rozvitý přech.
Libue stála na kopci. Dole v údolí pobíhal chlap přitesávaje práh přes řeku, která se umíc malebně vlnila do dáli. A Libue spatřivi to se zasnila pravíc, e vidí město veliké, jeho sláva hvězd se dotýká. A z legrace ho nazvala podle prahu Prahou netuíc, e v těch místech bude jednou opravdu stát.
Sledovali jste pozorně? Ne, nechci, abyste komentovali můj výklad Starých pověstí českých. Vimněte si slovesných tvarů, jako jsou: přitesávaje, umíc, spatřivi, Co je to?
Jsou to vechno přechodníky. Archaický slovesný tvar, dříve vcelku hojně pouívaný, dnes vak spíe gramatická lahůdka.
V českém jazyce existují dva typy přechodníků přítomný a minulý.
Přechodník přítomný se tvoří pomocí koncovek z kmene přítomného (část slovesa po oddělení koncovky 3.osoby mnoného čísla v přítomném čase)
tvar slovesa ve 3.os. mn.č. zakončen na
koncovka pro
příklad
muský rod j.č.
enský a střední rod j.č.
mnoné číslo vech rodů
-ou
-a
-ouc
-ouce
nesa, nesouc, nesouce
-í
-e
-jíc
-jíce
zpívaje, zpívajíc, zpívajíce
Některá slovesa vak mají z tvaroslovných či fonetických důvodů tvoření jiné, např.:
Přechodník přítomný lze tvořit pouze od nedokonavých sloves a vyjadřuje děj současný s dějem přítomným, minulým i budoucím.
chlapec jde a zpívá si
chlapec jde zpívaje si
dívka tančila a zpívala si
dívka tančila zpívajíc si
dívky budou tančit a zpívat
dívky budou tančit zpívajíce
Přechodník minulý se tvoří pomocí koncovek z kmene minulého (část slovesa po oddělení koncovky od příčestí minulého)
kmen minulý zakončen na
koncovka pro
příklad
muský rod j.č.
enský a střední rod j.č.
mnoné číslo vech rodů
souhláska
bez koncovky
-i
-e
vynes, vynesi, vynese
samohláska
-v
-vi
-ve
ukloniv se, uklonivi se, uklonive se
(pozn. přechodník minulý prvního typu nic,-i,-e se prakticky neuívá zní divně)
Přechodník minulý se tvoří od sloves dokonavých a vyjadřuje děj předčasný, předcházející ději přísudkového slovesa.
Pro oba typy přechodníků platí, e je můeme pouívat pouze tehdy, pokud obě slovesa ve větě mají shodný podmět. Co se týče psaní čárek, přechodníková vazba se čárkou odděluje pouze tehdy, je-li rozvitá. (např. Dívky tančily, zpívajíce české a slovenské národní písně.) Holá nebo málo rozvitá těsná přechodníková vazba se čárkou zpravidla neodděluje. Přechodníková vazba není samostatnou větou, pouze větným členem doplňkem. Přechodník je jeho typickým příkladem.
Význam přechodníků není nikterak veliký. Od přechodníků se tvoří některá přídavná jména, např.: doufající, jsoucí, vlající, minuví, vrátiví se, Samotný přechodník se pouívá spíe výjimečně, protoe dnes ji působí silně archaicky. Ozvlátněním či zpestřením můe být v uměleckých textech, avak je třeba jej pouívat obezřetně. Častou chybou je toti uití nesprávného tvaru, co je důsledek malé rozířenosti a znalosti přechodníků.
Vladimír Ajgl
pouitý zdroj: Přehledná mluvnice četiny pro základní koly, Fortuna, Praha 1992
Vladimir pisal:
WHAT IS IT "adverbial participl and adjektival participl ?
IT DOESN'T EXIST IN THE SLAVIC LANGUAGES - THERE IS JUST "SLOVESNI PRECHODNIK"
but NO "PRISLOVKOVY PRECHODNIK" or "PRECHODNIK PRIDAVNEHO JMENA".
===
Adverbial Participles
a) of course or reason
Chcac sie nauczyc polskiego, zapisal sie do szkoly letniej.
b) of condition
Jadac tam zaraz spotkasz ich jeszcze.
c) of manner
Jedli stojac. itd.
Adjectival Participles
Krahelska byla piekna dziewczyna, kochajaca ludzi i zycie.
Widziales kiedy takie male dziecko czytajace gazete. itd.
The prechodnik grammatically is a verb, but it works as an adverb. Another example of such words class mutation are substantivised adjectives (you can find something about zpodstatnela pridavna jmena in your Czech grammar).
Yes, but it's still a verb. Participium is still a verb although it looks like adjective.
We cannot consider this as any adjective or adverb but always as verb.
1. Capital "A" = letter "a" with "cidille" or "hook" diacritic mark added to its bottom
2. Formed by adding "-Ac" ("-anc") to 3rd person present form of Verb.
3. Pronunciation sound akin to = "anc" (using SLOVIO letter pronunciations > a nasalised "a")
____________________________________
a. The active adverbial participle refers to an action or state that is simultaneous
to another action or state having the same subject. If both actions
are Imperfective, it is sometimes a matter of personal preference as to
which verb will be treated as main, and which as subordinate:
CzekajAc siedzieli i rozmawiali, pijac piwo i zagryzajAc kielbasa. While waiting, they sat and conversed, while drinking beer and nibbling sausage. Czekali siedzAc i rozmawiajAc, pijAc piwo i zagryzajAc kielbasa. They waited while sitting and conversing, drinking beer and nibbling sausage.
WchodzAc na schody klocily sie. Ascending the stairs, they were quarreling. KlocAc sie wchodzili na schody. Quarreling, they ascended the stairs.
Dluzsza chwile kleczal, namyslajAc sie. For a longish time he kneeled, thinking things over. Dluzsza chwile namyslal sie, kleczAc. For a longish time he thought things over, kneeling.
b. Often the main verb will be Perfective:
PrzecierajAc chustka oczy, skinela glowe. Wiping his eyes with a handkerchief, she nodded-pf her head.
Poszedl pierwszy, kulejAc. He went-pf first, limping.
CzekajAc na jego przyjazd, ludzie zeszli ku rzece. Waiting for his arrival, the people went-down-pf toward the river.
BedAc w Londynie, poszedlem do porzadnego krawca. Being in London, I went-pf to a good tailor.
Steeven, and it's always problem with those "diacritical marks" on this forum.
Why we have to comlicate our lives more than they are.
Isn't it easier to write without diacritical marks ?
If no, then tell me please how to write the text so that I don't have to "switch" to other keyboard or change my letters on my keyboards - it's the work more, but why ?
Da! I accept that Slavic language alphabets - especially the Latin one - have diacritics.
But I do not understand why any new ConLang would carry that burden too?
Originally, I completely disliked SLOVIO's use of the sx, cx and zx; so I opted to use the sz, cz and zs.
However, I realized that for me, this was simply my own personal prejudice - and that it makes far more sense to use the "x" instead - although I may occasionally use the "z" format.
Diacritics? NET in any ConLang. They are too much trouble and I am hopefully mature enough to "get over it."
But, I cannot imagine Polish without them. Indeed, I have difficulty reading Polish without them!
Originally, I completely disliked SLOVIO's use of the sx, cx and zx; so I opted to use the sz, cz and zs.
- X is better than any -z, or -s for softenning.
X can be written as KS, GZ etc. but Z is still just Z and S is still just S. You cannot replace Z and S with any other letter but X can be replaced. And if it is possible replaced then you can write it as KS / GZ and X can be used for something else (softenning or enything else)
X is useless as a letter as we can easily replace it with some other letters but be cannot replace
Z and S.
X can be written as KS, GZ etc. but Z is still just Z and S is still just S. You cannot replace Z and S with any other letter but X can be replaced. And if it is possible replaced then you can write it as KS / GZ and X can be used for something else (softenning or enything else)
C can be written as TS. So by your logic, C is free to be used as a modifier and it is legitimate to propose CC, SC, ZC.
But, I cannot imagine Polish without them (diacritics).
Pol'ska, oficjalnie Rzeczpospolita Pol'ska -- pan'stvo polozsone v Europie S'rodkovej nad Morzem Baltyckim. Graniczy z Niemcami (na zachodie), Czechami, Slovacjao (na poludniu), Ukrainao, Bialorusiao, Litvao (na vschodie) i Rosjao (obvodem kaliningradzkim, na poulnocy), a poprzez graniceo morskao (graniceo vylaocznej strefy ekonomicznej) z Daniao oraz Szvecjao.
- X is better than any -z, or -s for softenning.
_______________________
Try to compare the same text written with X-orthography and the Z-one. I tried, and I found CZ/SZ/ZS much more easy for reading, although I am not Pole and don't speak Polish.
Well, I have nothing against the x-orthography other than the fact that nobody knows how to read it without instruction
However, everyone but the Poles can read the haczeks, and the Poles can read the z-orthography with the exception of zs digraph
this is why I prefer the haczeks, if you give a text of Slovianski to someone who's never read Slovianski before, they can read it if they know Czech/Slovak/BCS/Slovenian
Moraczewski pisal:
Try to compare the same text written with X-orthography and the Z-one. I tried, and I found CZ/SZ/ZS much more easy for reading, although I am not Pole and don't speak Polish.
===
Ok, Moraczewski read those Polish words, and you will understand, why the Z-one is confusing:
zza,zsuw, zsuwnia, zszywac, zzywac [zzxywac], rozzuc, rozszalec itd..
I use zz (well, outside Hungaro-centric jokelangs), because zs is a zxrakula borrowing from Hungarian: you adopt this Hungarian digraph, but no more the Hungarian value of s, i. e. the feature which gives this digraph some sense. In Slovianski only zsz would make at least as much sense as zs in Hungarian.
It is, collectively, for the reasons noted by Gabriel, Eugeniusx and Iopq above that I finally concluded that "X" is my preferred method of latinizing their corresponding Cyrillic letters:
ř ÷ ć = sx cx zx or sz cz zs
(I will presume that the Cyrillic letters above will not appear properly on your computer screen unless you use/change to the appropriate Cyrillic or Central/East European font setting - so, the latinized equivalents should provide you my intentioned Cyrillic examples)
I have stated in this forum elsewhere before, as in other Slavic forums, that I believe that the best option for a Slavic ConLang is one that can be most readily understood and learned by both Slavic and non-Slavic speakers. The use of diacritics, while it may give Slavic speakers warm and cozy feelings akin to their "Mother's Milk," is nonetheless problematic for use on a super-majority of keyboards.
I am not stating "Do Not Use Diacritics"; rather, keep them as an option, knowing full well that their use will appear as unreadable symbols or strange unintended bukvi/letters on most of the world's computer screens.
And, transliterating the X factor to Cyrillic is far easier than the alternative "z" or "zs" factor.
Intended consequences.
What is/are your/my intended consequences for a mezxunarodju/mezsunarodju/mezsunarode Slavic ConLang?
Have two or three different levels or dialects?
- So that Gabriel and Iopq can communicate in 7 different-gendered declensions with as many diacritic marks as may offer them comfort; and
- Eugeniusx and I can do the same with some level of fewer sexist declinings and no diacritics.
- While "Ionnes" and "Jarvi" can opt in at somewhere in between or different?
Ultimately, it will be the "dialect" most often used that will prevail. And that may come not from those of us posting to this forum, nor from the Academie Francaise - but from the general posters in the other forums (if we and they can all overcome the use of that germanic/romantic hybrid tongue - "Englisch")
"zz" is as stupid as "zs" and it is "discriminating", as I have shown above, quite a few Slavic speakers.
Sticking to this stupid contra-orthographic zz and zs looks to me as of being some kind of religion against Slovio. And you know, I hate crusaders.
That's why the best "mark" / "sign" for softenning is apostrophe that is on every latinized keyboard
and doesn't mean anything when staying alone (it has no sound / phoneme)comparing to your X, Z, S,
that have their own sounds / phonemes.
If there is CZ,SZ,ZZ - well, Z is an "softenner". But who said such utterance ?
Why not use e.g. M, or N, or B, or R, or D, or V ...... for softenning instead of Z or S ?
__________________________________________
Yes, you seem to be right... There is no apriori preferrance to Z.
The only thing why CZ/SZ were chosen is that it exist in natural language (Polish) and therefore is common for many people, even for those who don't speak Polish, but they know that this language is existing and that they use CZ/SZ. Look: even in English you write: "Czech Republik", not "Chech", and Polish surnames often remain unchanged in English! So untill Polish will change the orthography, CZ/SZ will be common to Europeans.
The problem is with Z', because even Polish has diacritical point over Z. So: ZS, ZZ, ZX, Z', ZH, Z* (whatever)... All of the options are more or less unacceptable.
The people around has used to that and now in English "world" and those who use English - it is normal.
Anything can be normal (instead of -H, -Z, -S ) there could be anything else B,D,F,G,K,L,M,N.....)
If the slavic "world" got used to any of them - it would become as normal as that English -H.
But, why do we have to use some letters from the alfabeth for softenning some other letters ?
same old problem .... as you perhaps dont know apostrophe doesnt exist on all keyboards or if it does it is very complicated to use. and.... there are several similar apostrophes on different keyboards but each had different ascii code ... so there is a problem ... apostrophe can be used as an alternative, if you want, but not replacing letters.
http://slovio.com/1/0.slovio/index.html#flexible-grammar
same old problem .... as you perhaps dont know apostrophe doesnt exist on all keyboards or if it does it is very complicated to use. and.... there are several similar apostrophes on different keyboards but each had different ascii code ... so there is a problem ... apostrophe can be used as an alternative, if you want, but not replacing letters.
I used several PCs from different european countries (using of course latin writing) in the past but there always was some apostrophe. Of course, apostrophe doesn't exist on all keyboards - the same azbuka doesn't exist on all keyboards, even chinese or arabic letter are not "on all the keyboards". But I am talking about latinized keyboards where the apostrophe is on all of them.
You don't have to "switch" you keyboard to find the "right apostrophe". It doesn't matter if the apostrophe will be just as upper comma or comma with the curved line or anything like that - all of them are still apostrophes. You don't have to use any ascii code - the same as I don't use them when wrote on German's, English, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Slovak, Czech, Slovenian laptops / desktops.
____________________________________________
why not use something that is not a letter ?
____________________________________________
This apostrophe or other non-alphabet symbol will play a bad role. Words like "c'ernju", "kas'tanju" will never be gooogled... only as "c" + "ernju", "kas" + "tanju"...
Jarvi, it's obvious that only those words are googled that are in original languages.
But if there is some wide spoken artificial language with apostrophes in words then
google is able to search for such words.
Of course, that apostrophe or -x- in e.g. C'ernobyl or Cxernobyl don't work (at least Chernobyl that is English transcription of this word) but if there are articles on web sites with C'ernobyl or Cxernobyl then be sure that google is able to find them
Ioannes, there is no language, which is using the Latin alphabet and is not using compound letters for one phoneme. And the apostrophe is used for different purposes, therefore it does not make sense to use it instead of the "x". Especially Slovaks will get confused with it!
I favor and will encourage the use of alternate systems of latinized writing in both the established and up-and-coming Slavic ConLangs. While purists may shun such an "open" approach, it invites all communicators to participate.
As I have stated previously, ULTIMATELY, one or two primary forms of spelling will prevail - example: British word: "colour" versus American spelling "color" ; "civilised" v. "civilized. " Or even "torch" versus "flashlight" - "lorry" versus "truck."
So let us get on with it!
"plus" - OR - "vicx" "bolsx" "tper" - OR - "tutcxas" "tot" - OR - "tamto" "tamtot" "onivoi" - OR - "ih" "drev" - OR - "drevo" "voina" - OR - "vojna" "cxoi" - OR - "cxoj" "cxij" "cxija" "pocx" - OR - "pocxemu" "sxirju" - OR - "sxirokju" "sxiroke" "razum" - OR - "mudrost" "razumju" - OR - "mudrju" "mudre" "zxen" - OR - "zxena" "proti" - OR - "protiv" "mlodic" - OR - "hlopcxik"
Ioannes, there is no language, which is using the Latin alphabet and is not using compound letters for one phoneme. And the apostrophe is used for different purposes, therefore it does not make sense to use it instead of the "x". Especially Slovaks will get confused with it!
I meant "latinized keyboards" - the Slovak is one of them. On the other hand you are right - even the Slovak keyboard uses "compound letters" for one phoneme, e.g. CH (German type).
The same X is used for different purposes but I don't think that the Slovaks would have any problems with confusing with it. Sometimes I write in Slovak using the apostrophe instead of " makc'en' " and everybody knows that apostrophe is instead of this " makc'en' ".
On the other hand I tried to use X for softenning but nobody knew how to pronounce it.
They knew it just after my explanation what that's for.
Sometimes it works here for me. But I must change ENCODING. Problem is, the ENCODING changes: what worked one time, does not work another time!
Yahoo Slovio Forum: Same problem. When I publish to Yahoo Forum, however, there is a WINDOW which asks which "language" I am writing in. I always answer ENGLISH. Maybe if I change to RUSSIAN, Cyrillic will work?
But then, will LATIN work?
Ugh!
Just English based keyboard that doesn't use such useless marks / signs / diacritics, etc.
===
In fact the Latin alphabet is useless, that´s why marks etc. and compound letters are required. Have you ever seen a language written with Latin letters not using this "useless" stuff?
all of the "digraphs" in latin are to fabricate the greek sounds and they were pronounced letter by letter
so ch was actually pronounced k and then h like the original greek
In Serbian(cyrillic) we have nj, lj, dj, tj as one letter, and here it is nj, lj, dj, tj.
It could be the same with sx, zx. It could be sj, zj.
And cx, gx could be tsj, dzj, since it is pronounced that way.(try saying t and sx together) It could be that way if most of the people agree, but I think it shouldn`t be. Slovio was created to be simple and easy to understand by Slavs. Since all Slav languages use Z, which is not the case with X, I think there will be less confusion using X. When some of you say that a person wouldn`t know how to pronounce CX you are not considering that if that person doesn`t know Slovio the word doesn`t make any sense to him/her anyway, but if that person has learned Slovio, then it wouldn`t have been hard for him/her to learn how CX is pronounced. If you don`t like CX because it doesn`t exist in any Slav language, than think of the (I)S for plural and (U)F for direction.
