February 14 2009 at 5:53 PM No score for this post
Michal & Steeven &
I - SLOVIOSKI (aka "Slavjo Slovio")
ALPHABET:
Same as SLOVIO; however, DIACRITIC MARKS - including apostrophe - may be used. There is no set way to pronounce vowels - for example, the letter "e" - may be pronounced either palatized or un-palatized - depending upon what one's language pronunciation preference may be.
cx = cz = c/w diacritic ( = c ~ in non-confusing cases )
sx = sz = s/w diacritic ( = s ~ in non-confusing cases )
zx = zs = z/w diacritic ( = z ~ in non-confusing cases )
GRAMMAR:
Can be Basic or Flexible Slovio or:
NOUNS:
Nouns end as they appear in SLOVIO; provided, however, a noun may be modified to the speaker's/writer's preference for establishing such things as "gender" - EXAMPLE: zxen to zxena; or jazika to jazik.
Plural Formation:
Plural for ALL nouns is formed by adding: -i
EXCEPT if a noun ends in a vowel, -i repaces the last vowel;
And sequences of -ii are shorted to -i.
okno - okni
pismo - pismi
pes - pesi
zxena zxeni
historia - histori
OBJECTIVE CASE:
(this includes Accusative, Dative and Locative)
-u (singular)
-ov (plural)
OPTIONAL GENITIVE:
-a (singular)
-ovi (plural)
Other Options: -uv, -av
"zxena sin" - the woman's son, the son of the woman
"sini zxena" - the sons of the woman, the woman's sons
"sini zxenovi" - the sons of the women, the women's sons
Ja - me - mne
Ti - te - tobe, tebe
On - jeg - jego, njego, go, jemu, njemu, mu
Ona - onaf - jej, njej, jom, njom
Ono - onof - jego, njego, tego, go
To - tof - tego, go
Mi - nams - nam
Vi - vams - vam
Oni - onif - im, nim, ih
- seba - sobe, sebe
Reflexive: se
POSSESSIVE PRONOUNS:
Moi - moj, moja, mojo, moje
Tvoi - tvoj, tvoja, tvojo, tvoje
Jegoi - jegoj, jego
Onai - onaj, jej
Onoi - onoj, jego
Toi - toj, tego,
Nasx
Vasx
Svoi - svoj, svoja, svojo, svoje, -svojih
VERBS: Present Tense:
SIMPLE FULL
Ja gvorit gvorim / gvorem itd
Ti gvorit gvorisx (or "s" w/ diacritic!)
On }
Ona }
Ono } gvorit gvori
To/Ta}
Mi gvorit gvorime
Vi gvorit gvorite
Oni gvorit gvorijut
Past Tense:
Simple: Bil, bila, bilo, bili gvorit
Ja gvoril, gvorila
Ti gvoril, gvorila
On gvoril
Ona gvorila
Ono gvorilo
To/Ta gvorilo/gvorila
Mi gvorili
Vi gvorili
Oni gvorili
Future Tense:
Ja budem gvorit
Ti budesx gvorit
On bude gvorit
Ona
Ono
To/Ta
Mi budeme gvorit
Vi budete gvorit
Oni budejut gvorit
Conditional Tense:
No gender: bi gvoril (or gvoril bi)
Ja bi gvoril/-la
Ti bi gvoril/-la
On bi gvoril
Ona bi gvorila
Ono bi gvorilo
To/Ta bi gvorilo/-la
Mi bi gvorili
Vi bi gvorili
Oni bi gvorili
Why are sequences -ii shortened to -i?
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Yes... You are right. But anyway it wouldn't be the best solution. The best for me is having -a ending in neuter plural, but it will be too difficult for non-Slavic speakers, who are part of the target audience of the language.
I suggest genderless adjective ending to be -je (i.e. plural -- it makes sense because plural ending is applied to all genders); and -ju could be objective case ending.
Genitive and instrumental case endings are too weird -- either you have "normal" declensions or you should not have any at all.
1 - genderless adjective ending to be -je (i.e. plural -- it makes sense because plural ending is applied to all genders); and -ju could be objective case ending.
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I understand. It does make sense to have "-ju" as the objective case ending.
And I actually "tortured" my co-workers (briefly) with the experiment of using different endings. In the end, the choice was made by virtue of the fact that we have English-speakers who are already using the SLOVIO genderless "-ju". To now introduce a "new," second genderless ending of "-je" in the formula, simply does not work.
The only real defined ending that Michal started with was the feminine "-ja".
The neuter was either "-jo" or "-je".
The masculine "-ji" and then "-ij" (they both sound alike to the non-Slavic ear).
The plural originally was also "-ji". Of course, that would have been very confusing (to have masculine and plural the same).
In the end, the line up is as shown in the first frame above.
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2 - Genitive and instrumental case endings are too weird -- either you have "normal" declensions or you should not have any at all.
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I am not sure what your intented points are here.
Both the genitive and the instrumental follow their normal declensions in most Slavic languages.
For the possessive, I personally prefer the SLOVIO "-voi" (or "-voj").
In the end, the masculine genitive endings prevailed: "-a" and "-ovi" - with the option of using "-uv" and "-av" (and "-ov") as well (these are similar to the SLOVIO "-(u)f".
I have some other comments, which I write below, rather than in the above POST, because I want to keep my comments separate from the grammar "substance" of SLOVIOSKI.
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(remember, in our "Slovioski" concept, any of the SLOVIO configurations are equally available. Our intent was not to substitute SLOVIO, but to expand the options so that more Slavic speakers would feel more comfortable in communicating - both with the non-Slavic speakers and amongst themselves).
...Or NO DECLENSIONS may be used, WORD order would then need to be exact and PREPOSITIONS used as substitutes - as they are in English, the Romance Languages and Bulgarian (Macedonian too? maybe).
I am personally comfortable to use any of the options - including BASIC SLOVIO, which I still firmly believe will continue to be the paramount pan-Slavic lingua franca - maybe not for the "Tamplieri - Knights Templar" of Slavonics - but for the rest of the hoi polloi, it will be "de rigueur" e.g. tourist guide books, information signs, internet communication, & who knows what else.
I also firmly believe that SLOVIANSKI will continue to make a major contribution to the ultimate vocabulary. In another much earlier post, I envisioned and still do envision THREE "LANGS":
I. SLOVIO
II. SLOVIOSKI - (or its morphed child and grandchild itd)
III. SLOVIANSKI
and who knows maybe even
IV. a major VOCABULARY group with individual language grammars.
SLOVIOSKI had several different draft versions of Participles. Originally, most of the endings included the "sx" and "cx" sounds; however MORACZEWKSI wisely counseled that we try more simple endings - except for one that MORACZEWSKI insisted be a part of the "program" (see below).
All of basic "present" endings are reflected in and from the Slavic languages that actively use participles. The past tense versions are schematical/logical - either inserting the past tense marker "-l-" or using the stand alone "bil" helper verb.
1. Present Active Adjective Participle
Primary ending is "-c**" - which is common to at least Russian, Polish, Czech and Slovak.
SLOVIO uses the ending "-tsju"
SLOVIOSKI genderless is really the same, but uses a letter "c" instead of "ts" = "-cju"
The gendered participles follow the Adjectival endings:
-cij
-cja
-cjo
-cje
2. Past Active Adjective Participle
Three methods:
a. -lc**
SLOVIO uses the ending "-lsju"
SLOVIOSKI genderless is the same: "-lcju" - but using the letter "c" to SLOVIO's "s"
The gendered again follows the Adjectival endings:
-lcij
-lcja
-lcjo
-lcje
ALTERNATIVE 1 is the use of "bil/a/o/i + present particle:
"bila gvoricja" = "govrilcja"
ALTERNATIVE 2 is the more traditional Slavic Past Active Particple - which MORACZEWSKI favored:
At one point, we tested the -m** ending, which MICHAL liked because he was familiar with it in his native SLOVAK. Eventually, however, we switched to -n**.
4. PAST PASSIVE ACTIVE PARTICIPLE
Is schematically formed in the same manner as its PRESENT ACTIVE counterpart:
That SLOVIOSKI contemplates the use of the traditional:
c with breve/diacritic
s with breve/diacritic
z with breve or dot/diacritic
alternatively to the cx, sx, zx
as well as cz, sz, zs, zz
AND also apostrophe's - for whatever purpose - be that to replace the "x," or to create the Polish liquid "l" sound or the nasalized "a" or "e" or the Russian "yerih" sound > "bl" itd.
I still have a great amount of difficulty to use any internet portal site that allows the easy use of the accented bukvis. Being Polish, I originally, preferred the use of the cz, sz alternatives to the "x" format. But I see today the better sense for me to use "x" marker.
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IOPQ: Bulgarian word order:
Thank you for that information. I am not really familiar with Bulgarian. I can certainly read and understand many words - since so many have similar Russian counterparts. But listening to it was a whole different experience.
Both the genitive and the instrumental follow their normal declensions in most Slavic languages.
...
OPTIONAL INSTRUMENTAL:
-om, -am (singular )
-om would be perceived as plural dative by Poles (i.e. by you!?), -am is not witnessed in any language as far as I know, and would be perceived as plural dative by Russians. I would suggest -em, but I'm not sure if it's applicable to feminine nouns.
OPTIONAL GENITIVE:
-a (singular)
-ovi (plural)
-a is inapplicable to feminine nouns; -ovi is not witnessed anywhere, and would be perceived as singular dative ending by some Slavs. While most Slavic languages have -ov/-ev in plural genitive. I think your objective case endings suit genitive better than your "optional genitive".
As for possessive I would suggest more natural Slavic solution: noun + suffix ov + adjective ending: sinovij (son's). Sounds better than sinvoi (belonging to nobody knows what part of speech), if you ask me.
-om would be perceived as plural dative by Poles (i.e. by you!?), -am is not witnessed in any language as far as I know, and would be perceived as plural dative by Russians. I would suggest -em, but I'm not sure if it's applicable to feminine nouns.
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Originally, we had three options for the singular instrumental - the third being (as you guessed) "-em"
"-om" and "-am" were the preferred choices by the Slavic-speakers. The non-Slavic speakers used (and continue to use) the Basic Slovio.
For "public" purposes, I suppose it would be prudent to keep "-em" in the list.
Thank you.
Helerick wrote:
OPTIONAL GENITIVE:
-a (singular)
-ovi (plural)
-a is inapplicable to feminine nouns; -ovi is not witnessed anywhere, and would be perceived as singular dative ending by some Slavs. While most Slavic languages have -ov/-ev in plural genitive. I think your objective case endings suit genitive better than your "optional genitive".
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Gender is not characterized for the Genitive.
We chose to use "-a" for singular.
The plural was originally just "-ov". It was the non-Slavic speakers who actually offered that it would be clearer if the plural "i" or "e" were added. We chose "-i".
(this effort does not bear the same "attested," "witnessed" criteria demands as Slovianski - it is a question of "What works" vs. "what does not work" in practical use -[thereby hopefully steering away from the "mozg-entertainment" element ]).
Again, thank you.
As for possessive I would suggest more natural Slavic solution: noun + suffix ov + adjective ending: sinovij (son's). Sounds better than sinvoi (belonging to nobody knows what part of speech), if you ask me.
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Would you expand that for each gender?
NP:
"zxenovja sin" - the woman's son, the son of the woman
"sini zxenovja" - the sons of the woman, the woman's sons
"sini zxenovje" - the sons of the women, the women's sons
or
"sini zxeniovje" - the sons of the women, the women's sons
"muzxovij pes" - the man's dog
"muzxovje pesi" - the men's dogs
"muzxovij pesi" - the man's dogs
"muzxiovij pes" - the men's dog
"muzxiovje pesi" - the men's dogs
Whew!
(the non-Slavic speakers like the simple "-voi" or "voj")
