2009-03-06, piatek. USA-ju kozmos-agentia NASA posred brem-raket tipuf Delta-2 gorpuskil v krug-Zemlaju orbituf novju kozmos-teleskop, Kepler. Raket bil gor-puskilju iz kozmosdrom na Mius Kanaveral vo sxtat Florida. Kepler-teleskop bu pereiskat nasx oblast Mlek-Putju Galaktiaf za Zemla-podobju obitamju planetis. Oblast ktor bu pereiskatju es v dalkost ot sxes-sto do tri-tisicx svet-rocxis. Nasx Mlek-Putju Galaktia imajt diametr okol sto-tisicx svet-rocxis i soderzxijt okol dva-sto-gigalion sunces (zvezdis).
2009-03-06, piatek. USA-ny kozmos-agentia NASA posred brem-raket tipov Delta-2 gorpuskil v krug-Zemlany orbitov novy kozmos-teleskop, Kepler. Raket bil gor-puskilny iz kozmosdrom na Mius Kanaveral vo sxtat Florida. Kepler-teleskop bu pereiskat nasx oblast Mlek-Putju Galaktiov za Zemla-podobny obitamny planeti. Oblast ktor bu pereiskatny es v dalkost ot sxes-sto do tri-tisicx svet-roki. Nasx Mlek-Putju Galaktia imajt diametr okol sto-tisicx svet-roki i soderzxijt okol dva-sto-gigalion sunci (zvezdi).
Even Slovio dictionary has mis for "cape", so I hope this is just a typo, not a new rule that proto-Slavic y gets reflected as iu, otherwise you'd have to have also siun or riuba.
svet-rocxis
This means "world years" to most Slavs, use svetlo-rocxis.
Problem with the word "mis" is the fact that it is similar to too many other words, including miss world, etc. What other alterternative for "cape" are there?
(the Slavenica transliterator converts this to SLOVIO "prilodek" - although the "ogonek a" (letter "a" with "little tail" {ogonek} on it) results in a sound more equivalent to "-an-" rather than "o")
My suggestion would be to use either:
LANDEK
or
LADEK
for "CAPE"
As far as I can find, there are no false friends for either "LANDEK or "LADEK"
Granted, it does not win any kind of "vote"; but it is Slavic, and it is an alternative to the confusing "mis" ....
BTW: I must use CENTRAL EUROPEAN ENCODING to see ogonek a...
Siuria sounds to me a little bit like sciuria (szczuria in Polish ears this sounds a little bit akin to: "rat country". The word "szczur" (sxcxur) in Polish means, a rat... Sounds hilarious:)
But... Every language has its own peculiarities:)
Slavic l'ada/l'ado means virgin soil and is related to the Germanic word land<<
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If very similar word to "Pril'adok" can be all right in its Polish form of the word "Przyladek" (Prila'dek - here "a'" stands for the nazal sound closest presented by sound kombination "on" where "a", with hacxek under it, represents this sound being almost identical to French letter combination "on" in "bon vojage" ekzample.. I don't think I remember what form this word (termin) has in Russian, but I suspect it could be very well similar, if not almost identical. I saw in few comments some funny comments about it, but I don't tionk they have any logic or will of helping in solving the problem in them.
I saw also some comment on someone taking excercise in Esperanto...
Well Not many know of it that Esperanto's structure is based right a lot on the structure of Polish and Russian languages. Thyey are a lot more similar than one could suspect... It is just very simplified and reduced to 16 grammatical rules and taking only most internationalised - at the time of its creation - words of mainly non-slavic, Latinic and Germanic languages family words. At that time French was the mainly spoken language of Europe and the world of that times, so there are quite a few french words there, too:)... There are just a few Slavic words caming indirectly to Esperanto, just its regular structure is inherited form Slavic languages.
I have impression that regularising like Esperanto, but with conserving genre and some aracteristic Slavic features could do the trick quite neatly. I see in it mainly Slovianski N and Slovio in closer cooperation + Esperantos achievements. There are quite a few, you know?
Gabriel told me it had some Russian-style idioms like confusing adverbs with neuter adjectives. But I don't know Esperanto so I'd have to trust him on that one.
Classification
As a constructed language, Esperanto is not genealogically related to any ethnic language. It has been described as "a language lexically predominantly Romanic, morphologically intensively agglutinative, and to a certain degree isolating in character". The phonology, grammar, vocabulary, and semantics are based on the western Indo-European languages. The phonemic inventory is essentially Slavic, as is much of the semantics, while the vocabulary derives primarily from the Romance languages, with a lesser contribution from the Germanic languages. Pragmatics and other aspects of the language not specified by Zamenhof's original documents were influenced by the native languages of early speakers, primarily Russian, Polish, German, and French.
Typologically, Esperanto has prepositions and a free pragmatic word order that by default is subject-verb-object. Adjectives can be freely placed before or after the nouns they modify, though after the noun is more common. New words are formed through extensive prefixing and suffixing.
_______________________
WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT WIKEPEDIA IS THAT THE DESCRIPTION OF ESPERANTO CHANGES IN ITS DIFFERENT LANGUAGE DESCRIPTIONS.
Here are the comments about the Slavic influence on Esperanto, from the RUSSIAN text, which has been Slovio'ised here:
Otnositelno slavjanskogo vlijanija na fonologicxeskom urovne mozxno skazat, cxto v esperanto net ni odnoj fonemi, kotoroj bi ne bilo v russkom ili polskom jazike. Esperantskij alfavit napominaet cxesxskij, slovackij, horvatskij, slovenskij alfaviti (otsutstvujut simvoli k, v, ks, aktivno ispolzujutsja simvoli s diakritikoj: , , , , i ).
V leksike za iskljucxeniem slov, oboznacxajusxcxih cxisto slavjanskie realii (baro «borsxcx» i dr.) iz 2612 kornej, predstavlennij v «Universala Vortaro» (1894) tolko 29 mogli bit zaimstvovani iz russkogo ili polskogo jazika. Javnie russkie zaimstvovanija eto banto, barakti, gladi, kartavi, krom (krome), kruta, nepre (nepremenno), prava, vosto (hvost) i nekotorie drugie. Odnako slavjanskoe vlijanie v leksike projavljaetsja v aktivnom upotreblenii predlogov v kacxestve pristavok s izmeneniem znacxenija (naprimer, sub «pod», aeti «pokupat» subaeti «podkupat»; askulti «slusxat» subaskulti «podslusxivat»). Udvoenie osnov identicxno takovomu v russkom jazike: plen-plena sr. «polnim-polno», finfine sr. «v konce koncov». Nekotorie slavjanizmi pervih let esperanto so vremenem bili nivelirovani: naprimer, glagol elrigardi (el-rigard-i) «vigljadet» zamenjon novim aspekti.
V sintaksise nekotorih predlogov i sojuzov sohranjaetsja slavjanskoe vlijanie, bivsxee nekogda esxcxjo boìlsxim (kvankam teorie sed en la praktiko «hotja v teorii, no na praktike»). Po slavjanskoj modeli osusxcxestvljaetsja i soglasovanie vremjon (Li diris, ke li jam faris tion «On skazal, cxto uzxe sdelal eto», Li diris, ke li estos tie «On skazal, cxto budet tam»).
>>>Typologically, Esperanto has prepositions and a free pragmatic word order that by default is subject-verb-object. Adjectives can be freely placed before or after the nouns they modify, though after the noun is more common. New words are formed through extensive prefixing and suffixing<<
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And I have to add here, this free word order in the entence is typical for Polish, very frequently used in poetry and classic literature. Although ?Esperanto has grammar closer to English, it has one declination case left - so called acusative - which makes it so mauch more expressive and even serves as sort of unique bridge between languages that donn't have it and the ones that have declinations in translating, etc. Also, it gives a lot more expressability to the language. I elieve, Slovio ought to have it as well to preserve its Slavic uniquity.
You are rit Eugeniusz, but here I let myself to use your citation with some my explanations as far as Esperanto is concerned. Some similarities are just initial, but don't go deep enough. Esperanto is a language on its own right, with some similarities to each language grop.
the similarity with standard Slovio, Esperanto and Slavic languages are their many verb forms:
Verb(al) forms of "to go"
I English
go, goes, went, gone, going.
II Slovio (and Esperanto equivalent). I may be wrong here on one or two, as I'm not quite sure I well understood the original Slovio meaning.
idit = iras: idijm = mi iras, idijsx = vi/ci iras, idijt = li/sxi/gxi iras, idime = ni iras, idite = vi iras, idijut = iranta iras; idib = iranta: itd.; idil = iris: itd.; idilbi - irus: itd.; idij! = iru!, idijme! = ni iru!, idijte! = vi iru!; idits = irinte, idils = irante, idibs = foririnta;
(idibsju, iditsju, idilsju, = I'm not sure of the meaning of those three) idibju = estus irinta/j, idilju = foriranta/j, iditju = iranta; idvait:=(this I cant understand) itd.;zuidit = alveni, aliri: itd...
III Afrikaans
gaan, gegaan.
IV Chinese
qu.
That´s why Esperanto and Slovio is so popular and easy to learn for Slavs, but very difficult to learn for non-Slavic speakers.
Your right Eugieniusz, although not exactly so. Here it is what it looks like:
V Esperanto]
ir/i - (to go)
mi
vi
li - ir/as (go)
i
ili
mi
vi
li - ir/os (will go)
i
ili
mi
vi
li - ir/is (went)
i
ili
mi
vi
li - ir/us (would go)
i
ili
I used the slash forward to divide the word root from its suffix or preffix. Normally it is written and spoken as one compound word.
As one can see, there are not really so may verb forms in Esperanto. Main similarity to Slav languages is widely used system of suffixes and preffixes, as it is also characteristic in all Slavic languages, in a lot greater degree thaqn in any other indoeuropean language group.
It is so wrong to take it as slavic, as well as an article in Wikipedia is also only partially wright. Just as much as it is wrong to take Wikipedia as a true to God source of info. Often it is written by people very, very wrong because of the low level of their knowledge or their intentions not as pure as claimed by them. Bias often plies big role in a lot of articles there:)
Zdrav
Zbigniew
Sorry. I forgot that this forum hates "hacxki" and other apostrophes and some disn't show there.
Here is correcttion: Also, I forgot of the word "ci" and "gxi" in an example, which means IT in English. Why, I just can't explain... So, as you can see also Esperanto has an apostrophe, and never has intention to resigne of it:)
The word root is "ir" to which aa appropriate suffix is added.
ir/i - to go
mi - ir/as = I go
ci - ir/as = thou go
vi - ir as = you go
li - ir as = he goes
sxi - ir as = she goes
gxi - ir as = it goes
ili - ir as - they go
In any case, only the suffixes and prefixes change, and the root word is always unchanging.
Ne znam, tolk velm maluo-maluo. Ja konsultoval dobrju gramatika (http://esperanto.50webs.com/) vo ciel pokazit zxe Sloviovoi i Esperantiovoi "verbal system" es ocxviduo podobju.
I moja konkluzia es: Oba jaziki es neprostju se ucxit. Mislijm zxe tri ili cxtir "verb forms" es dost virazxit nasxa opinia i obiasnit nasx Sviet.
Nasx ciel to kvadraturovat kolo: Imat jazik prostju i Slavju.
And this makes it so increadibly flexible. The system of sufices and prefixes is really great and makes language so much reache and full of expression, without adding thousands of words. The same goal shined to Mark Hucko when working on Slovio. Eugeniusx is right. Similarity of Esperanto and Slovio can not be doubted here. Difference ids mainly in Slovio's mainly Slavic aspect.
v esperanto net ni odnoj fonemi, kotoroj bi ne bilo v russkom ili polskom jazike
The phonemes /h, g^, u^/ are absent in Russian. AFAIK, /h/ is absent in Polish.
iz 2612 kornej, predstavlennij v «Universala Vortaro» (1894) tolko 29 mogli bit zaimstvovani iz russkogo ili polskogo jazika
Zamenhof was randomly borrowing words from different European languages. The fact that only 1% of them were taken from Slavic languages proves that Zamenhof was avoiding them.
The Alphabet seems to be the only feature of Esperanto influenced by Slavic languages. While the alphabets/orthographies of Western Europe are "traditionalist", the alphabets of Slavic languages tend to be more "radical", and this radicalism fit well the idea of radical international language.
I never would have thought that Esperanto would generate that many posts in this forum within a 1 day's period of time!
I am thankful, because I now know more about Esperanto verbs and adjectives than I ever knew before this. And it is interesting to see the nexus of Slovio to Esperanto - even more so when I read Zbigniew's recent post to the YAHOO SLOVIOSKI besed regarding using the letters "f" and "n" for certain case constructions:
About Lidwik Zamenhof - he was born in Bialystok, Eastern Poland, and "Hh considered his native language to be his father's Russian[1] (or perhaps Belarusian, which was not considered distinct from Russian at the time and which appears to have had a strong influence on Esperanto phonology)" - Wiki. don't take seriously
Zamenhof was randomly borrowing words from different European languages. The fact that only 1% of them were taken from Slavic languages proves that Zamenhof was avoiding them.
- and that's why Esperanto can't be considered the international language as it is oriented just to west European languages in its vocabulary.
International language is internationas because it should have the words from many languages not just from romance and germanic.
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International language is internationas because it should have the words from many languages not just from romance and germanic.
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If an international language has words from many languages - this doesn't make it more international:
- it wouldn't be easier to learn (even harder)
- it wouldn't be easier to understand
I don't know what features must the real "vse-svetovij jazik" have.
- it should have the character of the most common used features in the worlds languages (not just romance and germanic) - that's why it is called : "VSE-SVETOVIJ JAZIK".
And, of course, it should have vocabulary based on many languages (not just romance and germanic).
P.S.
some time ago I read about such inter-language that comprises the words from many langs from all over the world but unfortunately I forgot its name.
- it should have the character of the most common used features in the worlds languages (not just romance and germanic) - that's why it is called : "VSE-SVETOVIJ JAZIK".
And, of course, it should have vocabulary based on many languages (not just romance and germanic).
**************
I understand your point of view, you are right.
But it doesn't mean that if such language will be created (or there is already one) it will have success:
- this language will be hard to learn for EVERYONE, not much easier than to learn Chinese for Europeans or Ugric for Africans.
- this language will not be understandable without hard learning.
So, hypotetically, if we have a universal language, it is compulsory for everyone to learn it well. But practically the same if we all will learn Esperanto, Ido, LDP or whatever, it will be not a bit easier for Africans, Chinese and Papua, but only it will be easier for Europeans.
In other words. Imagine that a Chinese or an African is choosing what is easier for him, to learn Esperanto or hypotetical Universal Language? No difference! Even provided a small amount of their native words constructions is used in the Universal Language, it doesn't make it easy.
If Zamenhof would say his language is Polish he would quite possibly would-up in Syberia. As this hapened to very many Poles, sent to Syberia for using their language in schools, etc, even if school kids were cought on speaking in the street Polsih, they were in danger of having been expelled fromn the school. At the time of rebellion of youn people from Warsow Universities against persecution of Polish language and culture, son of Zamenhof, Adam, almost landed in Syberia. What saved him was hudge sum of money collected by whole family to free him. Less fortunate who didn have so much money landed in Syberia, and other remotest parts of Tzarist Imperium. At that time, the part of Poland where Zamenhof lived, including Warsaw, was under Tzarist-Russian occupation, and Poland didn't exist at all as a country. Poland was taken by Austria, German Prussia and Russia.
Also, Whole part of Poland that ERussia took under their occupation were called "Small Russia" and Polish language Russian authorities also called "Small Russian" This is exactly what Zamenhof said is his native language, the Small Russian language.
As you can see , Esperanto wasn't born in the time space very fortunate to Poland. No wonder many people not very friendly towards Poland and Poles use it in any possible way using all this to their (pseudo) advantage.
Den Dobrju Pan Zbigniew,
velm blagodarijm dla Vas artikel o opresia Jazik Polskju podcxas carju kolonializmju rezxim. Odnakuo zxe statil vo Germanju okupilju Polska. Najgorsxju grasoval Germanizacia vo Jugju-Polska, probovats eliminovat starju jazik Slonska.
Ironia historia jest, zxe Nemcju jazik vo dnesju Polska jest oficialju akceptovalju, ale nasx Slonskju jazik (gvorilju vo Polsak i Cxehia) nie.
Mr. Eugeniusx, do not you understand allusion.15% Silesians in Opole and everything is in German, 86% in Silesia, and is the official language? If Silesians wanted, it would have offices in the Silesian.And for me a whole to 100%.
You right about the meaning, but you wrong about this word having been no longer used. I'm Polsih and I use it always, where appropriate, and so use all peopel I know, and not onoly in Silezian Slang, because this is exactly what so called Silesian Language is. It is as much old Polish as many other local slangs that together have build our language. Unfortunately Polish language is a seriously sick language noww, dirtied hell of a lot by totally unnecessary germanisms, romanisms, latinisms, etc, so most other Slavs have now increasing problem understanding Poles. Also Poles who don't know any country-slang(gwara)and trying to understand other slavic nations, with exception of Slovak, Czech, and few left polabian Slavs, can hardly understand them withput serious effort.
I don't think other Slavs misunderstand Polish because of its vocabulary - nearly every Slavic language has lots of borrowings, and if it hasn't, purists have usually replaced them by newly coined Slavic words that are even worse understandable to other Slavs than the original borrowings. Polish is badly understandable to other Slavs because of its orthography and its mutilated endings and phonology. Czech has done away with the former, but retainted most of the latter, which is why it is just a bit better understandable.
