October 10 2009 at 10:26 AM No score for this post
Eugeniusx
Steeven pisal:
Eugeniusx wrote:
Steeven, ne jestijm zxena (pisalasx)
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Hmmmm...I understand.
I wrote that for this reason:
to write - pisat
You write/Thou writest = Ti pisasx (oba po Slovio i Slovioski)
Thus for my Slovioski past tense 2nd person singular I used the -asx rather than the Polish ending, which distinguishes between genders:
pisalasx
vs
pisalesx
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Zdrav Steeven,
it´s a pity that almost all languages derived from Slovio have the tendency to be more complicated than living Slavic languages.
With your invention of "second p. pl. genderless "-lasx" you not only annoy more then 50 Mill. Slavs, but you create something which does not exist in any other Slavic language.
Why are You not able to try not to "discriminate" other Slavs and accept, that we should only use these grammatical features which are common to all Slavic languages.
This would consequently mean that we (a)drop cases which are used in Slovio and its derivations and have a caseless language like the Bulgarian/Macedonian tongues. And (b)reintroduce gender into Slovio. And last (c) simplify complicated grammatical features, which are common to all Slavic speeches, like plural-ending.
If English is any exemplar of this "caseless" system that you would like to see take over Slavija, then it may also very well involve a loss of gender distinction.
Sadly, the English language - especially in government publications, signs, etc. - has become genderless.
There is no "Chairman" any longer, but a "Chairperson"
In the US, the round, heavy metal covers in streets that lead down into the bowels of the utility systems underground have been called "Manhole Covers" for decades;
They are now called "Maintenance Covers"
And a "Man-Made Device" is now a "Civilization-Made Device"
Oh Brave New World!
Lose your declensions, and you may also lose your gender!
Wasn't "Tovarisxcx" one of those terms that the communinists wanted everyone to use for the same reason?
You didn´t understand me at all. Have a look at the Bulgarian grammar and you might understand.
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English is not a good example here, because it is not totally caseless. And due to the women´s (gentive!) equality movement, the English language gained more gender-differenciation and not less as you are trying to tell us:
before: chairman (m) only
now: chairperson (n), chairwoman (f) and chairman (m)
Nevertheless, modern English grammar is since ever a genderless language because its articles do no more indicate gender as other Germanic languages do, e.g. German: der (m), die (f), das (n).
Your statement: "Lose your declensions (you meant cases, right?), and you may also lose your gender!" is just wrong.
However, Bulgarian grammar is said to be one of the hardest.
Lack of cases doesn't make the language any simpler, because instead of using case you have to be very careful with prepositions.
Prepositions do not complicate the language since every slavic language has its own prepositions so
the situations is the same in all the slavic languages whereby regardless this aspect the language without the cases is much simple than that with cases.
* it's not the right criterium for a language if it does heve these or those prepositions since the prepositions are different in every slavic language anyway. But the criterium is the cases.
People (that is, Slavic speakers) do not seem to want to give up using their declension cases or verb conjugations, with which they are familiar from their own native tongues.
Yes, there are some who will "opt" to use a simplified grammar system.
But not many.
Alas, the challenge that I experienced in working with SLOVIO originally, was that nearly 100% of the Slavic-Speakers would NOT use SLOVIO because it lacked the Slavic features with which they speak and write in their own languages. That is how SLOVIOSKI came to be created.
So, Eugeniusx, you may argue and give all good philosophical points in favor of a simple slavic language system (AND I AGREE WITH YOU!!), but if the super majority of Slavic-speakers refuse to use it, then what we have is effectively a "dead language."
You are partly right but you forgot that even within natural slavic languages there are different
word endings for nouns, adjectives and verbs. They are not unified.
So, what endings are you going to use ? Which endings would it be ?
And even if you choose some from already existing natural slavic language, the other Slavs will not
use them as they will be unfamiliar with them.
And moreover if you choose some artificial - again no Slavs will use them as they will be totally unknown to them. And the final option - if you do mixture of them, the Slavs are again unfamiliar with them and they will use their own ones.
Well, the best outcome is to use the nouns without declination and adjectives without endings.
Bear in your mind that you simply cannot use any declination endings equally familiar with all the Slavic languages.
Zdrav Ioannes!
I do almost agree with you. But one of the best features of Slovio is a common ending for adjectives (-ju) and a common one for adverbs (-uo).
Zdrav Ioannes!
I do almost agree with you. But one of the best features of Slovio is a common ending for adjectives (-ju) and a common one for adverbs (-uo).
I Steeven pisal: "People (that is, Slavic speakers) do not seem to want to give up using their declension cases ..."
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Steeven, hcesx nam skazat zxe Bulgariani i Makedoniani ne jes Slavju gvorniki?
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II Steeven pisal: "Yes, there are some who will "opt" to use a simplified grammar system.
But not many..."
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Steeven, your Slovio and Slovianski are using a simplified grammar! My experience is that the nearer a simplified tongue is to a natural one the less it will be accepted (who, e.g., wants to speak bad Russian?).
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III Steeven pisal: "nearly 100% of the Slavic-Speakers would NOT use SLOVIO because it lacked the Slavic features..."
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(a) Could you please honestly tell us what your "nearly 100%" means?
(b) Slovio without cases and without s-plural is in fact a simplified (easy to learn!)South-eastern Slavic language
(c) A person who´s refusing to learn a tongue because it lacks, in his opinion, Slavic features is a person who actually does not want to learn a language.
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III Steeven pisal: "but if the super majority of Slavic-speakers refuse to use it, then what we have is effectively a "dead language."
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(a) The majority of Slavic-speakers will refuse to learn a constructed Slavic language.
(b) Jesli Ti i ja gvorijme sodinuo i razumijme se, cxem to ne jes "mertvju jazik".
Mam pytanie! Chcialam naprawde nauczyc sie SLOVIO, ale powoli staje sie dla mnie coraz mniej zrozumiale. Mówi po polsku, znam bardzo dobrze rosyjski, rozumiem Slowakow i Czechow, to dlaczego Slovio ma byc macedonsko-bulgarskie ? To nie ma zadnych wspolnych cech ze slowianskimi jezykami bardziej z polnocy.
Jzyk macedonsko-bulgarski jest zdegenerowana pod bardzo dlugim tureckim, i czesciowo greckim, zaborami i panowaniem froma staro-cerkiewno-slowianskiego, ktory jest oryginalnie jeszcze bardziej zlozonym jezykiem niz dzisiejszy Polski. To ze wogule przezyl to cud, i dowod bohaterstwa wbrew wszystkiemu i nadzwyczajnego przywiazania tych narodow do swej slowianskiej kolebki i macierzy.
Tak wiec, "znawcy" jezykow slowianskich - jak Eugeniusz na prayklad - naprawde maja bardo skromne pojecie o czym mowia... Najczesciej uzywaja argumentow po prostu wymyslonych a opieraja sie na nikomu nieznanych "autorytetach"... Kazdy z nich chcialby przejac w jakis sposob po panu Hucko jego "Slovio", tylko nie maja odwagi otwarcie tego wyjawic. To jest az jaskrawo widoczne na tym forum... Slovio jako takie moze byc dobra odpowiedzia na pewna pseudoslowianska forme jezyka miedzynarodowego, pod warunkiem ze znajdzie sie ktos kto w koncu zacznei oryginalnie tworzyc w tym jezyku, tak jak to ma miejsce od samego poczatku w Esperanto... Jedyna skromniutka gazetka internetowa pisana w tym jezyku to o bardzo wiele za malo.
Jednakze, nam, Slowianom, faktycznie to nie potrzeba sztucznego tworu, bo przy odrobinie dobrej woli dobrze sie wzajemnie rozuymiemy. Wszystkie argumenty za "ulatwianiem" sztucznego jezyka "slowianskiego", a szczegulnie pozbawienie ich najbardziej slowianskich charakterystyk to jest z gory poroniony pomysl. U slowian sie nie przyjmie i jus, zadne argumenty nie pomoga... Jedyny moim zdaniem jezyk najlepiej nadajacy sie i strawny dla Slowian to, Slovianski-N, jego wersja naturalistyczna. Wszystkie inne to moim zdaniem poronione pomysly. Ja rowniez ludzilem sie ze cos z tego Slovio wyjdzie, ale widze ze to cos nie idzie za dobrze, i nie posowa sie nawet na krok do przodu.
According to my opinion, Slovio or any other artificial / constructed slavic langauge is far better than any natural slavic language, regardless it is with or without declination endings or any other word endings in it.
Any of nowadays constructed slavic langauges has more simple grammar that you can learn much easily than any other natural slavic language even if you are of the slavic origin and speak some of the natural slavic langauges.
That's why learning any of existing constructed slavic lanugages (Slovio, Sloviensk, Slovianski, Slovioski) is for person who comes from some slavic country easier than learning other natural slavic languages.
Let me introduce example : I come from Slovakia that means that I speak Slovak. But for me (personally) learning e.g. Slovio is much easier than learning e.g. Slovenian or Ukrainien or Bulgarian or even Polish. The only language I understand better than Slovio is Czech language as we lived years in one common republic.
Or simply said : I am able to write the sentence quicker in Slovio than in e.g. Russian (although I learnt Russian language for many years). It of course concerns grammar not vocabulary but if I knew all the Slovio or other artificial slavic language vocabulary, then there's no difficulty for me to translate any text or write quickly anything in it.
The only problem at the moment is to learn this vocabulary - not grammar that is so easy that can be learnt withing couple of hours, that is not possible at e.g. Slovenian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Polish, etc.
To jest normalne, ze nikt nie nauczy sie jezyka w kilka godzin.Ja rosyjskiego uczylam sie 12 lat Tylko dlaczego wszyscy tak to SLOVIO utrudniaja? Kiedy pierwszy raz tu weszlam rozumialam lepiej niz teraz.I wciaz czytam o bulgarsko-macedonskim podkladzie.Myslalam, ze to ma byc wspolny jezyk wszystkich Slowian.Tez bym chciala, zeby to byl jeden wspolny jezyk, ale skoro ja nadal lepiej rozumiem Slowakow i Czechow, niz Slovio? Juz nie wspomne o tym , ze wiekszosc z Nich nawet nie wie, co to jest
I don't think "ktor inju" works - at least according to Slovio "rules".
"KTOR" is shown at - http://www.slovio.com/1/0.slovio/osnov.html - as meaning "which".
So "ktor inju" would mean "which else/other"
"lib-o" is defined at the same location as meaning "any".
So "libktor inju" would mean "any which other/else" or more appropriately "whichever else/other".
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III Steeven pisal: "nearly 100% of the Slavic-Speakers would NOT use SLOVIO because it lacked the Slavic features..."
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(a) Could you please honestly tell us what your "nearly 100%" means?
(b) Slovio without cases and without s-plural is in fact a simplified (easy to learn!)South-eastern Slavic language
(c) A person who´s refusing to learn a tongue because it lacks, in his opinion, Slavic features is a person who actually does not want to learn a language.
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(a) He told about nearly 100% with whom he works.
(b) this is not a strong argument. Working with Slovioski we found much more things in Slovio that are too hard to accept for Slavic speakers.
(c) You are a bit wrong. There is such thing like national proudness, or Schprachgefuhle. I hope you understand. Especially for people who were born in Slavic countries and continue living in Slavic countries, speaking Slavic languages in whole usual life.
III Steeven pisal: "but if the super majority of Slavic-speakers refuse to use it, then what we have is effectively a "dead language."
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(a) The majority of Slavic-speakers will refuse to learn a constructed Slavic language.
(b) Jesli Ti i ja gvorijme sodinuo i razumijme se, cxem to ne jes "mertvju jazik".
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(a) unfortunately. But that's why I think naturalized language - that is most close to all living languages - will be more attractive. Unnatural features annoy much.
(b) V cxasti soglosim se. Ne videm nicxo zlogo zxe mi budemo govorit' kazxdi v svojem jazike i rozumet' jedin drugogo.
