ZVP touched on the different brand names that have been seen on Diana guns and that is certainly a rather broad topic!
As he mentioned, the actual company name is Mayer & Grammelspacher. "Diana" is their chosen trade name and the factory is called the Dianawerk. The original 1890's trademark, still in use, is one of my very favorites. That lovely lady on your airgun is Diana, Goddess of the Hunt, tossing her bow and arrow to the ground while reverently holding aloft the all-conquering air rifle!
After WW2, Diana's pre-war airgun tooling was sold to an English consortium and moved to Millard Brothers (Milbro) in Lanarkshire, Scotland. (Diana's own 1950's models were all-new designs, adding the great innovation of the ball-sear trigger, though closely based on the prewar models and sharing many model numbers.) Milbro had the rights to the Diana name in Great Britain until well into the 1980's, therefore German Dianas sold there had the brand name "Original."
The famous Stoeger Arms company imported Dianas even before WW2, and resumed thereafter. Guns for Stoeger were branded "Peerless" and used the Diana model numbers.
Winchester sold Diana guns from 1969 to 1975 under their own name. The rifle model numbers simply had a "4" prefix (for example, the Diana model 27 became the Winchester 427), while the models 5 and 6 pistols became the 353 and 363. For some now-forgotten reason, the model 65 match rifle was the exception, with the odd designation Winchester 333.
Hy-Score of New York sold many Diana guns in the postwar decades with their name attached. They had their own model numbers which pretty much had no rhyme or reason! For example the model 25 rifle was the Hy-Score 801, while the closely related model 27 became the Hy-Score 807, and the tiny Diana 15 youth rifle was the Hy-Score 808.
Beeman imported some Dianas in his early years. These actually had the British Original label at first, and were sold as "Beeman Original" guns. Later he added his own brand name and distinct model numbers, but this lasted only a short time. For example the Diana 35 rifle can be seen as the Beeman Original 35, or Beeman model 200.
The brand names Geco and Gecado were used in other foreign markets, which I know very little about. Seems I've heard our friend Trevor say that Geco was often seen in his Down Under neighborhood! Hopefully someone can enlighten us more on those names.
Dynamit Nobel has imported Dianas to the US since the early 1980's, and has used the RWS brand name. Just about all Diana airguns have been sold as RWS models, and there have even been some oddball guns unique to RWS, such as the models 66 and 68 which were variations of the models 36 and 38 rifles with different stocks. RWS has placed their names on many other brands of airgun as well, of course.
For some reason, Diana also uses the RWS name occasionally for unique models in Europe. For example, the first-type Diana 45 rifle, fitted with the odd stock used on the model 35 Super, was sold in Europe as the "RWS 45." In the US, the same designation was for the Diana 45 with its normal stock!
Hello Mike,thanks for a run down on "a gun by any other name"! As I understand it,GECO and GECADO are Distributing House names-from Germany.All the postwar German Dianas in NZ were stamped Gecado. The Milbro guns had the Diana stamping. I have Originals but they belonged to Brits who migrated here.I know Gecado was a common name in Australia also.
By and large the Milbro guns are not the same quality as the German ones-not even the much vaunted G55.Trev
Great info guys!
This is exactly what I wanted to accomplish here!
There is so much confusion over the Dianas!
I don't see, how a manufacturer that can consistantlly produce guns that exhibit only a whisper of a gap at the breechjoint,yet let their heritage, their "Customer Contract" guns and all of the related information, get away from their records!
Dr Beeman told me much of the "OLD" records were destroyed during WW2(what a pity!),it seems archiving post-war records and production info has fallen by the wayside, been misplaced, or simply considered as unimportant.
Another pity!
I recieved a corrispondence some time back from a British aquaintence,thst told of the Millard Brothers guns that were made in Britan,on that "liberated" tooling some time after the war .These Milbro's(Pistols) were marked "Made in Great Britan".
I know the Daisy/Milbros,the Models 160, 225, 230, and 250 were the Scottish versions.
The 160 was a breakbarrel, BB/Pellet rifle(bb's stuffed into the breech gasket, or to fire a Pellet,it was loaded conventially in the bore. it had a Folded Metal barrel shroud, smoothbore lined to .177.
The Model 225 was similar, but apparentlly rifled and for .177 pellet use only.
*From the origonal factory replacement costs, copied from an old Daisy Owners manual, the 225 bbl was $6.00 as opposed to $4.50, for the 160's bbl.
The 230 was an all steel barreled.22 cal.
(I have one of these and love it!)
The 250 was also a .22cal, but of more sophisticated design,also of larger proportion than the 230, with a manual safety and hooded front sight.
Though all of the 4 daisys bear the Scottish Mfg. stamp, the first 3 have a striking resemblence to pre-war German Dianas, and the 250 has the often seen saftey lever of the post-war Milbro rifles.
Unfortunatelly,I have only "kicked the tires" of a model 230, but it seems well made, with good metal fit, finish, and deep blueing.It's velocity is solid, in the 400fps neighborhood, and the accuracy and ability to digest multiple brands of pellets,with good preformances, indicates a quality barrel manufacture.
There is much to be gathered sorted out through discussion, and arranged here at this site, in order for any type of comprehensive understanding of the dissaray of model crossovers and variations to the related and re-named Diana lines, but what an interesting search it will be!
Thanks again!
Dave
Shake a tree and who knows what will fall out of it!
GECO is the abbreviation of Gustav Genschow & Co - founded 1912.formerly a maker of pistol and revolver cartridges. Today they are a distributor for DYNAMIT NOBEL. They also represent many other brands in Austria(eg Remington,Glock,Brno,Norinco,DIANA,etc)
RWS= Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoffabriken,(near enough!)they joined Dynamit Nobel in the early 30s.Now lets see when the name Gecado first appeared!Great site,Dave.Trev
Trevor,
Thanks!
I always wondered about that...
Makes sense now!
I know in the GECO powder cartrige lineup, some of the hottest .25ACP cartriges, EVER made were Gecos!
Yes, pocket pistols, another hangup...
I have seen Dr. Beeman reference to that name in his AGD #1, but I have never actually seen one.
I would also like to know how the whole RWS takeoffs of Cometa, Theobian, Carrear, and Excalibre guns happened?
I can only speculate, that Dianawerk couldn't R&D and produce a direct compeditor for each, and it was better to join up with em for marketings sake.
Thanks for hooking up with us Trev!
ZVP
Trevor, the only Milbro I ever had was a G46 target rifle. I have to agree, the build and finish quality was very disappointing. I didn't keep it very long.
Interestingly, the majority of the Milbro rifles seem to be based on the model 27 design (including the G46), quite a tribute to that durable little all-rounder. I've often thought that the 27 is one of the few designs that could comprise a whole collection in itself.
I only have a 15 and a full stocked(with top wood)G55 at present. I agree about the 27 though. Tonight I thought I was going to be able to tell you I'd scored an excellent u/l Diana Model 20 but it turned out to be the later breakbarrel gun with the same number!I have got a Webley MkI rifle on the way though-but thats another story!trev
Mike,
Yesterday I got some info from RWS, reguarding a question about my High Score 801 rifle parts.
It seems from the copys I got and the sparse information I have...
Basically the model 27 line started with a Model called the LG22.
This is the earliest of Dianawerk's rifles that I could find, which uses this size of powerplant, and the detent ball for the barrel lock.
The LG 23 and later Model LG 25 grew from that.
(*note) The model LG25 was the first of this line to use the lock screw for the barrel pivot bolt!It used the "direct(nonadjustable) trigger group of the model 23)
Later the Model LG25D adopted the adjustable ball sear detent"adjustable" trigger, and the little round ball on the buttstock.
It seems there was a model called the "Condor 226" in the late 1970's This one had a heavy barrel and "more robust stock"(whatever that ment?)
The basic Dianawerk line is the Models LG23, LG25, LG25D ,LG27 ( Here in the US it is sometimes incorrectlly referred to as the Model 27D).
These are the basic group.
There is another relative line, called the"LGD" group.
Models LG25DS, LG27S, LG27DS.
Comprised of the standard reciever group, a micrometer adjustable rear sight (similar thelater Model 27's), a fixed post/hooded front sight, different stock profile with a angled reraward cut at the fore end, and rubber buttplate with ivory spacer. These also have what looks to be an articulated cocking link(instead of the gracefully curved, solid one piece unit of the standard model) with angular shape to the barrel attachment section,forming an opposite angle to the fore end.
This LGD line included a variation of the basic Model 35, called the LGD35S, same specs as the other "LGD's", with the exception of a front Globe sight, surounding and clamping to the muzzle.
Now to further complicate this,comes along the Hy-Score companys model 801, uses the basic Model 25 powerlant,a model 23 "drifted" key mount sight group and the direct(non adjustable) trigger of the models LG 22, 23 and 25. It has no little red rubber ball in the buttstock, but has the usual non-slipping rib grooves. The forestock has the traditional finger groves on both sides.
Oddlly, H/S 801 rifle uses a locking screw
(in the old Dianawerk fashon), to lock down the cocking link pivot screw.(?)
Overall stock profile is that of the models LG25 and
LG 27.
Hy-Score then had a Model LG27 "clone" called the Model 807, which from the looks of your gun Mike, faithfully follows the Dianawerk LG27 rifles design!
I suppose HY-Score spec'd it like this for their own reasons...
I think the best way to break this all down is thru reserching parts breakdowns.
The more I do it, the more confusing it gets!
Too bad HY-Score is gone, maybe their parts breakdown lists would've told some more of that particular story. then we have to do the same with all the others,including the Milbros!!!
OH Boy!
Family tree?
Heck it is a doggone Family Forest!
ZVP
0100 here in NZ. I just got a signal from Dianawerke.
"Gecado was a registered brand of the one time G.C.Dorheim&Co. GmbH Suhl/Germany. A marketing firm.
Trevofftobed
Mike,
Funny that you brought the Condor up!
I just got corrispondence from Mr. Lewis Reinhold, of Beemans Australia where he mentioned there having been made a Condor Model 35, 45,and 75, which he has either seen or worked on there.
It makes sense that the British manufacutred guns would make their way there Down Under.
He'd also confirmed the entire spectrum of Gecado's from the Model 15 thru the 75 had been sold there.
The depth of complications within all the Diana models and lines, sold 'round the world sometimes boggles the mind,eh?
ZVP
