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Folks;
I found my old Winchester 427 (09/70) - it's been sitting in a wet 'mud' room in my brother's basement for over ten years. Needless to say it was in pretty bad shape. I've decided to rebuild it personally and most of my knowledge about how to go about this has been gleaned from reading this forum over the past few weeks. Needless to say, I have many questions.
I've built my own spring compressor. After reading everything I could find about them the options seemed to be 'build it yourself' or buy a B-square. I built mine by holding a 36" ratcheting clamp in two vises, along with a 1" pipe clamp to hold the cylinder. The pipe clamp is held to the base of the ratcheting clamp with two strips of plywood (bolted on). This provides support and height for the cylinder and serves simultaneously as a hold-down. I fitted an old socket (of the right size) to the head of the screw clamp with grommets ('backwards' - using the 'wrong end' to make contact with the trigger housing).
After reading about the dangers of opening that end-cap either with or without a spring compressor I covered the entire assembly in a heavy towel (to catch flying parts), held my breath, compressed the trigger housing, and drifted out the retaining pins. Then I slowly let the pressure off.
I was expecting some sort of explosion, but to my surprise the entire assembly slid out very smoothly and stopped after about four inches. No explosion, no flying parts. The entire thing disassembled very easily.
I now have the rifle entirely disassembled and now the work begins, and so do my questions. I've found the Chambers sight for parts and diagrams. Are there any other suppliers of parts? The leather seal in surprisingly good shape but the companion leather washer is almost disintegrated. Are there any good options for seals other than factory parts? For that matter, are there any good options for parts (pistions, spring guides, etc.) other than factory parts? I've found the Maccari site for springs, but what about the rest of the power plant?
The interior of the cylinder is very dirty - looks like some rust. How should I go about reconditioning it? I don't want to alter the dimensions or affect performance in other ways by polishing the inside incorrectly. Any ideas about this?
The exterior is going to have to be entirely refinished (bluing, refinishing stock). After reading about it all (and trying to find local gunsmiths who will work on air rifles) it seems that my option for bluing is 'do it yourself'. Has anybody used Van's Blue/Black over Perma Blue? It seems to me that this might work.
This is going to be a long slow process as I learn to go about it (hopefully without destroying the rifle in the process). All the help you all can provide is greatly appreciated.
1.) Just get a new leather seal from Chambers. Once you've rebuilt, why have a reason to go into the gun for another 35 years LOL?
2.) You can use a Maccari Global Tarantula XL small spring in that gun quite effectively.
3.) You can clean the tube by using maroon JM synthetic steel wool pads wrapped around a dowell and then chucking the assembly up in a drill. I use die cutting oil on the pad and then spin it inside the receiver tube with the drill. You'll be surprised at how much gunk this method cleans from inside the receiver tube.
4.) Just my suggestiion, but if you're going to consider home bluing I'd get some OXPHO BLUE and blue the gun using a torch to heat the metal and accelerate the process.
Knobs, thanks for the reply. I'd pretty much come to the conclusion that getting original parts from Chambers would probably be the best idea, and I've ordered the whole kit.
I found an article by Charlie Da Tuna that suggests refurbing a cylinder interior using sand paper and a cylinder hone (220 grit) for the compression chamber to provide cross-hatching. I'll probably clean it up a bit with steel wool first to get major gunk out then hone it.
The bluing seems to be the big problem. Nobody has anything nice to say about cold blues, but I can't find any professionals around here who want to blue an air rifle. This seems peculiar to me (money is, after all, money), but it's starting to look like I might have to do this myself. I've read a little about 200-300 degree 'home' Parkerizing and it sorta seems to be a better alternative than cold bluing. Know anything about it?
........but if I was going to reblue a gun I'd send it out to Randy Bimrose or someone like that for a professional hot blue. Preparation is a major part in blueing, and it depends on how rough the gun is as to howw much prep needs to be done. Since airgunnners don't typically spend as much on their guns as firearms guys do. you may be fighting an uphill battle in talking to typical firearms guys. Find an airgunner who reblues.
If you're hellbent on doing it yourself, you can get decent results using OXPHOBLUE and a torch and some steel wool. You won't get the deep blueing typical on a WEbley but you will definitely blow Perma Blue out of the water. Perma Blue is dog****, to be brutally frank.
I've stripped the rifle down completely, acquired a JM spring, honed the cylinder, taken the old finish off the stock, removed the old blue/rust, and polished the exterior metal with 200/400/600 sandpaper and 02/00/0000 steel wool. The metal shines like a mirror.
I'm extremely tempted to try the bluing myself using Perma Blue paste and Van's Blue/Black, if for no other reason than gaining (possibly bad) experience. Do cold blues hurt the metal in any way? If it turns out badly will it effect the quality of a hot blue later?
The beech stock is basically blonde wood. I've seen all sorts of suggestions for finishes, including dyeing the wood. Anybody got good results doing anything in particular?
The existing pistion needs polishing. How polished should this be? Most of the stuff I've read says 400 grit sandpaper. Will a higher polish serve any purpose (or hurt anything)?
The piston seems slightly bent down - that is the 'spring guide' that runs down the interior seems a bit pulled to one side rather than exactly centered (from 35 years of cocking). Does this piston need replacement or is it just 'settled in'?
Last (for now), I'm going to need some advice about lubing the interior of the piston and the real (bottom) spring guide inside and out.
2.) Chuck your piston in a drill. Turn slowly. Hold a magic marker such that it just touches the rear skirt as the piston turns. The black mark left shows where the high spot is. Bend by hand while chucked and repeat until you have two equal length black lines on opposite sides of the piston rear skirt. Note, a lot of piston skirts are out of round so you'll never get 360 degree contact with the marker. Periodically spin the chucked piston at high speed to get an idea of how the piston is balanced. The rest should become obvious during the process.
3.) Finishing Beech. If you're not an experienced wood finisher, get something to practise on. Find local help if at all possible. Beech splotches easily. This is a technique intensive project, which can't be taught on the net. It is easy once you have it figured out, but you're going to have to make some mistakes before you get it, unless you're just plain lucky. I recommend you read Bob Flexners "Understanding Wood Finishing" prior to moving forward here. Good luck. Be warned, practise before trying anything on your stock. I can't emphasize that enough.
4.) Which spring are you fitting to the gun? I think JM's site has instrucions on how to apply lubes. No need to lube inside the piston.
You're right about the wood. I found the book you mentioned widely quoted by just about everybody who deals with wood restoration.
Events are conspiring to make me think about having the bluing and woodwork done professionally again. I'd really like to finish the project before Christmas, but my bluing plans are going haywire. Shooter Solution's has not sent my Van's Blue/Black order yet (they're about 10 days later than expected), just have a recording at their number, and have not responded to my inquiry. Does anybody know anything about these folks? THey're starting to seem pretty fly by nite. Hopefully, they will not fail to respond by tommorrow.
If I don't get the Van's for experimentation, I'll have it blued professionally.
The woodworking is another matter. Based on eerything I've seen, refinishing Beech in an interesting way can be pretty ticky. Of course, I could just use regular old Gun Finish Brown and work on this another time.
Well, the Shooter's Solution people has resolved their delivery problem, so it looks like I'll blue the metal myself after all. I'm settling on a mahogany finish for the stock. New quaestion. The Maccari spring, after setting, is about an inch shorter than the old spring. Is this normal or did I overdo the setting?
In the old days of the Diana 25/27/35/50, Feinwerkbau 124/127, Walther LG 51/53/55 etc., thin wire springs and thin lubes were used to get smooth cocking and firing characteristics with adequate power.
Current wisdom is to use heavier gauge wire to get more power, often with less preload and use tight guides and tar to dampen vibration.
Even Diana has gone to heavier wire in replacement springs for the old 35 and 50 series rifles.
Mr. Macarri's springs are usually heavier gauge and shorter than factory original.
Many shooters and tuners swear by them.
If I ever run out of old inventory from ARH, Beeman, and Gibbs, I intend to try his offerings.
The Maccari springs are not designed to add more power to the airgun, just consistency and thus accuracy. With a Maccari mainspring changeover, all harshness in firing an air rifle springer goes away. After several thou pellets set the Maccari spring, you may find that power has been consistent ans will velocity, apparently. All in all, the Maccari spring bring the best out of a springer, in whichever way you look at it. As I have used Maccari mainsprings with Maccari Heavy Tar (Black) lube, I can testify that the two work perfectly together.
I have yet to try other tuning tricks offered by Maccari, but I leave that to other -- more knowledgable -- users to enlighten us up (Apex seals, spring guides and the like).
......the spring should work fine as is. There will probably be about 3/8" of space remaining which you can use to add power by placing washers under the rear of the spring on the rear guide. You may not get anything doing this however. I lost 15 fps when adding this spacing in my 27.
Your Global Tarantula XL small should set to about 9 1/2" total length.
The Maccari spring is exactly 9.5 inches after setting. Thanks. Now you folks have me wondering about tar etc.
A substantial portion of the spring sits in the piston (and presumably uncoils inside it). Another substantial portion of the spring uncoils along the exterior of the rear spring guide. The piston has a 'piston spring guide' protrouding out of it (down the middle) that sits inside the rear spring guide when cocked, shoots out of it when firing, and about which the spring also uncoils. So, the question is, how should this thing be lubed?
The spring sits pretty tight inside the pistion and is undoubtably going to make serious contact with the interior piston walls during firing. At the same time, the 'piston guide' is clearly going to be in contact with the interior of the rear spring guide for a good part of the piston travel.
I've read tons of stuff about appropriate lubing, but it seems like this design is considerably different than those usually discussed. Should the part of the spring in the piston be molyed, tarred, or what? Should the interior of the rear spring guide (or alternately, the 'piston spring guide' that sits inside it) be lubed at all, and agein, with what?
Sorry about being such a neophyte. Even though I'm doing the work on this as a practical matter everything I do is pretty much by the direction of the folks in here. In consequence, I've decided to let all of you decide what finish should be on the stock. What do you all prefer? I'll count the votes after a week or so.
Just wanted to say that I received a call today from Jonathan Doege, the man who markets Van's Blue/Black stuff. He apologized for the delay in my order (apparently there was really bad weather up there) and was extremely helpful with suggestions about how to go about the bluing process.
If Van's is what they say it is, it might be the remedy for 'cold blue blues'. I'll recieve my order in a few days and try it out. I'll let you folks know about my results.
It took me awhile to get it right, but Van's Instant Gun Blue is incredible stuff. I blued this Winchester 427 multiple times using just about every cold bluing product I could find with unsatisfactory results.
I ordered a small bottle (4 oz I think) of Van's just to check it out. It takes a bit of experimenting to get it right, but this stuff really truly works once you get the hang of applying it.
I did small parts (end cap, trigger gard, front sight, screws, etc.) first. They blackened (and I mean black black) immediately. I let them soak for about half an hour just for good measure. They're perfect.
Then I did the barrel and cylinder. Here I made a major mistake. I didn't have enough of the stuff to waste it, so I attempted to apply the Van's using a samll mix of other bluing paste to hold it in place. The bluing came out pretty spotty.
I unblued the cylinder and barrel, repolished them (up to 600 grit dry), and ordered a quart of Van's. It finally arrived yesterday. I used a ceramic toilet lid as a pan and immersed the barrel for about 30 minutes. One of the tricks here is to ocassionally 'polish' the metal surface while it's immersed with a toothbrush (or appropriate gloves). Keeping the metal in contact with reasonable fresh solution is important, but you also need to let the stuff work sitting still too. I just brushed the metal six or seven times over the course of 30 minutes. The result was pretty astounding.
The Van's not only turned the barrel black black black, it also managed to cover some minor pitting I couldn't get out.
This is an entirely unsolicited testimonial. This stuff is truly what you need to use to blue if you want to do it yourself. I've ordered two more quarts of it to use on a lot of other stuff as well.
Thanks for the interesting post! I too have used Van's with excellent results on small components--never done a whole gun though!.
Brownell's Oxpho-Blue is a very similar product. I have a friend who has achieved countless gorgeous resurrections of clapped-out airguns using this stuff.